Post AThvb7CLCGAr5vZj4y by Mordko@mastodon.sdf.org
(DIR) More posts by Mordko@mastodon.sdf.org
(DIR) Post #ATfiX72QA7jvigmCtU by bad_immigrant@chaos.social
2023-03-16T09:59:15Z
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Defeat of #Russia in #Ukraine is an essential to key any anti-militarist struggle around the world. As long as russian state exists as it is, it will always be used by militarists to justify their own expansion. #Antimilitarism #Anarchism
(DIR) Post #ATfiX7ibdHU3pWVteC by specktator_@kafeneio.social
2023-03-16T11:35:50Z
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@bad_immigrant I would primarily *add* that "Defeat of US in Ukraine..." that would *actually* be an essential key of any ani-militarist struggle *around* the world.
(DIR) Post #ATfl1quKNvqwZqmDGC by bad_immigrant@chaos.social
2023-03-16T12:03:44Z
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@specktator_ Check your notes, US is not fighting in Ukraine, but supports out of it's own interest Ukrainian state.
(DIR) Post #ATfm1fPLEzZIril5cG by specktator_@kafeneio.social
2023-03-16T12:14:59Z
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@bad_immigrant I always check my notes. If one party should be blamed and "defeated" in the domain of producing and/or provoking and/or conducting "wars around the world" that is the US, by far. We could easily add Russia on that but we should not shift focus off of the main player on that domain. Plus, the US is not "helping". They provoked the war, and then helping continue the war for their own interests.
(DIR) Post #ATfm73fAUIgXXWjRei by specktator_@kafeneio.social
2023-03-16T12:15:58Z
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@bad_immigrant >> Either there are two victims and one aggressor or two aggressors and one victim on this story. The first victim is always Ukraine. All other scenarios are, more or less, debatable.
(DIR) Post #ATfncaDhajNZRdTtRo by boud@framapiaf.org
2023-03-16T12:32:48Z
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@specktator_ @bad_immigrantThe sources overwhelmingly agree that RU invaded UA in 2014, and launched a full-scale invasion on 24 Feb 2022.Priority: RU withdrawal from UA.What you 2 could, hopefully, agree on is that the proposed special tribunal for the #CrimeOfAgression [1] should deal with *both* the US invasion of Iraq [2] *and* the RU invasion of UA.Which organisations are campaigning for this?@AI_GhanaGermany @amnestynantes[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_international_tribunal_for_the_crime_of_aggression_%28Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine%29[2] https://theintercept.com/2023/03/15/iraq-war-where-are-they-now
(DIR) Post #ATfpszXBRQJyUsXrs0 by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-03-16T12:57:56.216074Z
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@specktator_By claiming that “US provoked the war” you’re not only denying Ukrainians any subjectivity, treating them like some brainless pawns gamed by “true rulers of the world”, but you are also denying any subjectivity to Russian leadership, treating them as brainless savages who can be trivially provoked to take up a fight they are doomed to lose, like a lowest street thug.No, US did not provoke the war. It was Russia who aggressively pushed its completely unjustified and illegal interests in Ukraine for years even before 2014, and then consistently escalated its pressure to force 40 millions of Ukrainians into submission. Facing consistent opposition, Russia further escalated it to annex of Crimea and start the war in Donbass, hoping it will result in Ukrainians surrendering. In 2022 Putin believed he will just repeat his Crimean success but he failed miserably due to his own cognitive biases and systemic failures of Russian governance.EU and US were consistently supporting Ukraine, because that’s the only thing to do if you believe in international law and rules-based order rather than brute force, as Putin does. @bad_immigrant
(DIR) Post #ATfrPvN62Tbv655vKS by bad_immigrant@chaos.social
2023-03-16T13:15:21Z
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@specktator_ Russia started the war of conquest for imperial project (Putin made clear why this war started in his historical view of the region). US is responsible for many wars in the world, but it doesn't mean that it is responsible for every war in this world.
(DIR) Post #ATfssU6Ec9SQrnOF6W by specktator_@kafeneio.social
2023-03-16T13:31:46Z
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@bad_immigrant Indeed but who benefits more from it? The one who benefits more from it is the one who helps continue it and is (simultaneously) the one who's converting whole countries to a protectorate, after first invading them with false accusations or undermining peace with joined forces since the late '40s.Of course they are not responsible for every war. But if we stick to the numbers they are responsible of building an empire out of the majority of the wars in recent history.
