Post ASe68FbNZFB1Th4cRk by krisnelson@legal.social
(DIR) More posts by krisnelson@legal.social
(DIR) Post #ASdWFvea1RDVZlvt0S by futurebird@sauropods.win
2023-02-13T10:45:00Z
0 likes, 2 repeats
Amongst a flurry of questionable bills being introduced in American states recently, a new piece of legislation in Montana would prevent scientific theories from being taught in schools. I tried to warn you this would be next.https://www.iflscience.com/new-montana-bill-would-prevent-schools-teaching-scientific-theories-67451
(DIR) Post #ASdb2hvoEFxN1XVSQC by jessica@mk.absturztau.be
2023-02-13T13:10:19.142Z
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@futurebird@sauropods.win at this point I think they want to ban learning
(DIR) Post #ASe68F5TTrejsk98iW by Lily_and_Frog@home.social
2023-02-13T12:00:44Z
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@futurebird well, that will make the teaching of chemistry very challenging."Here is the periodic table. Yeah, I know, I had to blank some info off it. So, the elements here in group 1 (I can't legally tell you why they are in group 1) will react with those in group 7. (Again, I can't tell you why) Group 8 are non reactive, but I won't tell you why either before consulting my lawyers. Now, hang on, I'll check again with my lawyers whether or not I can explain the, err, numbers here in bold."
(DIR) Post #ASe68FbNZFB1Th4cRk by krisnelson@legal.social
2023-02-13T15:47:30Z
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@Lily_and_Frog @futurebird I wonder if targeting science (again—see also anti-evolution) will make the impact of bans on teaching “CRT” etc. more obviously bad to people who still don’t see them as terribly problematic? Because what you described re the periodic table is a lot like trying to teach US history without talking about race: causal relationships between events become mysterious and inexplicable.
(DIR) Post #ASe68G3Nt7ZusYAz68 by Hyolobrika@berserker.town
2023-02-13T18:58:26Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@krisnelson @Lily_and_Frog @futurebird They're not the same thing though. Science is based on objectivity, whereas CRT is explicitly anti-objective from what I've seen.
(DIR) Post #ASe7Tzw8agmFDaiVdI by Hyolobrika@berserker.town
2023-02-13T19:13:34Z
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@krisnelson @Lily_and_Frog @futurebird Oops. Forgot to source the image: https://www.bera.ac.uk/publication/critical-race-theory-crt
(DIR) Post #ASeCb4lZX4MLzjyA1A by tonic@qoto.org
2023-02-13T20:10:54Z
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@Hyolobrika @krisnelson @Lily_and_Frog @futurebird it’s not anti science but it can be anti racist which why it makes you uncomfortable 😆😆😆
(DIR) Post #ASeGHPWr1lQcPixo3s by teknomunk@apogee.polaris-1.work
2023-02-13T20:52:26Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@futurebird While this is concerning (in that legislatures and not parents are dictating what is to be taught), the article extends the alarmism to areas where it isn't warranted.The bill defines a term "scientific fact" as an observable and repeatable phenomenon and a separate term "scientific theory" as evething else, then proceeds to say only the observable and repeatable "scientific fact" should be taught K-12.I think that directly observable, repeatable science demonstrations is a superior way of teaching science. I think the bill's reuse of the term "scientific theory" with a definition different than the definition used by the scientific community is going to cause confuaion at best. I am aware there will be pushes to exclude certain topics from schools for political reasons (and from more than the right).And I think the way the article doesn't even touch on the difference between legal language and scientific language, and throws a directly observable and repeatble phenomenon (gravity) into the list of things likely to be banned does a disservice to the readers while trying to score cheap political points.
(DIR) Post #ASeHPuUVtVjAiEU9lA by futurebird@sauropods.win
2023-02-13T20:56:05Z
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@teknomunk This is about banning evolution. Don’t kid yourself.
(DIR) Post #ASeHPyM9WXPshSbXHc by teknomunk@apogee.polaris-1.work
2023-02-13T21:05:08Z
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@futurebird Do you also have an issue with people being fired or suspended for benign religious expressions while in school or do you only get up in arms when the sacred cow "evolution" is at stake?
(DIR) Post #ASeHgDe2Rv46kXiXT6 by necedema@kolektiva.social
2023-02-13T21:05:51Z
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@teknomunk After everything that has happened, you'll still politely carry water for literal fascists? Absolutely shameful.
(DIR) Post #ASeHgENPjDMT1GwmC8 by teknomunk@apogee.polaris-1.work
2023-02-13T21:08:07Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@necedema > people I disagree with are literally hitlerI can see why you have no trouble at all convincing them of the errors of their ways.
