Post ATFiQRhGpyxsPEVT3A by EpiphanicSynchronicity@pkm.social
(DIR) More posts by EpiphanicSynchronicity@pkm.social
(DIR) Post #ATDo3SZ3emFxqSATYW by post@qoto.org
2023-03-03T00:25:49Z
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#PKM proprietary/online products: exist#Obsidian users: “better keep notes local and in a standard format!”#Logseq users: “right, but also using #FOSS tools is important for the same reasons, Obsidian is not FOSS, on the other hand there is this new app called Logseq…”Obsidian users: “it’s nice that everyone can use what suit them the best :)”🤷🏻♂
(DIR) Post #ATDpLcnQSCpukF77xY by ellane@pkm.social
2023-03-03T00:40:16Z
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@post Hahahaha so true!
(DIR) Post #ATDpSc3hau8YU73jwe by ellane@pkm.social
2023-03-03T00:41:31Z
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@post Hahahaha so true!
(DIR) Post #ATFEOyhUAAwLYnzVp2 by EpiphanicSynchronicity@pkm.social
2023-03-03T16:55:43Z
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@post I’m *really* liking Logseq, but for different things than I use Obsidian for.I’m finding Logseq ideal for dealing with the messiness of daily life—for things I need to remember and refer to now and in the coming days but won’t necessarily need long-term, which is different from the way I use Obsidian.Rather than alternatives, I now see them as complementary tools with different though overlapping capabilities—more like Photoshop and Illustrator than Photoshop and Gimp.
(DIR) Post #ATFHQWUQJve6VZJGpk by post@qoto.org
2023-03-03T17:29:38Z
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@EpiphanicSynchronicityI don’t remember if I already asked you, but what’s the difference between Logseq’s Document Mode and Obsidian? I don’t see why one would open another app when in Logseq you can just press t,d to hide bullet points and write paragraphs of text in blocks like in any “longform writing” app.
(DIR) Post #ATFJKhADvA3xmhD65g by EpiphanicSynchronicity@pkm.social
2023-03-03T17:50:58Z
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@post That’s not the only reason I use #ObsidianMD. It produces cleaner, more portable markdown documents, and I can use folders, which are to organization what plaintext is to data. Just as plaintext guarantees that I can always edit my notes in any text editor, a basic folder structure means I’ll always be able to navigate them in any file manager.
(DIR) Post #ATFJOZTgRKEV6YA1k8 by EpiphanicSynchronicity@pkm.social
2023-03-03T17:51:40Z
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@post I really like #Logseq, but I’d stick with Obsidian if I had to choose, which fortunately I don’t. I like open source and I respect that FOSS is a core value for you, but it’s just one factor I consider. Our difference on this comes down to that old fact/value dichotomy.
(DIR) Post #ATFKNRjRqvHukKYuHI by post@qoto.org
2023-03-03T18:02:41Z
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@EpiphanicSynchronicityJust to be clear mine was a joke about consistency when promoting the product you like
(DIR) Post #ATFLsHBnCUTsyn5Ix6 by post@qoto.org
2023-03-03T18:19:28Z
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@EpiphanicSynchronicityAbout Markdown: I can write a page in Document Mode in Logseq using first level blocks as paragraphs and indented ones as lists; if I remember to press t,o shortcut to expand all collapsed blocks the collapsed:: true property is removed; if I don’t reference any of those blocks I am free from id:: properties too; I can remove the first two columns of characters from the file to turn first level blocks into paragraphs and get more “standard” Markdown files with a simple Unix command; I can concatenate that command to Pandoc that I use to export to PDF so I don’t need to actually edit the MD files;This is more complex to explain than practicing, so for me there is not a reason to split data and workflows between two apps that would be a huge disadvantage.About folders: Logseq frees me from having to choose a hierarchy, to stick to it and to decide where to place something; I can have as many hierarchies as I want to organize pages (and blocks and whatever) and the same element can be in multiple hierarchies; I can still organize MD files in folders independently from Logseq that will just respect my folder graph organization; this is useful if there is a set of pages I want to share between graphs (I can symlink a folder) or share a specific folder with other people etc.
