Post ATanagNppaL44UTUu0 by paul_ipv6@infosec.exchange
(DIR) More posts by paul_ipv6@infosec.exchange
(DIR) Post #ATahUtliYKuE7eVKhU by seldo@alpaca.gold
2023-03-14T01:29:38Z
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Sing it with me folks, "there is no such thing as the fundamentals". This is just gatekeeping nonsense. https://toot.cafe/@slightlyoff/110017793139490791
(DIR) Post #ATahe30XZUfFNong1Y by seldo@alpaca.gold
2023-03-14T01:31:17Z
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Whatever is considered fundamental now will be considered a low level implementation detail 5 years from now. The things that are frameworks now will be the next fundamentals. It has happened a dozen times in my lifetime and it will keep happening. Learn what you need to get the job done and don't sweat the fundamentals.
(DIR) Post #ATahySqNDulbItmQwS by vance_maverick@zirk.us
2023-03-14T01:34:57Z
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@seldo but we'll always need to understand the abstractions we're building on. In that sense, building on "fundamentals" is real even if there's no stable set of them. (ex.: I don't think about disk heads any more, but I do think about the behavior the file system presents to my code)
(DIR) Post #ATaiI8N92sHzbXUJlI by estelle@front-end.social
2023-03-14T01:38:30Z
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@seldo I respectfully disagree. Developers should understand HTML. People need to know how a radio button works, what a meta tag does, what the`alt` attribute is for, and the basics of how the browser works. To overuse the driving analogy, you don't need to know how the starter motor works, but you do need to know what each component of the UI does and how the components interact. You need to know radio buttons need names and values just like you know you simultaneously hit the gas & brakes.
(DIR) Post #ATaiv5KqGsOjTjz4xU by borland@mastodon.nz
2023-03-14T01:45:25Z
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@seldo “real” fundamentals are things like classes, lambda’s, null-safety; these were probably all part of lisp in the 1950’s and are gradually making their way into day-to-day programming languages at a rate of one per decade.If it’s something specific to one programming language or framework, it’s not a fundamental
(DIR) Post #ATajDM9KUjOiq8JNoW by LouisIngenthron@qoto.org
2023-03-14T01:48:49Z
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@seldo In my experience, that's a fine attitude only for folks who are happy with limiting their potential.There's a great deal of wisdom to be found in the lower level implementations that translates directly to the quality of work at the higher level.Understanding how the fundamentals apply to the higher-level frameworks can be the difference between a worker bee and a trusted expert.
(DIR) Post #ATajLeQoPGn9rCRbQO by seldo@alpaca.gold
2023-03-14T01:50:27Z
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Oh my god I can't believe we still need to be having this conversation.
(DIR) Post #ATajhHkLQgDNs6tdY0 by 22@octodon.social
2023-03-14T01:54:19Z
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@seldo on the one hand, I totally agree with you when it comes to people saying "multivariate calculus is fundamental" and making it a required course for computer science students—that's obviously gatekeeping.But are abstractions not leaky? I'll date myself by saying I read this not long after it was first published 😅 https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2002/11/11/the-law-of-leaky-abstractions/ and it's guided me pretty well, especially paired with @kellan's "innovation tokens" idea (https://mcfunley.com/choose-boring-technology): when you're not burning one of your innovation tokens, you use something that's, for the lack of a better word, fundamental? Something that you understand well and you can get help debugging when it leaks? Like HTML, SQL, LAPACK, Python, React, things like that?(Another reason I like using those "fundamental" technologies is I prefer my juniors learn something highly-transferrable rather than some internal NIH-spawn.)
(DIR) Post #ATakn1nPkIEk5sdORE by jbr@hachyderm.io
2023-03-14T02:06:27Z
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@seldo Agreed. That said, understanding fundamentals is ultimately beneficial, but likely not necessary to build great things. May save ya some pain later, but maybe serendipitous success happens alot too, OR!!! maybe not every thing takes perfection.
(DIR) Post #ATalKXSh2ANBrMvBdg by ademagic@indieweb.social
2023-03-14T02:12:30Z
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@seldo as someone who was very selective about the fundamentals they learnt, I partially agree with you. I've seen enough FE frameworks to know that true transferable knowledge is still JS/CSS/HTML fundamentals. But I agree that that will eventually change.I'm in camp "productive first, proficient later". I'd downgrade the "must learn" to a "definitely should", or at least a "willing to".
(DIR) Post #ATalRHzmw3DLv3cWG0 by seldo@alpaca.gold
2023-03-14T02:13:50Z
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@mawhrin so you still run a physical server under your desk? Or do you run virtual machines?
(DIR) Post #ATalbRqLB1zZMC2rzs by bobo_of_id@mastodon.social
2023-03-14T02:15:40Z
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@seldo the only "fundamental" for me is the tiniest bit of curiosity and a willingness to try things and share pitfalls and triumphs. I don't need some laundry list of stuff I have personally found important, because I know that's just my experience and theirs is different.