(DIR) Post #ASeHu7Uy67zlk26T0S by teknomunk@apogee.polaris-1.work
2023-02-13T21:10:37Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@necedema If you position is correct, you shouldn't have to stoop to name-calling, lying or deceit.
(DIR) Post #ASeK83cRWBQHfjNByK by EvilSandmich@poa.st
2023-02-13T21:35:36.733394Z
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@teknomunk >This is about banning evolutionOh yeah, people like sauropods.win/@futurebird are totally in to evolution, except when that plane is about to land at the "Human Evolution" airport and they pull up on the stick as hard as they can. It's tiresome, it's obvious this about trannies and other crotch-rot.
(DIR) Post #ASeNlV4jfZwXyz6e48 by CStamp@mastodon.social
2023-02-13T21:34:16Z
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@teknomunk You wouldn't be posting here if it weren't for science. Dumbing down an education system is how every fascist government keeps its people governable. First thing that happens in every coup is to get rid of educated people who might not toe the line. Religion belongs in church, science needs to be taught in schools, and any church that is afraid of science is a really crappy religion whose purpose it is to oppress its followers for the power & wealth of those at the top.
(DIR) Post #ASeNlVc3fgb9eKhG0O by teknomunk@apogee.polaris-1.work
2023-02-13T22:16:17Z
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@CStamp > You wouldn't be posting here if it weren't for science.I'll ignore that there isn't a parallel universe without our current scientific achievements that can be observed for comparison. I'll also ignore that you are insinuating that I am a hypocrite for using a technological product while also being sympathetic with those people holding religious beliefs.> Dumbing down an education system is how every fascist government keeps its people governable. First thing that happens in every coup is to get rid of educated people who might not toe the line.The first thing that happens is those elements that would threaten the new order are disposed of, which as often as not includes those radical academics that helped facilitate the overthrow in the first place. Of course, religious types are not spared either.This occurs with every violent overthrow, not just those you call fascist, including those said to be done in the name of spreading democracy.> Religion belongs in church, science needs to be taught in schools, and any church that is afraid of science is a really crappy religion whose purpose it is to oppress its followers for the power & wealth of those at the top.Insinuating that the only reason someone would not like teachings that call you wrong is that they are greedy and power hungry is very disengenuous. I would take you more serious if you didn't stoop to this sort of thing and had at least a passing familiarity with logic and rhetoric (the art of presenting a persuasive argument).
(DIR) Post #ASeOamTSjzd2iG7mSm by Lily_and_Frog@home.social
2023-02-13T22:24:16Z
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@Hyolobrika @krisnelson @futurebird Objective: refers to something (an "object") outside of people (people are "subjects"). So by "objective", we mean the characteristics of an object on which everyone can agree (assuming they are acting in good faith).Subjective: refers to what goes inside someone's (a subject) mind, such as feelings and emotions.Something "subjective" is not less valid than something "objective". Unless you're a psychopath and want to breed more psychopaths.
(DIR) Post #ASeSYZ5FxG0sQ907w8 by Hyolobrika@berserker.town
2023-02-13T23:09:56Z
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@Lily_and_Frog @krisnelson @futurebird The stuff about "not representing one singular truth or reality" though. Maybe "anti-truth" would have been better word for it. I'm not against teaching subjective things such as art that the students want to learn. I am however against *mandatory* classes without any objective component that tell students they are fundamentally bad due to the colour of their skin.
(DIR) Post #ASeSsjYYjABGh0KB9c by futurebird@sauropods.win
2023-02-13T23:13:00Z
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@Hyolobrika @Lily_and_Frog @krisnelson If you teach history but skip black history you will precisely "tell students they are fundamentally bad due to the colour of their skin" how else are black students meant to understand the obvious disparities that exist at present with no other context. Glad you are against that.
(DIR) Post #ASeXB9bX1JGUVYkn3o by Hyolobrika@berserker.town
2023-02-13T23:16:08Z
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@futurebird @Lily_and_Frog @krisnelson I'm not suggesting skipping black history. Other than that I don't know what you mean.
(DIR) Post #ASecB53ERrdi9oUjRo by Lily_and_Frog@home.social
2023-02-14T00:45:52Z
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@Hyolobrika @krisnelson @futurebird People experience suffering different ways, therefore when it comes to personal lived experience, there are many truths. It's self explanatory and quite uncontroversial.