(DIR) Post #ATFYWCuzhKgqlb2BhA by ellane@pkm.social
2023-03-03T20:41:07Z
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@post @EpiphanicSynchronicity All of that is fantastically useful …but only in Logseq. There's nothing wrong with that *if* you're convinced Logseq will be around for the long haul, and you're happy with the way it leaves your raw data if it's not.
(DIR) Post #ATFdJduwVIy6Vdq2Mq by post@qoto.org
2023-03-03T21:34:52Z
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@ellane @EpiphanicSynchronicity#Logseq is #FOSS, that means: it’s not only the product of a company but also a tool that belongs to all the users. if the company give up on Logseq the development can be continued by others even by re-organizing a new team of developers eventually financially supported. it can only “die” if there are better alternatives and the users move to them. As soon as it is relevant, it won’t die. I will always be able to modify it to fix bugs or improve it by myself and even if I have not the skills, I can pay someone to do the work. tools to export data from it can benefit from knowing exactly how it works internally.Additionally, Logseq: has HTTP/JSON APIs to power external tools including the ones to export data. it uses Datalog for queries that is a very powerful query language, much better than SQL and very popular in some fields. it’s written in ClojureScript, a Functional Programming language, that makes easy to take a specific portion of the code and use it in other tools, again to export data to other formats without writing everything from scratch (there is already a CLI tool called logseq-query that let you query your graph without Logseq actually running). you can use HTML in it (as mentioned in Markdown specification) but also Hiccup that is a Clojure-friendly way to write HTML/CSS, basically allowing the user to remodel the application by adding buttons and even mini-apps in blocks because it can even evaluate ClojureScript.Now, Obsidian is supposed to be just a Markdown advanced editor but its plugins need special syntax like Dataview’s, that is not standard in any way, to provide the same functionalities shipped by Logseq by default and involving more standard and enstablished technologies.Logseq on the other hand is the convergence of outliners like Org-Mode, a graph database to power a flexible and performant data structure, Datalog query language, everything exposed as HTTP API for max interoperability and to run it over a network and this unique approach of the user remodelling the UI with HTML/CSS/JS, blurring the line between users and developers and between an app and a framework.Logseq was born as a personal project to provide a modern UI to OrgMode, that 20 years later its first release is still very popular, gets new releases and has a huge ecosystem.Thinking in terms of “will it still be around?” is something that belongs to the realm of proprietary products and services. Logseq is a piece of that huge amount of software that belongs to humanity known as FOSS. And this is also the reason we are discussing this on Mastodon and not on Twitter.
(DIR) Post #ATFe18lzevJuetOTM8 by EpiphanicSynchronicity@pkm.social
2023-03-03T21:42:40Z
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@post Except that one is about your days and one is about the source code of your app. With #ObsidianMD, your *data* is saved in a cleaner, more portable—and arguably more open—format, and with #Logseq, the source code of your *app* is open. It’s not inconsistent to place more preferential weight on one than the other in choosing which to use and for what purpose.
(DIR) Post #ATFem0Xc5CVmjp11Oa by ellane@pkm.social
2023-03-03T21:51:13Z
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@post @EpiphanicSynchronicity Very impressive! And if I understood the tech side of all those acronyms and big words, I might be right on board with you.We're both on valid paths philosophically speaking. I'm happy here in my 2-room log cabin in the woods, while you are perfectly content renovating and expanding your own high-tech steel framed multi-level bunker, wherever the heck you want it to be.All good! *shakes hands with you*#obsidian #ObsidianMD #logseq #minimalism
(DIR) Post #ATFfp5gJWlzvVH7Rei by ellane@pkm.social
2023-03-03T22:02:58Z
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@post @EpiphanicSynchronicity Very impressive! And if I understood the tech side of all those acronyms and big words, I might be right on board with you.We're both on valid paths philosophically speaking. I'm happy here in my rough-hewn 2-room log cabin in the woods, while you have the ability to build and maintain whatever Logseq-flavoured structure you like.All good! *shakes hands with you*#obsidian #ObsidianMD #logseq #minimalism
(DIR) Post #ATFhnLUhxscLsJzCvw by post@qoto.org
2023-03-03T22:25:05Z
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@EpiphanicSynchronicityBeing FOSS and not being FOSS is an objective on/off, while portability of data is a subjective spectrum.In particular, with Obsidian you introduce special syntax using plugins like Dataview. Logseq has built-in queries using Datalog.What’s more standard and portable, Dataview syntax or Datalog?Also I already said Logseq saves data as Markdown with additional optional syntax that you would add with Obsidian plugins anyway.I can easily turn the indented lists by Logseq into paragraphs if I want, but those indented lists are still standard Markdown.About block properties, it is trivial to remove them automatically.For block reference, again, it is trivial to search in the whole folder for the ID of a block, it can be done manually by text editors or automatically through code.There is even a LSP (Language Server Protocol) for Logseq syntax that adds functionalities to IDEs that support LSP like previewing a block reference when hovering it with the cursor, like it would happen if Logseq syntax was a programming language. I know Obsidian has one too but the point here is how easy it could be to recover data and UX from a special syntax.
