Post ASQCp8U1epr5Eg8W4e by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
(DIR) More posts by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
(DIR) Post #ASHvzWUryfvg7hDdSq by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-02-03T02:21:26Z
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I think a lot about what tech policy, and especially about what governments could do to protect their citizens from the accumulation and abuse of monopoly power by tech corporations. There are no simple solutions. As in any area of policy we have to watch out for unintended consequences, eg rules that might be affordable for monopolistic corporations to comply with, but potentially ruinous for smaller competitors. #regulation #TechPolicy #DigitalRegulation
(DIR) Post #ASHz28gZGPen0Md6ES by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-02-03T02:55:07Z
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Governments of NZ - with only about 5 million citizens - might seem limited in its power to discipline the giants of Big Tech. But as the Christchurch Call showed, NZ leaders are capable of working with those in other jurisdictions on the social problems caused or amplified by digital platforms. To do that, we need a clear demonstration of the harm tech platforms are contributing to, and some specific proposals for regulation that will help us avoid such harm.
(DIR) Post #ASI1D9inx4LdJP3aPA by lightweight@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-02-03T03:19:50Z
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@strypey yes - and, sadly, as they dwarf Aotearoa NZ in size and influence globally, 'Big tech' are the problem, not the solution. Their business models and incentives make them beyond redemption. They're no allies to NZers.
(DIR) Post #ASIQAxIHgVGP2ihRD6 by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-02-03T07:59:30Z
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So if a NZ government wanted to once again ensure that any phone could call any other phone, regardless of the voice calling service or software used on each, what could they do? How could they regulate in ways that would support, for example, the development of voice calling apps that can call anyone on any service that supports voice chat? I've written a longer piece on this here:https://libranet.de/display/0b6b25a8-5763-dcbd-f1d5-33c356617209#Aotearoa #NZ #regulation #TechPolicy #DigitalRegulation #PolicyNZ
(DIR) Post #ASIQLg3293CCjzg9GS by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-02-03T08:01:27Z
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@lightweight No disagreement from me, as you probably suspected ;) I wrote a longer piece that explores some policy ideas for supporting interoperability, linked here: https://mastodon.nzoss.nz/@strypey/109799746448063659I'd really appreciate your thoughts.
(DIR) Post #ASIV5279LhTo1hUFo8 by aktivismoEstasMiaLuo@activism.openworlds.info
2023-02-03T08:54:22Z
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@strypey Most interventions I can think of & those you mention either lack effectiveness or have unacceptible consequences. It’s a hard problem for sure. The best approach I can think of is for the gov to create its own publicly admin’d service based on an open standard & offer FOSS apps on all major platforms. Then force all public services to support it. E.g. use it to call gov offices
(DIR) Post #ASIacsz8IVRZKShNdA by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-02-03T09:56:20Z
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@aktivismoEstasMiaLuo> Most interventions I can think of & those you mention either lack effectiveness or have unacceptible consequences.Can you expand on that? Sounds like you could write a useful longform piece on this too.
(DIR) Post #ASIezo2RFrZUSqQhI8 by polezaivsani@chaos.social
2023-02-03T10:45:38Z
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@strypey Discouraging or hindering anti-competitive practices seem very much feasible to me. There might be plenty grim lurking in the details, but this approach seem most amenable to the tools govs usually have on their hand.
(DIR) Post #ASIfWp9I9ALRSsNZfU by polezaivsani@chaos.social
2023-02-03T10:51:21Z
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@strypey For another heading, supporting only such technology that's interoperable. Along the lines of 'Public money—public code' movement. No more MS Office nor Zoom in administration. Like the EU parliament's move to fediverse.
(DIR) Post #ASIg0o8sSDbB1vTzcG by aktivismoEstasMiaLuo@activism.openworlds.info
2023-02-03T10:56:33Z
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@strypey If you force open standards it doesn’t solve the problem because you can have many open standards. It could be /part of/ a solution (it’s incomplete). Neutering protectionist ToS clauses (e.g. so Signal can’t force their implementation on users of their service) would be useful but incomplete as someone on service A would still need an acct on svc B to call a user on svc B.
(DIR) Post #ASJbt4Q7qKMgXaZ7M8 by polezaivsani@chaos.social
2023-02-03T10:39:40Z
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@aktivismoEstasMiaLuo @strypey Another consequence in this case would be gov gaining more power. Being central to a popular comms service does yield plenty clout. I'm wary of the centralizing effect it might have.A slight twist, say the gov bootsrapped some meshnet (think Guifi.net) system, gave back the reins to the people so that they run it themselves from there, maybe providing regulatory or financial aid. What do you think?
