Post AQfdrExaXb0I5U24cC by aven@shitposter.club
(DIR) More posts by aven@shitposter.club
(DIR) Post #AQfRBOzPf8hfa4AZ9M by 7@collapsitarian.io
2022-12-16T14:45:07.989376Z
3 likes, 1 repeats
Been thinking about this since last night.Michael Knowles was on Timmy's show and he made a statement about anarchy that just didn't sit well with me. He said something to the effect of, "I consider it authoritarian that anarchists would prevent me from using a government to protect that child [who is being abused by their parents]."Certainly, this posed a problem for Luke when posed on-the-spot; Luke isn't good at arguing things he hasn't argued previously. But it bothered me because I know anarchists, and they don't put up with that shit from people they know. They stick up for kids, and are willing to argue with shitty parents and even intervene if necessary -- using the parent's own philosophy and better reasoning to really help. This is in comparison to the State, whose methods are all extremely stressful on the child whether it be through the removal of the parent, arrest, or some other levying of force.Abusive parents are just bullies, bullies who have a societal "authority" granted to them and an implicit authority from the eyes of their child. Bringing in yet another authority to exercise a different force, to me, sounds like cowardice, not conservatism.
(DIR) Post #AQfRsPQttEmVPLXA80 by evilgardengnome@mastodon.social
2022-12-16T14:51:55Z
4 likes, 1 repeats
@7 imo, this sort of thing stems from an opinion on anarchy. Is anarchy no laws/rules, or no government? Very different positions. People live by rules, written or not, not constant random acts; people against anarchy often think it's just people acting randomly, driven by id impulses. Couldn't be further from the truth. Also, anarchy requires empowering individuals and the community to solve their own problems. Lots of people are uncomfortable with that responsibility.
(DIR) Post #AQfRszjwttPQ0qisoi by taneli@freespeechextremist.com
2022-12-16T14:53:02.694355Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@7 i think the reality of child abuse and other such activities is much more uncomfortable than people want to admit; if there is someone who wants to engage in that, all they have to do is to disconnect themselves from a network of people who'd intervene(and additionally form ones that support it), and this is how it has been historically regardless of what sort of a power dynamic there is at a state levelessentially the best bet for a intervention is readily available vigilantism(low chance to get prosecuted for engaging in it within a community)pretending that the state can do something especially well about this particular issue is so tired
(DIR) Post #AQfRtGvuye5HKtSBKi by 7@collapsitarian.io
2022-12-16T14:53:03.273142Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@evilgardengnome Beautifully said.
(DIR) Post #AQfSMJkVaQ52T2y05g by icedquinn@blob.cat
2022-12-16T14:58:18.862652Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@7 > I need a state so I can control your kidsIt's always the little Timmy protection act isn't it
(DIR) Post #AQfSXdVYSpEcvxMyFE by 7@collapsitarian.io
2022-12-16T15:00:21.031319Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@icedquinn It was such an ugly bit of sophistry, and Knowles was so full of himself with it because he's caught an anarchist off-guard with it and got to call an anarchist "authoritarian."
(DIR) Post #AQfSnWgxZccyQZHUH2 by icedquinn@blob.cat
2022-12-16T15:03:13.956605Z
3 likes, 0 repeats
@7 smh didn't destroy the statist with how they put kids with pedophiles just to see what happens or steal children from poor parents only to give them to foster families that murder them
(DIR) Post #AQfT7Jxic05wjrYhFI by icedquinn@blob.cat
2022-12-16T15:06:48.317988Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@bot @7 statists are literally always using fear of children to pass their stupid shit.
(DIR) Post #AQfTLfDkN090j0tY9Y by icedquinn@blob.cat
2022-12-16T15:09:25.014712Z
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@bot @7 the state doesn't have that obligation. They ruled they have no duty to protect.
(DIR) Post #AQfU1n5ZVTbrI39u2y by icedquinn@blob.cat
2022-12-16T15:16:56.705508Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@bot @7 neither the state nor kther parents intervened when I was getting abused daily so I'm not sure what the point of your trolling is
(DIR) Post #AQfU9C4N1mNWnF7vOq by 7@collapsitarian.io
2022-12-16T15:18:20.914860Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@bot @icedquinn Oh, dear, just fuck a tranny and get it over with, your obsession is just weird. You're the one who brought up "randoms" -- but it wouldn't be randoms. It would be you, the kind of person who spies on their neighbors.
