Post AQ5vB0fw44DP6dEMyW by mykd@mastodon.social
(DIR) More posts by mykd@mastodon.social
(DIR) Post #AQ5iZ00kt2vkal4sWO by tiago@social.skewed.de
2022-11-29T09:10:15Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
I see many people commenting that the atmosphere here on the #fediverse is more friendly and less toxic than twitter, which seems to feed outrage, etc.They almost always attribute this to the technical implementations of the platform, such as lack of algorithmic post promotion, quote tweet, moderation, etc.Although the intent of these choices was to suppress the negative aspects of twitter, I honestly doubt they have any substantial effect.The most obvious and likely explanation is that the people that interact here are just different than those on twitter, and those that mover here from there are just a particular subset.If and when the great masses appear on the #fediverse, it will all change, and none of these implementation details will matter.
(DIR) Post #AQ5irrzSvr5nDZTMwq by johnywrites@mstdn.jp
2022-11-29T09:13:40Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@tiago I think mastodon might potentially be the right place for extremists. They are yet to realize it though.
(DIR) Post #AQ5itz6PSdU7r2jGSW by BradRubenstein@infosec.exchange
2022-11-29T09:14:02Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@tiago The largest technical difference seems to be the federated architecture, which really does seem to change the balance of power and accountability of administration and moderation.Algorithmic choice is a "nice to have". Federation is a "need to have".
(DIR) Post #AQ5j2vSYNGNJA9LltA by BradRubenstein@infosec.exchange
2022-11-29T09:15:40Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@tiago I'd argue the most consequential difference is technical: the federated architecture. It really does seem to change the balance of power and accountability of administration and moderation.Algorithmic choice is a "nice to have". Federation is a "need to have".
(DIR) Post #AQ5jCqooU4bRfHUjT6 by tiago@social.skewed.de
2022-11-29T09:17:29Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@johnywrites I actually agree. Decentralization and federation are great protections against censorship. People don't like to hear this nowadays, but a direct and unavoidable consequence of having strong free speech protection is that we end up hearing more extremist voices.
(DIR) Post #AQ5jQGpH6HKe5e6qhM by tiago@social.skewed.de
2022-11-29T09:19:53Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@BradRubenstein I agree! Federation makes (centralized) censorship much harder, and self-governance much easier.But free speech and self-governance always cut both ways: trolls and hateful extremists can also use it.
(DIR) Post #AQ5jU6YrCrcBPeG69Q by BradRubenstein@infosec.exchange
2022-11-29T09:20:35Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@tiago Yes, but I can choose not to federate with them.
(DIR) Post #AQ5je4oqXRbquCUasC by BradRubenstein@infosec.exchange
2022-11-29T09:22:22Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@tiago Yes, but I can choose not to federate with them, so perhaps it matters a bit less.The people who are commenting that #onhere is less toxic than twitter are simply insulated (even now) from the fediverse of trolls. Seems to work ok.
(DIR) Post #AQ5k2xNZKxc74Qb64u by tiago@social.skewed.de
2022-11-29T09:26:53Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@BradRubenstein The idea of cutting ties with unwanted speech is not very different from imposing travel restrictions to stop a pandemic. It only works if the “infected” population is relatively small, otherwise it becomes a massive effort.
(DIR) Post #AQ5kFPmPZOC6d29pyq by BradRubenstein@infosec.exchange
2022-11-29T09:24:19Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@tiago Also, my instance admin (👋 @jerry) is a g.d. knight in shining armor (who I'd have a beer with).My admin at the bird site? Not so much.
(DIR) Post #AQ5kFQHxg5QoCsv29o by tiago@social.skewed.de
2022-11-29T09:29:08Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@BradRubenstein @jerry I wonder how @jerry would handle a hoard of trolls increasing by two orders of magnitude, and coming from most instances.But in any case, this is not really about outright nazi trolls posting swastikas, but more about the general atmosphere and tone of the place. You can't really moderate this.
(DIR) Post #AQ5o3BGy54nnyds8SO by lapingvino@neurodifferent.me
2022-11-29T10:11:41Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@tiago mind you that this is NOT a new platform, the Fediverse is around for a good time and already had the issues you are worried about in the past. You are experiencing a battle tested system, not a random new thing. If you read the messages from people on ill-moderated instances you know that your fears are already reality -- if you don't close yourself off right.
(DIR) Post #AQ5oHl3PqL6R0OU4q8 by tiago@social.skewed.de
2022-11-29T10:14:23Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@lapingvino You're missing my point completely. I've been here since 2018, so please don't lecture me on how old this is.This is not a battle tested system if the number of users is tiny compared to any mainstream social network. It doesn't matter how old it is.