(DIR) Post #ASJbt4zZiWimJX9Qbw by aktivismoEstasMiaLuo@activism.openworlds.info
2023-02-03T11:07:29Z
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@polezaivsani @strypey I didn’t think of centralization in that off-the-cuff idea, but indeed that would have to be part of the design. The gov could offer several nodes, perhaps organized by purpose. E.g. a node for public schools, a node for car licensing, etc, and it could also allow for private nodes so users could run their own or use someone else’s server.
(DIR) Post #ASJbt5PSAJQBbnG5wm by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-02-03T21:45:10Z
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@aktivismoEstasMiaLuoJust to be clear, you're proposing that government mandate use of an open voice calling standard in its operations and self-host infrastructure to support that, yes? You're *not* suggesting a return to a closed, state-controlled phone network, as that's obviously a non-starter for both technical and political reasons.@polezaivsani
(DIR) Post #ASJcXvKMYTosDELmXg by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-02-03T21:52:57Z
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@polezaivsani> Like the EU parliament's move to fediverse.... or the use of matrix for some internal communications by the French and German governments. I would love to see NZ governments doing these kinds of things, but convincing them is a long term project. As @lightweight is at pains to point out, their digital decision-making is currently captured by Big Tech. But we made a lot of progress getting CC licensed adopted within government, so I think it's possible.
(DIR) Post #ASJdOPRHqUpOf0cG6S by aktivismoEstasMiaLuo@activism.openworlds.info
2023-02-03T22:00:11Z
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@strypeyI think from a logistical standpoint public-facing gov services could not shut down whatever POTS lines they already have in place, as it would be a bit radical & over-the-top to force all citizens to be either online or in person. The offline mechanisms should probably remain so there is an offline option. Apart from that, indeed I would propose forcing all public-facing gov offices also to use an open std gov administered FOSS platform.@polezaivsani
(DIR) Post #ASJdQt4EextR8711YO by aktivismoEstasMiaLuo@activism.openworlds.info
2023-02-03T11:00:53Z
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@strypey So suppose LibreSignal is resurrected because network protectism is nixed. If Bob only has Wire & wants to reach Alice on Signal, being able to create & control his own client app is insufficient because the Signal API requires account creation which requires SMS verification. If Bob has no mobile phone service, reaching a Signal user is still impossible.
(DIR) Post #ASJdQtiIG1w58Ll0zY by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-02-03T22:02:04Z
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@aktivismoEstasMiaLuoWithout network protectism, some XMPP or matrix apps could add support for accounts on silos like WhatSapp, Signal, Wire, Telegram etc, and/or putting calls through to other silos without an account.> If Bob only has Wire & wants to reach Alice on Signal... then one of them could install one of the multi-service apps. It's an ugly hack, true, but it's still a step in the right direction, and I think in the current climate it's politically possible.
(DIR) Post #ASJdQvI8OGCQ1nX9Um by aktivismoEstasMiaLuo@activism.openworlds.info
2023-02-03T11:04:05Z
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@strypey I think the GDPR in Europe forces data portability to some extent, but this only helps hack around the interoperability problem. It wouldn’t help Bob on Wire call Alice on Signal. It just potentially slightly eases the effort of using ½ a dozen different platforms.
(DIR) Post #ASJdohZ74jbcPIoWbQ by polezaivsani@chaos.social
2023-02-03T22:06:12Z
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@strypey> matrixThis project has a peculiar development course. In the beginning it was meant to bring about that same interoperability to a lot of messaging systems. Exactly so that Alice on Signal could talk to Bod on say XMPP. But before long they changed their bearing to become a (n+1)th comm system. Not bashing them, but rather to hint at the complexity of such solutions. It's a social matter that's best addressed at appropriate level.@lightweight
(DIR) Post #ASJeE6fGtTMxUUoBMm by lightweight@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-02-03T22:08:14Z
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@strypey @polezaivsani the problem we have in Aotearoa NZ gov't is that they seldom *prescribe* behaviour. They tend to 'make recommendations' without repercussions if they're not followed. So anything that disadvantages big tech is generally disregarded by gov't procurement... because the officers' primary industry contact is with big tech lobbyists. That's gotta stop.
