Post ASLIuZaZw0vUgXNTYu by hebebur@nnia.space
(DIR) More posts by hebebur@nnia.space
(DIR) Post #ASLGj9WMJanKk6pYKO by comrade_lecter@nnia.space
2023-02-04T16:57:54Z
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I just found out that some people use a term "nmlnm" (non-men loving non-men). I don't think "non-men" is a real category of people that exists. There's no way this will turn out good.
(DIR) Post #ASLH9KzuGfmvrk8ZDE by comrade_lecter@nnia.space
2023-02-04T17:02:34Z
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@mushroomfemboy no. I think individual people have varying genders. I just don't think someone can be grouped as "non-men".
(DIR) Post #ASLHaSD9YWCm3cGNk0 by comrade_lecter@nnia.space
2023-02-04T17:07:34Z
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@mushroomfemboy except that people who want to use this term demand total separation from the male end of the spectrum, including separation from people who identify as boys/femboys or something similar. "Non-men" is an artificial group that was proposed as another way to say "women and nonbinary people" by those who believe women and nonbinary people cannot be partially connected to manhood in any form, and that men or boys cannot be part women or nonbinary.
(DIR) Post #ASLIQB6eOdXy48syLg by comrade_lecter@nnia.space
2023-02-04T17:16:54Z
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@mushroomfemboy here's one post talking about this problem https://at.tumblr.com/queer-love-4-women/707987430285901824/0c75vymx17nh
(DIR) Post #ASLIVkLomjfkp5dSO8 by Parapuppy@nnia.space
2023-02-04T17:17:55Z
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@comrade_lecter I think they exist in the literal sense, as in "people who are not men", but I do really hate the use of the term as it currently is. It's mainly an excuse to exclude mspecs and male/genderfluid/etc people from lesbian spaces.
(DIR) Post #ASLIgUnqvpp5mtsFY8 by comrade_lecter@nnia.space
2023-02-04T17:19:51Z
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@mushroomfemboy this is how this word is used. And this is why it's a problem.
(DIR) Post #ASLIuZaZw0vUgXNTYu by hebebur@nnia.space
2023-02-04T17:22:23Z
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@comrade_lecter Yeah, multigender people are getting some short ends of the stick recently
(DIR) Post #ASLJ2WCsOTtmVn50Yy by comrade_lecter@nnia.space
2023-02-04T17:23:50Z
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@mushroomfemboy "non-men" has emerged and is used as a term that's meant to include women and nonbinary people. It appeared specifically as a trick to allow nonbinary people to identify as lesbians while excluding men. This is the context of this term, and it's not used for anything else.
(DIR) Post #ASLJAp9pooTBbUcLp2 by foxyanarchism@nnia.space
2023-02-04T17:25:18Z
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@comrade_lecter @mushroomfemboy I really don’t think it is. I know a lot of people who don’t identify in any way as a man, wether AMAB, AFAB or something else, and it just seems like you’re trying to invalidate others because of your own connection to manhood. If someone doesn’t identify as a man *in any way* - then they are not a man, and so are obviously separated from the male end of the spectrum. This just seems like you airing out your own gender insecurities to chuck others under the bus :/
(DIR) Post #ASLJJYicJ8kFE23Ge8 by comrade_lecter@nnia.space
2023-02-04T17:26:55Z
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@foxyanarchism @mushroomfemboy again, this not how this term is used in discourse.
(DIR) Post #ASLJRZ2yyDkYYpOXFg by comrade_lecter@nnia.space
2023-02-04T17:28:22Z
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@mushroomfemboy it would not be harmful if it appeared in some other context. Not for separating women and nonbinary people as a whole from men as a whole.