(DIR) Post #ASehgoRwCvLXhq07wu by gtsteel@kolektiva.social
2023-02-14T01:59:33Z
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@Hyolobrika @Lily_and_Frog @krisnelson @futurebirdThe previous phase of the Right's book banning campaign was to flood the textbook market with misinformation, both though promoting sloppy research and through deliberate fakes. These materials try to hide the connections between racism and capitalism by ignoring actual history and blaming the existence on certain lineages of people being born evil and predestined to perpetrate it.Not only do these books displace the real ones, but they provide a strawman to use when thying to sell the second phase of removing black history books entirely.https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/07/dehumanizing-condescension-white-fragility/614146/
(DIR) Post #ASfTNFlti9N2S44mq8 by Hyolobrika@berserker.town
2023-02-14T10:53:47Z
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@Lily_and_Frog @krisnelson @futurebird But there's a difference between saying "this is how I feel" and demanding that other people understand and not question your feeling that they are evil that's not based on fact.
(DIR) Post #ASfTbi8D4BbcSjPG0u by Hyolobrika@berserker.town
2023-02-14T10:56:18Z
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@gtsteel @Lily_and_Frog @krisnelson @futurebird I think any book called "$race Fragility" is very clearly racist. Which is fine if you want to teach your kids that, but don't force it on other people's kids through the school system.
(DIR) Post #ASfYP6moaXcgw0D28m by Lily_and_Frog@home.social
2023-02-14T11:39:27Z
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@Hyolobrika @krisnelson @futurebird I don't know, but in my every day life (unrelated to racism) anyone who doesn't understand, won't make the effort to understand or question my or other people's feelings are, to put it politely, not a nice person.That's actually the definition of a psychopath, or "toxic personality".Less politely, a pure cunt.
(DIR) Post #ASfdVC1GXoNQfmgmuW by futurebird@sauropods.win
2023-02-14T12:29:56Z
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@Hyolobrika @gtsteel @Lily_and_Frog @krisnelson What do you think race fragility is exactly?
(DIR) Post #ASfis0ejSWJ9rRqf8y by Hyolobrika@berserker.town
2023-02-14T13:47:17Z
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@futurebird @gtsteel @Lily_and_Frog @krisnelson When a race is considered fragile, obviously.
(DIR) Post #ASfs0DqZCNYEfyNIsy by mlevie@stranger.social
2023-02-14T14:48:34Z
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@Hyolobrika @futurebird @Lily_and_Frog @krisnelson the voices of POC ARE the actual experiences of those people. They are no less objective than the experiences of the white people who generally make up a history class. CRT seeks to explain why *objective* disparities continue to exist. And one of the points of the article in the OP was that even in science, the line between “theory” and “fact” is not as clear as the legislators want.
(DIR) Post #ASfxSS1cZqOuWopETw by randrews@somewhy.net
2023-02-14T15:37:11Z
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@Hyolobrika Completely agree!
(DIR) Post #ASg2LAPeA3EheEPQa8 by Hyolobrika@berserker.town
2023-02-14T16:59:29Z
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@mlevie @futurebird @Lily_and_Frog @krisnelson What does "no one singular truth or reality" mean?And if you only listen to the accusers, then what you're doing is not justice.
(DIR) Post #ASg2uuo3f7THfesDI0 by Moon@shitposter.club
2023-02-14T17:32:06.716148Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@Lily_and_Frog @Hyolobrika @krisnelson @futurebird what if i'm the psychopath, is my subjective experience valid
(DIR) Post #ASg3ouwcKtJsJda4fI by opal@ap.maladaptive.art
2023-02-14T17:42:15.758533Z
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the rub is, any objective conclusion is a result of a subjective experience, that's the only blindspot science has unfortunately
(DIR) Post #ASg3tUjfCvhoThhju4 by opal@ap.maladaptive.art
2023-02-14T17:43:05.923641Z
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reproducibility makes up for that in most cases
(DIR) Post #ASgBIxiZHwJ3HfHbgO by Hyolobrika@berserker.town
2023-02-14T18:50:54Z
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@opal @Lily_and_Frog @krisnelson @futurebird True. But in certain circumstances it makes more sense to focus on what our senses tell us than what our emotions tell us.
(DIR) Post #ASgBezL3wV9ogKn7h2 by Hyolobrika@berserker.town
2023-02-14T18:53:52Z
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@Moon @Lily_and_Frog @krisnelson @futurebird No. You get what you give.
(DIR) Post #ASgCGUduWAhyU4UVMW by Lily_and_Frog@home.social
2023-02-14T18:11:48Z
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@Hyolobrika @mlevie @futurebird @krisnelson Okay, imagine there's three ppl in the room. When the first one turns around, the second one punches the third one. (The first one doesn't see it).Obviously, the second one denies punching the third one.There you go. Three different truths, realities. Yet, one punched another.And if the first one refuses to listen the third one, then they are complicit. (Then you'll say "what if the third one lies, huhuhu I'm smart.")
