Post ASZvxDNzgoMjFK4Wvo by tomw@mastodon.social
(DIR) More posts by tomw@mastodon.social
(DIR) Post #ASZiegRI9CneRlRpCK by seldo@alpaca.gold
2023-02-11T16:15:50Z
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You're not stupid for using a framework, and nobody has pulled a fast one on you. https://seldo.com/posts/the_case_for_frameworks
(DIR) Post #ASZj5UxgvcFQfXOARU by kyleshevlin@mastodon.social
2023-02-11T16:20:43Z
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@seldo his article, as are most things that he writes, was very frustrating to read.I honestly don’t know how he has a job some times.
(DIR) Post #ASZjZd7X9u3Of0MP7w by tehviking@ruby.social
2023-02-11T16:26:12Z
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@seldo really good shit. The nuance that this discussion needs and has needed for a long time. Thanks for the effort and care you put into it!
(DIR) Post #ASZkDhsurfu91HdJqa by est@social.emily.news
2023-02-11T16:33:21Z
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@seldo “To understand my explanation I'm afraid I have to delve into evolutionary game theory just for a second.” oh my god did i just read that
(DIR) Post #ASZkKHIA8OvoZRZjCi by ben@mastodon.adida.net
2023-02-11T16:33:32Z
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@seldo thank you for writing this. Right on.
(DIR) Post #ASZkPmHEMPno7IlIau by seldo@alpaca.gold
2023-02-11T16:34:21Z
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@est I'm so sorry.
(DIR) Post #ASZkkulK0WFeVyupN2 by brianleroux@indieweb.social
2023-02-11T16:39:22Z
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@seldo economics indeed but the changing storyline is also well documented (yes that's grifting!)And also ppl need to know how HTML/etc work in order to use React not the other way around.
(DIR) Post #ASZlGNFu7VN1rWDmlc by seldo@alpaca.gold
2023-02-11T16:45:11Z
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@brianleroux I do not think everybody is using React because Guillermo is just really, really persuasive.
(DIR) Post #ASZlMgqGD9mGLVEqDg by colinaut@dice.camp
2023-02-11T16:45:31Z
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@seldo this is really good. It hits on the fact that the web dev game has always been a constantly evolving race for doing things better — but what defines better (and to whom) is really dependent on situation, and that there are always trade offs in whatever tool you use.
(DIR) Post #ASZlSPlabryZ7omcj2 by brianleroux@indieweb.social
2023-02-11T16:46:06Z
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@seldo I didn't say that did I?!
(DIR) Post #ASZlj4eCNqr2Y2Go7c by seldo@alpaca.gold
2023-02-11T16:50:21Z
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@brianleroux I just don't think any grifting is involved. People are choosing what works for them.
(DIR) Post #ASZm6sLnkp9TMP0xMm by brianleroux@indieweb.social
2023-02-11T16:54:33Z
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@seldo well they're definitely being deliberately misleading to a large audience of less experienced devs (not just one individual either) and to me that's not professional behavior whether it works for them or not. Which, given the outcomes esp in performance and a11y: not working actually. Not an opinion these are all super well documented claims.
(DIR) Post #ASZmFYqZdbR9TdY81Y by seldo@alpaca.gold
2023-02-11T16:56:13Z
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@brianleroux I just don't believe it. I don't think they're being deliberately misleading. I don't think devs, experienced or otherwise, are being misled. The outcomes in performance and accessibility are unfortunate by-products of capitalism and not because people are dumb.
(DIR) Post #ASZmbWVl0E3ubUHjfc by brianleroux@indieweb.social
2023-02-11T16:59:57Z
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@seldo I don't think anyone is dumb given how long it's been going on they definitely are aware of the outcomes. Like nobody is using the Nintendo eStore or Home Depot or any of the other innumerable bad web experiences we all suffer daily thinking "wow this great professional work". They absolutely know the outputs are garbage and they sell it as otherwise usually justified by the lie it's necessary because it's popular.
(DIR) Post #ASZmu18hrm9Qo9K1U8 by seldo@alpaca.gold
2023-02-11T17:03:15Z
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@brianleroux Again, I simply do not believe any of that is true. The people who produce those web experiences are doing the best they can with the resources they have and are not justifying it because it's popular, they know it's the best they can do in the time they've been given to do it and the number of colleagues they have. I don't need to assume ill intent to explain what I'm seeing.
(DIR) Post #ASZn1nbQ51Vz8mSl9s by bruce_korb@mstdn.social
2023-02-11T17:04:09Z
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@seldo Wherever it is that frames that fluctuate in size every few seconds comes from, that technique can go straight to Hades. It's hard enough to read on a CRT/LED screen, but having text jumping all over every few seconds was a terrible idea. The inventor should head to Hades with his idea.
(DIR) Post #ASZnH4anC6hiB4S89o by brianleroux@indieweb.social
2023-02-11T17:07:39Z
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@seldo I'm not blaming devs and agree ppl are doing the best they can w the information they've got. They are being mislead, again that's clearly documented, and it's way past time we excuse unprofessional outputs. It's ok to expect better, and do better by web consumers and creators alike.
(DIR) Post #ASZnNpFgczmecwngvo by bendelarre@mastodon.social
2023-02-11T17:08:16Z
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@seldo @brianleroux I think that's fair and have seen it in play in orgs I work with. "This is what we know and can move fastest with" is always the baseline reasoning.That doesn't mean that its the right choice in the long run. The oil comparison is apt, we all know it's bad, we all know there are better alternatives and yet many of us continue to abuse our environment for what people keep selling us is easy and fast.Doesn't make it right, we just need to keep arguing to open people's eyes!
(DIR) Post #ASZnyKHMkOlJHTzUES by tmcw@mastodon.social
2023-02-11T17:15:26Z
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@seldo how dare you write something so reasonable and true
(DIR) Post #ASZo5aSF0QqLTWXWeu by seldo@alpaca.gold
2023-02-11T17:16:05Z
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@tmcw my apologies, I'll redraft to be more yelly
(DIR) Post #ASZoDCAVBX6kTBs1XU by ak@mastodon.social
2023-02-11T17:17:02Z
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@seldo I agree with the "we need better frameworks" part. To go beyond what the ecosystem gives you out of the box requires above-average levels of skill, knowledge, product instrumentation, and organizational pull to prioritize foundational R&D work. Like in most things, solutions that only work for early-adopters/high-skill users don't cross the chasm into mass adoption.
