Post APxyFkTmSCg6v8oj8C by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
(DIR) More posts by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
(DIR) Post #APcmfftGtUWBWZLfbU by shengokai@zirk.us
2022-11-15T08:58:05Z
1 likes, 1 repeats
I'm converting my mastodon critiques into a word document that I will likely use to post mastodon local versions of those large threads about mastodon that I've made on twitter.Having said that, I'm not really "anti-mastodon," as much as I am trying to point out that the fediverse does not have the tools to support the ways that marginalized groups built community on the bird site.And it really comes down to affordances of the platforms.
(DIR) Post #APcmfgUqdmZlP6vgAq by shengokai@zirk.us
2022-11-15T09:00:31Z
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By affordances, I mean in the STS sense which is parallel to the husserlian sense as enabling a human agent to extend themselves through an environment.This bit is important because I understand digital environments, like social media, in the truest sense of the word "environment." And this is where the Deweyan comes out: organisms, communities, cultures exist by means of an environment, through transaction with it.This is important for my critique of mastodon.
(DIR) Post #APcmfgzgn7FIwlMJFI by shengokai@zirk.us
2022-11-15T09:01:31Z
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(This is also important for my transactional theory of social media, coming soon whenever the fuck I clear this current slate of papers.)
(DIR) Post #APcmfhUsv8CQVVxDs0 by shengokai@zirk.us
2022-11-15T09:03:14Z
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When I say that a community emerges by means of the environment, I do not mean that the community structures form in response to the environment. I mean that the communities, and the organisms within them, incorporate the environment into themselves to maintain their patterns of action.This is also true of social media as an environment. The affordances of a platform are what enable communities for form by means of how they enable transactions among members.
(DIR) Post #APcmfhzj4Sry3ANqwS by shengokai@zirk.us
2022-11-15T09:05:20Z
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This gets me to the affordances that are crucial to the formation of things like Black Twitter, like Disability Twitter: hashtags and quote tweets. Now, some of this has been overcome through the addition of the ability to follow a hashtag, which itself is a recent invention. Hashtags, as Andre Brock notes, enable users to become identified with a conversation. They allow the conversation to take shape by means of the environment.They do not do this alone, however.
(DIR) Post #APcmfiXl1w5jkiJ1zE by shengokai@zirk.us
2022-11-15T09:07:03Z
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The quote tweet function in conjunction with the hashtag are what allow users to align with communities, and communities with conversations through how they enable cultural practices by means of a digital environment. On Black Twitter, the quote tweet and hashtag enable what Black cultural scholars call "call and response," something crucial to Black community practices. The hashtags curate the conversation and allow for its visibility.
(DIR) Post #APcmfj2FCaThHGZNVQ by shengokai@zirk.us
2022-11-15T09:08:30Z
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So, Mastodon's incorporation of the hashtag gets us part of the way to robust community formation like we had on twitter. It lays a ground work, but it does not enable the community formation in the same way because of the other affordances of the platform.Remember, communities form by means of their environment. Users take up the resources of the digital space to transform it into a cultural space capable of supporting this.
(DIR) Post #APcmfjTtXmb0f1VSbY by shengokai@zirk.us
2022-11-15T09:10:34Z
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I say part of the way, because absent some mechanism for "call and response," for playing the dozens, for becoming involved in conversations in the ways that the quote tweet enables, many Black digital practices will be stymied.Put another way, the environment will be unable to support the kind of cultural practices that enabled the formation of libidinally or affectively black spaces. And this is before we get to the ways the federated model increases the distance between users.
(DIR) Post #APcmfk4lKi5QVMku4O by Gabble@spinster.xyz
2022-11-15T09:27:08.281212Z
4 likes, 1 repeats
@shengokai What you’re saying is, these communities should set up instances using Soapbox, which has quote tweets.
(DIR) Post #APcmfqdivdcKrX9uOe by shengokai@zirk.us
2022-11-15T09:12:33Z
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To conclude, I'm not saying all of this to present mastodon in an unfair light: I'm saying all of this to make clear that the affordances of the platform impede how cultural groups will be able to use the "raw materials" of the platform to form their communities.I'm saying this to make clear the ways that mastodon is a different kind of environment, and these differences matter to how marginalized groups use the affordances to form community.