(DIR) Post #ASJeUqCRMb4JLfIoXQ by aktivismoEstasMiaLuo@activism.openworlds.info
2023-02-03T22:12:56Z
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@strypey Sure an app can be created to interface with all the platforms. But I’m not sure how that would be possible without having an account established on all platforms. A server ultimately needs to accommodate the connection. Would a Signal server create a one-time-use account on the fly if a non-user tries to reach someone? That would take more than rendering the ToS legally unenforceable— it would require server side changes to accommodate IIUC.
(DIR) Post #ASKBjadMocvdu4XOsK by aktivismoEstasMiaLuo@activism.openworlds.info
2023-02-03T22:06:15Z
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@strypeyNote that I’ve never been to NZ, so I’m assuming not everyone is online and that POTS lines still exist to some exent. In the US, you can still subscribe to “POTS” service, but that’s in scare-quotes because in many areas it’s really VOIP simulated as POTS. That is, you get what seems to be a POTS line but really it just leads to a VOIP box down the street.@polezaivsani
(DIR) Post #ASKBjb9Gu0RvV1SsbY by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-02-04T04:27:07Z
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@aktivismoEstasMiaLuo> it’s really VOIP simulated as POTSI'm not an expert on the cable infrastructure in Aotearoa, but my understanding is that it's the same here. The copper lines and POTS exchanges have already been replaced with VoIP over fibre in some areas, and will eventually be discontinued everywhere. @polezaivsani
(DIR) Post #ASKC4PxBigsCrOjxVQ by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-02-04T04:30:41Z
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Which is a shame because a POTS line with a POTS-powered plug-in phone can still work after a natural disaster with no power in the house, as long as it hasn't brought the cables down, and the exchanges still have power (from mains or generators). Under the same conditions, modern telephony requires a means of keeping the user devices charged, and access to mobile data (assuming there is still a working mobile tower in range). @aktivismoEstasMiaLuo@polezaivsani
(DIR) Post #ASKCpbBVmTJZIqwCQK by lightweight@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-02-03T22:19:44Z
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@polezaivsani @strypey this is a mitigating factor for #Matrix - the Matrix open standard. That's the real innovation. I've noticed other messaging systems starting to adopt it, like Rocket.Chat... As the Matrix standard achieves support, like the Network Effect, it'll compel more and more to join it, even proprietary players (as we've recently seen with #ActivityPub!)
(DIR) Post #ASKCpbmjY55ZAILvRQ by polezaivsani@chaos.social
2023-02-03T22:26:15Z
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@lightweightMatrix having an open protocol spec wasn't that innovative, XMPP was there by then.@strypey
(DIR) Post #ASKCpcLTSusUu2bfai by lightweight@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-02-04T00:16:36Z
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@polezaivsani @strypey interesting point. I haven't compared the two standards. I suspect their foci are somewhat different, but I'm not sure.
(DIR) Post #ASKCpcothWPiNINAS8 by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-02-04T04:39:16Z
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@lightweight my understanding is, the matrix project founders were focused on enabling a full range of 1:1 and group chat (text, voice, video), with optional encryption, using a single protocol. Most XMPP apps had groups using MUC, and some had experimented with adding voice/ video using add-ons like Jingle. But the matrix founders had been working in VoIP at a telecoms company and thought they could design something afresh that worked better for those functions. @polezaivsani
(DIR) Post #ASKER7s3JjRvLWIILI by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-02-04T04:57:21Z
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Here's a fairly neutral comparison between XMPP, matrix, and MQTT:https://www.rst.software/blog/xmpp-vs-matrix-vs-mqtt-which-instant-messaging-protocol-is-best-for-your-chat-applicationHere's the matrix team's take on the differences:https://matrix.org/faq/#what-is-the-difference-between-matrix-and-xmpp%3FHere's a typical pro-XMPP comparison, based more on the current state implementations, rather than comparing the actual protocols. this one also chucks in whatever scuttlebutt they can think of to put readers off matrix:https://lukesmith.xyz/articles/matrix-vs-xmpp/#chat #protocols #XMPP #matrix #MQTT@lightweight@polezaivsani
(DIR) Post #ASKElkLfy2ViTTyzwm by shipp@mastodon.coffee
2023-02-04T05:01:08Z
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@strypey @lightweight @polezaivsani oh no, Luke Smith is a psycho
(DIR) Post #ASKEuRqU8AQ3h7XiIi by smallcircles@social.coop
2023-02-04T05:02:45Z
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@strypey When I joined the Center for Humane Technology at a certain point they launched a "Ledger of Harms".I was excited at the time and suggested they turned it into a small web app so that anyone could suggest harms and submit texts and scientific background for review and addition. So that there would be a growing track record of harms.They chose not to do that, and the ledger is more of a 'marketing flyer' to deal out, attract attention to their non-profit.https://ledger.humanetech.com
(DIR) Post #ASKGcMB4fII6oNfryy by jonathanharker@cloudisland.nz
2023-02-04T05:21:56Z
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@strypey @lightweight @polezaivsani the problem with XMPP isn't the protocol, it works fine (as long as you include several extensions, mainly OMEMO e2ee and persistent history). The problem is the standards "foundation" which afaict is 2 people in Germany who meet once a month and do *absolutely nothing* to advance these extensions past "experimental", so many servers don't implement them. Some have languished for over a decade. It's a mess.