(DIR) Post #ASZoKRLh8tqhZvYnp2 by ShaunMcNamee@hachyderm.io
2023-02-11T17:18:06Z
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@seldo I both agree with this, and am happy to meet another QC reader in the wild.
(DIR) Post #ASZoQqUcZRsbIZn2Lw by pinchito@mastodon.social
2023-02-11T17:18:22Z
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@seldo Just to add another argument: React *can* be made to be lean and fast. Most developers just don't care. That is why it uses (the enormously inefficient) Next.js. I just purged Next.js from a mid-size webapp and now it flies 😊
(DIR) Post #ASZoWj6SxSR07MIOsS by seldo@alpaca.gold
2023-02-11T17:21:07Z
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@ShaunMcNamee we the few, the proud etc
(DIR) Post #ASZoviVsI09DWj642K by jgg@qoto.org
2023-02-11T17:26:09Z
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@seldo There was a time when the C language was new, and people worried about its performance. Assembly is faster, uses less memory and disk resources, so, why use C? Because it is easier? That kind of debate happens every time a new, higher level language is created. Because true, if getting the best performance is the only relevant feature of your application, you shouldn't be using frameworks, or JavaScript, or HTML, or C. You should be using assembly. But nearly nobody does that. Why? Because the most important feature is nearly always, um, features. All those features your clients ask for. And you can't give all those features if you do with assembly. Not in your life, not on your client's budget.Use the right tool for the job. Whatever it is. Nothing is forbidden if goals are meet.
(DIR) Post #ASZp7zstWrjasUih4S by McNeely@indieweb.social
2023-02-11T17:28:26Z
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@seldo love the focus on frameworks as an answer not a problem. If frameworks were the issue why would they have proliferated across different languages? Focusing on improving the tradeoffs is the way we improve the entire ecosystem.
(DIR) Post #ASZpRi6zJj6BY4iCh6 by developit@mastodon.social
2023-02-11T17:31:56Z
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@seldo I like the economic explanation of this, as it does start to get at the crux of the framework debate. It also is a reasonably good description of the rationale by which Preact came to exist, and for it's continued evolution & directional choices. Sometimes folks wonder why we invest in a given area/direction - this economic model is effectively the metaphor we use. Provide framework features that maximize developer efficacy, but only when these have minimal performance impact.
(DIR) Post #ASZrBRkGbE3y41SNhA by xavdid@mastodon.social
2023-02-11T17:49:48Z
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@seldo this is a great post! I like the framing a lot.
(DIR) Post #ASZrIzfUsAKDIkpBEe by sarajw@front-end.social
2023-02-11T17:52:01Z
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@seldo I needed this article. Thank you.
(DIR) Post #ASZuZklVpnbZrlJzP6 by stucox@mastodon.online
2023-02-11T18:29:20Z
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@seldo @brianleroux Agree — back when "SPA frameworks for apps, static HTML/CSS/JS for sites" was the mantra, I still struggled to avoid being accessory to 50MB of images and autoplaying videos being forced upon users of marketing sites.
(DIR) Post #ASZvBxcYUD3gk0LmqG by remotesynth@mastodon.xyz
2023-02-11T18:32:28Z
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@brianleroux @seldo I understand your perspective and agree Alex's article can be read as aggressive (though I didn't take it as calling developers stupid).However, I think you recognize and then undersell the impact of momentum/network effects. We trained/hired lots of new devs in the last decade and many only ever learned React. I've met folks who don't know how to build web sites without it or who used it on large projects where it was wholly unnecessary because they thought they had to.
(DIR) Post #ASZvByNheulx6EPRKa by seldo@alpaca.gold
2023-02-11T18:35:24Z
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@remotesynth @brianleroux The economics of the situation you're describing is: they don't have time to learn some other way. It's the same effect described differently.
(DIR) Post #ASZvxDNzgoMjFK4Wvo by tomw@mastodon.social
2023-02-11T18:44:53Z
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@seldo I really dislike this particular rhetorical trick:"I think thing is bad""How terrible of you to say users of thing are bad/wrong/stupid"
(DIR) Post #ASZw84UJ74IgpnCZhw by seldo@alpaca.gold
2023-02-11T18:46:52Z
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@tomw If you post, over and over, that a bunch of fast talkers have managed to fool me through lies into using something, I am going to take that as you calling me stupid.
(DIR) Post #ASZwLPDvKTaGuStfUG by jenniferplusplus@tech.lgbt
2023-02-11T18:49:14Z
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@seldo I think to the extent the hawk/dove game applies here, the limited resource that they're competing for isn't browser processing time, it's developer attention. But I don't think it is all that applicable, because as you say these are economic choices in an economic system, not a game.That economy exists in an environment. Degraded performance or accessibility is a negative externality, where the cost is born by the whole environment. Not unlike pollution. Time spent learning can be thought of as a capital investment. And there's a large information asymmetry between Facebook and all other users of React. The end result of that is a highly distorted market for developer attention. Those distortions are good for Facebook and the React team, and bad for other developers and the public.You're right of course, that doesn't make those other developers bad or foolish. Not any more than buying a car to get around car-oriented cities makes people bad or foolish.
(DIR) Post #ASZwWOXIE4iRxkCFiy by tomw@mastodon.social
2023-02-11T18:51:19Z
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@seldo You are taking a criticism of firstly software and secondly that software's developers/promoters, and sleight-of-handing it into "calling React users stupid".
(DIR) Post #ASZwfQBhSEBZgwOuoa by stilkov@innoq.social
2023-02-11T18:52:52Z
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@seldo I am 100 % in camp Alex, but still enjoyed this
(DIR) Post #ASZwmd2G5LEVZ6QBeq by seldo@alpaca.gold
2023-02-11T18:54:14Z
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@tomw I don't know how to tell you that my feelings are valid whether you agree with them or not.