(DIR) Post #AQfVW6j99klwq4gome by httpicu@iamterminally.online
2022-12-16T15:31:34.247732Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@7 @icedquinn @bot Idk, this entire argument still assumes that without government, we'd have entire systems in place for dealing with abused kids after taking them from parents. Is the anarchist state going to have a system for foster care? Helping kids deal with the trauma of what they went through? Does due process / innocent until proven guilty still apply with no government, or are claims of abuse enough?I'm not saying our systems now are perfect, they fail kids every day. But dismantling it and just going after other people's kids directly, while noble and much more proactive, is just asking for problems. I am curious how "law enforcement" (idk what else to call it) would work in a truly anarchist society. Im big into victims rights and true crime so I'm pretty familiar with the successes and failures expected with the current system, in America at least.
(DIR) Post #AQfVhSUcZXSRWtJ9sm by 7@collapsitarian.io
2022-12-16T15:35:44.847650Z
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@bot @icedquinn What you imagine in that little head of yours, with your constant fantasies of trannies, is of little relation to what is "real", so I have no idea what you're trying to say.
(DIR) Post #AQfWjOt92oPisrGiRs by 7@collapsitarian.io
2022-12-16T15:47:16.795447Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@httpicu @icedquinn @bot This is all fair, but it precludes a lot of systems that only came into existence from the sacrifice of certain rights for others. Foster programs are unnecessary where a community is ready to support, and without the expectation of a superior authority figure the demand for community to be able to manage such a situation is raised. And I'm not saying what we have should be dismantled either -- there's a lot of putting words in people's mouths when it comes to anarchy, and I try my best to not speak for other anarchists when I speak so sometimes I might leave things vague.The assumption that we take them from their parents, alone, fascinates me because it's so rare to happen now but people think it happens all the time. Someone else in this thread wasn't taken away when it happened, and I'm sure fedi is full of stories of where the state failed. But there are people, within the state, who would not cease to exist if the state suddenly did -- their role would just become more local than it previously would.I brought up the kind of people who spy on neighbors because in a community, you have all types. The Karens, the loud guys working on cars or bikes, the nerds that never leave their house, the dog people, the cat people that hate the dog people, and every one of them is building a relationship with their neighbors whether passively or actively whether a state exists or not. Without that superior authority, social enforcement takes a much more adaptable form -- If you hear your neighbor beat his kid and then see him at the grocery store with the kid having a black eye, you confront him. "Hey, you should know we hear the shit you're doing, and if we catch you beating your kid we're going to give you a taste of your own medicine. We're here to talk if you need to; don't take your shit out on the kid." And, in that extreme case where the father then runs with the kid, you have a larger problem to be sure. Is the wife still with the community? Then the community might have to muster men to de-escalate the situation. The difference I see is that we're not dependent on the budgets and whims and legal chicanery from hundreds or thousands of miles away to address problems, often ending up using a machete where a scalpel is sufficent. Instead, we are dependent on ourselves and our relationships, and the demand for the relationships that address short and long-term concerns will lead to stronger, more resilient individuals, families, and communities.But that's just me. Thank you for coming to my TED talk.
(DIR) Post #AQfXFAVW343JY3Mf7g by 7@collapsitarian.io
2022-12-16T15:53:02.531946Z
3 likes, 0 repeats
@bot @icedquinn @httpicu Aww, did I use too big of words for you? Go fantasize about tranny-graf, little one, the grown ups are talking.
