Post AQZJptpcRlbCEld2ES by vidar@m.galaxybound.com
(DIR) More posts by vidar@m.galaxybound.com
(DIR) Post #AQZDK3ARbLWOCTnbuK by RPelletier@zirk.us
2022-12-13T14:13:47Z
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@bookstodon I'd love to get people's opinion on something:I hear many, many people say that, as they get older, they prefer reading non-fiction over fiction. I'm curious to hear why.
(DIR) Post #AQZDPe0W3ilFuAp56m by amerika@noagendasocial.com
2022-12-13T14:42:35Z
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@RPelletier @bookstodon 1. Most fiction is not worth the time.2. Most literary "sources" promote bad fiction.3. Non-fiction makes us more powerful and usually is less likely to manipulate us.4. Non-fiction is usually more interesting than what people come up with in fiction.1% of 1% of fiction output is plausibly literature and should be preserved. The rest is neurosis and attempts to control us.
(DIR) Post #AQZDVV9bt8iwBUryBE by greyknight33@noagendasocial.com
2022-12-13T14:43:39Z
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@RPelletier @bookstodon maybe we get enough fiction in the press and all the fake ppl we interact with. just nice to have real life once in a while (and non-fiction should include fiction masked as non-fiction like a book by obama and other media pundants).
(DIR) Post #AQZEnpn9znOBMHfsDw by vidar@m.galaxybound.com
2022-12-13T14:58:07Z
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@amerika @RPelletier @bookstodon Personally I find a very large proportion of non-fiction is if anything *more* likely to try to manipulate. A lot of it openly, a lot more by the choice of viewpoint. People are often blind to this when something is presented as fact.
(DIR) Post #AQZG26zOx84OhglvM0 by amerika@noagendasocial.com
2022-12-13T15:11:56Z
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@vidar @RPelletier @bookstodon It definitely depends. I feel manipulated when I read most newspapers or fallen publications like The Atlantic.But reading phys.org and sciencemag.com, if I avoid the obviously slanted PR articles, there is less of an issue.A good non-fiction book does not hide the fact that it is author opinion supported by facts, like a good history, whether Jared Diamond or David Irving.
(DIR) Post #AQZG5bfNLvzMiQ4Ulc by amerika@noagendasocial.com
2022-12-13T15:12:34Z
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@vidar @RPelletier @bookstodon But I would rather read something that does not have emotional manipulation, which fiction tends to use extensively.That and most of the fiction now is utter garbage: proficient at the craft, without substance, and neurotic to the core.
(DIR) Post #AQZGr9coudaveBY54K by vidar@m.galaxybound.com
2022-12-13T15:21:09Z
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@amerika @RPelletier @bookstodon Non-fiction writing applies emotional manipulation all the time. Something as simple as the choice of a single word can make a vast difference. E.g. do you describe someone as immigrants or refugees? The Chicago Haymarket Affair or the Chicago Haymarket Massacre? Terrorist or freedom fighter?While it may be less of an issue w/science articles, even there the choice of material introduces a bias. A bias is not inherently *bad*. Often it's the right thing.
(DIR) Post #AQZH4upkhfmDpJ9x9U by amerika@noagendasocial.com
2022-12-13T15:23:39Z
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@vidar @RPelletier @bookstodon Back to Hunter S. Thompson, I see.I do not disagree; removing bias is impossible.However, in fiction, manipulating emotion through the course of the story is part of the genre.Political bias as you describe is generally filtered out already. People choose books based on "safety" to their own views.This is why I do not read Howard Zinn or George Lincoln Rockwell.
(DIR) Post #AQZHikp7LAtqMbrK5I by likewise@home.social
2022-12-13T15:22:21Z
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@vidar @amerika @RPelletier Agreed.
(DIR) Post #AQZHitTp9iDNDAxwe0 by amerika@noagendasocial.com
2022-12-13T15:30:50Z
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@likewise @vidar @RPelletier I think this misses the point that fiction in general is more emotionally involved.Then again, if you want to use sci-fi to push a political agenda, you might argue the opposite.