(DIR) Post #ATFiQRhGpyxsPEVT3A by EpiphanicSynchronicity@pkm.social
2023-03-03T22:32:06Z
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@post @ellane Open-source projects *do* get abandoned. Just because someone can continue to develop an open-source app doesn’t mean they will. Anyone without the skills *and* the time *and* the self-discipline to do it has no guarantee that someone else will do so, and in a timely way.If not, they’re eventually going to be looking for a new app—just as they would if they’d been using a closed-source app that stopped development and didn’t get open-sourced or bought out by a new dev.
(DIR) Post #ATFje3NW9MgwzXJt7Q by post@qoto.org
2023-03-03T22:45:49Z
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@EpiphanicSynchronicityYou are replying repeating what Obsidian team says without actually reading what I said… this is exhausing but for the last time:If I actually care about a piece of software I can improve it by myself or pay someone to do the work.This is the key piece you keep skipping: in this world when you want someone to do some work for you you pay them.Would you buy a house knowing that can be repaired only by the company that sold it to you? Would you risk see that company disappear and you having to abandon your house?Why would it be different with software?FOSS projects even have the advantage that fixes and improvements can be made once for all users, present and future, so you will have more people in the same situation as you willing to contribute or support (a portion of) the development.
(DIR) Post #ATFkeulLlgHiVxRRo0 by EpiphanicSynchronicity@pkm.social
2023-03-03T22:57:09Z
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@post Plaintext files with a minimum of app-specific formatting *are* objectively more portable and universally readable. And while the characteristics that make software FOSS or not may be objective, the extent to which anyone personally values those characteristics is subjective. The reason professional photographers overwhelmingly pay for Photoshop instead of using GIMP isn’t because they’re ignorant or stupid. Photoshop has qualities they care more about than GIMP being FOSS.
(DIR) Post #ATFlqUcYt7uormPqTI by EpiphanicSynchronicity@pkm.social
2023-03-03T23:10:26Z
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@post > “Would you buy a house knowing that can be repaired only by the company that sold it to you? Would you risk see that company disappear and you having to abandon your house? Why would it be different with software?”Because the cost to stop using an app is trivial compared to the cost to abandon a house you own. Obsidian free. It would be far faster, cheaper, and more efficient to switch to another app than to pay a dev to write custom code to keep an abandoned Logseq working.
(DIR) Post #ATFmUHiCIrGuPf1gGG by post@qoto.org
2023-03-03T23:17:40Z
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@EpiphanicSynchronicityGood point, valuing FOSS is subjective but since Obsidian users advocate for digital sovereignty I expected FOSS to resonate with them and even if they won’t move away from Obsidian just for this reason I expected to see more appreciation toward FOSS in general and admission that being closed source is a weakness for Obsidian.Instead Gimp is not an alternative to Photoshop, Gimp is just an image editor while as you said Photoshop is a product for professional photographers and not only.On the other hand Krita is way better than Photoshop for drawing since it is specialized for that.Just mentioning one area where FOSS is weak is not fair though. Remaining in creative arts sector we have Blender that can compete with proprietary counterparts and with the recent release of Godot 4.0 we have a professional FOSS game engine.These are huge complex FOSS projects. Nothing prevents us from having the same but opposed to Photoshop, it just happens not to be the case for now.Also notice that many of us already can work with 100% FOSS, while it’s impossible to go 100% proprietary.For example there is no proprietary Web engine to my knowledge; proprietary Web browsers would still be based on Blink or WebKit.