(DIR) Post #ATfvw7CnyXW6snt07s by specktator_@kafeneio.social
2023-03-16T14:06:02Z
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@kravietz I won't even deal with the 1st paragraph because you jum conclusion and just reversing things.The 2nd paragraph has facts in it except the fact that US also had a part on this era too, for their own interests ofc. These are public data now, you can check them.For the last part: this is how you deal as an empire/ruler. International law doesn't exist for the US and some of its allies. The majority of the wars they conducted since the 40s is equally "illegal" too.@bad_immigrant
(DIR) Post #ATfwUtzx4Vt43ZSh3g by specktator_@kafeneio.social
2023-03-16T14:12:19Z
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@boud We MUST agree on this one or there's no room for a discussion since we choose which aggressor is the best for us 😉 . One that is a serial aggressor and one smaller thug, if we compare them. @bad_immigrant @AI_GhanaGermany @amnestynantes
(DIR) Post #ATfwkDJFYUCeIEn0OO by dicksteel@kolektiva.social
2023-03-16T14:15:03Z
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@specktator_ @bad_immigrant Putin literally compared himself to the czar when invading Ukraine. It's an imperial invasion that has killed hundreds of thousands of people. Russia made it clear that any attempt of independence or any truce that brings a ceasefire by giving away territories will only bring further oppression in the future. People in Ukraine understand this that's why they fight, many anarchists fight for Ukraine for the same reason. Why mention the US when OP didn't? Blaming US/Ukraine for the war is the political equivalent of asking "but what was she wearing?" on an international level. It removes any responsibility from Russia. You would have agreed if Iraq or Palestine was attacked. What disease makes Greek leftists develop such a melted tankie brain?
(DIR) Post #ATfxkMSLeDrkcDgB0K by specktator_@kafeneio.social
2023-03-16T14:26:19Z
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@dicksteel No, the responsibility of Russia is for granted. > Why mention the US when OP didn't? Is the OP some kind of a king and we can't induct new aspects to a normal conversation?> What disease makes Greek leftists develop such a melted tankie brain?..and here is the insult of an already concluded guy who things he knows the international games, players and strategies more than the states themselves. Good luck with that beautiful brain of yours@bad_immigrant
(DIR) Post #ATfyxA8WrZpa7q4q1o by bad_immigrant@chaos.social
2023-03-16T14:39:49Z
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@specktator_ @boud @AI_GhanaGermany @amnestynantes Well sometimes we are forced into situation where we can team up with a smaller thug for survival of both. Russian occupation of the region is a threat of literal death to many comrades in the region or very long prison sentences.
(DIR) Post #ATg0E0aXiSbTOCmEJk by specktator_@kafeneio.social
2023-03-16T14:54:05Z
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@bad_immigrant The US is the smaller thug in our example? No dude, that's the emperor, that's the number one thug of the planet for 75-80 years now. We might like it or not but that's a fact. Any occupation behaves like that. That's not Russia's invention. If we are about to choose an aggressor whatsoever ... I wouldn't choose anyone. Maybe some people will but that comes with a price they are willing to pay to one thug instead of another.@boud @AI_GhanaGermany @amnestynantes
(DIR) Post #ATg0WhWioLCjlyu2ls by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-03-16T14:57:11.755868Z
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@specktator_US and EU have cooperated with Ukraine just as any other sovereign states do between them. Neither US nor EU ever invaded Ukraine by military means, nor conducted sabotage operations in Ukraine.Russia had very different style - long before the war they started an aggressive intimidation if a even small town in Poland or Ukraine would decide to renamed a street (!) named after some old forgotten Soviet leader. Another example are the infamous “biolabs” that Russia made huge drama about - what they did not mention was that not only US and EU funded these labs in any other country where a pandemic potential existed - including Russia (!) and Kazakhstan - but also Russia engaged in cooperation with these labs in Ukraine. As a matter of fact, Russia supplied the Ukrainian labs with particular bacteria and virus strains because that’s what cooperation in for perfectly legitimate research looks like.And after the war started, the same strains - supplied by Moscow institute - were published in Russian TV as an evidence that Ukraine worked on “biological weapons”, which was so stupid that even Russian scientists published an open letter debunking this nonsense.So if you’re now saying “US also had part on this era too”, then you’re completely distorting the character of the influence each block had over Ukraine. With US and EU it was cooperation based on international law and respect for Ukraine’s sovereignty, while Russia attitude to Ukraine was always colonial and based on intimidation and bullying.Not surprisingly, Ukrainians did not like this, which led to Euromaidan. @bad_immigrant
(DIR) Post #ATg0fExyMqKDngimBs by bad_immigrant@chaos.social
2023-03-16T14:58:59Z
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@specktator_ @boud @AI_GhanaGermany @amnestynantes Ukraine for ukrainian people is a smaller thug. US does not have political will to get involved directly in the war in #Ukraine. Main decisions are made still in Kyiv and ukrainian government is doing hell of a job putting pressure on so called first world governments to get what they want (weapons, sanctions and trainings)
(DIR) Post #ATg0i8XciCCWk5mH6u by dicksteel@kolektiva.social
2023-03-16T14:59:29Z
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@specktator_ @bad_immigrant Literally this
(DIR) Post #ATg1v2vczWmn3Mj1H6 by specktator_@kafeneio.social
2023-03-16T15:13:04Z
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@dicksteel yeah sure. @bad_immigrant
(DIR) Post #AThUY3dTHty4PmaCbQ by boud@framapiaf.org