(DIR) Post #ASZxANneNlmLGLuotM by jeremystucki@vis.social
2023-02-11T18:58:30Z
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@seldo Yes! I‘ve only ever worked on small teams and React just made us much more productive than anything else we‘ve used or tried to build ourselves. We chose it because it made our lives easier, which allowed us to spend more time on actual UX.That said, I’m not so sure about its trajectory at the moment, and I‘m happy that viable alternatives are getting more traction.
(DIR) Post #ASZxPu1OrgNfXZkNsm by tomw@mastodon.social
2023-02-11T19:01:23Z
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@seldo I didn't say anything about your feelings.
(DIR) Post #ASZxXFwXl7RXYYywca by gd@ruby.social
2023-02-11T19:02:42Z
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@seldo If LinkedIn is in your most frequented websites list you clearly make a lot of horrible life choices.
(DIR) Post #ASZxeCqlepupzSauxM by gd@ruby.social
2023-02-11T19:03:39Z
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@seldo @brianleroux No, they are not doing the best they can with the resources they have."Let's send a 20MB payload to the web client that then draws a 12K webpage! I'm computer scientist!"
(DIR) Post #ASZz3OPNvAA921MNoe by brandonscript@appdot.net
2023-02-11T19:19:30Z
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@seldo this made me go from "hm, OK I'll keep reading" to XKCD 386 to "oh, oh. I see. Yeah."I am known for saying "React makes hard things easy and easy things hard" quite often, and despite my love for it, I wish there were a lot of easy things that were still easy.I do wonder if *more* frameworks is really the answer, or if it is *more interoperability* and flexibility between them?Or maybe we just need to make React better.Very thoughtful either way.
(DIR) Post #ASa2Fulbjr8Yj8PvEW by philsherry@home.social
2023-02-11T19:55:35Z
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@seldo > “I feel like he ends up calling developers stupid … and [I] dislike being called stupid.”He… didn’t. But, this seems to be one of those issues where people are generally going to fall on one side or the other, and they’ll defend their view quite personally.
(DIR) Post #ASa2MwdBCrSWXFpLd2 by seldo@alpaca.gold
2023-02-11T19:56:13Z
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@philsherry As I've told others, my feelings are true whether or not you agree.
(DIR) Post #ASa2UE7wYR2kpGgmh6 by philsherry@home.social
2023-02-11T19:56:01Z
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@seldo > “I also think developers aren't stupid, so they know that they are making these trade-offs when they pick React. So why do they?”Because they want to work, so they learn what’s popular with who’s hiring and recruiters are hiring “React developers” for ridiculous sums of money. This is also why a lot of them skip straight past learning HTML and CSS properly, and why they have no clue about accessibility.
(DIR) Post #ASa2UEylO3IJT5Oy1Y by seldo@alpaca.gold
2023-02-11T19:56:57Z
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@philsherry So you're saying the economics of the situation is to blame? I agree.
(DIR) Post #ASa3UkCZOxnOG2fD1s by ototoi@piaille.fr
2023-02-11T20:09:21Z
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@seldo thank you 🙏
(DIR) Post #ASa44AoQSKtwvNGRuq by steveworkman@webperf.social
2023-02-11T20:15:48Z
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@seldo great read Laurie, though I believe that Frameworks that are more efficient, developer friendly, have a good ecosystem and make you faster exist (looking at you, Vue3+Vite) but there are significant detractors in the community that pull attention away from them. I would love for everyone to get along, but that would involve people conceeding that React isn't the best thing out there, and most are unwilling to even look
(DIR) Post #ASa4jdVWfmQVnHC9tw by morgan@noc.social
2023-02-11T20:23:03Z
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@seldo Frameworks as developer aids aren’t bad. Bad frameworks are as bad as good frameworks used improperly. I think that’s pretty much the gist of this debate.“You have to be better at something that makes developers faster, and it has to be a LOT faster ... No framework has hit that threshold ….”JQuery (in its heyday) approached this better than most, with key aspects now in the native browser API. I’m happy to leverage that kind of evolution while creating bespoke solutions as needed.
(DIR) Post #ASaAHYsqrzq34P6N8K by isntitvacant@hachyderm.io
2023-02-11T21:25:27Z
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@seldo You got my goat, Laurie. It was just here yesterday, peacefully bleating and chewing on a tire. 😅(Put more usefully: there are multiple lines of discourse leading out from Alex's original post, of which "throw out all web frameworks" is probably the least useful. However – anecdotally, & from a few angles! – I agree with Alex that the rise of React as the "thin waist" of frontend development knowledge puts websites on a bad footing compared to mobile apps.)
(DIR) Post #ASaBFwukeZyeyUmktM by nk@xoxo.zone
2023-02-11T21:35:36Z
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I think the most important takeaway from @seldo post https://alpaca.gold/@seldo/109846996614178768 is that we both check QC every day
(DIR) Post #ASaHBTScoq7EBzsYBE by Rickymarou@mas.to
2023-02-11T22:42:50Z
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@seldo 🤯🤯🤯
(DIR) Post #ASaImUXVs2iCCuNdbc by slightlyoff@toot.cafe
2023-02-11T23:00:40Z
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@seldo it sure would be cool if you didn't imply that I said people were stupid when, in fact, I only suggested they were mislead.
(DIR) Post #ASaKpvf9gQSd6binx2 by timsev@mastodon.social
2023-02-11T23:23:48Z
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@seldo Absolutely love this article. I do have one point of critique: as you introduce economics as a reason why React is popular, I do think SPAs also come with a economic cost: statefulness. Where a traditional server-side apps are inheritly stateless (with some workarounds to mimick state), SPAs are inherently stateful, creating counterproductive problems. Because of that, I wonder how much of a productive boost they really are. What do you think?
(DIR) Post #ASaMxhQmgFR7Bvpgpc by kapowaz@mastodon.social
2023-02-11T23:47:29Z
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@seldo very nicely put. This dispassionately addresses some of the issues I had with the initial article which I felt I couldn’t articulate without just criticising the passionate parts of what Alex wrote.