(DIR) Post #ASKHUxwcSsd9a4x8Xw by polezaivsani@chaos.social
2023-02-03T22:17:09Z
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@aktivismoEstasMiaLuo@activisI've been revisiting this article lately, regarding interop and account.m.openworlds.infohttps://blog.jmp.chat/b/2022-bidirectional-gateways> This (*interop without creating account*) is not possible with all protocols, but works well when both sides are federated.@strypey
(DIR) Post #ASKHUySAZZrr9viKiu by aktivismoEstasMiaLuo@activism.openworlds.info
2023-02-03T23:00:44Z
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@polezaivsani @strypey A gateway would do the job but it requires cooperation of the platform the gateway connects to. So it’s quite a bit more than just rendering protectionism clauses are void. The law would have to force Signal to support a gateway to other platforms. Signal would have to change their server code to accomodate the gateway.
(DIR) Post #ASKHUzPN1TDs7XPc00 by polezaivsani@chaos.social
2023-02-03T23:22:02Z
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@aktivismoEstasMiaLuo @strypeySure, system ought to provide means of interoperability, omitting the technical aspects here.Most newcomers start as open yet start digging moats as they spread and become widely adopted. I'd speculate that that's name of the game when the rules are that of the unbridled capital economy. Torrents, social networks, chat apps—most all exhibit this dynamic.
(DIR) Post #ASKHUzsRHOTVZh0pJA by polezaivsani@chaos.social
2023-02-03T22:21:29Z
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@aktivismoEstasMiaLuo sorry for garbling your name
(DIR) Post #ASKHV0WUsSW9ZvkokK by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-02-04T05:31:47Z
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@polezaivsani> digging moats as they spread and become widely adopted... [is normal] when the rules are that of the unbridled capital economy.Yes, which is why it's necessary and appropriate for governments to mandate open standards in some way as part of normal antiTrust regulations that exist to prevent abuse of monopoly power against the interests of citizens. @aktivismoEstasMiaLuo
(DIR) Post #ASKHx5layY4BwvCxUW by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-02-04T05:36:52Z
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@jonathanharker To be fair, there are projects within the XMPP community working to address these pain points, such as:https://docs.modernxmpp.org/... and Snikket.org @snikket_im @lightweight @polezaivsani
(DIR) Post #ASKI9vFXOBOP60Kb2G by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-02-04T05:39:13Z
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@shippLuke Smith certainly has a... unique take on the world, but his chat federation comparison is typical of many XMPP fans I've read or discussed the subject with here. @lightweight @polezaivsani
(DIR) Post #ASKVTspzMj2eoKEHwW by Menel@nerdculture.de
2023-02-04T08:07:54Z
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@strypeyIt is unfair to use this lukesmith "article" and say it is typical of xmpp community. There are bad elements in every community. It is cited often because it is so controversial and hateful, typical ensurence something is shared in social media. Activitypub is not an exception it seems.On the first comparison link the only astounding thing I've seen is xmpp is said to be "slow" , I think it is the fastest IM. (By what I've tested myself)@lightweight @polezaivsani
(DIR) Post #ASKW1328TiOhzNj1Jw by polezaivsani@chaos.social
2023-02-04T05:52:27Z
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@jonathanharker Not sticking up for any particular suite here, yet being a mess in this domain might be a fitting or even required condition so as to match the messy domain. Most (all?) human languages are beautiful snarls.Moreover, the way a standard evolves (broadly speaking) through time seems imho like a good proxy for it's fit for the task.I'll check up the links above but wonder how these standards had fared through time.@strypey @lightweight
(DIR) Post #ASKW13bwKb2NmQTc80 by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-02-04T08:14:25Z
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@polezaivsani> wonder how these standards had fared through timeBoth standards continue to evolve. XMPP mainly through XEPs and compliance suites:https://xmpp.org/about/compliance-suites/...and matrix through the MSC process:https://spec.matrix.org/proposals/For production use by a group of people planning to host their own server I'd suggest comparing Element (matrix) and Snikket (XMPP) on the features you particularly need or want, and testing general usability.@jonathanharker @lightweight