2023-03-16T19:43:11Z
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@kravietz It's inaccurate to say that "the US ... believe[s] in international law and rules-based order rather than brute force". It's rather that massive grassroots organising, world wide protests (15 Feb 2003), better information distribution and legal risks (International Criminal Court) have made it politically a lot more risky for the US to use brute force in violation of international law in the last few decades.The bully is constrained, not reformed.@bad_immigrant @specktator_
(DIR) Post #AThUY4CZBQ2aAd0EIy by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-03-17T08:08:19.592196Z
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@boudTrue, but whatever works. US has free press, political opposition and hosts a number of international organizations — Russia has none of these constraints.@bad_immigrant @specktator_
(DIR) Post #AThXAVwsfW6F8f7vCS by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-03-17T08:37:38.426909Z
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@specktator_Oh, if you’re Greek then you’ll be certainly pleased to learn that Greece has a number of research biolabs, such as National School of Public Health http://www.nsph.gr who cooperate with European Centre for Disease Prevention and Control in conducting research on various epidemic subjects, just like the Ukrainian (and Russian) laboratories cooperated, until Russia invaded Ukraine and presented this cooperation as something nefarious. @dicksteel @bad_immigrant
(DIR) Post #AThXTrXsb37Vccetpg by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-03-17T08:41:09.623796Z
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@specktator_ And here’s the open letter signed by 800+ Russian scientists in March 2022, calling the official Putin’s narrative of “biological weapons” a bullshit, based on the very “evidence” published by Russian media. As we’re approaching an anniversary of this miserable fake, I think it’s worth recalling it:The first Russian biologist to make his analysis of the evidence widely known was Eugene Lewitin, who holds advanced degrees in biology from Moscow State University and GosNIIgenetika, a biotechnology research institute. The documents from Ukraine, Lewitin wrote in an open letter posted on Facebook and Change.org, do “not imply any development of biological weapons or even the use of particularly dangerous pathogens in the laboratories. The list of destroyed strains published by RIA Novosti and other Russian media outlets contains not a single particularly dangerous strain. The list contains only strains common to microbiological and even more so to epidemiological laboratories.” More than 800 signatories endorsed Lewitin’s letter when it was transformed into a petition from Russian biologists urging Russian journalists to stop repeating the government’s “false, absolutely groundless and hatred-inciting statements about allegedly found evidence of the development of biological weapons in Ukrainian laboratories.”https://theintercept.com/2022/03/17/russia-ukraine-bioweapons-misinformation/#Russia #Ukraine #bioweapons #biolabs@bad_immigrant @dicksteel
(DIR) Post #AThbFdePrKQiI7BmIC by UT3UMS@mastodon.radio
2023-03-17T09:21:31Z
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@kravietz @bad_immigrant @specktator_ @dicksteel > Russian journalists to stop repeating government's narrative Sounds naïve to me. There is nothing but gov's propaganda machine there. No single "journalist"
(DIR) Post #AThbH4tk2YZT5Q2m2K by clacke@libranet.de
2023-03-17T09:13:36Z
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@kravietz @bad_immigrant @dicksteel @specktator_ The most tragic part of this misinformation campaign is the puppets in the US who swallow and regurgitate these Russian fabrications.
(DIR) Post #AThbmY7hQpzChgZy9w by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-03-17T09:29:20.319171Z
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@UT3UMS Lewiting, writing this from inside of Russia, must have had to comply with the convention of political correctness, where you talk about Russian authorities as actual, legitimate elected ones, and of media as of actually engaging in journalism. Otherwise it would be too easy for everyone to dismiss him as “yet another liberast” and ignore his argument completely.By the way, note the number of people in Russia who signed his petition - less than 1400 🤦♂️@bad_immigrant @specktator_ @dicksteel
(DIR) Post #ATheTBBom2mPw8xdNg by UT3UMS@mastodon.radio
2023-03-17T09:59:43Z
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@specktator_ @bad_immigrant provoking the war, that started before the US even existed? Man, you'r a joke
(DIR) Post #AThhdDWHGWq7vC0afY by UT3UMS@mastodon.radio
2023-03-17T09:54:42Z
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@kravietz @bad_immigrant @specktator_ @dicksteel I mean, aren't things already fucked up? I don't think a patition might change something on russia? What the purpose though? Manifest one's statement against the propaganda? That's a good move. But anyway, when someone relys on democratic instruments in russia that's just make me smile
(DIR) Post #AThhdEI8Ob7YJcOoGO by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-03-17T10:34:49.487289Z
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@UT3UMS Well, I can’t judge for the author but I assume he was just shocked by the level of bullshit that was used to justify the war by his government and simply voiced his outrage this way. Whether this is going to change anything or not, is a different story. Will it prevent Simonyan from publishing such nonsense? No way. Will it impact reception of this nonsense by at least some of Russians? That’s quite likely.@bad_immigrant @specktator_ @dicksteel
(DIR) Post #AThphLcRtQBfpjNMHI by Mordko@mastodon.sdf.org
2023-03-17T12:01:48Z
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@UT3UMS @kravietz @bad_immigrant @specktator_ @dicksteel we have no idea about the level of support Kemlin has within Russia. Polls are worthless because people are intimidated. Everyone raising voice against regime’s lies is playing a vital role.