(DIR) Post #AQ5oZFsySuRFYCwYhU by lapingvino@neurodifferent.me
2022-11-29T10:12:28Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@tiago These things were NOT implemented to suppress the negative aspects of Twitter. They were implemented because free speech is super attractive to nazis.
(DIR) Post #AQ5oZGRMP3wbGr21IW by tiago@social.skewed.de
2022-11-29T10:17:32Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@lapingvino It's super attractive to non-nazis as well.In fact, if you really hate nazis, you will refuse to use their means — censorship, violence, etc — instead of embracing them.
(DIR) Post #AQ5on8opXJiNggcuHI by lapingvino@neurodifferent.me
2022-11-29T10:20:02Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@tiago My account I moved from was from 2018, but I am around for a good bit longer than that. What most people seem to ignore is that this is not a technical but a social issue, and that you need tools that fit this approach. I also used to work at a company that does the moderation for the big companies, so I know how things are approached there.What you see when there is a big influx is several things:1. many servers shut down new entries because they don't have the capacity.2. the servers that do take in new people are either good with moderation or not.3. the servers that are good with moderation are generally well propagated.4. servers that moderate badly get a bad reputation in the network and have a hard time getting federated.Of course, you can be on a server that suffers huge issues, but that is a choice. We WILL suffer things, and we will find solutions, like has been done when Gab entered the game. Those instances are still there and very prolific, and it's not for nothing that most sane instances block them.So I don't doubt that what you describe happens. I only worry about WHERE it happens.
(DIR) Post #AQ5oqYSUfHoY4no3tY by sibrosan@mastodon.social
2022-11-29T10:15:54Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@tiago > it will all change, and none of these implementation details will matter. <I beg to disagree. On Mastodon, several Twitter "features" are missing that are specifically prone to abuse by trolls.In addition, you have the option to choose an instance based on its rules and how well these are enforced. Other instances may be blocked.Sure, trolls may reign in some parts of the fediverse, but they won't be as easily able to spoil the atmosphere for users who don't want any of that.
(DIR) Post #AQ5oqZIbXXUwgQBg7U by tiago@social.skewed.de
2022-11-29T10:20:40Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sibrosan You assume “trolls” will concentrate on particular small instances, instead of appearing on most of them.But my argument was not about outright trolls, but the general tone and atmosphere of the place. You can't moderate this.
(DIR) Post #AQ5ozWfqfYrX9EKZu4 by lapingvino@neurodifferent.me
2022-11-29T10:22:17Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@tiago refusing to listen to people bringing you down and setting healthy boundaries is not censorship. It's setting boundaries. The fediverse sets boundaries and everyone CAN but doesn't HAVE to federate with everyone they want to federate with. You see that the same approach is used internationally. Rogue countries are isolated and have a hard time. They survive, but they have a hard time. With this difference that with the Fediverse every individual actually has a choice to move elsewhere.
(DIR) Post #AQ5pR9b83jvDgeIUs4 by tiago@social.skewed.de
2022-11-29T10:27:17Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@lapingvino It's amazing that use the global imperialist order as an analogy of how the #fediverse is supposed to work. My goodness!Anyway, this is all fantasy. We will see how this isolationist stance will work if/when the overall user count is multiplied by 100 or 1000.
(DIR) Post #AQ5pRmPRl6ka3i8DZo by lapingvino@neurodifferent.me
2022-11-29T10:27:24Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@tiago also your wording supposes I hate people. No, I have a great dislike for people twisting the truth and making life impossible for other people. I think free speech is super important for minorities to be heard, which is something we manage to cultivate here. Free speech is often reinterpreted to mean that everyone should listen to you, which is simply not the case and dangerous. If you use your free speech to silence other people, you didn't really understand it (or rather, you understand it and intentionally feed on misunderstandings, which is pretty evil).
(DIR) Post #AQ5peugyH8QtVmahu4 by lapingvino@neurodifferent.me
2022-11-29T10:29:45Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@tiago "global imperialist order" sounds like you are pretty opinionated about how things work and should work. That is fine, but I just gave an example using something everyone sees happening, because that is an actual reality. You can be idealistic but you have to understand reality how it is. And at this point everyone cries about how the Fediverse will degenerate into things people hate about Twitter, while we already know that and found a solution. And if necessary we will find a new one. Fear doesn't fix things, realism does.
(DIR) Post #AQ5qBAjGBad2W32m8m by tiago@social.skewed.de
2022-11-29T10:35:36Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@lapingvino Having free speech just for some kinds of speech or for some class of people is a trivial contradiction. Embracing free speech can *only* mean accepting speech you don't agree or like, from people you don't care for.You can respond, protest, etc, but not suppress. Otherwise, you are against free speech. This isn't that difficult.Speech suppression mechanisms always backfire, as history tells us over and over. You can't fight fire with fire.