(DIR) Post #ATanagNppaL44UTUu0 by paul_ipv6@infosec.exchange
2023-03-14T02:36:31Z
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@seldo the closest i'd call to fundamentals is the mind set of problem solving methodically and the ability/methodology of learning something new. the tech details will always change and the current "tech everyone must know" will change.
(DIR) Post #ATao0i0aPakidm0ikC by bendelarre@mastodon.social
2023-03-14T02:42:22Z
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@seldo did you read the whole thread?The point isn't that you must learn fundamentals. It's that learning above and below the abstractions you work in teach you more about your abstractions, and imho that knowledge is the difference between average and good.You don't *need* to learn how your abstraction du jour is built, nor how those layers above stack up, and Alex calls that out. But in doing so you will be better prepared for the changes to come and a better developer for it.
(DIR) Post #ATapdYOADARQ3N7pUO by SeaRyanC@fosstodon.org
2023-03-14T03:00:46Z
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@seldo The people in the replies pointing to their favorite abstractions as the "true" fundamentals is really driving the point home
(DIR) Post #ATas2JYKhxilBjogJU by SeaRyanC@fosstodon.org
2023-03-14T03:03:13Z
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@seldo it's only a fundamental if it comes from the Fundamén region of France, otherwise it's sparkling implementation detail
(DIR) Post #ATas9SyC5sd8QEK5cu by collin@mastodon.social
2023-03-14T03:29:04Z
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@seldo totes.I’m teaching a beginner class right now. For bootstrapping reasons we’re building with html/css/js. It’s a small enough toolkit that you can learn quick enough and build func and real things with.But 100%, even with a ~100 line tic tac toe game… I’m like, yeah, front end toolkits are pretty awesome and on the whole do a good job of solving the pain points of vanilla js.
(DIR) Post #ATawFpdF9JiwGGoY2C by Kkress@mastodon.social
2023-03-14T04:14:56Z
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@seldo If you don't grok the intimate details of Ethernet framing, fully understand the importance of BGP routing and cannot describe in detail how kernel interrupt bottom halves work, then you cannot possibly write a UI that helps someone get a burrito at 2am.
(DIR) Post #ATb1oYJk12aQT34GS8 by philsherry@home.social
2023-03-14T05:17:09Z
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@seldo HTML is considered a fundamental now—it was considered a fundamental in the ‘90s when I was picking it up.CSS is a fundamental. JavaScript is a fundamental. Accessibility is a fundamental and a basic human right.These are the fundamentals that are usually skipped when someone jumps straight into learning how to use a JS framework, but I suspect you know that. None of them will be downgraded from fundamentals to a “low level implementation detail” in the next 5 years.
(DIR) Post #ATb9ZX5f5xRNx2pbCS by yuletide@mastodon.social
2023-03-14T06:44:14Z
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@seldo wait are quote statuses a thing now how did I miss this!!?
(DIR) Post #ATbBTfnW0aJP7xg2Nc by djf@hachyderm.io
2023-03-14T07:05:28Z
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@seldo I was with you last time you disagreed vocally with Alex. But I’m with Alex on this one. He’s not gatekeeping; he’s offering solid career advice: be conversant with the layers of the tech stack above and below the ones you work with. That’s good advice if you plan to thrive in the industry for a long time
(DIR) Post #ATbFiZ2zmuH8LtH2sS by jocrossick@hachyderm.io
2023-03-14T07:53:01Z
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@seldo These messages all come from the same place: "I'm frustrated that so many of my colleagues don't understand the things I do about our craft, while also feeling like an imposter or fearful of being left behind because they seem to know things or be able to achieve things that I don't know".My advice: Just keep learning and appreciate others' expertise in whatever form it takes.
(DIR) Post #ATbZEu5QzvH804Y5Ts by kellogh@hachyderm.io
2023-03-14T11:30:29Z
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@seldo eh? surely someone has to understand how everything works, right? seems like it becomes a house of cards otherwise
(DIR) Post #ATbhbKbhsJIuFwqiDA by seldo@alpaca.gold
2023-03-14T13:05:27Z
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@mawhrin that seems to be moving the goal posts significantly from what you originally asked.
(DIR) Post #ATbhkrwjI4HYGIELWy by seldo@alpaca.gold
2023-03-14T13:07:15Z
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@philsherry in the 90s CSS and JavaScript weren't considered fundamental because they didn't exist yet. HTTP header parsing was considered a fundamental, I know because I was there. The fundamentals change.
