Post ASeQI76vzRDL7eoVZw by ramsey@phpc.social
(DIR) More posts by ramsey@phpc.social
(DIR) Post #ASeMgFZjlr06VZXWRk by atomicpoet@mastodon.social
2023-02-13T22:03:10Z
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The fast rise and fall of #Threadstodon was entirely predictable.In fact, this happens every few weeks.A new service comes along to help social discovery. And then "valid concerns" come out -- usually privacy-related -- and the service suddenly becomes suspended by its creator. There's the inevitable blog post about what went wrong, key learnings, and where to go from here.Frankly, this whole cycle is annoying.
(DIR) Post #ASeMzd8gNzZD5k7t9k by tiago@social.skewed.de
2023-02-13T22:07:40Z
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@atomicpoet Some people seem to think that social pressure can contain the natural consequences of open protocols and free software. The writing is on the wall with all of this, it's just a matter of time before someone with a slightly shorter supply of fucks to give comes along.
(DIR) Post #ASeNtiqWM1bd0aNUiO by atomicpoet@mastodon.social
2023-02-13T22:09:10Z
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Let me re-iterate: social discovery needs to happen on the Fediverse.But I don't think you can get far by forcing people who don't want to be discovered to be discovered.Yes, they obscurity is not privacy. Most people have the ability to opt out of indexing. And if your stuff is publicly available on the Internet, it should always be acknowledged that it is public.I think the best way to approach this is to make discovery available only to people who enthusiastically want to be discovered.
(DIR) Post #ASeNtjKeXzi0W2TYgK by tiago@social.skewed.de
2023-02-13T22:17:49Z
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@atomicpoet It's a denialist attitude to pretend that public posts are not being gathered and indexed as we speak. The current social barriers that are in place are just nuisances that will be circumvented eventually, if the fediverse becomes truly mainstream.
(DIR) Post #ASeO6Oow7VMkfHgKMy by atomicpoet@mastodon.social
2023-02-13T22:17:37Z
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Some people are like, "Just *don't* implement scraping of the Fediverse."Yeah, tell that to Google.Look at this search of my username. Everything I post is there.Yes, I want to be discovered by Google. I don't intend to opt out.But some people don't want scraping at all. My point is: the anti-scraping folks lost that battle long, long ago!
(DIR) Post #ASeOJ3k7nUwz3gT4M4 by atomicpoet@mastodon.social
2023-02-13T22:22:20Z
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@tiago True, but if you want something to gain traction within a community, you need to achieve buy-in.
(DIR) Post #ASeOM34kjcNHrEXegy by nus@mstdn.social
2023-02-13T22:22:55Z
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@tiago @atomicpoet heaven knows there are people here that think that canceling people within their own in-group means they can do it everywhere else. A bunch of them are already running around, high on their own supply after canceling a couple pro-trans charity streams and causing a Mastodon admin to have a breakdown.Thing is, they're basically choosing the weakest targets they could possibly choose...
(DIR) Post #ASeOoewbX9w7PgNCHg by tiago@social.skewed.de
2023-02-13T22:28:05Z
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@atomicpoet If the fediverse continues to grow, it will become increasingly harder to apply these social pressures... Demographic change is more likely to happen first and render this whole discussion moot before it's actually settled.
(DIR) Post #ASeP6ZGrMjgJ1wO2xk by tiago@social.skewed.de
2023-02-13T22:31:20Z
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@nus @atomicpoet It's delusional. They have a very poor understanding of what decentralized and censorship-resistant actually means. They cannot even grasp the core elements of the very platform they are nourishing.
(DIR) Post #ASePosiUQd0C57ROuO by ramsey@phpc.social
2023-02-13T22:05:50Z
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@atomicpoet Would you say many of these services are created by newcomers who are eager to contribute to the Fediverse ecosystem without fully understanding it?
(DIR) Post #ASePotA8lp7VSsNU0W by atomicpoet@mastodon.social
2023-02-13T22:14:08Z
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@ramsey I don't know. I haven't looked at who's creating these tools.I think the best way to approach this problem is to allow social discovery, but ensure only those with enthusiastic buy-in take part.
(DIR) Post #ASePotaNCI6UmEeQtc by ramsey@phpc.social
2023-02-13T22:22:48Z
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@atomicpoet Creating that opt-in is difficult when scraping the public web has a long history and is deeply entrenched in the culture that created the web. Hell, it’s what made search engines and link directories possible. Remember the “link policies” I mentioned the other day? That was an effort to stop folks from linking to publicly-readable content, but it didn’t work. The bottom line is a post/page must be private if you don’t want others/machines to read it.
(DIR) Post #ASePou21XUDo9zaVzk by atomicpoet@mastodon.social
2023-02-13T22:24:50Z
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@ramsey Do I think opt-in is a permanent solution? Not necessarily.Eventually, I suspect there will be two versions of the Fediverse: the seen and unseen.When people join an instance, they will be met with a "This instance allows social discovery" warning.