(DIR) Post #ATFnBUsnD4YtiJaTDM by post@qoto.org
2023-03-03T23:25:28Z
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@EpiphanicSynchronicityWhat if there are no other apps that meet your needs?What if your productivity depends on a very good plugin for Obsidian and the same experience can’t be reproduced with anything?Also what alternatives to Obsidian do you currently have?
(DIR) Post #ATFoUTzopYZYQ6UTku by EpiphanicSynchronicity@pkm.social
2023-03-03T23:40:06Z
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@post I agree that there are great open-source apps and I often use them. I’m writing this in an open-source Mastodon client. Open source has real benefits. I just value the freedom to use whatever software I find most useful and enjoyable over the freedom I’d have to modify or fork the source code if I were a developer.Btw, Krita is better compared to Illustrator than to Photoshop.
(DIR) Post #ATFokOSdB7U1szYPYW by post@qoto.org
2023-03-03T23:42:59Z
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@EpiphanicSynchronicityAre you sure about Krita? It’s more for raster graphics like Photoshop than for vector graphics like Illustrator
(DIR) Post #ATFrMatFc9sNLbLfAe by EpiphanicSynchronicity@pkm.social
2023-03-04T00:12:18Z
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@post I can’t know what the future will bring. New software comes out often and people switch to it from apps they previously loved and depended on. I try to keep my long-term data as future-proof as possible while using what works best for me for as long as it lasts or until I find something I like better.Right now if I *had* to I could probably make due with Zettlr, Tangent, or Notenik, or pay NotePlan’s overpriced subscription. Or you know, go all in on Logseq. 😉
(DIR) Post #ATFrfUBqkVXc4O3YEi by EpiphanicSynchronicity@pkm.social
2023-03-04T00:15:41Z
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@post You’re right, I’m thinking of Inkscape.
(DIR) Post #ATFtdjGruJrgAhh4mu by ellane@pkm.social
2023-03-04T00:37:47Z
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@post @EpiphanicSynchronicity I'm determined to *never* make my productivity depend on *any app*. App agnosticism is what I'm going for. I depend on plain text and folders being around while computers exist. Because of this, I have a large (and growing) number of apps I can use to access the same files, with the same functionality I enjoy now.*drums fingers on table, trying to think of a cool, future-trending hashtag for this concept*
(DIR) Post #ATFujBZaD1hpLmc4Z6 by post@qoto.org
2023-03-04T00:50:00Z
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@ellane @EpiphanicSynchronicityCongratulations, you have rediscovered as a user one of the principles of Unix philosophy, “Everything is a file”.FYI Unix is the family of operating systems where Linux and MacOS comes from.The success of Unix is related to storing everything as plain text files and use a composable set of commands to manipulate them.#EverythingIsAFile
(DIR) Post #ATFwQPmxKaqjqV2sAS by darren@astrodon.social
2023-03-04T01:08:59Z
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@post @EpiphanicSynchronicity I think you’re missing what they’re saying. They’re not simply spouting someone else’s marketing lines (which is what you seem to be implying). Personally, although I could, I don’t want to have to maintain a codebase indefinitely into the future so that my notes stay usable. So for people like me, what would you do? You’d chose to set things up in a way that you could move with minimum friction. There will always be apps that can read .md
(DIR) Post #ATFxkQ8LrEmuf69kLw by post@qoto.org
2023-03-04T01:23:49Z
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@darren @EpiphanicSynchronicityFor context, here we are talking about two apps that both store data as Markdown files and they can even be used together to some degree.The main difference is that Logseq is an outliner, so it mainly stores Markdown indented lists.A Logseq user controls how much extra syntax to adopt just like does an Obsidian user with plugins like Dataview. So my argument is that there is not much difference in practice.Additionally, I pointed out that a big part of Logseq are queries and you can use Datalog, that is a query language just like SQL but more expressive, used for example in Machine Learning.Obsidian users known about Markdown but miss that it is not the only standard that can be adopted. Retrieving notes is a key feature in any PKM system and so it is valuable not to reinvent the wheel. Logseq using Datalog (both internally and exposed to the user) is a major selling point. This is just an example.The big difference instead is Logseq being FOSS for the reasons I stated.