(DIR) Post #AQfZAn4hQaeZcirTYu by aven@shitposter.club
2022-12-16T16:14:38.247625Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@7 to me the problem with the argument is> "I consider it authoritarian that anarchists would prevent me from using a government to [...]"which is a piece of inside-out sophistry, when connected to the vast majority of things, like "stop people from drinking alcohol".but by connecting it to "stop child abuse" it at least appears to be legitimized.The anarchist answer, I think, is usually "you don't need to use the government to [...], you do it youself, within NAP."With alcohol, this is cultural: if you don't want people to drink alcohol, you have to convince them voluntarily, instead of banning it.With something like slavery, the anarchist argument is that you also don't need government, because slavery violates NAP, and vigilante action is justified to free the slave.Child abuse is tricky, because for the same reason the child can't consent to being beaten (and thus it is abuse), they cannot consent to getting new parents (being rescued), so it's difficult to differentiate between vigilante rescuing and NAP-violating abduction.The minarchist solution would be to take the parent to court and sue to have the child removed from the abusive home. It's difficult for me to say how different this is from "using a government to", but it's kind of an edge case, since a child both has rights, but is also in a way property of their parents, and cannot independently consent to go with the stranger-danger candy-van.I definitely agree that "I consider it authoritarian that anarchists would prevent me from using a government to [...]"rustles my jimmies with sheer sophistry, though.
(DIR) Post #AQfZmuBpQHPQh7N2Ey by aven@shitposter.club
2022-12-16T16:21:34.680677Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@icedquinn @7 this is a powerful pragmatic argument. Project Veritas recently had an HHS (Heath and Human Services) whistleblower about "migrant" unaccompanied minors being knowingly placed with human traffickers and being PIMPED by their new "parents".HHS Whistleblower Says Government Complicit in Trafficking; Child Admits Being ‘Pimped’ by Sponsorhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1B-L_wfbhXc
(DIR) Post #AQfaO8Hdz9Qz7VqGjg by 7@collapsitarian.io
2022-12-16T16:28:16.533958Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@aven Thank you for this, there's a lot of great points in here. The one thing that stands out, though, is the separating of the child and the parent as the apparent solution. Does this actually happen often? I don't have statistics in front of me but I know more people who got away from abusive parents by going to juvenile hall than by being taken away by the state. It seems like we've skipped a lot of non-forceful options to get to this place where a child is separated from the parent, and we've overestimated just how often it actually happens; for the most part, the state can do nothing for you unless your father is BTK, as far as I can tell.
(DIR) Post #AQfawWLF2p6pa3vFL6 by 7@collapsitarian.io
2022-12-16T16:34:27.256410Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@aven Just to continue on that, I would not be surprised if the most common way in the modern age to prevent child abuse is divorce.
(DIR) Post #AQfbSrNMNL8i5FKkVM by icedquinn@blob.cat
2022-12-16T16:40:21.357173Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@7 @aven i think generally you're just supposed to get abused until you're 18 and then spend someodd thousands of dollars on therapy. or become a monster.separating parents and children is sorta going directly against some biological imperatives.
(DIR) Post #AQfbX7Yq8pBdRIje3E by icedquinn@blob.cat
2022-12-16T16:41:07.405945Z
3 likes, 0 repeats
@7 @aven if you actually see the footage of masked NZ armed goons coming to steal the parents' baby so they can force operate on it it makes you want to shoot someone at a primal level
(DIR) Post #AQfcDXmx1BAqwfZ3BI by aven@shitposter.club
2022-12-16T16:48:48.210385Z
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@7 I think a lot of people (myself included in my previous post) skip the nuance, because the nuance gets very messy, and I only know enough to know that there's an ocean of things I don't know. We just assume that the hypothetical involves something clearly beyond the pale, and that the parent refuses to give up the child willingly.Otherwise the nuances and gray areas derail the conversation from justified force quickly, into "is spanking abuse?", or "what if the child is 17 and wants to be independent? 16? 15? 14?", or "can a grandparent take custody?". The reality of situations is broad and deep. Then again, all real situations are real, and not hypothetical.Again, I'm no expert on the subject, but isn't Juvenile Hall for criminal offenders? It would get them out of the house, but in its own ways could be bad for them....You're right that there's a whole range of non-aggression intervention that an anarchist could do. Maybe if all such options are exhausted, the anarchist just has to back off and hope the child makes it to 18? Honestly that might be better than a state with power to threaten to take your kids away for questioning the narrative (Alex Jones). It could be another situation where the state claims it can help, but does more harm than good.