(DIR) Post #AThpjhTHcNbeBaD6GG by Mordko@mastodon.sdf.org
2023-03-17T12:03:46Z
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@kravietz @bad_immigrant @specktator_ @dicksteel this stupid lie is still popular in the developing world and among Kemlin’s fellow travellers in the west
(DIR) Post #AThpjqJKkjzlbKcmVE by UT3UMS@mastodon.radio
2023-03-17T12:03:42Z
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@Mordko @kravietz @bad_immigrant @specktator_ @dicksteel well, I don't argue with that. But I find "petitions" and other democracy cargo-cult remains in russia to be a bit outfated anti-regime warfare nowadays.
(DIR) Post #AThrdwWcw1EV2t9mls by Mordko@mastodon.sdf.org
2023-03-17T12:25:59Z
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@kravietz @bad_immigrant @specktator_ @dicksteel @UT3UMS he was under no illusions about Russian “journalists” and openly said so. Read the last paragraph. https://tjournal.ru/flood/560201-mikrobiolog-iz-mgu-ob-obvineniyah-v-adres-ukrainy-v-sozdanii-biologicheskogo-oruzhiya
(DIR) Post #AThs3tHLcy3CVRNnqC by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-03-17T12:31:43.847248Z
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@Mordko I recall one large podcast with an anthropologist from Russia on Meduza last year where she discussed detailed methods. It's difficult but not impossible and mostly involves asking indirect questions, and not using phone polls, which are more stressful for the respondents.Here's one such poll, just published by Russian Field.@UT3UMS @bad_immigrant @specktator_ @dicksteel
(DIR) Post #ATht2w7zeIY50V7HFY by Mordko@mastodon.sdf.org
2023-03-17T12:08:03Z
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@UT3UMS @kravietz @bad_immigrant @specktator_ @dicksteel thats an interesting way of putting it.Here is another example of “anti-regime cargo cult”. https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/white-rose
(DIR) Post #ATht2wgNaS3Qj9Cjqa by UT3UMS@mastodon.radio
2023-03-17T12:21:22Z
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@Mordko @kravietz @bad_immigrant @specktator_ @dicksteel that's actually what russia opposition is aiming for - to look like a victim. So please, in respect to all the jewish people, don't compare current russian political activists to jews.
(DIR) Post #ATht3AKCrgdX2QwEEK by Mordko@mastodon.sdf.org
2023-03-17T12:27:22Z
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@UT3UMS @kravietz @bad_immigrant @specktator_ @dicksteel you are confused. White Rose was made up of Germans. As it happens, Evgeny Levitin is Jewish. You got this the wrong way around.
(DIR) Post #ATht3Amv8vbaTUN9zE by UT3UMS@mastodon.radio
2023-03-17T12:30:19Z
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@Mordko @kravietz @bad_immigrant @specktator_ @dicksteel I guess you got me wrong. I am not saying that Levitin is doing something bad or blaiming him. I've just seen to many of such "open letters" since 2014, when the war started. And nothing changed. My friends and relative in russia are good to go with any kind of bulshit they are offered with from the TV or "opposition"Russians have a good proverb to describe such things. It's a frat to the puddle. Sounds loud but has no effort.
(DIR) Post #ATht4PHMkd7HhvCXzc by UT3UMS@mastodon.radio
2023-03-17T12:37:12Z
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@kravietz @bad_immigrant @specktator_ @dicksteel @Mordko It just looks like russian "opposition" chooses the most comic and toothless ways to manifest their statements. "petitions", t-shirts that are not being shipped to russia. "no war" tattoos with censored letters. Looks like it's a fancy trend to them, not an idea or something
(DIR) Post #AThtBjH2oEcNkOXhWS by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-03-17T12:44:25.610409Z
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@MordkoHaving found and read the full Russian Field poll results, I actually find it very interesting in terms of both methodology and resultshttps://russianfield.com/godsvo@UT3UMS @bad_immigrant @dicksteel @specktator_
(DIR) Post #AThvb7CLCGAr5vZj4y by Mordko@mastodon.sdf.org
2023-03-17T12:37:46Z
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@UT3UMS @kravietz @bad_immigrant @specktator_ @dicksteel open protesters are too few and far between. Its very hard to make a real difference from within a paranoid totalitarian country. Russian prisons are filled with letter-writers; others lost jobs and livelihoods. Ukrainians were in a similar position once. Don’t recall too many protesting in 1968 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1968_Red_Square_demonstration
(DIR) Post #AThvb7nYxrwqxMzS64 by UT3UMS@mastodon.radio
2023-03-17T12:42:50Z
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@Mordko @kravietz @bad_immigrant @specktator_ @dicksteel you don't recall Ukrainian protests, as they were classified by KGB. Same as mass accidents. Go check anti-ussr clashes before WWII, as doc's were recently declassified. https://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A1%D0%B5%D0%BB%D1%8F%D0%BD%D1%81%D1%8C%D0%BA%D1%96_%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%B2%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%BD%D1%8F_1929%E2%80%941932the last Ukrainian insurgent army bunker was eliminated in mid 1950.