(DIR) Post #AQZHswJlSZLMuO3CxU by vidar@m.galaxybound.com
2022-12-13T15:32:40Z
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@amerika @RPelletier @bookstodon Fiction is largely honest about it. You go into fiction knowing it's not trying to pretend to reflect reality, and knowing it's telling you an intentional lie.Non-fiction is far more likely to *dishonestly* try to portray itself as unbiased.That, to me, is the most dangerous kind of writing. E.g. the average newspaper is far *extremely* manipulative in things as basic as their bias in selection of facts. Even those whose reporting is otherwise precise.
(DIR) Post #AQZI6xQu6uOoQB4gEa by amerika@noagendasocial.com
2022-12-13T15:35:14Z
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@vidar @RPelletier @bookstodon With non-fiction, you may have a political bias.With fiction, that political bias is cloaked in emotional manipulation.Therefore, it is easier to sort out in non-fiction.I think people are referring to books here more than newspapers. Almost everyone I know has abandoned the press or knows the bias of favorite sources.At this point, it is no longer a secret that the BBC, NYT, and Guardian are Left-leaning and WSJ is centrist.
(DIR) Post #AQZIHfTLECszu1K0Dg by amerika@noagendasocial.com
2022-12-13T15:37:10Z
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@vidar @RPelletier @bookstodon I will add here that the source of this bias is the thesis itself.To write a persuasive book, you need to adopt a thesis and argue for it.In fiction, the thesis is not explicitly stated, but gestured at through emotionally-significant events for the characters.
(DIR) Post #AQZJBXDr5UkMX6iY0O by vidar@m.galaxybound.com
2022-12-13T15:47:14Z
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@amerika @RPelletier @bookstodon There's plenty of political fiction that is very honest about its thesis and plenty of non-fiction which is not. But people tend to be less likely to interpret the fiction - whether it hides a thesis or not - as something to be taken as is. Readers are more likely to reinterpret according to their own biases (e.g. the number of readers of Animal Farm who interprets it as a warning against socialism; failing to realise Orwell was a lifelong socialist)
(DIR) Post #AQZJiHh7qCLnvk1aSm by amerika@noagendasocial.com
2022-12-13T15:53:11Z
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@vidar @RPelletier @bookstodon Or the number of people who fail to realize that Orwell was covering up for the critique of Socialism and Consumerism in "Brave New World"!However, your argument is bad. "Some don't do this" does not equate to "this is not the general tendency."http://nizkor.com/features/fallacies/biased-sample.htmlIn general, fiction is more emotionally manipulative.I do not think we can get past that.Also, "Animal Farm" is obvious allegory and political writing. Sort of like Ayn Rand.
(DIR) Post #AQZJkiW15oBbh0zLc0 by amerika@noagendasocial.com
2022-12-13T15:53:37Z
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@vidar @RPelletier @bookstodon Or even "Starship Troopers."Then there are political works which do not take a side per se, like "The Martian Chronicles."
(DIR) Post #AQZJptpcRlbCEld2ES by vidar@m.galaxybound.com
2022-12-13T15:48:35Z
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@amerika @RPelletier @bookstodon Non-fiction - whether its honest about its thesis or not - tends to be more likely to convince and change opinion. And that makes the biases in non-fiction far more insidious.
(DIR) Post #AQZJpuIKj0ZFfp3xzM by amerika@noagendasocial.com
2022-12-13T15:54:33Z
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@vidar @RPelletier @bookstodon Non-fiction forces statement of a clear thesis, more than a feeling. At some point, it must state what it is thinking plainly.This is different from the invisible manipulation of fiction.