(DIR) Post #ASaOBDwDEQXRjEXtqK by seldo@alpaca.gold
2023-02-12T00:01:17Z
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@slightlyoff Telling people they were misled even though the downsides are obvious is the same as calling them stupid.
(DIR) Post #ASaRnCwjfNMxWIau9o by slightlyoff@toot.cafe
2023-02-12T00:41:41Z
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@seldo did I say the downsides are obvious? I've consistently pointed at the ways they are (un)consciously obscured by privilege, dogma, marketing, and management blinders. Never have I called people taken in "stupid".It reads to me like you're keen to assign malice when, in fact, it's the teams on the wrong end of all this that I feel for – and their users.
(DIR) Post #ASaTIPKxkPw2seMq6i by developit@mastodon.social
2023-02-12T00:58:28Z
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@seldo @slightlyoff FWIW this was part of your article I did not agree with. Framework authors are, more than anyone else, aware of how their decisions impact performance. They have the data (via issues) and understand the causal pathway because they created or maintain it.Where your hawk/dove analogy breaks down is that it assumes devs (but framework authors in particular) are inherently hawks. They are not, they are only _incentivized_ to be hawks.
(DIR) Post #ASaUIeGSLeHT8AwELY by seldo@alpaca.gold
2023-02-12T01:09:48Z
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@slightlyoff If you don't wish to cop to the tone of the piece being deeply condescending feel free, but as the replies to me indicate, the impression that you are talking down to developers is widely shared.
(DIR) Post #ASaUdsccA9wvjzQVai by slightlyoff@toot.cafe
2023-02-12T01:13:35Z
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@seldo I'm fine with it being condescending towards the unrepentant complexity merchants. I do not agree it is condescending towards those who have been taken in, and therefore suggest you are misrepresenting me while not even understanding the piece.The framing of a market failure, not a personal one, argues against the narrative you're spinning. Market failures are not individual actions. They exist because reasonable people *cannot* have better information (without market intervention).
(DIR) Post #ASaVbihWB4HyLYFoJM by slightlyoff@toot.cafe
2023-02-12T01:15:18Z
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@seldo If, for some reason, you need to white-knight for...[ checks notes ] ...Facebook and Vercel....weird flex but OK? But don't put words in my mouth.
(DIR) Post #ASaVbjAaQzXbnhr1cW by seldo@alpaca.gold
2023-02-12T01:24:30Z
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@slightlyoff Being condescending to me directly does not persuade me that I was misinterpreting the tone of the piece.
(DIR) Post #ASaWBZTByYhI8reG6y by slightlyoff@toot.cafe
2023-02-12T01:30:50Z
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@seldo It's unfortunate that you've misunderstood the point of the piece to the extent that you feel a need to mischaracterize me, even after being directly corrected.Will just leave it there.
(DIR) Post #ASaYtszax5uXLA3yrI by mattdarveniza@mastodon.social
2023-02-12T02:01:14Z
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@seldo Laurie this is too reasonable of a take, that’s not what the (No)JavaScript community is about.
(DIR) Post #ASabadExasrOqWlE5A by devongovett@mastodon.social
2023-02-12T02:31:26Z
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@seldo yep, this is exactly right. Great post!
(DIR) Post #ASadxaNqa4Z8YTzTMG by agocke@hachyderm.io
2023-02-12T02:57:44Z
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@seldo @brianleroux You're stating this like it's facially ridiculous, but I don't see why it is. "Persuasive" not just meaning personally persuasive, but persuasive with the backing and credibility of Facebook? This does not seem particularly far-fetched.
(DIR) Post #ASahBSsTaIAxBzcuXY by seldo@alpaca.gold
2023-02-12T03:34:14Z
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@agocke @brianleroux Millions and million of developers are using React. In surveys I run they report high satisfaction with React. They're not just using it because they were impressed with it, or because somebody told them to. Developers really like React, and I have thousands of data points to prove it.
(DIR) Post #ASahrRDi8ZDyDLZbt2 by agocke@hachyderm.io
2023-02-12T03:41:28Z
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@seldo @brianleroux Fair enough, but I think it's a point you have to argue with data! Not immediately obvious.
(DIR) Post #ASamf2P15AWrXVlfeK by borland@mastodon.nz
2023-02-12T04:35:34Z
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@seldo an excellent article.I definitely agree with you re the core premise: React and other big frameworks like it are bad for end users (perf, resource use, etc) but in return are good for developers (faster iteration, fewer below level bugs). The bit people like Alex miss is that - absent frameworks - we wouldn’t end up with a world of perfect fast frontend code… rather, we would end up with *far* more limited apps, and fewer of them.
(DIR) Post #ASau4lxbXHBDkmAGGm by Eramdam@octodon.social
2023-02-12T05:58:34Z
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@seldo "the world's repository of open source JavaScript software" is this bit missing a word?
(DIR) Post #ASauK1u6XYTdXrnp9U by nmn@indieweb.social
2023-02-12T06:01:08Z
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@seldo thank you! Thank you!You are much more kind to Alex Russel than I would be but this a perfect take on what makes React great.The thing I still want to emphasise is that despite what is being said today, React was a big improvement for *users* when it initially gained traction. Angular 1.x was much slower and didn’t support SSR. React was faster and supported SSR from day 1.
(DIR) Post #ASavjnJlUewxn4ee36 by graue@social.coop
2023-02-12T06:17:13Z
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@seldo Thank you for writing this.Thank you especially for pointing out the economic factors. That's the part that has been driving me crazy; to the extent that it's not profitable to invest in giving some users a good experience, that is not a technical problem, it's a social one.Also really perceptive to tease out the implication that devs choosing frameworks like React are stupid and address that directly. This is an excellent intervention in what risked becoming a toxic discourse.
(DIR) Post #ASb2pdHARQEG3xAd1c by joshhunt@hachyderm.io
2023-02-12T07:36:41Z
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@seldo maybe a minor point, but I would disagree that most of those websites “should” be a single page app (and I disagree that login == SPA). I think new vs old Reddit (not in your list) is an example of where SPA doesn’t really bring anything to the table.
(DIR) Post #ASb4ilrmIsT2aS9PJA by keithjgrant@front-end.social
2023-02-12T07:57:51Z
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@seldo OMG YES. Thank you for putting this all to words so clearly.