(DIR) Post #AThvb89Xe9Ws3XH0M4 by Mordko@mastodon.sdf.org
2023-03-17T12:43:36Z
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@UT3UMS @kravietz @bad_immigrant @specktator_ @dicksteel but I think its more than tokenism. People speaking up are risking their freedom and lives. Literally. And words can be surprisingly powerful. 1968 Res Square demonstration inspired a whole movement of dissidents. And regime fell when time was ripe.
(DIR) Post #AThwiTZkUnsoTjb8YS by Mordko@mastodon.sdf.org
2023-03-17T12:48:05Z
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@UT3UMS @kravietz @bad_immigrant @specktator_ @dicksteel yes, of course but UPA was defeated with a big help from Ukrainians. And there were decades with USSR occupying and invading other countries after 1950. Ukrainians were very much part of every invasion; same as other other Soviet citizens.
(DIR) Post #AThwiUD68VMIRm0Yt6 by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-03-17T13:23:51.837183Z
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@MordkoThat "UPA was defeated with a big help of Ukrainians" is a bit of oversimplification. If you look from this angle, Polish soldiers also participated in USSR conquests when Poland was in Eastern Bloc such as invasion in Czechoslovakia in 1968. Polish army actually also participated in the pacification of protests in the same Poland in 1980's. And Polish army also suppressed Polish army in Poland after 1946 well until end of 1940's — it's just that one was Polish army under Soviet command, derived from Armia Ludowa, and the other was actual Polish army derived from Armia Krajowa, NSZ etc.But it was obvious for everyone who was Polish army and who was occupational forces, and conscription was mandatory.@UT3UMS @bad_immigrant @specktator_ @dicksteel
(DIR) Post #AThwkDN3iPu6neUWlk by Mordko@mastodon.sdf.org
2023-03-17T12:57:45Z
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@kravietz @bad_immigrant @specktator_ @dicksteel @UT3UMS please listen to this story. From vegetarian times (2000). https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dKi4qSlMKh8
(DIR) Post #AThwkDsbp78oNVFiwi by UT3UMS@mastodon.radio
2023-03-17T13:01:32Z
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@Mordko @kravietz @bad_immigrant @specktator_ @dicksteel oh, notorious Shenderovich. Man I won't be watching this, ok? That's just the same imperial bullshit but for russian wokies.
(DIR) Post #AThwkENRyRoLv9gM1A by Mordko@mastodon.sdf.org
2023-03-17T13:06:33Z
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@UT3UMS @kravietz @bad_immigrant @specktator_ @dicksteel “imperial”? You are confused.
(DIR) Post #AThwkEulyYSxaVGxxQ by UT3UMS@mastodon.radio
2023-03-17T13:10:09Z
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@Mordko @kravietz @bad_immigrant @specktator_ @dicksteel It's funny, as I think you are confused. Man, you are trying to show me a pathetic russian talking head, speaking on Ukrainain history. And at the same time, Shenderovich is known for blaiming Ukrainians a nazis (what a well known imperial propaganda narrative, isn't it?). Do you believe I'll take his words on history of my land seriously?
(DIR) Post #AThwkFSRxLP9Gx1rRw by Mordko@mastodon.sdf.org
2023-03-17T13:19:52Z
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@UT3UMS @kravietz @bad_immigrant @specktator_ @dicksteel Shenderovich did not claim “Ukrainians were Nazis”. Thats just false. There were fascist Nazi collaborators in Ukraine; absolutely. Thats all he said. Same as in other countries but unfortunately modern state is whitewashing them. Here is another “Russian imperialist” prof Snyder https://www.nybooks.com/online/2010/02/24/a-fascist-hero-in-democratic-kiev/
(DIR) Post #AThwkFwa9JVWmP7vPs by UT3UMS@mastodon.radio
2023-03-17T13:23:47Z
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@Mordko @kravietz @bad_immigrant @specktator_ @dicksteel there are russian collaborators in Ukraine right now and vice-versa. So what?
(DIR) Post #AThxZZ8GZBwr3o3flI by UT3UMS@mastodon.radio
2023-03-17T12:49:54Z
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@Mordko @kravietz @bad_immigrant @specktator_ @dicksteel > of course but UPA was defeated with a big help from UkrainiansWOW, no comments in here. > Ukrainians were very much part of every invasion; same as other other Soviet citizens.waht an arugment! I can say the same regarding the any other nation.