(DIR) Post #ASLJg95jkr5uP9dV3I by foxyanarchism@nnia.space
2023-02-04T17:30:57Z
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@comrade_lecter @mushroomfemboy Lecter - most people don’t live their lives going in and out of discourse, and for you to say basically that everyone must have “some form” of masculinity in them is incredibly invalidating. You may not personally like the term, but not everyone identifies as male, and having a way to express that without necessarily excluding others who may not want to share their connection with womanhood or their experiences is incredibly useful, especially in a dating situation. Still, people should not have to justify the usage of a term to you because of your personal prejudices surrounding it (seriously, “in no way is this good” so people aren’t allowed to identify as fully female, and trans women have to be associated with femboys? ). In all honestly, it’s really fucking hypocritical coming from someone who’s always preaching about terms being personal and valid, and just goes to show how much you inherently politicise people’s personal identity
(DIR) Post #ASLJhVid727Gs6TkKu by comrade_lecter@nnia.space
2023-02-04T17:31:15Z
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@mushroomfemboy @foxyanarchism again. That's where this term originated. That's what it was meant for. It's bad because of who it was made up by and why. Because it was made up to create a definition of lesbianism that includes all women and nonbinary people who are attracted to women and nonbinary people and excludes men/people who are attracted to men. And it's bad because that's not how genders work - because nonbinary people and women can be men.
(DIR) Post #ASLJoMLyKbWHqu99Wa by comrade_lecter@nnia.space
2023-02-04T17:32:29Z
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@foxyanarchism @mushroomfemboy except that I DID NOT say everyone has some form of masculinity or connection to manhood.
(DIR) Post #ASLJpmEvZWAmQXWllI by comrade_lecter@nnia.space
2023-02-04T17:32:40Z
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@mushroomfemboy it was born in this context.
(DIR) Post #ASLJvlgkXBrySGOj8S by foxyanarchism@nnia.space
2023-02-04T17:33:50Z
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@comrade_lecter @mushroomfemboy YES BUT LECTER THATS NOT WHO WE’RE TALKING ABOUT??? It’s not even about lesbianism, there are a myriad of other attractions where non women are only attracted to non women, or have a preference for them. Women can be men and so can nonbinary people, but if that’s the case, then they are no longer included in the “non men” category? This is really not that hard to grasp. Why do you seem to have such a vendetta against nonbinary people and other women identifying as only women?
(DIR) Post #ASLK2BLw1nhjmxiiwq by foxyanarchism@nnia.space
2023-02-04T17:34:57Z
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@comrade_lecter @mushroomfemboy is that really what you’ve gotten from this? And your comments made it seem like you did, and made it seem like you’re looking down on people who are only attracted to non-men as some sort of inherently negative attraction. That’s my point here. Stop cherrypicking
(DIR) Post #ASLKJl4aTTUFUnzGEq by comrade_lecter@nnia.space
2023-02-04T17:38:08Z
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@foxyanarchism @mushroomfemboy "that's not who we're talking about" - maybe YOU aren't. I am. I'm talking about the social context of this term, which is to make genders into distinct, never overlapping categories. Because it's a discourse I've been witnessing go down for a while already, on Tumblr.
(DIR) Post #ASLKPQeBKXW7sqL8wy by comrade_lecter@nnia.space
2023-02-04T17:39:10Z
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@foxyanarchism @mushroomfemboy maybe actually read what I say, or ask if something is unclear.
(DIR) Post #ASLKhy7Jd2XMtvo8Nk by foxyanarchism@nnia.space
2023-02-04T17:42:32Z
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@comrade_lecter @mushroomfemboy Lecter. Lecter. You are literally excluding a massive part of people’s identity, because of *tumblr discourse.* - please understand how stupid you sound right now. The entire purpose of “non men” is so that everyone who doesn’t identify as a man is able to express their attraction without having to worry about labels or assigned gender. If you’re really taking *tumblr fucking discourse* over the lived experiences of actual people and using that to say you don’t believe someone’s IDENTITY IS REAL, then you’re a much bigger hypocrite and horrible person than I expected you to be, and you shouldn’t be in a position where you’re leading a marginalised community, if you’re genuinely taking your opinions on the validity of someone’s attraction from tumblr. You’re essentially saying people who aren’t attracted to men are doomed to harm people (“this won’t end well) which is such a self centred and pathetic viewpoint. Also, I thought you supported ALL good faith identities? Clearly only the ones that support your specific complexes
(DIR) Post #ASLKoYJTxshCtodbzU by comrade_lecter@nnia.space
2023-02-04T17:43:43Z
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@foxyanarchism @mushroomfemboy this term comes from Tumblr discourse. Full stop. It's inseparable from that discourse.