(DIR) Post #ATFy4zq2omJxBpP8yG by darren@astrodon.social
2023-03-04T01:27:32Z
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@post @ellane @EpiphanicSynchronicity Hmmm … your comment comes across as a little passive-aggressive to me. Maybe @ellane knows full well how Unix works and doesn’t need someone else to explain that to her.And for the record, I very much agree with her philosophy. I’m a big supporter of #FOSS but don’t see it as the only way to do things. In the end, what I need is to be productive. I’ll weigh the options and make my choices.
(DIR) Post #ATFyMyrLCGs5MjaQIC by darren@astrodon.social
2023-03-04T01:30:47Z
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@post @EpiphanicSynchronicity > Obsidian users known about Markdown but miss that it is not the only standard that can be adopted. Why do you assume I missed that?
(DIR) Post #ATFyRHEwndo5Wyg21A by post@qoto.org
2023-03-04T01:31:35Z
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@darren @ellane @EpiphanicSynchronicityNo, mine was a genuine reply and since I follow her I had elements to think she doesn’t know about this.
(DIR) Post #ATFzS94mjpnkSFtxM8 by ellane@pkm.social
2023-03-04T01:42:52Z
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@post @darren @EpiphanicSynchronicity Thanks, I'm pretty ignorant about lots of things, and Unix is one of them (appreciate your support, @darren ). Yes! Everything is a file. But not all files are as clean—or accessible—as I'd like them to be. While I recognise there's a lot I don't know about the nuts and bolts of it all, I know enough to be content with not (at present) putting in the effort to get up to speed. I don't see my way as the only way, just as a valid alternative.
(DIR) Post #ATFzfvnIuuqPJdIZJQ by post@qoto.org
2023-03-04T01:45:26Z
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@darrenIf I say “Obsidian users” I mean the ones I know on average. Why would you think I am referring to you? I didn’t even know you use Obsidian…I have discussed many times with that other person about Obsidian, Logseq and FOSS and my point has always been the same but argued again and again.This started with an attack by the Obsidian CEO against Logseq out of nothing, followed by corporate blabbering and just a few weeks earlier there was a very misleading announcement about Obsidian new secretly developed .canvas format being made “open source”.So sorry, I’m a little fed up with the Obsidian topic.
(DIR) Post #ATG0OoBG4T1MjXtyt6 by darren@astrodon.social
2023-03-04T01:53:32Z
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@post Sorry, didn’t mean to turn this all negative. People were trying to explain to you why they use and prefer Obsidian, and you seemed to be telling them they were wrong. I’m sure that’s not how you meant it to come across. My bad. I’m 100% happy for people to use what works for them. It’s great we have options. I don’t agree with any CEO attacking others if that’s what happened (I have no idea, didn’t see this). So stand with you on that.
(DIR) Post #ATG0gQ0ifnREz5Mz4K by post@qoto.org
2023-03-04T01:56:44Z
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@ellane @darren @EpiphanicSynchronicityMarkdown files and folders has always been my approach and I was convinced to adopt Logseq because I felt it didn’t put at risk my workflow but gracefully improve it. Or at least I feel in control.As I said Obsidian and Logseq are not much different on that aspect, it’s just that Logseq needs to structure Markdown files as indented lists.
(DIR) Post #ATKwEezk6U74S6Q8x6 by luke@home.social
2023-03-06T11:00:26Z
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@post does FOSS software produce better plaintext markdown files?
(DIR) Post #ATKxgMAJnvp07H8bzs by post@qoto.org
2023-03-06T11:16:39Z
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@lukeIs this supposed to be a provocation? 🧐
(DIR) Post #ATKyzhfYB6GaGVXGK0 by post@qoto.org
2023-03-06T11:31:21Z
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@lukeJust in case you don’t know: Logseq stores data in Markdown files just like Obsidian but they are standard Markdown indented lists using dashes.To some extent one can even use Logseq and Obsidian with the same folder.It’s up to the user to avoid special syntax and this is true both in Logseq and Obsidian (the latter’s strenght is the ecosystem of plugins that often adds their own syntax).Also notice that #hashtags,[[wikilinks]], and YAML headers to store metadata are not standard Markdown.
(DIR) Post #ATSC5sISEl8oTRj1O4 by luke@home.social
2023-03-09T23:01:06Z
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@post I’m not sure what we’re arguing about? I know what Logseq is.