(DIR) Post #AThxZZkuFWrAze8WzQ by Mordko@mastodon.sdf.org
2023-03-17T13:01:52Z
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@UT3UMS @kravietz @bad_immigrant @specktator_ @dicksteel absolutely, you can. Thats my point.
(DIR) Post #AThxZaFOQBF8WCOsVc by UT3UMS@mastodon.radio
2023-03-17T13:04:12Z
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@Mordko @kravietz @bad_immigrant @specktator_ @dicksteel but this point is an induction, that may lead to a false statements. What's the point? Not to do anything as "everybody is wrong"? That's the aim of the propaganda actually - to put people in a zone of confusion and passiмшен
(DIR) Post #AThxZahOk3e1v3VFA0 by Mordko@mastodon.sdf.org
2023-03-17T13:11:50Z
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@UT3UMS @kravietz @bad_immigrant @specktator_ @dicksteel the point is that “Russians” are not inherently bad people. That those who speak out within a totalitarian state persecuting for “wrong” thoughts are heroic. And that they are to be supported. They may make a difference eventually. Might take time. Its the exact opposite of “do nothing”.
(DIR) Post #AThxZb7z9CubFVwTbM by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-03-17T13:33:27.188150Z
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@MordkoWhich Russians? As a globally present ethnic group — no. As subjects of the Russian state, living in Russia — in their majority they either support the war or don't give a shit, I'm not sure which one is worse.Note I'm not using excessive quantifiers such as "all Russians", but specifically speak about "majority", which is supported by evidence. And I don't really believe that moral categories such as "good" or "evil" have any descriptive value here.The only thing that matters is that the attitude of the majority of Russians over the last 20 years took us to a place where Putin started a war, and nobody stopped him.@UT3UMS @bad_immigrant @specktator_ @dicksteel
(DIR) Post #AThxb3a6qKsvmnnCvw by UT3UMS@mastodon.radio
2023-03-17T13:14:59Z
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@Mordko @kravietz @bad_immigrant @specktator_ @dicksteel > Might take timeputin is stearing for 20+ yeras, OK let's wait for 20 years more. I guess those letters might take some effect then
(DIR) Post #AThy8sPItZF4yXrgjA by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-03-17T13:39:54.644402Z
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@MordkoAlso, you're making a mistake talking about the totalitarian state as it was built overnight. It wasn't. Putin was cutting freedoms and laws in Russia gradually since 1999.And majority either supported it or was not giving a shit.I posted it already a few days ago — the largest 2011-2012 protests in Russia gathered 160k people of 140m country over a few days. That, in response to the largest power grab in Russian history! Do you need any other evidence of majority not giving a shit about your future?For comparison, 2013-2014 Euromaidan gathered over 1m people who came from the whole 40m country, and stood for 3 months, clearly demonstrating they do give as shit about their future.@UT3UMS @bad_immigrant @specktator_ @dicksteel
(DIR) Post #AThyDhAm5kHTa4Mo5o by UT3UMS@mastodon.radio
2023-03-17T13:15:41Z
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@Mordko @kravietz @bad_immigrant @specktator_ @dicksteel > the point is that “Russians” are not inherently bad peoplesure thing, I just don't wan't to be trying them out. To many of my friends/relatives from russia suddenly appeared to wish me death and elimination on Feb 24th 2022. I am not saying all russians are bad or good. Just disappointed in personal observations. And I just don't want to be figuring that out. Ok? Let them live peacfully and happily in their own swamp
(DIR) Post #AThyDhiS4XDfGW7haK by Mordko@mastodon.sdf.org
2023-03-17T13:21:39Z
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@UT3UMS @kravietz @bad_immigrant @specktator_ @dicksteel yes, thats how fascism works. Way too many Russians succumbed to fascism. But many did not. No country is immune.
(DIR) Post #AThyDiTbFEvvckBM4e by UT3UMS@mastodon.radio
2023-03-17T13:23:11Z
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@Mordko @kravietz @bad_immigrant @specktator_ @dicksteel yeah, fascism, ruscism - whatever you call it, ok. What's next? Should we forgive russians or what? Should we give up?
(DIR) Post #AThyDj1zBORHLOGofg by Mordko@mastodon.sdf.org
2023-03-17T13:29:37Z
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@UT3UMS @kravietz @bad_immigrant @specktator_ @dicksteel I think its important to fight for “hearts and minds” too. And logical arguments like by a Moscow microbiologist are a big part of it
(DIR) Post #AThyLCYFpCMCvXvckS by Mordko@mastodon.sdf.org
2023-03-17T13:34:03Z
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@kravietz @bad_immigrant @specktator_ @dicksteel @UT3UMS yes, its oversimplification but not by much. In late 40s UPA was killing Ukrainian Kolhoz peasants as “collaborators”. At a certain point it was seen as an enemy and local population turned on them. There is some superficial similarity with Armiya Krajova but not really. Its too big of a subject for social media.