(DIR) Post #ASLL4deBtuf24kzjBg by foxyanarchism@nnia.space
2023-02-04T17:46:38Z
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@comrade_lecter @mushroomfemboy No, *you* cannot separate it from discourse and are using that as an excuse to invalidate people’s personal attractions and identity because it doesn’t match up with experiences you agree with. Just because you use people’s identity as a bargaining chip in online discourse doesn’t mean the rest of the world does, and to reduce someone’s identity to a discourse topic is one of the most bigoted things you could do
(DIR) Post #ASLLAQZJRL4PFaTOvQ by comrade_lecter@nnia.space
2023-02-04T17:47:39Z
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@foxyanarchism @mushroomfemboy that term came from that discourse.
(DIR) Post #ASLNnLeXqk5pCtbhx2 by comrade_lecter@nnia.space
2023-02-04T18:17:05Z
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Because people misunderstood what I mean. No, I do not mean everyone is partially a man. I say "non-men aren't a real category" because of how this phrase is used. "Non-men" did not emerge as a self identity of individuals. It emerged from the clash of two definitions of "lesbian" - "woman loving women" and "queer attraction to women", in mspec lesbian discourse several years ago. I was there and saw it, I just had no idea they also made an abbreviation in the pattern of mlm, wlw, etc, out of it."Non-men loving non-men" was proposed as a term that would include nonbinary lesbians and lesbians who are attracted to nonbinary people into the lesbian identity, while still excluding lesbians who are men or are attracted to men. Which had several bad implications, the biggest one being that some people are women, nonbinary, and men at once. There's a certain overlap between butch lesbians and transmascs, for example. The concept of "non-men" as a monolithic category quickly became a tool of exclusionists. You can read about how this term is used on this posthttps://at.tumblr.com/queer-love-4-women/707987430285901824/0c75vymx17nhIt's also mentioned in the LGBTQIA Wiki, which is a questionable source, but you can use it as a starting point and follow referenceshttps://lgbtqia.fandom.com/wiki/Lesbian#COVID-19_pandemic_debatesI made this graph about it a couple of years ago that may clear more
(DIR) Post #ASLNtpGKfvaQmDN31U by comrade_lecter@nnia.space
2023-02-04T18:18:17Z
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@PlusMakesPosts https://nnia.space/@comrade_lecter/109807837241981614
(DIR) Post #ASLOGzPt5YTYvgsxHc by comrade_lecter@nnia.space
2023-02-04T18:22:27Z
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@PlusMakesPosts that's what the term was made for.
(DIR) Post #ASLORfDiWC5bTeHaDo by comrade_lecter@nnia.space
2023-02-04T18:24:25Z
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@PlusMakesPosts source?
(DIR) Post #ASLOi3aBhtklfYbsIq by comrade_lecter@nnia.space
2023-02-04T18:27:19Z
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@PlusMakesPosts if you believe this term was made by someone else for something else, you should be able to point that.
(DIR) Post #ASLOrA1f7YqiG5nmQi by comrade_lecter@nnia.space
2023-02-04T18:29:01Z
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@PlusMakesPosts well, I'm not making you. I'm just saying that there's no history of usage of this term that's not connected to lesbian exclusionism.
(DIR) Post #ASLOw6BUpYXFnCkxF2 by comrade_lecter@nnia.space
2023-02-04T18:29:54Z
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@mushroomfemboy @PlusMakesPosts I did it. You didn't like it because the post didn't agree with your position.
(DIR) Post #ASLP6AUteMp844dG76 by comrade_lecter@nnia.space
2023-02-04T18:31:43Z
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@mushroomfemboy @PlusMakesPosts there's a wiki article with several citations a few posts above you.
(DIR) Post #ASLPpssHVHRUjHMx1M by Zest@nnia.space
2023-02-04T18:39:59Z
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@comrade_lecter honestly that's the second time I've seen you being overly concerned with the origins of a word or phrase. I don't get it. How is a term that arises from some discourse inseparable. I saw you say "based can only refer to bad things" because right wing people use it to mean things they like and they came up with it. But now randos are using it for whatever they like or agree with.This is just how language works, words change meanings and become more and more divorced from their origins over time and more people using them in other context.