(DIR) Post #ASKXqZjOlgrO7e5wsC by polezaivsani@chaos.social
2023-02-04T08:34:51Z
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@strypeyRight, though I've been wondering how the community deals with these changes, how do social dynamics underpinning these changes look.Excuse me for swaying the discussing off the path, following the links has been too tempting :)@jonathanharker @lightweight
(DIR) Post #ASNOebUi4Ss20CJxUe by Monal@fosstodon.org
2023-02-05T17:29:39Z
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@strypey @lightweight @polezaivsani the rst.social blog post contains several errors.Sasl is no encryption but an authentication protocol. It is typically used *within* an already TLS encrypted connection.Furthermore xmpp *does* have end to end encryption which is even enabled by default in most clients. It is called omemo.There may be even more errors in the article, I stopped reading after these.
(DIR) Post #ASPj6d1AO3KgEd3wnY by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-02-06T20:33:17Z
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@scottThese examples aren't a problem with tech regulation as such, but a problem of legislators trying to regulate digital tech as a quick fix for unrelated social problems, or as a flex to win votes, without really understanding how digital tech is organised. When these laws don't pass, that's the checks and balances working. The legislators and their advisors will be learning from the consultations for them, which again is the regulatory process working as it's meant to.
(DIR) Post #ASPjjBo3UaXF8MJjoe by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-02-06T20:40:10Z
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@scottBut if we want really well informed regulations, we need to be proposing and refining them ourselves. I had a go at this here:https://mastodon.nzoss.nz/@strypey/109799746448063659
(DIR) Post #ASPqOpNBt9RzRgzPV2 by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-02-06T21:56:13Z
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If anyone else out there is wondering what RCS is, I suggest reading this primer:https://www.digitaltrends.com/mobile/what-is-rcs-messaging/It also includes some real world examples of the challenges facing standardisation efforts. Note the disproportionate power a handful of large corporate vendors have over standards development and adoption.@blake @larma @jonathanharker @lightweight @polezaivsani
(DIR) Post #ASPqvf0ZRh70r845uS by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-02-06T22:01:53Z
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Note: the article has a few minor inaccuracies about the limitions of SMS. For example they can be encrypted if the app at each end supports it (eg Signal and the Silence fork did that). Also, most SMS apps can send longer messages as a string of SMS, and reassemble such strings for display as a single message. Similarly, most of them can handle emoji, and send stickers as MMS. Attachments can be sent as MMS too.@blake@larma @jonathanharker @lightweight @polezaivsani
(DIR) Post #ASPr4LBqUxnjztThB2 by blake@fosstodon.org
2023-02-06T22:03:27Z
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@strypey @larma @jonathanharker @lightweight @polezaivsani Attachments can _only_ be sent over MMS.
(DIR) Post #ASPruSL7A61FEHfDhQ by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-02-06T22:13:12Z
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The biggest thing holding back SMS - and especially MMS - is the tendency of carriers to charge per message, as if they're the postal system. If they were able to impose such charges on IP-based chat apps, nobody would want to keep using those either. @blake@larma @jonathanharker @lightweight @polezaivsani
(DIR) Post #ASPuRK5T44WR6F93cO by blake@fosstodon.org
2023-02-05T18:15:23Z
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@larma @polezaivsani @jonathanharker @strypey @lightweight The EU could do something similar to DSA/DMA but actually settle on a protocol and mandate its community-administered use within, say, 3 years. So the big actors (i.e. WhatsApp, FB) would have to follow the picked protocol as set forth by the community instead of by their own means, as long as there's a standard (i.e. XEP, MSC, FEP) way to do whatever they're doing.Why the EU? Because they're actually somewhat competent at doing good.