(DIR) Post #AThyLD6dlLrYeC15LU by Mordko@mastodon.sdf.org
2023-03-17T13:38:26Z
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@kravietz @bad_immigrant @specktator_ @dicksteel @UT3UMS my point though does apply to Poland too. When we condemn “Russians” we must remember that how hard it is to oppose totalitarian regimes from within the country.
(DIR) Post #AThyLDiZUKCiXplNT6 by UT3UMS@mastodon.radio
2023-03-17T13:41:29Z
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@Mordko @kravietz @bad_immigrant @specktator_ @dicksteel Actually it's russia, who denies dirty pages of own hsitory and whitewashing themselves. Sure thing UPA and Armiya Krajova did bad things even to each other. I admit this, but I barly has anythything to do with that. I only can stand against repiting such things. UPA and AK clashes are not affecting me and e.g @kravietz having a good time in the internets in 2023. Not the history defines today, but the relation to that history.
(DIR) Post #AThyb9ppgz458Sl7xI by Mordko@mastodon.sdf.org
2023-03-17T13:41:10Z
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@kravietz @bad_immigrant @specktator_ @dicksteel @UT3UMS True. And when we say “nobody” lets give an honorable mention to European politicians and businessmen who INCREASED imports of hydrocarbons from Russia AFTER 2014 to help fund Putin’s oppression and mass murder.
(DIR) Post #AThybASpM0Fz5P0Gjg by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-03-17T13:44:59.746532Z
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@MordkoNo dispute here between us, I was ranting about Germany anti-nuclear fanaticism and increased dependence on Russian hydrocarbons even before 2014 ;)@bad_immigrant @specktator_ @dicksteel @UT3UMS
(DIR) Post #AThzSYcsFb2NN5A1wG by kravietz@agora.echelon.pl
2023-03-17T13:54:38.494923Z
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@UT3UMSI fully share this approach — I don't believe in collective responsibility, especially for past events.The problem with UPA was that they fought for ethnically pure country, which logically implies ethnic purges, which they did. In Poland an equivalent of UPA was NSZ which was involved in ethnic purges among Belarussian minorities and tactical cooperation with Germans against Soviets. Both were antisemitic too.AK wasn't involved in either and in the period we're talking about (past 1945) it was already disbanded on the orders of the Polish government on exile, which it represented. @Mordko @bad_immigrant @specktator_ @dicksteel
(DIR) Post #ATi820Zd8Ikvon3hUO by Mordko@mastodon.sdf.org
2023-03-17T14:06:57Z
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@kravietz @bad_immigrant @specktator_ @dicksteel @UT3UMS AK never collaborated with Germans. They killed Polish collaborators. And ideologically it fought for democrstic rather than fascist Poland. It didn’t have a fuhrer. Of course AK wasn’t made up of angels but fundamentally it was completely different from OUN/UPA.
(DIR) Post #ATi86xlH13U2XnrplA by UT3UMS@mastodon.radio
2023-03-17T14:46:40Z
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@kravietz @bad_immigrant @specktator_ @dicksteel @Mordko > The problem with UPA was that they fought for ethnically pure countryhugh.... it sounds like oversimplification to me, but let's put it aside. We're speaking of russians today :D
(DIR) Post #ATi89whnOncq8afAWW by Mordko@mastodon.sdf.org
2023-03-17T13:56:29Z
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@kravietz @bad_immigrant @specktator_ @dicksteel @UT3UMS yes. Germans shutting down nuclear was idiocy. And western appeasement in 2014 helped to undermine internal opposition within Russia. There was an expectation that Russia would have to pay for Putin’s imperialism with a massive economic penalty. It came to nothing. German politicians still legitimized Kremlin’s mafia. It demoralized Russian opposition.
(DIR) Post #ATi89xOKqdeYGWZ8pU by UT3UMS@mastodon.radio
2023-03-17T14:44:54Z
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@Mordko @kravietz @bad_immigrant @specktator_ @dicksteel unfortunately russian opposition is fake since 2010th. All really active members vere eliminated by putin. The rest is just a peacfull ragchewers left alive just to "let the steam off" through toothless twitter activism
(DIR) Post #ATi89xzYcFQY7xyrqa by Mordko@mastodon.sdf.org
2023-03-17T15:08:58Z
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@UT3UMS @kravietz @bad_immigrant @specktator_ @dicksteel this was 2021. Across Russia. Every city and town. People already knew they would be beaten up, fined and many thrown into prisons. https://www.bbc.com/russian/live/news-55857190
(DIR) Post #ATi89yXwYOvtqc4KRc by UT3UMS@mastodon.radio
2023-03-17T15:14:26Z
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@Mordko > Every city and townnot really> People already knew they would be beaten up, fined and many thrown into prisonsand they did nothing as well as others did nothing in responce afterwardsThat's exactly what @kravietz is talking about. No single fuck is given by a generic russian regarding the cinizenship things. By cinizenship I mean rights, obligations and involvement in a country life.