(DIR) Post #ASLSEOL0NK3bAYcOXo by comrade_lecter@nnia.space
2023-02-04T19:06:50Z
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@Zest I'm more interested in how the word is used in practice than in what can be deduced from the way it sounds out of context.
(DIR) Post #ASLUYikwMzY2CBZSGO by Zest@nnia.space
2023-02-04T19:32:56Z
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@comrade_lecter hmm, but even so you can't hold every use to the standard of the context you originally heard it? Like if people are using a word in a new context that has to be examined too. I'm also not saying this to defend everyone who saw your post and decided to analyze the term out of context, I think I get where you're coming from now that I think about it more, at least in terms of this conversation cus it doesn't really feel like people are engaging with the post so much as an etymological debate. Currently my ideals in terms of language are already in turmoil and probably a bit at odds with reality so I might be projecting a bit anyways.
(DIR) Post #ASLUx9Mt4vUhgIy8bg by comrade_lecter@nnia.space
2023-02-04T19:37:19Z
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@Zest I'm noticing and categorizing ways the words are used outside of the definition that was originally written for them ("map" is another example of a word with a definition shift, btw).But my original post here was prompted by this
(DIR) Post #ASLawREJmaikVw0LE8 by TheSomebodies@mirr0r.city
2023-02-04T20:37:37.049960Z
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@comrade_lecter repeating lesbian history at the top of my lungsI was there too shockingly enough and you're not even half right
(DIR) Post #ASLawRqbUFLUQfuuu0 by comrade_lecter@nnia.space
2023-02-04T20:44:25Z
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@TheSomebodies male lesbians exist. Lesbians who are attracted to men also exist.
(DIR) Post #ASLcPOaykyRUhAyYwC by irratizomb@nnia.space
2023-02-04T20:01:59Z
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@mushroomfemboy @Sp @comrade_lecter @Shira Do you not understand how logic works? Because a primer in basic logic is a bit beyond the ability of Mastadon, but a good source is the Wikipedia article on Negation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negation
(DIR) Post #ASLcPPGSGlcSloNgaO by TheSomebodies@mirr0r.city
2023-02-04T20:50:33.389378Z
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@irratizomb @mushroomfemboy @Sp @comrade_lecter @Shira I think all of fediverse needs to remember that queerness isn't a linear meme it's a messy piece of shit and I'm a dyke dating two guys and a clown but maintain my dykery so I have myndoubts about using hard logic to work out gender and sexuality
(DIR) Post #ASLcPPh2fut26Gov1k by bitterblossom@lolison.top
2023-02-04T21:00:54.086724Z
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@TheSomebodies @Sp @Shira @comrade_lecter @irratizomb @mushroomfemboy things would be a LOT simpler if you just... tossed the labels in the trash. just saying. if you aren't a dyke or a queer or whatever hyper-specific new gender and attraction group, then nobody can get upset at you being whatever labels they dont like. it'll save you a lot of drama.
(DIR) Post #ASLd4ZTpC0fSKIGOjQ by TheSomebodies@mirr0r.city
2023-02-04T20:59:50.613851Z
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@comrade_lecter me, a dyke dating two guys and a clown. I know lecter. I'm the lesbian with colorful tastes. Male lesbians tend to have an interesting experience with gender as well. MY POINT STANDS.
(DIR) Post #ASLd4aBQZtXuVWfDhA by comrade_lecter@nnia.space
2023-02-04T21:08:18Z
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@TheSomebodies what IS your point?
(DIR) Post #ASLdc2Iv2vsBHM7UJc by TheSomebodies@mirr0r.city
2023-02-04T21:04:39.013318Z
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@comrade_lecter that you're a pedantic fucking idiot who likes to tell everybody else what to say and how to feel, and it makes perfect sense that you're a totalitarian communist now all bc of this thread.
(DIR) Post #ASLdc2o7AwpIq6iOwK by comrade_lecter@nnia.space
2023-02-04T21:14:22Z
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@TheSomebodies you can dislike me if you want to, but what's your point in regards to the actual topic of this discussion?