(DIR) Post #ATSFhYUgbx33vK6boW by post@qoto.org
2023-03-09T23:40:48Z
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@lukeThen maybe you don’t what FOSS is?
(DIR) Post #ATSG3K46w9w9Xq3Rom by luke@home.social
2023-03-09T23:45:24Z
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@post oh are we arguing about if it matters id your markdown editor is completely open source?No, not really for any reason I can think of. But if that’s super important to you. Maybe we both know what all these things are and disagree about how much it matters to our actual work or the usefulness of the product. It doesn’t. Semantically, whatever - do what makes you happy. It’s not a risk to your plaintext markdown output either way. Sed, awk, and grep are OSS, I’m pretty sure
(DIR) Post #ATSGJAUeIEeUUW1VWC by post@qoto.org
2023-03-09T23:48:20Z
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@lukeThe reply was a bit lower in the thread:https://qoto.org/@post/109961497308612952
(DIR) Post #ATSGKRMv2KPR7Q0wwC by luke@home.social
2023-03-09T23:48:34Z
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@post it would take 5 minutes with standard *nix tools to reformat and strip out or convert tags between markdown syntax recursively in a vault. Obviously tags from obsidian plugins aren’t going to render in MarsEdit.
(DIR) Post #ATTHcVOR6fTJvPrUhM by post@qoto.org
2023-03-10T11:37:42Z
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@lukeIf you mean Unix tools, those are for plain text, not for Markdown that has tables, indented lists etc.On the other hand #Logseq not only provides handy HTTP/JSON API, but you can also access the AST with command line tools (using Babashka) that basically means the files are already parsed for your convenience and you can use whatever other tool including the Unix ones to interact with it.Here there is an example of command line tool (it doesn’t depend on Logseq being running nor being installed):https://github.com/cldwalker/logseq-query
(DIR) Post #ATTlssJYeOn6GxIlwO by luke@home.social
2023-03-10T17:16:51Z
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@post I'm talking about sed, awk, grep, tr... etc. And yes, for markdown that has anything because markdown IS plaintext - even the bullet points.You're just wrong about that. Markdown is plain text, even the bits that aren't english words. It's not compiled, it's not binary - it's ascii text and it can be manipulated with standard tools if you know what you're doing.But I get it, you like logseq. That's cool.
(DIR) Post #ATTnlrhmiWmAGRQ2Ai by post@qoto.org
2023-03-10T17:37:57Z
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@lukeOK let’s see your Bash script where you reorder the elements of a Markdown table in alphabetical order using sed, awk, grep etc.It seems to me that it is you who like Obsidian too much to admit FOSS is as much important as standard formats.Also people who like Unix tools should be happy to see what you can do with Babashka and Logseq’s AST.
(DIR) Post #ATTrqV9KPEULZblhAm by luke@home.social
2023-03-10T18:23:38Z
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@post sure. Strip the delimiters, split the fields into an array - sort it, and then print it back with the delimiters. It’s ok. You can like logseq. I have nothing against it.
(DIR) Post #ATTsyRWHsvEGaRrFwm by post@qoto.org
2023-03-10T18:36:18Z
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@lukeYou are the one seriously replying to a joke 🤷🏻♂You didn’t tell me how you located the target table in a MD file that contains something else and how actually replace it with the new one. It’s a program on its own, not just some piped Unix commands.It would have been better if you said “there Markdown editors other than Obsidian and even Markdown command line tools and libraries”.The fact that you mentioned Unix tools for plain text files suggest that you are talking in a theoretical way with no actual practical experience with parsing Markdown. Maybe you don’t even know what an AST is.No offense, but you’re taking the stereotype of my joke to a new level.
(DIR) Post #ATTtoKpfzdDuuAffIe by luke@home.social
2023-03-10T18:45:40Z
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@post dude. This is a stupid argument. Can I format a markdown table and sort it in bash, yes absolutely. I worked as a linux engineer for 15 years doing stuff just like that. I’d use python myself, but absolutely could be bash… in probably < 10 lines. But the reality is that I would never put a table in markdown in the first place. I’d use a database like a grownup. I don’t actually give a shit about your work or what tools you use to do it.
(DIR) Post #ATTtxI8JOmtx8gests by post@qoto.org
2023-03-10T18:47:18Z
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@lukePlease address whatever issue you have before joining a social platform, bye.