(DIR) Post #AQfcyW677elJJMvTKy by 7@collapsitarian.io
2022-12-16T16:57:15.911639Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@aven > The reality of situations is broad and deep. Then again, all real situations are real, and not hypothetical.It makes it tough, if you're trying to answer for every case, but I don't think every case can be answered for with the same brush with or without the system we have. We haven't even breached into preventative social measures and immediate assistance for cases where the conflict is mutual, and the rabbit hole just gets deeper and deeper. But that's kind of to my point -- the family and the community, whatever that might be, will be better equipped than the state to intervene where and how intervention is necessary, without applying undue force that, with time, becomes just accepted as normal.> Again, I'm no expert on the subject, but isn't Juvenile Hall for criminal offenders? Yes. And if you want to get away and stay away because you're fighting your father every day, then "at least the meals are better."> Maybe if all such options are exhausted, the anarchist just has to back off and hope the child makes it to 18?This is what everyone does now, regardless. If we want something better for children, we should speak with their parents; build a relationship. If someone just needs to fight, perhaps you can put the gloves on with them and help them channel that energy.
(DIR) Post #AQfd7u9R3rEWWCxLJg by m0th@husk.site
2022-12-16T16:54:01.892699Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@7 This is “can god make a cage he can’t break out of” tier head-up-ass. Fuck Michael Knowles.
(DIR) Post #AQfdFbH387kUHxBeuO by m0th@husk.site
2022-12-16T16:55:25.419758Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@7 @icedquinn @bot Bot chaser vs egg arc. It’s a toss up.
(DIR) Post #AQfdrExaXb0I5U24cC by aven@shitposter.club
2022-12-16T17:07:09.839328Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@7 now you've got me wondering if it is another Simpsons Lovejoy "Won't somebody please think of the children!" for government intervention where it does more harm than good, or at least less good than conscientious individuals and voluntary community."I AM thinking of the children, the children that the state placed with two daddies and caught Monkeypox, a sexually transmitted disease."
(DIR) Post #AQfevTkTbDp548U5s8 by httpicu@iamterminally.online
2022-12-16T17:08:29.360654Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@7 @icedquinn @bot >The assumption that we take them from their parents, alone, fascinates me because it's so rare to happen now but people think it happens all the time. This point is definitely the strongest. Kids hardly ever get taken away from their parents until it's either too late (multiple instances of physical, sexual, and/or mental abuse) or they are in a bodybag. It's definitely an issue I flip flop on though. My significant other drives around with a "Shoot your local pedo" sticker on their car for example, lol. But I do wonder how forensics and proving the more hidden aspects of abuse would work. Some cases are obvious, a lot of them are. It's not too hard to identify an abused kid. I guess the problems that I'm caught up on are when people get to Larry Nassar levels and abuse their power unchecked. Or people like Peter Scully who go to a different country to create & distribute sick shit. That's separate from local community watching though, at that point it's national or international. At the same time though, everything is local to somewhere, which is basically how things work now across jurisdictions & state lines. Unless the FBI is involved.
(DIR) Post #AQfhAn5iANlNJ7qVaS by SheistyPenguin@chudbuds.lol
2022-12-16T17:41:53.221958Z
2 likes, 1 repeats
@7I recall reading some interesting points made about this by Rothbard, when asked adjacent questions around the topic of: "when does a child gain rights independently of their parents?" His oversimplified answer was basically: when the child asserts those rights, by leaving or running away.Anecdotally, I had a friend who was from a nice middle-class household, but whose parents were extremely strict and controlling. By his teenage years, they had become so overbearing that the relationship turned verbally and physically abusive. By his senior year of high school, he self-emancipated and stayed with a friend for the rest of the school year. He ducked out of the graduation ceremony early to avoid his parents, went to college on scholarships, and carried on with his life.It turned out well for him because he had a lot of inner strength (that people didn't suspect), but also he had a good upbringing, good education, and a good support network of friends who wanted him to succeed. His odds would have likely been much worse if he was born into an environment with high crime and poverty.Along those lines, I think charities or organizations that help teens self-emancipate would be the most NAP-friendly alternative to a top -down foster care system. But there is some chicken-egg to it- if you are raised in a shitty environment and you don't have a support network of peers, then it is unlikely you will even reach whatever resources are available.It's definitely one of those situations where perfect is the enemy of good, and there will always be edge-cases that fall through the cracks. I don't know how charity-led orphanages stack up against State-sponsored programs in terms of outcomes. I know foster care has pretty dismal outcomes, when observed in a vacuum.@aven