(DIR) Post #ASePouXvcrk5kwVziy by tiago@social.skewed.de
2023-02-13T22:39:19Z
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@atomicpoet @ramsey If people manage to make paywalls go away, make scientific articles completely available with a click, all sorts of copyrighted material trivially accessible — fully indexed and searchable! — all of which is *illegal*, do you really think that an “opt in” gentleman's agreement will have any real effect? Do you realize we're on the *internet*?!
(DIR) Post #ASePqxO42CJT97sPTs by atomicpoet@mastodon.social
2023-02-13T22:31:02Z
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Last night, I wrong a (long) post entitled "Alleviating Pain of the Fediverse". I listed four core pains.Social discovery is one of those pains. It's also the pain that generates the most conflict. Nevertheless, it's a pain and we need the *best* medicine to alleviate this pain. You'll never make everyone happy. But it's possible to achieve buy-in by targeting people who enthusiastically want to be discovered.https://blog.atomicpoet.org/s/B91reR-vi#
(DIR) Post #ASePqymupHmnUUVlr6 by atomicpoet@mastodon.social
2023-02-13T22:33:23Z
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There's also a core contingent of people who are like, "Screw those people who want no scraping at all..."Except you have to acknowledge why they want no scraping.It's not that they want privacy or even secrecy.It's that they want obscurity.Prior to last November, the Fediverse gave them obscurity. That's no longer happening. And of course, they're not happy about that.
(DIR) Post #ASeQI6Wm9sI5JVtdDc by Vyen@queer.garden
2023-02-13T22:07:02Z
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@atomicpoet What about simply not implement fedi scraping tools then?People don't want those and they will be fediblocked whenever they pop up. So they should simply stop doing it. It's intrusive and also pretty stupid.
(DIR) Post #ASeQI76vzRDL7eoVZw by ramsey@phpc.social
2023-02-13T22:12:57Z
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@Vyen @atomicpoet I think (but am not certain) these are mostly folks who are newcomers to the Fediverse culture, with good intentions, who are eager to contribute to the ecosystem, and they see a gap and are trying to fill it, unaware of the previous discussions and history.Unfortunately for those who have built the Fediverse culture, there will be an Eternal September moment that will make the existing culture difficult to maintain.
(DIR) Post #ASeQI7gjqJr0uhZ6O0 by atomicpoet@mastodon.social
2023-02-13T22:21:33Z
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@ramsey @Vyen This right here. Eventually, someone isn't going to give a fuck. And they're not going to take down the service when asked.And a whole bunch of other folks who don't give a fuck will use that service too. I hope someone can build user-friendly social discovery that is more respectful of community norms.
(DIR) Post #ASeQI88kACFuJYfT2O by ramsey@phpc.social
2023-02-13T22:41:10Z
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@atomicpoet @Vyen I don’t think not giving fucks will play into it—that implies malice. The influx of new users will drown out existing voices, and so whether the creators of these services give a fuck or not won’t matter; they’ll be providing something that lots of new users want, and that’s all that will matter to them.I don’t really have an answer, but I think we’re fooling ourselves if we think this can be solve at a social level alone. Privacy has to be built into the protocol/tech.
(DIR) Post #ASeQI8cAOnn7moQxto by tiago@social.skewed.de
2023-02-13T22:44:35Z
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@ramsey @atomicpoet @Vyen It doesn't imply malice necessarily, only disagreement. In fact, someone with a bit more backbone might react to the whole mobbing attitude by doubling down.But I agree with the larger point that demographic change is likely to become the most important factor.
(DIR) Post #ASeQZ3aKLucL6sdoAa by ramsey@phpc.social
2023-02-13T22:47:32Z
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@tiago @atomicpoet @Vyen “Malice” is probably the wrong word, but I read “not giving a fuck” in this context as more than disagreement. It’s disagreement paired with lack of caring, which borders on malice, if not being actually malicious.
(DIR) Post #ASeQelZAG61mxmosVM by 7thDayHeathen@mastodon.world
2023-02-13T22:48:44Z
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@atomicpoetLike I can't boost this enough! This was a great post and wonderful way to break down the core challenges and goals for the #Fediverse and the average pain points for #newusers joining #Mastodon. I was able to easily "self medicate" my pain points, but I know many people, especially those coming from other social media platforms, will not be able to do that so your advice is on target. 👏👏👏
(DIR) Post #ASeQqr0hqK6LK6SwvA by tiago@social.skewed.de
2023-02-13T22:50:54Z
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@ramsey @atomicpoet @Vyen Not caring for the same principles is not the same as simply “not caring” in general. Someone might think that searching and indexing are for the greater good, which they care about.
(DIR) Post #ASeRmxcVQUaCcPqzvE by ramsey@phpc.social
2023-02-13T23:01:20Z
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@tiago @atomicpoet @Vyen I guess I’ve been misinterpreting the phrase. 🙂