(DIR) Post #ASblUCtpoCBC78PkvY by brianleroux@indieweb.social
2023-02-12T15:26:51Z
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@agocke @seldo I didn't see the part where anyone was debating devs like it or use it. The points made by Alex and others are concerned with the poor outputs and the advocates changing their stories. (See your colleagues Zach's post about React criticism for ex.)
(DIR) Post #ASblUDVlXAWM0mA33A by seldo@alpaca.gold
2023-02-12T15:57:04Z
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@brianleroux @agocke The flaw in Alex's argument is that he focuses only on the (admittedly bad!) results React gets for low-power mobile devices. My point is that developers are not *unaware* of the bad outcomes, they like React *despite* the bad outcomes, so let's look at why. The idea that developers cannot see that bad outcomes, poor creatures, only Alex can, is why the whole thing comes off as insulting.
(DIR) Post #ASblb7VCH4NNOxBdaK by seldo@alpaca.gold
2023-02-12T15:58:07Z
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@brianleroux @agocke We, the developers of the world, are aware that we are making a trade-off and we are making it anyway, so continuing to yell at us that the trade-offs we knowingly made were bad is not going to do anything but get us annoyed. We KNOW.
(DIR) Post #ASbljhDXN0M4UF12v2 by brianleroux@indieweb.social
2023-02-12T15:59:46Z
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@seldo @agocke so are we supposed to pretend it's good and bad web experiences are good for consumers?
(DIR) Post #ASblwmpVoXc5es1KCm by seldo@alpaca.gold
2023-02-12T16:02:18Z
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@brianleroux @agocke The fundamental point of disagreement between Alex and I is that he believes devs cannot possibly know how bad the outcomes are, or they wouldn't make these decisions, and I believe they do.My position is easier to believe, because for Alex to be right everyone has to misunderstand the world *except* Alex, but for me to be right the only person misunderstanding the situation needs to be Alex.
(DIR) Post #ASbm5bHO7yKqRRGISW by seldo@alpaca.gold
2023-02-12T16:03:52Z
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@brianleroux @agocke Did you read my post? I'm not saying it's good. I'm saying the bad outcome we're looking at is the inevitable outcome of capitalism. We don't have to like it, but it's impossible to avoid.
(DIR) Post #ASbmE78nYFBzZhItNI by brianleroux@indieweb.social
2023-02-12T16:05:21Z
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@seldo @agocke ok so everyone agrees the outputs are poor, and the web consumer experience is being damaged. That's good we agree at least. Humiliating people is a poor way to convince them to change. I agree with that. Excusing it is also a poor way to affect change. I try, and fail, to lead by example. I get a lot of toxic stuff thrown at me by smug fans gleeful in their changing storyline. What to do?
(DIR) Post #ASbmKgVYyCEb0A5Jrc by ThePaulMcBride@indieweb.social
2023-02-12T16:03:57Z
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@brianleroux @seldo @agocke I think @seldo is saying that shaming developers or treating like they don’t know what they are doing doesn’t make things any better for consumers either.
(DIR) Post #ASbmKh0P7Wu8XoVww4 by seldo@alpaca.gold
2023-02-12T16:05:28Z
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@ThePaulMcBride @brianleroux @agocke Exactly. Our energy would be better spent meeting them where they are -- using frameworks by the millions, making rich apps -- and reduce the harm by making the frameworks better. Write something they like *better* than React rather than just telling them it's bad.
(DIR) Post #ASbmRNO8SHsXjInkP2 by jalcine@todon.eu
2023-02-12T16:06:00Z
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@seldo @brianleroux @agockeAnd yet not much has been made towards change (which I think and have parsed as Alex's point). It doesn't matter if "developers like it" if it makes the lives of end users bad.People seem to love a lot of things despite their harms (i.e: Chick-fil-A, Red Cross, etc). And it does make them feel good when they engage with it. The fixation on making sure "devs are happy" isn't something that's even relevant to the point (of course a framework with the WEIGHT of Facebook and the community that chooses to follow big companies just b/c will be popular and "make people happy", so it's a weak argument to posit); it's a distraction from the underlying point that we work to make things for people and they have to work WELL for them.(Obviously, I'm handwaving away shareholders and upper management that also just gobble whatever comes over the wall of said larger orgs and cases where ex-FB heads go to other companies and force rewrites in React because they can and of their backing).
(DIR) Post #ASbmetVuKE1L84smrQ by seldo@alpaca.gold
2023-02-12T16:10:08Z
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@jalcine @brianleroux @agocke The problem, which is the point of my post, is capitalism. It creates incentives to ship quickly for rich people and ignore the harms to poor people, in software and also in every other damn thing. Yelling at software developers is like yelling at a construction worker that poor people can't afford the house they're building. The solution is build more houses, more quickly, and find a way to do it more cheaply.
(DIR) Post #ASbmn9xx2WfsTJwPei by seldo@alpaca.gold
2023-02-12T16:11:45Z
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@jalcine @brianleroux @agocke Translating that back to software, it means: encourage more people to become devs to drive costs down, make developers ship faster by making frameworks more capable (this is what "developer experience" means, not just making them happy), and make the frameworks produce faster, more efficient websites by default, which makes them more accessible to low power devices.
(DIR) Post #ASbmuK0686CzcYMOe0 by brianleroux@indieweb.social
2023-02-12T16:12:03Z
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@seldo @jalcine @agocke sounds rational so it probably won't work. woo web standards, no build is cheaper than no build! It's true but folks aren't here for truth are they
(DIR) Post #ASbn0rN8y2HqrJG1IG by brianleroux@indieweb.social
2023-02-12T16:06:33Z
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@ThePaulMcBride @seldo @agocke I agree w that and have said as much. I don't think the solution is excusing unprofessional outputs or toxic actors tho either
(DIR) Post #ASbn0rwwouvWeM0c6K by seldo@alpaca.gold
2023-02-12T16:13:12Z
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@brianleroux @ThePaulMcBride @agocke I think calling the outputs "unprofessional" is deeply condescending. A professional has looked at situation, made a tough trade-off, and the result is the output. It's deeply professional, in that it's a compromise made to satisfy every stakeholder to the best of their ability.