(DIR) Post #AQZUW5SSbppa04YG8W by tarperfume@refusal.biz
2022-12-13T16:37:40.274183Z
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@amerika @vidar @RPelletier @bookstodon >In general, fiction is more emotionally manipulative.it's funny you put it that way, because i agree wholeheartedly, just feel like most fiction, and even most authors, aren't really under any pretension that they're slick about that manipulation, to the point where it's not really an underhand right, it's a featurea communist friend of mine always argued for the power of political fiction to orient people to revolution or revolutionary thought. an example she often brought up and i quite liked was "Death of a Salesman" - people wept seeing that movie, tons of working class to middle class men and women, and they only partially understood why it was so hard for them to see depicted this microcosm of economic struggle. but it worked! in that sense. it didn't lead to the organisation of those crying audience members into a union or whatever, but that's not the point, that's only the artificial scaffolding that supports (and imo hinders more often) the organic solidarity that you need to cultivate in people to do... anything, of that level political. and DoaS could do thatpolitical fiction is the most pitfall-y genre of writing that i wholeheartedly love
(DIR) Post #AQZUW6B7vlYmEbRvl2 by tarperfume@refusal.biz
2022-12-13T16:41:25.767355Z
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@amerika @RPelletier @bookstodon @vidar rand is a curious case, and i like that you mentioned her. people rag on a lot about her writing, but as someone who's gone through both of her main novels, stodgy motherfuckers than they are, i do not believe i could have finished a non fiction treatise by her covering the same topic that was 1/10 the lengthand rand's novels are barely fiction, it's the thinnest veneer, she openly speaks through the character's mouths, on occasion for dozens of pages uninterrupted lol. but that simple veneer does wonders for digestibility
(DIR) Post #AQZUW6pXVVt0FwMCkS by RPelletier@zirk.us
2022-12-13T17:04:30Z
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@tarperfume @bookstodon @vidar @amerika@noagendasocial.com This! "Barely fiction" is exactly right, and, btw, 'stodgy' is a kind way to put it.
(DIR) Post #AQZUW7OHQLfvzgbwtk by tarperfume@refusal.biz
2022-12-13T17:54:02.969687Z
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@RPelletier @bookstodon @vidar i feel a weird impulse to defend rand whenever she comes up, as a writer instead of a thinker, and i don't know why, cause it's not like i really *like* her novels - but her style is undeniable hers, she does not blendstodgy is kind, yes, but i did get through them! it wasn't even hard when i did! so it feels like while it's definitely true, if i were to characterise them as much worse than "stodgy" it would be a kind of dishonesty you know?
(DIR) Post #AQZV7nviE8QcdqDdKK by RPelletier@zirk.us
2022-12-13T17:03:11Z
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@tarperfume @bookstodon @vidar @amerika@noagendasocial.com One of my high school English teachers told me I was "cold and heartless" when I pointed out that Willy Loman was lying to his employer and probably deserved to be fired...She was right, of course: I was heartless, but, more importantly, I was spectacularly missing the point...
(DIR) Post #AQZVHJoL3z687pJ4kK by tarperfume@refusal.biz
2022-12-13T18:02:38.428742Z
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@RPelletier @bookstodon @vidar yes, but missing the point is a great seed for the "manipulation" to hit harder, right?because the longer you miss it, the bigger the impact of looking back and thinking "oh hey this way of thinking about "deserving" things is limited or shitty and is being actively dismantled by the narrative"
(DIR) Post #AQZdSmpGKHbIvqiZqS by RPelletier@zirk.us
2022-12-13T18:54:16Z
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@tarperfume @bookstodon @vidar I read both 'Atlas Shrugged' and 'Fountainhead', so I get you that she is "read-able" in the technical sense. I think I see what you mean about her writing - it's not her word-craft that's bad. I do think she's a bad thinker, though, and I think that extends to her story-craft. I would be more forgiving if she let the stories speak for themselves (they aren't subtle, certainly), but the endless polemical asides nearly killed me.
(DIR) Post #AQZdom77eal35wYaPo by tarperfume@refusal.biz
2022-12-13T19:38:19.414826Z
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@RPelletier @bookstodon @vidar the story is bad in a lot of levels that definitely affect enjoyment - pacing, theming, repetition; but in the moment to moment writing, aesthetically, i think she can create some really striking imagery. it was *easy* for me to imagine all of the book in this strange semi animated style where sharp lines and planes drawn by a cocky arrogant hand dominated. the tone was alive in a very specific way, it wasn't a vibe, or a sensation, it was a presence> I would be more forgiving if she let the stories speak for themselves (they aren't subtle, certainly), but the endless polemical asides nearly killed me.i can live with being directly exposited to, i just require beauty to go along with it.ultimately though, yeah, they're not good books. they're just not. fuck, the john galt speech lol
(DIR) Post #AQZh3SQpPhL6G3T0Vs by Island_Martha@epicure.social
2022-12-13T20:14:41Z
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@amerika @RPelletier @bookstodon Every one of these statements is inaccurate or wrong or both. IMO.