(DIR) Post #APcmfsfDP3zz8js800 by shengokai@zirk.us
2022-11-15T09:14:07Z
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I'm also saying this because many of the counter arguments to the formation of communities by marginalized folks on this platform ignore the culturally specific ways that these users take up the resources of the platform.On the bird site, I used Yancy's ontological expansion of whiteness to explain that, and I do believe that this tracks. That is, the assumption that works for white users, even white queer users, will work for everyone.
(DIR) Post #APcmfudA5fXpEwvW4m by shengokai@zirk.us
2022-11-15T09:16:31Z
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And this assumption, I think, is one of the crucial cultural barriers that needs to be overcome IF we want mastodon to be a "home" for folks who are not in the power majority. Now, I am aware of the design history of Mastodon, that queer folks had a hand in the development of the protocol. As a black queer man, I can tell you first hand that queerness is no bulwark against the inheritance and reproduction of whiteness. Which is to say that this history is no argument against the present.
(DIR) Post #APcmfwpHvYQu38cEFs by shengokai@zirk.us
2022-11-15T09:17:21Z
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Anyway, keep an eye out as I port over a whole collection of critiques about the platform and its ability to support certain kinds of communities.
(DIR) Post #APcmgWIE3xNQ31QKie by shengokai@zirk.us
2022-11-15T09:31:47Z
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@Gabble Possibly, maybe. I'd have to look at Soapbox, but this raises a broader issue: the communities that would need something like soapbox are the communities that do not have the material resources to host and run an instance. There's a resource issue there which can be overcome, but it's not as simple as "start up a black twitter instance," which is something I think has been done. That said the advice to "start an instance" is also part of the problem.
(DIR) Post #APcmgWoU81BHf4W608 by Gabble@spinster.xyz
2022-11-15T09:44:41.482185Z
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@shengokai But if you’re looking at the problem of current instances not meeting the needs of specific communities, the Fediverse solution is to join or set up instances that do. There are Soapbox instances out there, or you could ask around for support in setting one up. There are lots of very keen techies around on here who would gladly help with pointers around doing this, even if they strongly disagreed with you on other points: they just love this stuff.If you care about the material resource issue, you can overcome it. You only have true power and control if you own things yourself or as a community: anything given to you by others, no matter how well-intentioned, comes with strings attached. You don’t just have to accept the limits of Mastodon, or hope that people already running instances will accommodate you and your needs. Take back your own power.
(DIR) Post #APctgykww7Fk0K1c92 by Moon@shitposter.club
2022-11-15T11:28:20.456075Z
14 likes, 8 repeats
@shengokai Don't you just hate receiving Word documents in email messages? Word attachments are annoying, but, worse than that, they impede people from switching to free software. Maybe we can stop this practice with a simple collective effort. All we have to do is ask each person who sends us a Word file to reconsider that way of doing things.Most computer users use Microsoft Word. That is unfortunate for them, since Word is proprietary software, denying its users the freedom to study, change, copy, and redistribute it. And because Microsoft changes the Word file format with each release, its users are locked into a system that compels them to buy each upgrade whether they want a change or not. They may even find, several years from now, that the Word documents they are writing this year can no longer be read with the version of Word they use then.But it hurts us, too, when they assume we use Word and send us (or demand that we send them) documents in Word format. Some people publish or post documents in Word format. Some organizations will only accept files in Word format: I heard from someone that he was unable to apply for a job because resumes had to be Word files. Even governments sometimes impose Word format on the public, which is truly outrageous.For us users of free operating systems, receiving Word documents is an inconvenience or an obstacle. But the worst impact of sending Word format is on people who might switch to free systems: they hesitate because they feel they must have Word available to read the Word files they receive. The practice of using the secret Word format for interchange impedes the growth of our community and the spread of freedom. While we notice the occasional annoyance of receiving a Word document, this steady and persistent harm to our community usually doesn't come to our attention. But it is happening all the time.Many GNU users who receive Word documents try to find ways to handle them. You can manage to find the somewhat obfuscated ASCII text in the file by skimming through it. Free software today can read most Word documents, but not all—the format is secret and has not been entirely decoded. Even worse, Microsoft can change it at any time.Worst of all, it has already done so. Microsoft Office 2007 uses by default a format based on the patented OOXML format. (This is the one that Microsoft got declared an “open standard” by political manipulation and packing standards committees.) The actual format is not entirely OOXML, and it is not entirely documented. Microsoft offers a