(DIR) Post #ASLdc3JfHe40PxTb7I by TheSomebodies@mirr0r.city
2023-02-04T21:04:58.070173Z
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@comrade_lecter I'm having a bad day and you are now the main problem in it.
(DIR) Post #ASLdyDnH0c9dHfte1g by TheSomebodies@mirr0r.city
2023-02-04T21:11:06.303896Z
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@comrade_lecter everybody has a different definition for their own sexuality so one person using nmlnm AND lesbian is not contradictory to another person using something else AND lesbian. Because queerness isn't logical. Sexuality and gender aren't logical, so stop trying.
(DIR) Post #ASLdyEEZN7zMeKfRZY by comrade_lecter@nnia.space
2023-02-04T21:18:22Z
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@TheSomebodies for personal identity, yes. As a general definition of what a lesbian is - no.
(DIR) Post #ASLib84gbdOwemqilE by comrade_lecter@nnia.space
2023-02-04T22:10:14Z
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@balthybibi well, yeah. If the term came from some other context, it would be okay.
(DIR) Post #ASLkpSZ1QLNOAL02gy by comrade_lecter@nnia.space
2023-02-04T22:35:12Z
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@balthybibi if any reclamation happens, that would be good.
(DIR) Post #ASLpbfki5lt4mmiC6y by sh0code_sh0con@nnia.space
2023-02-04T23:28:45Z
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@comrade_lecter Here is my only addition to The Discourse:“Non-men” does have 𝘴𝘰𝘮𝘦 merit as a category, although it’s a rather odd one to quantify multigender and genderfluid folks by. However, “non-men loving non-men” definitely should NOT be how anyone is defining the term ‘lesbian’.
(DIR) Post #ASLpkTZakBPvcPi1aK by comrade_lecter@nnia.space
2023-02-04T23:30:19Z
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@sh0code_sh0con I was googling "non-men loving non-men" to try to find a reference for when it emerged as a term, and the first result was this
(DIR) Post #ASLqKZJgroThrBTvVo by sh0code_sh0con@nnia.space
2023-02-04T23:36:53Z
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@comrade_lecter lmaooo whatt 💀💀💀
(DIR) Post #ASNAElrbUsmHH4ojEO by comrade_lecter@nnia.space
2023-02-05T14:54:37Z
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@balthybibi I did not expect this post to attract attention to begin with. I'd say more and better if I did. I saw some shitty screenshot on Tumblr and complained about it.
(DIR) Post #ASPgwe5BNDfejW3MG0 by aronarchy@nnia.space
2023-02-06T20:10:32Z
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@comrade_lecter um could you maybe consider changing the link format when you repost tumblr links in the future? that one is a new update that tracks people who click on it (https://pizza-and-ramen.tumblr.com/post/696959487758745600/tumblr-is-tracking-shared-links, + I posted about it myself a while ago:
(DIR) Post #ASPiWPBSLP1su8bS0u by aronarchy@nnia.space
2023-02-06T20:10:55Z
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@comrade_lecter also apart from having to open Tor whenever trying to click one of those, it's also just really annoying, bc they take a lot longer to load than normal tumblr links
(DIR) Post #ASPiWPfwW3PqQgrnX6 by comrade_lecter@nnia.space
2023-02-06T20:28:10Z
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@aronarchy either I didn't get something about how exactly it should be altered, or it stopped working, but now, when I try to do it, it links to the blog instead of to the post.
(DIR) Post #ASPji96a39jQSzU7AO by aronarchy@nnia.space
2023-02-06T20:41:30Z
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@comrade_lecter To alter it, click on and load your link (in Tor, preferably), then copy the resulting link after it finishes loading, but without the "branch id" partsif you're on desktop, click the three dots + copy link, or click the name of the blog in the top left corner of a post which takes you to the post itself in [].tumblr.com/post/[ID#] formatidk about mobile, still haven't logged back in on there
(DIR) Post #ASPjnyI5AeQqfCdtiK by comrade_lecter@nnia.space
2023-02-06T20:42:35Z
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@tubularnebula @aronarchy it works. I don't know what I did wrong before though.