(DIR) Post #ASbn6PzffnVJgPve6a by ThePaulMcBride@indieweb.social
2023-02-12T16:13:46Z
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@seldo @brianleroux @agocke fixing the perceived problems with React would be huge too. A lot of things will never be rewritten because it’ll be better for users. However upgrading to a new version of React or Next etc is usually much less work.
(DIR) Post #ASbnDN4AxICSdCLpSq by seldo@alpaca.gold
2023-02-12T16:14:47Z
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@ThePaulMcBride @brianleroux @agocke Also agreed, and the people who make Next have made huge strides in improving accessibility and performance, so I'm not on board with calling them "bad actors" either. They too are doing their best.
(DIR) Post #ASbnKmaIThcjnjuSky by brianleroux@indieweb.social
2023-02-12T16:15:30Z
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@seldo @ThePaulMcBride @agocke respectfully disagree. If a site isn't accessible by default it's not professional.
(DIR) Post #ASbnR5yFJU6dfF7bs0 by cassiozen@hachyderm.io
2023-02-12T16:15:45Z
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@seldo your article is outstanding and to the point!
(DIR) Post #ASbnYMwkazt0LCtHea by seldo@alpaca.gold
2023-02-12T16:16:40Z
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@brianleroux @ThePaulMcBride @agocke We're all just trying our best, Brian.
(DIR) Post #ASbnea6ea5ZGtPU82a by brianleroux@indieweb.social
2023-02-12T16:18:11Z
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@seldo @ThePaulMcBride @agocke the static CSR is the only way to SSR narrative change is only one example but they definitely are trending in the right direction after years of gaslighting
(DIR) Post #ASbnkiWgBoAwkAaHMe by exchgr@mastodon.world
2023-02-12T16:18:31Z
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@seldo @brianleroux @agocke junior developers using the top of the line MacBook Pro supplied by their company on corporate gigabit internet and/or running a dev server on localhost certainly can’t see those outcomes, unless they invest heavily in instrumentation, profiling, observability, regression testing, etc., which many teams are not only unwilling to do, but also unaware of at all. not talking about top sites here
(DIR) Post #ASbnrDxuDEPRzJQDFg by seldo@alpaca.gold
2023-02-12T16:19:25Z
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@brianleroux @ThePaulMcBride @agocke We agree that they are slowly trending in the right direction. I just disagree that their marketing amounts to gaslighting.
(DIR) Post #ASbnzJRJk6cbHc2H9U by brianleroux@indieweb.social
2023-02-12T16:20:49Z
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@seldo @ThePaulMcBride @agocke that's great! Me too.
(DIR) Post #ASbo5V1Nay2WwMqz2G by seldo@alpaca.gold
2023-02-12T16:21:22Z
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@exchgr @brianleroux @agocke I have spent a great deal of time talking to junior devs just coming out of bootcamps and I simply do not believe that they are unaware of the tradeoffs they are making. They are junior so they are both less empowered by the organization to effect change and less experienced at writing things quickly that would be better, so they can do less to ameliorate the bad outcomes, but I refuse to accept they're unaware of them.
(DIR) Post #ASboBrVot4UsQs7rBQ by ak@mastodon.social
2023-02-12T16:22:13Z
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@brianleroux @seldo @agocke Well. One thing that could be done is bring the hammer down w.r.t. enforcing ADA, GDPR, and CCPA on websites until companies throw money at compliance training and potentially licensure/apprenticeship programs.
(DIR) Post #ASboBsCMKuWaYo1pUO by seldo@alpaca.gold
2023-02-12T16:22:42Z
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@ak @brianleroux @agocke Strongly agree. Regulation is an excellent way to curb the worst harms of capitalism.
(DIR) Post #ASboJuhQv9HedOOg40 by agocke@hachyderm.io
2023-02-12T16:25:03Z
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@seldo @brianleroux @ThePaulMcBride well that's clearly not true. Thousands of devs were working hard on crypto garbage to knowingly scam people out of their life savings. Let's not assume everyone is in this profession for good reasons
(DIR) Post #ASboQ06zi8jl9qFukK by brianleroux@indieweb.social
2023-02-12T16:25:25Z
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@seldo @ThePaulMcBride @agocke well they've attacked me directly and indirectly industry wide for saying things they now promote.So that's absolutely my perspective!
(DIR) Post #ASbocNUwaSdHAEMN3w by brianleroux@indieweb.social
2023-02-12T16:27:12Z
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@seldo @exchgr @agocke that makes me optimistic they're open to changing at least
(DIR) Post #ASbojjIHwtSMn1whe4 by brianleroux@indieweb.social
2023-02-12T16:24:09Z
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@ak @seldo @agocke the current state of the web definitely speaks to having professional standards and certification. I hate it but I like the web more. And I sincerely doubt any neutral body would ratify a private company build chain as the way.
(DIR) Post #ASbojjpxvgOYTThb8a by ak@mastodon.social
2023-02-12T16:27:17Z
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@brianleroux @seldo @agocke Product certification is generally the lever you pull when there's "a market for lemons" as Alex called it. It also creates market demand for turnkey certified building blocks.
(DIR) Post #ASbojkP3pCT4EK7cq8 by ak@mastodon.social
2023-02-12T16:27:42Z
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@brianleroux @seldo @agocke ie, framework opportunities
(DIR) Post #ASbojkrQ7l9XeHOH2m by seldo@alpaca.gold
2023-02-12T16:28:26Z
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@ak @brianleroux @agocke Sounds like we are on the same page.
(DIR) Post #ASbos0WtkcxUYtj78i by exchgr@mastodon.world
2023-02-12T16:28:53Z
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@seldo @brianleroux @agocke aware or not, it’s what they tend to do, and so we need more mentorship and apprenticeship, even in the form of pairing/mobbing with more senior devs, to guide them in a better direction. and imo, junior devs shouldn’t be making big architectural decisions like that on their own. if they are, that’s an organizational failing
(DIR) Post #ASboyr73A3oHNntyM4 by seldo@alpaca.gold
2023-02-12T16:29:35Z
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@exchgr @brianleroux @agocke Agreed on all those points.