(DIR) Post #ASPuRKh2oMa0ymj4Bk by polezaivsani@chaos.social
2023-02-05T18:27:52Z
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@blakePicking any protocol seem a level of specificity/rigidity that's usuall frowned upon within political realm. They are too big and bulky, so any decision that's too low level usually mean setting oneself up in the long run.p.s. what's DSA/DMA?@larma @jonathanharker @strypey @lightweight
(DIR) Post #ASPuRLEMoTEce8Jg80 by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-02-06T22:41:21Z
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@polezaivsani> Picking any protocol seem a level of specificity/rigidity that's usuall frowned upon within political realm.You certainly wouldn't want to mandate a specific protocol in the legislation text, nor delegate protocol choice to a group of political officials. But you could, for example, delegate it to a widely respected, engineer-driven standards body like the IETF.@blake @larma @jonathanharker @lightweight
(DIR) Post #ASPuRLrMTUQWb4YouO by blake@fosstodon.org
2023-02-05T18:17:46Z
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@larma @polezaivsani @jonathanharker @strypey @lightweight Also it would be pretty neat if Jibe's RCS opened up XMPP federation, like how SMS works with email. It might be restricted to RCS-side initiated for spam prevention purposes, which I think is OK.
(DIR) Post #ASPv6SFDdnUIGvJqqW by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-02-06T22:49:05Z
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@polezaivsaniKeep in mind that chat users and engineers usually want interop (there are exceptions like Moxie and the Signal fanbase). The purpose of regulation is to keep business managers from interfering with their engineers interop efforts, in pursuit of monopoly power. Anything that achieves that will work, without imposing an unsure burden on smaller players, which are usually more engineering -driven anyway.@blake @larma @jonathanharker @lightweight
(DIR) Post #ASQ2d5fnHU2TVHG5Oi by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-02-07T00:13:00Z
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@blake> Attachments can _only_ be sent over MMS.Yes, that's what I meant, thanks for pointing out the ambiguity in my wording. Fixed now (I think).@larma @jonathanharker @lightweight @polezaivsani
(DIR) Post #ASQCp8U1epr5Eg8W4e by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-02-07T02:06:43Z
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Let's remember that we all agree on far more than we disagree on. We all want to see mainstream use of decentralised chat networks using open standards. The only disagreements are about exactly how that looks in practice. It's useful to make detailed technical comparisons of available protocols and their implementations. But let's respect each other and debate in good faith. @lightweight @polezaivsani @shipp @jonathanharker @talios @Menel @jr @debacle @blake @larma @mattj @nicoco @xmpp @Monal
(DIR) Post #ASQDexXJbSawLJO0mG by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-02-07T02:16:58Z
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I say this not so much because of any of the comments in this thread so far, but because I've seen too many chat protocol discussions here descend into XMPP vs. matrix flamewars. Every time it's a missed opportunity for people in everyone participating and reading to learn more about both, and potentially come up with new ways to improve them, bridge them etc.@lightweight@polezaivsani @shipp @jonathanharker @talios @Menel @jr @debacle @blake @larma @mattj @nicoco @xmpp @Monal
(DIR) Post #ASQE8S1fK52PIne3sG by blake@fosstodon.org
2023-02-07T02:22:12Z
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@strypeyI think they can coexist. Can, do, and will. Just for fun, IRC is always something worth throwing into the mix 😉@lightweight @polezaivsani @shipp @jonathanharker @talios @Menel @jr @debacle @larma @mattj @nicoco @xmpp @Monal
(DIR) Post #ASQEVUOkfVztJvQf7A by mark@tech.lgbt
2023-02-07T02:26:32Z
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@strypey Mmm. I sometimes wonder if governments could mandate the use of #ActivityPub (or another form of federation) to eliminate vendor lock-in.
(DIR) Post #ASQEmlqR3XVkLvcOSO by talios@mastodon.nz
2023-02-07T02:29:18Z
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@strypey @lightweight @polezaivsani @shipp @jonathanharker @Menel @jr @debacle @blake @larma @mattj @nicoco @xmpp @Monal I suspect in part that’s one reason why Twitter “just worked” - right time, right place, no splits, no arguments over implementation (well, no public ones).