(DIR) Post #ASgCmHKZXxNCSrbOMa by Hyolobrika@berserker.town
2023-02-14T19:05:53Z
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@Lily_and_Frog @mlevie @futurebird @krisnelson I have never understood the modern trend of calling beliefs, opinions, and claims "truths" and "realities".You say "yet, one punched another". What would you call that statement? Because I would call it *truth*.
(DIR) Post #ASgH45MrADKOOHPuvA by mlevie@stranger.social
2023-02-14T19:04:27Z
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@Hyolobrika @futurebird @Lily_and_Frog @krisnelson nobody is being accused of anything. The voice of George Washington is heard in every history class, and the voice of his slaves is not. Without both voices, how can we know history? So I’m not sure what you mean by “only hearing the voice of the accuser.” Isn’t only hearing one voice what is occurring now?
(DIR) Post #ASgJFO8juPdHhoKb6O by Hyolobrika@berserker.town
2023-02-14T20:22:48Z
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@mlevie @futurebird @Lily_and_Frog @krisnelson I realise I may have made a false accusation there.
(DIR) Post #ASgNtjGfAvAgdGWqu0 by mlevie@stranger.social
2023-02-14T20:40:02Z
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@Hyolobrika @Lily_and_Frog @futurebird @krisnelson while I see your point, I don’t think anyone would/should say their “truth” is that the Giants rock or Brussels sprouts taste great. I think, apologies if I speak for others and willing to be corrected, people mean “this is what I have actually experienced (and nobody will hear),” not “this is my subjective opinion and you might have an equally valid other one.”
(DIR) Post #ASgRai2LvWKj861O8O by Lily_and_Frog@home.social
2023-02-14T21:27:01Z
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@Hyolobrika @mlevie @futurebird @krisnelson That's cause I told you. Can person number 1 be so sure?
(DIR) Post #ASgfQayshkWthyT9hw by Lily_and_Frog@home.social
2023-02-14T21:56:54Z
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@mlevie @Hyolobrika @futurebird @krisnelson In my thought experiment, there are indeed many truths, realities that, though "subjective" (going on inside the head of people, the "subjects"), are far more than simple opinions: Person 1 sees a confusing situation. Person 3 sees an agression. These are two different "truths". Most ppl in the same situation would come to the same conclusion.Person three might see a funny situation, but that would make them a cunt.
(DIR) Post #ASgfQbaoQis3bcDRpY by Hyolobrika@berserker.town
2023-02-15T00:43:31Z
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@Lily_and_Frog @mlevie @futurebird @krisnelson I would call those interpretations.
(DIR) Post #AShSdRc1kAeQAdXHbU by Lily_and_Frog@home.social
2023-02-15T09:54:39Z
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@Hyolobrika @mlevie @futurebird @krisnelson You are resisting so much evolving a different view, it's scary. Wanting to "win" at all cost that you make yourself look like a donkey.Of course it's an interpretation. "Truth" and "interpretation" are not mutually exclusive. The fact are still the same: 2 punched 3, 3 is in pain. And 1 doesn't know what happened.If 1 say "you're *interpreting* it as a punch" and does not *investigate* further, then 1 is no better than 2 and is complicit.
(DIR) Post #AShdhOWWGjEVFF2u1Y by Hyolobrika@berserker.town
2023-02-15T11:28:11Z
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@Lily_and_Frog @mlevie @futurebird @krisnelson Or maybe we're having a perfectly fine conversation and you're the one with the ego.How is a new and confusing way of using the English language an "evolution"?I'm going to mute this thread now. It's clearly not productive.
(DIR) Post #AShk4PfskrqVCSmhJw by Lily_and_Frog@home.social
2023-02-15T12:35:01Z
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@Hyolobrika @mlevie @futurebird @krisnelson You have a problem with "many truths". I made a thought experiment showing that there can be "many truths": the truth for 1 is that it's confusing. The truth for 2 and 3 is that 2 punched 3. It's not a matter of "interpretation" because *I'm telling you* and I'm an omniscient narrator. Obviously 1 can *interpret* the situation as confusing, which is a truthful interpretation..I'm right, just admit it. You'll be a better person for it.
(DIR) Post #AShk4RfFMCWfN4VDbk by Lily_and_Frog@home.social
2023-02-15T12:44:09Z
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@Hyolobrika @mlevie @futurebird @krisnelson I can guess your next move: because losing would damage your ego (perhaps you think you're smarter than anyone else?). So you'll shift the goalpost, or perhaps debating the meaning of a single word I used, getting tangled in the syntax, debating the fine points. All that to move away from the original point that teaching chemistry without mentioning atom theory is as stupid as teaching US history without mentioning racism