(DIR) Post #ASbq0WBo1Zqv1XU0FU by jefflembeck@fediverse.jefflembeck.com
2023-02-12T16:47:41Z
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@seldo having been on a few teams now where react was chosen, to terrible results, I’ve found that my explanation of “React is rarely the right too for the job; it’s the right tool for the team” is normally the answer.People know react. That’s how it gets chosen. They’ve gotta move fast and they know it. Why do they know it? Because they used it in the past. They went through with learning it because the places that pay 450k total comp use it.That’s why boot camps teach it.
(DIR) Post #ASbqtqJsskMPNrdt2m by karlaliliana@mastodon.social
2023-02-12T16:57:40Z
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@seldo @jalcine there is precedent in that argument. This was how the Richmond shipyard came to be. Welding was a super boutique skill and Henry Kaiser asked/forced his welders to make things into smaller parts to be learned and trained because the need for ships in WWII was so great. They did and that’s why we had an integrated shipyard in Richmond.
(DIR) Post #ASbvwuBrRn1c1nAYK0 by katiefenn@front-end.social
2023-02-12T17:53:33Z
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@seldo This really hits the nail on the head, thanks for sharing 🙂
(DIR) Post #ASc3Vpjmh5pQ23df2e by jket@mastodon.social
2023-02-12T19:18:48Z
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@seldo great post, appreciate the nuanced insight
(DIR) Post #ASc5HBFOde4uJBZ7ya by maggiepint@macaw.social
2023-02-12T19:38:49Z
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@seldo I'm somewhat confused about why so much of the focus on performance is around react and frameworks when network and request latency or blasting too many requests are such a big factor.Like, why don't we ever talk about that?
(DIR) Post #AScB79BS3VZAjmJrYe by thomasorus@merveilles.town
2023-02-12T20:44:13Z
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@seldo I’m sorry to be so direct but if your conclusion isn’t bad, your whole writing feels very American centric and thus out of touch, and does not reflect the reality others face in different countries and orgs. :/
(DIR) Post #AScD3quXjiu36Zy2F6 by atyh@pleroma.atyh.cc
2023-02-12T21:06:56.740427Z
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@thomasorus @seldo speaking of being centric, Thomasorus doesn't like things unless they are catered to him and his preferences.
(DIR) Post #AScHDUHt6XSBeUjijo by seldo@alpaca.gold
2023-02-12T21:52:38Z
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@thomasorus Since I am not from America that surprises me.
(DIR) Post #AScHMWwKc2XyU5xvWa by seldo@alpaca.gold
2023-02-12T21:54:16Z
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@maggiepint I suppose for most development the biggest predictor of the latency and request profile of your app is the framework you're using? Unless you're really doing something unusual, I would assume all apps in X framework would have the same perf profile.
(DIR) Post #AScJbK5kra1ctBYSO0 by stubbornella@front-end.social
2023-02-12T22:18:35Z
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@seldo I think the perf case isn’t so straightforward either. Sure, initial load for SPAs can be slower, particularly without SSR, but native apps load slowly too. Most of the UX in a rich experience happens after load, and in an SPA those subsequent “page loads” (really just displaying another view) are crazy fast.
(DIR) Post #AScJl3Rvat3OAZZBAG by stubbornella@front-end.social
2023-02-12T22:20:45Z
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@seldo @brianleroux *is* Guillermo that persuasive?? Seems like a regular guy to me.
(DIR) Post #AScJyDto3OCsLKsxuK by seldo@alpaca.gold
2023-02-12T22:21:13Z
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@stubbornella @brianleroux How dare you say that about the god-king of javascript
(DIR) Post #AScK6mBWSpIKzlFb6W by maggiepint@macaw.social
2023-02-12T22:24:54Z
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@seldo Databases and what compute you are deployed on matter just as much I'd say.
(DIR) Post #AScKFIqYuZqobwVpNQ by seldo@alpaca.gold
2023-02-12T22:26:26Z
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@maggiepint Hmm, that's certainly true, I guess the people having this conversation are assuming you're deploying to a CDN+API combo (like Netlify/Vercel/etc.) but it's a good call out that especially enterprise customers probably have much lower hanging fruit perf wise with their backends before frontend becomes the bottleneck.
(DIR) Post #AScLpQd7YE6b851064 by stubbornella@front-end.social
2023-02-12T22:44:12Z
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@seldo @brianleroux lol. Dang, when was the coronation? 👑
(DIR) Post #AScMKZux4OjcuZD0To by thomasorus@merveilles.town
2023-02-12T22:49:50Z
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@seldo Haha that’s unfortunate! To be clearer, the way you present things like « react is everywhere here are the numbers » feels like the typical American discourse that tech grifters use to sell stuff, and that Alex Russel points his finger at (not that I particularly like Alex, but I kinda feel like him on this). In France here, react is not standard, and you will find it only in startups, that are short lived, or recent companies, who copy the Facebook tech formula. (Cont…)
(DIR) Post #AScMkU9h7GmiZMSSQa by seldo@alpaca.gold
2023-02-12T22:54:43Z
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@thomasorus I am relying for my data on https://jamstack.org/survey/2022/ and the npm survey before that, both of which showed solid majorities of developers using React most of the time. Whether it's different in France is not something I have dug into.
(DIR) Post #AScMrKUbRNRWczV8sq by thomasorus@merveilles.town
2023-02-12T22:53:22Z
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@seldo If you want a job here, learning Java and Angular is the best plan. Yet all boot camps copy the us centric formula of Node/React. A lot of companies are influenced by what’s coming from the US tech market, and I’ve seen first hand how, contrary to your point, they make stupid choices, because they follow trends, and devs have to manage somehow. I feel like you over estimate the ability of devs to pick the right too for the job, and the power of the framework marketing.
(DIR) Post #AScMrKt3yR0bqqwg0e by seldo@alpaca.gold
2023-02-12T22:55:43Z
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@thomasorus I think treating devs like they can't understand the trade-offs they're making is insulting.