(DIR) Post #ASQEmnvpIT0mpE9j8a by talios@mastodon.nz
2023-02-07T02:29:38Z
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@talios @strypey @lightweight @polezaivsani @shipp @jonathanharker @Menel @jr @debacle @blake @larma @mattj @nicoco @xmpp @Monal Sure - the fail whale meant NO ONE could chat but hey...
(DIR) Post #ASQRtPDWsjgHbcukro by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-02-07T04:56:29Z
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@markRead on, a couple of posts down I linked a piece covering pros and cons of different policy approaches, and further down the thread we talk about why mandating open standards and delegating the protocols specifics to a cross-party expert group.
(DIR) Post #ASQT2xmJqzIrM7JAxs by mark@tech.lgbt
2023-02-07T05:08:43Z
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@strypey Thanks! I skim-read a lot of the thread but I must have missed some of the good bits 😁
(DIR) Post #ASQT9v3EOLvKvNXGfA by jonathanharker@cloudisland.nz
2023-02-07T05:10:16Z
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I recognize I was probably being a smart arse characterizing the XMPP foundation as "a couple of people in Germany". I've spent at least 20 years trying to get people to use XMPP, and trying to get Pidgin to work sensibly with it, and supporting friends and family. I gave up a while back because nothing was being progressed, and I remember looking up the monthly meeting minutes and seeing very little activity (would have been 2010-2015 or so)
(DIR) Post #ASQTBlccQ7y2G8y8eG by jonathanharker@cloudisland.nz
2023-02-07T05:10:42Z
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@strypey With carbons, OMEMO, MAM and a couple of other XEPs, Prosody and Conversations on Android work nicely as fw secure e2ee chat with persistent history. But client support is still patchy and inconsistent, and OMEMO is still experimental. I'm no Matrix fan but I find it's easier to host and support.
(DIR) Post #ASQuQfm38tY7EEiE1A by nicoco@pouet.pas.la
2023-02-07T10:15:46Z
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@strypey > we all agree on far more than we disagree onDefinitely.I shouldn't have called out "[all] matrix enthusiasts" but rather only the FUDer, my bad. As someone else pointed out, it's important to signal misinformation, at least for the passive readers scrolling by.
(DIR) Post #ASSB4z9YIt8fL7uTDM by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-02-08T00:56:15Z
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@mark when I say...>delegating the protocols specifics to a cross-party expert groupI imagine it working a bit like the Misuse of Drugs Act. The legislation encodes an intention and a framework for regulation, then constitutes an expert group to which it delegates the classification of drugs within the framework. That group (ideally) can evaluate new evidence and change the specifics as appropriate, without a ponderous legislative amendment.
(DIR) Post #ASSBRwJL2LULBYQsWu by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-02-08T01:01:45Z
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@jonathanharker> client support is still patchyTo be fair, this is also true of matrix. I've tried a number of apps, but so far only Element had all expected features working. Similarly with the server side, is anyone using anything other than Synapse in production?
(DIR) Post #ASSdpwbMPB6Bkm64H2 by jonathanharker@cloudisland.nz
2023-02-08T06:19:37Z
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@strypey that's what I'm using :)
(DIR) Post #ASSnEm5DY4lZxSye6i by jonathanharker@cloudisland.nz
2023-02-08T06:30:56Z
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@nicoco @strypey I'm not a FUDer, or a particular fan of matrix, I'm just expressing frustration that after 20 years of using and supporting XMPP for friends and family, it is still in this weird limbo of partially implemented clients and servers with optional "experimental" bits for basic things like encryption and message persistence. Sorry if I forgot the /s earlier
(DIR) Post #ASSnEmgRJgXZouON7o by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-02-08T08:04:44Z
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@jonathanharker> it is still in this weird limbo of partially implemented clients and serversHave you tried Snikket? It aims to lift the bar for XMPP UX and make small-scale community hosting more accessible. @nicoco
(DIR) Post #ASSrtxMqtiyEe67OGO by jonathanharker@cloudisland.nz
2023-02-08T08:57:13Z
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@strypey @nicoco I haven't. Sounds promising, like the work done on the Conversations Android app and OMEMO, which I followed for several years.
(DIR) Post #ASUO1387GO9SEfbyOO by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2023-02-09T02:31:05Z
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@jonathanharkerSnikket is a friendly fork of existing XMPP software. The server is a version of Prosody, packaged to make self-hosting easier. The apps available so far are built on Conversations and Siskin. Web and desktop apps are in the works, but any XMPP app is compatible with a Snikket server.@nicoco