(DIR) Post #AQ5qBdL9oHa1FgzR68 by sibrosan@mastodon.social
2022-11-29T10:35:35Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@tiago The reason for that assumption is that users who do not abide by the rules (for instance, harassing users or spreading #fakenews) can be quickly purged from an instance. IMO it's for a large part the presence and behaviour of trolls on Twitter that account for the negative atmosphere.True, within an instance's rules it's still possible to be obnoxious, but hardly as easy. And you can simply unfollow, mute and block accounts you really don't appreciate.
(DIR) Post #AQ5qOnTtPxQ8T5Lw0G by tiago@social.skewed.de
2022-11-29T10:38:04Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sibrosan I'll repeat what I said, since I don't think you considered it:But my argument was not about outright trolls, but the general tone and atmosphere of the place. You can't moderate this.
(DIR) Post #AQ5rbJBtRo96F8SnMe by sibrosan@mastodon.social
2022-11-29T10:51:30Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@tiago No need to repeat yourself. I considered it, and already explained why I don't agree. By the way, do you perhaps intend to prove your point by taking an unpleasantly belligerent stance yourself?
(DIR) Post #AQ5sHoap5Ml3nVOPYG by tiago@social.skewed.de
2022-11-29T10:59:12Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sibrosan Well, then I suppose I don't understand your point at all.We can unfollow, block and mute people on twitter too, so that can't be the solution.Since we are not talking about trolls or harassers, are you saying that we should ban people that we find annoying (or “unpleasantly belligerent”) from the platform?
(DIR) Post #AQ5scJ8PF4EWJQsADY by mykd@mastodon.social
2022-11-29T11:02:54Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@tiago It's interesting when you realise that Gab is on the fediverse, just not on the fediverse that people like to talk about.When people say it's nicer "here", they really mean in the bubble that they (and their admins) have created.As more people with no interest in the philosophy of the fediverse arrive, that "here" may end up being a tiny curated corner of a much louder and rowdier fediverse.
(DIR) Post #AQ5scdsW7L08eEbGro by sibrosan@mastodon.social
2022-11-29T11:02:59Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@tiago Well, no. What would make you think that?
(DIR) Post #AQ5sl4nduMrMSZLGNc by tiago@social.skewed.de
2022-11-29T11:04:31Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@mykd Indeed! And it will become harder and harder to keep that bubble isolated.
(DIR) Post #AQ5tKCT3OIWINQSZfc by tiago@social.skewed.de
2022-11-29T11:10:51Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sibrosan I said you can't moderate tone and general atmosphere, only outright trolls and abusive behavior. You said you disagreed, and mentioned purging people from an instance, or unfollowing/muting/blocking them. Since the latter does not seem to work on twitter, only the first option remained.
(DIR) Post #AQ5tKPvtKOJO8d3HvM by lapingvino@neurodifferent.me
2022-11-29T11:10:51Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@tiago Free speech is for all speech. I accept speech I don't like. That is not the issue.The one thing I don't tolerate is ACTION that actively destroys people's right to BE.The big nazi trick is making this acceptable by packaging it as free speech.If you don't agree with this you are behaving like a nazi. This isn't that difficult.Violence is always violence, as history tells us over and over. You can't fight violence with violence. Instead we chose not to engage and not to platform. That is the only way that works.
(DIR) Post #AQ5ttPo7mlTVsw6j5c by mykd@mastodon.social
2022-11-29T11:12:46Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@tiago I wonder if there are any "whitelist" server implementations, requiring the admin to actively authorise federation with new servers. I could imagine a lot of affinity-group instances going down that route...
(DIR) Post #AQ5ttQEiBuk5DOXxWy by tiago@social.skewed.de
2022-11-29T11:17:12Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@mykd I guess it's just a matter of adding regexp rules to limit federation, if this has not been done already.
(DIR) Post #AQ5vB0fw44DP6dEMyW by mykd@mastodon.social
2022-11-29T11:31:34Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@tiago I suspect it hasn't, as mastodon doesn't seem to be very linuxy in that sense. I was very disappointed to realise that I couldn't build my own comment filtering rules using rexexps 😃
(DIR) Post #AQ5yePV399oaMFqke8 by sibrosan@mastodon.social
2022-11-29T12:10:29Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@tiago If you read carefully, you should be able to recognize that I didn't disagree *with that*.I disagree with your apparent reasoning that tone and general atmosphere would not be significantly affected by the banning of users who do not abide by the rules enforced by an instance.
(DIR) Post #AQ61Ougvi1QAKHi0Ho by freekbomhof@mastodon.social
2022-11-29T12:41:18Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@tiago I think the trolls and bots have not yet invaded here. Plus, there is this sense like 'hey, this is new!' which will probably wear off over time.However, the possibility to defederate instances could be a powerful technical tool to fight toxicity.