Post ATNBPy49QQNWPkFiIi by bmaxv@noc.social
(DIR) More posts by bmaxv@noc.social
(DIR) Post #ATN38Dzueb5SynIZWq by blacklight@social.platypush.tech
2023-03-07T11:27:06Z
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I have a mixed feeling about announcements like these from #NextCloud.On one hand, I really appreciate it to see a company that embraces open-source so much that it allows anybody to contribute to its codebase.On the other hand, I can't help pushing away that feeling of being exploited.Announcements like these (and previous ones made by the company) can be summarized as "hey, do you know PHP and Vue? Would you like to spend hours/days of your time building a cool project, and probably spend the rest of your life maintaining it, in exchange for a NextCloud mug and T-shirt? Then go to our repo and pick a ticket!"Of course, I acknowledge that being a relatively small company, without the funding that Google and Microsoft get, while trying to compete with them in the same space but with an open-source product, is not easy. They have to rely a lot on the community to build things for them.I don't have a solution within reach, but there MUST be a more sustainable way of building cool software while rewarding contributors. Building e.g. a podcast app, a note-taking app, a photos management app or a mail client is something that takes a lot of time, money and resources in other companies. Companies out there invest millions of $ to build such projects. Instead, if you build them on NextCloud, you'll get a pat on the shoulder and a mug. And then we complain that open-source projects struggle to attract engineering talent?https://nextcloud.com/blog/contribute-to-the-text-app-the-hidden-gem/
(DIR) Post #ATN3HMm1OVsQnu9z60 by blacklight@social.platypush.tech
2023-03-07T11:28:45Z
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(cc @daphnemuller)
(DIR) Post #ATNARqKZ3WOZ35GBJA by kikobar@acc4e.com
2023-03-07T12:49:01Z
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@blacklight totally agree with you... but at the end of the day, many people do it... and in a way love doing it.Contributing to an #OpenSource project has some sort of magic.On the flip side, we'd never contribute to something we don't really need for ourselves... so in a way we are solving our own problems.There is also something that has to do with what is core and what its accessory to an application. In the particular case of #NextCloud, which I've used for many years since the early #OwnCloud days, I believe that the actual value of the application is at its core (the storage, the ability to share and federate, the calendar and the contacts), and I am sure a lot talent and effort go to that. On the other hand, I don't believe there are many takers for the myriad of little apps and integrations in the store... so it is understandable that no resources are devoted to those by the main project and somehow they need to fish out for people who find cool doing something for a T-shirt, because they were going to do it anyway...I believe the new crowdfunding tools such as Patreon are filling some of these gaps, but they are not perfect (and expensive!)... there are some other ideas in the realm of the co-ops also coming up like @opencollective which could be instrumental in funneling some funds/resources/rewards to the contributors of these small projects...I cannot find a good solution either.#OpenSource #crowdfunding
(DIR) Post #ATNBPy49QQNWPkFiIi by bmaxv@noc.social
2023-03-07T12:59:51Z
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@blacklight I don't think this is even an issue.This is the way companies or other big orgs can put in the features they want or need. Presumably while their company or org pays them to do this directly or implicitly to 'figure out solutions to their problems'.I don't think another text editor has any merit period, but if something like this is to be done, this is not a bad way to do it.I really don't see any unconnected person to engage with this because they love working for free.
(DIR) Post #ATNE8FaTqGLRPEcLei by blacklight@social.platypush.tech
2023-03-07T13:30:21Z
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@bmaxv > I don't think another text editor has any merit periodI see why it makes sense from the NC perspective: they are trying to build an ecosystem that is as self-contained as possible, so people won't have to leave it for other tools. If you look at the competitors in the same space (Google and Microsoft) that also build self-contained all-in solutions, it's easy to see why they want to go down that path.The problem is that NC is a company that hires ~100-200 employees (and only a fraction of them are engineers), and they want to compete with titans that invest much more to build an "everything suite". That's obviously impossible, unless you really rely A LOT on the community.And here's the problem: they can't exist without us, and they know very well that we like to build stuff for free, so they can always find somebody to build e.g. a podcast or office integration for them for free, while the cost of building it for another commercial competitor would be in the terms of $100,000's - $1,000,000's. It's a very convenient deal for them: they can save a lot money, get people to build whatever they want, pay them with a mug or an invitation to a conference, and even boast about their fairness and open-source credentials compared to "evil" big tech, when in reality they exploit and underpay engineering resources much more.I'm not sure whether this is fair or sustainable on the long term. My main concern is about maintanability. Once the new feature or integration is out, who's going to maintain it? The unpaid enthusiastic open-source contributor? Somebody else from the community? Their tiny engineering team? Most of the integrations are built by external unpaid contributors, and they rely on the benevolence of some dude on Github if something breaks. There's already a big graveyard of unmaintained apps on their store because the developers that built them no longer had incentives to keep them up-to-date with newer versions of NC. How can such a business model be appealing to companies that care mostly of stability and support for the software they run on their infrastructure?
(DIR) Post #ATNEgQZhUtnHKRY98C by blacklight@social.platypush.tech
2023-03-07T13:36:32Z
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@kikobar the problem is that the lifetime of an app or integration doesn't terminate once it's shipped. It needs to be maintained forever if it finds enough users.Sure, I can contribute to build or fix stuff for free, but I can't commit to maintain it forever. And many seem to think like me - the largest part of the apps released on the NC store isn't compatible with any version of NC released in the past year.So they are in a state where they rely on people to build stuff for them for free, but they can't commit resources to support that stuff on the long term.That's ok for small users like me and you that run NC on our own home server, but try to bring that argument to a larger organization. Try and tell them that nothing guarantees that their email/calendar/media integration will still work in one year, let alone in ten.I believe in Patreons and voluntary contributions too, but I definitely don't see them as a sustainable alternative.@opencollective
(DIR) Post #ATNErftes4u42BFQVU by hmiron@fosstodon.org
2023-03-07T13:38:33Z
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@blacklight It's clear Nextcloud benefits from a healthy community and apps. I agree with your point regarding maintainability, if the right incentives are not there for the app developers, it's not going to go well.For me it's not clear what is handled and maintained by the core team and what is maintained by lone developers.
(DIR) Post #ATNKBrnooaKuWPxpdA by kikobar@acc4e.com
2023-03-07T14:38:12Z
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@blacklight agree 150%I think we all have been caught up more than once with a dependency on an abandoned project. It sucks... but in its own twisted way, it is fair.In practice, our only defense is to steer away from small projects unless we are prepared to become their maintainer for the envisioned life of our own project or needs. 🤷♂️ @opencollective