(DIR) Post #AScN3HRiaqQOecqnlQ by hbuchel@hachyderm.io
2023-02-12T22:56:09Z
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@stubbornella @seldo @brianleroux To be fair, if anyone was persuading anyone to use React, it was the web communities favorite Kents and Kens and Ryans and Chads and Tylers and ... I'm just going to name a whole bunch more white dude names, you get the idea. I don't think they were trying to mislead anyone (well, at least those ones you can correlate to real people I'm sure we all know from Twitter). But there is *some* influencing happening here.
(DIR) Post #AScN3K58nF9CpTJJUO by seldo@alpaca.gold
2023-02-12T22:58:01Z
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@hbuchel @stubbornella @brianleroux There certainly are a lot of folks evangelizing for React, but I think they were doing it because, well, they liked React and it was working for them. The alternative is that somebody was, I dunno, paying them to endorse it? They were themselves fooled? It just doesn't seem likely to me.
(DIR) Post #AScNjhq6qydSfsUPuy by hbuchel@hachyderm.io
2023-02-12T23:05:34Z
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@seldo @stubbornella @brianleroux Yeah I think we agree that there was no boogeyman paying people to preach React unless I am being incredibly naïve lol. I mean, besides the people that literally created it I guess. And I'm not counting people making money teaching React or whatever, because I think they would have done the same with whatever other tool that could have came along, people gotta eat.
(DIR) Post #AScNrSZPVa4zdNNNAW by thomasorus@merveilles.town
2023-02-12T23:05:51Z
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@seldo Sir sorry to be blunt but you are out of touch with the reality of the job if you think devs are respected and listened on those topics. I suppose npm and netlify are full of people who care, and you input is considered, but from experience tech stacks are chosen by the project manager or cto following their preferences or the team knowledge or consultant selling shiny tools, independently if it’s the right tool for the job. Like, really.
(DIR) Post #AScOCShEEbxW6f307M by seldo@alpaca.gold
2023-02-12T23:07:26Z
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@thomasorus I'm sorry that's been your experience.
(DIR) Post #AScP3GG9CleMslYbS4 by thomasorus@merveilles.town
2023-02-12T23:20:22Z
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@seldo That’s nice of you, but don’t be, it’s actually standard and you grow used to it, it’s part of the job. I see what you mean when you say you felt Alex said devs were considered stupid, but to me Alex was designating stupid technical professional settings that were created while being influenced by tech marketing. You would be surprised how much other countries read, watch and emulate what’s coming from the US, independently of if it makes sense. Anyway, thanks for your answers.🙇
(DIR) Post #AScQjKVpslrgBoWEfQ by ramsey@phpc.social
2023-02-12T23:39:05Z
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@seldo @hbuchel @stubbornella @brianleroux I think it helps to know Alex’s background, which helps readers understand why he’s making these arguments. (I’m not suggesting you don’t know his background; I’m saying I think his background really matters in understanding what he’s saying.)
(DIR) Post #ASdpM41jhWF4PdP1nM by 22@octodon.social
2023-02-13T15:49:13Z
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@seldo I really loved the birdsite thread you shared and hope it’s ok to repost it’s contents here?“I am, at best, a developer of average ability. I wish it wasn't true, I wish I was one of those genius developers, but I'm not. So I work with what I have.I have come to accept that I'm never going to invent some brand-new algorithm that changes the world. I'm probably not even going to invent a framework people like. I use those things, with reliable levels of competence, but I don't invent them.What I do have is experience. If you just get things wrong enough times, you tend to do things right. If you see enough bugs, you get better at debugging. It's not as good as being a genius but the effect compounds. Experience is very helpful.The other thing I've got going for me is a talent for synthesis. I absorb information from a broad range of sources and I spot patterns. If there's a thing I'm above-average at, it's spotting patterns and weaving a narrative around them to explain what's going on. I explain.Explaining things is not nearly as impressive as inventing them but it's also not nearly as popular as inventing things, so a talent for concisely summarizing what's going on -- in a piece of software, in an organization, in the industry at large -- is what I bring to the table.Given that's my deal, being a mediocre developer is weirdly kind of helpful. I tend to see things the way most developers do. I tend to like what's popular anyway. I never want to do things the hard-but-elegant way. I find myself a reasonably reliable barometer of developers.And experience is also helpful. If you've seen the industry get it wrong 3 or 4 times, you get better at telling the difference between what's a fad and what's going to be a long-term trend. I don't just trust myself and experience though; that's what the data is for.It's not a big a flashy skill, I will never be a famous developer, which is a bummer. But it's a quietly helpful skill set, other people seem to find it useful, and so I've learned to be content with being a mediocre developer who is pretty good at explaining things.” — @seldo via https://twitter.com/seldo/status/1453094314439942149, 26 Oct 2021
(DIR) Post #ASdywEsxhpJS6Nch9c by toddgeist@follow.proofgeist.com
2023-02-13T17:37:13Z
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@seldo I just want to say I think you do a really good job of breaking topics like this down. This excellent piece is just the latest. I really appreciate the effort🙏
(DIR) Post #ASebjZavIMuimH8Y6q by bdav@sfba.social
2023-02-14T00:51:54Z
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@seldo great read Laurie. Thanks.
(DIR) Post #AShYNvVrPEL7zsdRWC by glenjamin@hachyderm.io
2023-02-15T10:58:29Z
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@seldo I just caught up on this - I thought it was a great read!One aspect I believe your post and Alex’s both don’t mention is the status quo prior to React.IME people generally were using jQuery or a template engine for SPAs, and either spending ages optimising DOM updates or giving up and emptying the parent node first. So introducing React was dev-faster than the former and customer-faster than the latter. A much better trade off for almost everyone
(DIR) Post #ASkhCyultr8SQL1TMm by PatMeenan@mastodon.social
2023-02-16T23:21:28Z
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@seldo Great read, thanks for putting in the effort.One thing I've seen react and similar frameworks do well is the separation of responsibilities and allowing for a DX that can match org structure.The team responsible for the product search page can re-use product listing widgets that are used on a landing page, etc. (in addition to being able to use publicly available components).Being able to build the same experience in "fast" HTML doesn't scale in the same ways.