(DIR) Post #ATiJoR4H1vPtNtgcWe by chowderman@universeodon.com
2023-03-17T15:28:36Z
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@Mordko @dicksteel @specktator_ @kravietz @UT3UMS @bad_immigrant Oh 2014!Obama & Cameron shirked their responsibilities, Merkel & Sarkozy concentrated on short term interests.A year of shame, one that we are all paying the price for, nobody more than Ukraine.The year that convinced Putin & autocrats that might is right.The year that Putin showed his people that russia could be great again!
(DIR) Post #ATiJoRk6WOsRTdG1j6 by Mordko@mastodon.sdf.org
2023-03-17T16:09:37Z
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@chowderman @dicksteel @specktator_ @kravietz @UT3UMS @bad_immigrant Yes. The role western leaders played is underesestimsted. During GKChP it was touch and go. President Bush (senior) was on the radio, translated by the Voice of America. His words played a strong role of stiffening resistance against KGB putsch. In 2014 Obama said Ukraine is Russian neighbourhood and Russia will always be there.
(DIR) Post #ATiJoSBkrazkrOC6pE by chowderman@universeodon.com
2023-03-17T16:17:54Z
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@kravietz @dicksteel @Mordko @UT3UMS @bad_immigrant @specktator_ Obama mirrored the “Spheres of influence” language !?The same kind of language in the Secret Protocol of the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact !?They should have taken back his peace prize.
(DIR) Post #ATiJoSavM1807RyD3Y by Mordko@mastodon.sdf.org
2023-03-17T17:21:27Z
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@chowderman @kravietz @dicksteel @UT3UMS @bad_immigrant @specktator_ Exactly. Obama used “spheres of influence” language. He went further and called Ukraine “Russia’s client state” in 2016 (around 1 min mark) https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-obama-state-of-union-reference-puzzles-many/27486026.html
(DIR) Post #ATiJt8A0krugBxboMy by Mordko@mastodon.sdf.org
2023-03-17T15:03:53Z
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@kravietz @specktator_ @dicksteel @UT3UMS @UT3UMS in mid 1990s it was clear that Russia won’t be a democracy. Not Putin, would have been someone like him. There was longing for “hard hand” (dictator). That does not tell me % support for 2022 stalinist mafiosi in Kremlin and war against Ukraine. Different question. I think Poland also has a degree of support for anti-democratic measures but its not a threat to others
(DIR) Post #ATiJt8hKkyZHrJCQJE by UT3UMS@mastodon.radio
2023-03-17T15:08:16Z
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@Mordko @kravietz @specktator_ @dicksteel > in mid 1990s it was clear that Russia won’t be a democracy. in mid 90s it was clear than Ukraine won't be a democracy any better then in Russia. But history is unpredictable thing. It's very easy to objectify past events as if they were obvious. But they were not. I remember the times of medvedev as the feeling of possible liberalization in russia. Most Russians I've asked, agreed with this. It did not happend though.
(DIR) Post #ATiJt9PI7XjK3dlWpE by Mordko@mastodon.sdf.org
2023-03-17T16:01:54Z
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@UT3UMS @kravietz @specktator_ @dicksteel I left Russia in the early 90s. Was certain it won’t be a democracy. At the time it had free press and somewhat free elections. Thought Luzhkov was going to be the dictator so that I got wrong. Met a Ukrainian minister in late 90s (emergency preparedness). He was clearly an old KGB hand; corrupt, anti-west. There were good people in both countries but Russia had more Soviet bureaucracy.
(DIR) Post #ATiZ1LEXX3XOMm6HoG by chowderman@universeodon.com
2023-03-17T17:35:29Z
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@bad_immigrant @dicksteel @kravietz @UT3UMS @Mordko @specktator_ On one hand it was ridiculous to say: “Pouring in resources to support…” Putin was doing the reverse, supporting terrorists to undermine Ukraine.On the other hand, whilst imperfectly worded, one could interpret “…client states that they saw slipping away” as emphasising Ukraine was separate and HAD moved away.
(DIR) Post #ATieZc5hrWIUGX87yC by Mordko@mastodon.sdf.org
2023-03-17T21:19:10Z
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@chowderman @bad_immigrant @dicksteel @kravietz @UT3UMS @specktator_ “resources” as in shells and Russian army. Fundamentally Obama was an isolationist. Thats where his language really came from. In that respect Trump and Obama have more in common than people realize.
(DIR) Post #ATieZco1Clk6TxrW2S by Mordko@mastodon.sdf.org
2023-03-17T21:23:03Z
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@chowderman @bad_immigrant @dicksteel @kravietz @UT3UMS @specktator_ He expanded on it this in interview with Atlantic “As regards the two-year-old conflict between Ukraine and Russia, the president said Ukraine is a core interest for Moscow, in a way that it is not for the United States.” https://www.brookings.edu/blog/order-from-chaos/2016/03/18/the-obama-doctrine-and-ukraine/