(DIR) Post #ATbjUGurOqRqgpZNcO by swiftcoder@mastodon.social
2023-03-14T11:51:52Z
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@kellogh @seldo there have been more underlying layers than a mere mortal can comprehend for a long time. Someone needs to know how ARP works on Ethernet networks, but most people write internet-connected software without that knowledge 🤷♀️
(DIR) Post #ATbjUIW7RnqVeg0eKe by swiftcoder@mastodon.social
2023-03-14T11:53:38Z
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@kellogh @seldo abstractions are necessary shelter in both directions. You don’t want your kernel networking expert to have to intimately understand how React works, any more than you’d want the reverse
(DIR) Post #ATbjUJaPTKs8yH1aeu by kellogh@hachyderm.io
2023-03-14T11:56:13Z
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@seldo @swiftcoder this seems like a very big company perspective
(DIR) Post #ATbjUKsWfSxQykVZXE by swiftcoder@mastodon.social
2023-03-14T12:01:33Z
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@kellogh @seldo at a big company you actually get to have all the experts in house, which is pretty nice - small companies mostly have to farm the underlying details out to bigger companies (and hope you don’t have to peer under the hood too often)
(DIR) Post #ATbjUMOT2C6Ng6Saxc by kellogh@hachyderm.io
2023-03-14T12:40:34Z
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@seldo @swiftcoder i think we’re getting mixed up over definitions. fundamentals are the basics, i.e. you took the 100-level class. an expert is someone who has mastery of nearly every detail, they could teach every 400-level class.Tristam, i’ve worked with you, and i know that while you’re not an expert, you have a broad understanding, well beyond the fundamentals, a many levels far beyond where you’re currently working. i can’t imagine you think it’s useless
(DIR) Post #ATbjUNmFtEixyAb6g4 by swiftcoder@mastodon.social
2023-03-14T13:03:33Z
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@kellogh @seldo I think it’s always valuable to build a depth of knowledge, but “fundamentals” are relative to the abstraction levels you work at. When I studied CS, everyone had to learn to design/implement a performant hashmap. Nowadays most people work in environments that offer built-in hashmap support - should we be requiring them all to learn the same fundamentals? 🤷♀️
(DIR) Post #ATbjUOzlMV7hkLvPN2 by swiftcoder@mastodon.social
2023-03-14T13:14:01Z
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@kellogh @seldo part of the problem is I don’t think our field actually has a great handle on what “fundamentals” really are. In my education it was mostly “things C programmers need to know”, with lots of focus on pointers and data structures
(DIR) Post #ATbjUQ6tDUPzCkGc7M by kellogh@hachyderm.io
2023-03-14T13:19:05Z
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@seldo @swiftcoder right, to your point, the set of fundamentals fades as time passes. at this point, networking fundamentals include knowing that there is an ARP protocol and knowing where it fits into the protocol suite, but not much elsei was jarred by the idea that we don’t even need to know the fundamentals, but maybe we’re all just saying that, as time passes, there’s less you need to know about the lower levels
(DIR) Post #ATbjUR31jKvG73T2jg by swiftcoder@mastodon.social
2023-03-14T13:24:20Z
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@kellogh @seldo there are also always going to be OS/networking/compiler/database/etc engineers who are needed to keep all the underpinnings running smoothly (and those domains grow with every abstraction layer we add on top). For them the fundamentals don’t move nearly as fast
(DIR) Post #ATbjURzAFBQX1MfTM0 by seldo@alpaca.gold
2023-03-14T13:26:31Z
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@swiftcoder @kellogh You're almost there! For them the fundamentals are *totally different*, nothing we'd consider vital to know is even a concern of theirs. If that can be true of them and us, maybe it can be true of... us and others in our field?
(DIR) Post #ATbkKwqWkXa9nAf2Ia by kellogh@hachyderm.io
2023-03-14T13:36:10Z
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@seldo @swiftcoder back to the original toot, i don’t read this as being in conflict with what we’re saying here. they’re very clear in the thread that the amount you need to know decreases as you get further from your current position
(DIR) Post #ATblxt3grkVPICwue0 by philsherry@home.social
2023-03-14T13:54:26Z
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@seldo Whoa, you were there? Amazing. And yes, I know CSS and JavaScript were additions to the fundamentals stack, but I know that because, hey, I was there, too. (Am I doing this right?)Are those things *still* fundamental to web development somewhat-over-5 years later? I think they are. So, yes, there is such a thing as “the fundamentals”.
(DIR) Post #ATbm5LkCbz1WHqOO36 by seldo@alpaca.gold
2023-03-14T13:55:42Z
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@philsherry I don't know how to put it more simply than "the fundamentals change". We agree that they do. So they will continue to do. One layer sticking around more than 5 years doesn't mean it will continue.
(DIR) Post #ATd67c400EWFq90b2W by morewry@indieweb.social
2023-03-15T05:14:56Z
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@seldo @philsherry I find it becomes necessary to teach juniors about HTTP headers if they don't already know about them. We indeed may not need to parse them, but we still need to know about them.