gratis patent license for OOXML on terms which do not allow free implementations. We are thus beginning to receive Word files in a format that free programs are not even allowed to read.When you receive a Word file, if you think of that as an isolated event, it is natural to try to cope by finding a way to read it. Considered as an instance of a pernicious systematic practice, it calls for a different approach. Managing to read the file is treating a symptom of an epidemic disease; what we really want to do is stop the disease from spreading. That means we must convince people not to send or post Word documents.I therefore make a practice of responding to Word attachments with a polite message explaining why the practice of sending Word files is a bad thing, and asking the person to resend the material in a nonsecret format. This is a lot less work than trying to read the somewhat obfuscated ASCII text in the Word file. And I find that people usually understand the issue, and many say they will not send Word files to others any more.If we all do this, we will have a much larger effect. People who disregard one polite request may change their practice when they receive multiple polite requests from various people. We may be able to give Don't send Word format! the status of netiquette, if we start systematically raising the issue with everyone who sends us Word files.To make this effort efficient, you will probably want to develop a canned reply that you can quickly send each time it is necessary. I've included two examples: the version I have been using recently, followed by a new version that teaches a Word user how to convert to other useful formats. They are followed by several suggestions sent by other people.You can use these replies verbatim if you like, or you can personalize them or write your own. By all means construct a reply that fits your ideas and your personality—if the replies are personal and not all alike, that will make the campaign more effective.These replies are meant for individuals who send Word files. When you encounter an organization that imposes use of Word format, that calls for a different sort of reply; there you can raise issues of fairness that would not apply to an individual's actions.Some recruiters ask for resumes in Word format. Ludicrously, some recruiters do this even when looking for someone for a free software job. (Anyone using those recruiters for free software jobs is not likely to get a competent employee.) To help change this practice, you can put a link to this page into your resume, next to links to other formats of the resume. Anyone hunting for a Word version of the resume will probably read this page.This page talks about Word attachments, since they are by far the most common case. However, the same issues apply with other proprietary formats, such as PowerPoint and Excel. Please feel free to adapt the replies to cover those as well, if you wish.With our numbers, simply by asking, we can make a difference.source: https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.en.html
(DIR) Post #APctqxpHFXVu0zoJKS by volume@fr13nd5.com
2022-11-15T11:30:09.106078Z
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@Gabble @shengokai 🔥
(DIR) Post #APcvBM4otb1wyOMqiu by minimammoth@mastodon.social
2022-11-15T09:17:15Z
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@shengokai I think you’re likely right, and it’s an issue. One question: doesn’t Mastodon offer different affordances that could in theory also be used to build community a different way? Or do the affordances required depend on the specific culture forming the community? (This question is obviously ignoring the important point that digital culture is also culture and different digital platforms and communities inherit from each other, obviously, I mean more generally)
(DIR) Post #APcvJtDzXJgo61j8xk by Moon@shitposter.club
2022-11-15T11:46:31.678352Z
3 likes, 1 repeats
@shengokai good morning thank you for your critique, I hope this message finds you well. The omission of quote posts is deliberate and based on observed enablement of widespread toxicity and mobbing. I have no doubt you are correct when you say it is useful for some people for non-toxic purposes (I miss them periodically myself) however the developer consensus (and only a consensus, there are a few projects that have them) here has been that it causes more problems than it solves. It is difficult to come up with a way to enable positive uses for the minority while discouraging the negative uses by the majority. I'm sure you can appreciate the observation that a tool embraced by marginalized groups can be appropriated and weaponized by the majority against those groups.You may be interested to know that a functionality "groups" are eventually coming to Mastodon and other ActivityPub platforms, which will be a much richer tool for community formation than we have right now. It won't completely address your base concerns but I think it will get us closer to the end goal you would like to achieve.I am not telling you you are wrong, but trying to explain another perspective. You of course are free to critique my explanation as well, just wanted to make you aware of where some of us are coming from.As a side note, I spent a couple years at university diving into Husserl, it's cool to see someone else using it.
(DIR) Post #APcvcL5MgmX9iYUPLM by spiritsplice@pieville.net
2022-11-15T11:49:55Z
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@shengokai faggots and niggers are in power you mutant retard. you are the establishment.
(DIR) Post #APcvhBwE7t4anNWrOC by spiritsplice@pieville.net
2022-11-15T11:50:48Z
1 likes, 2 repeats
@shengokai tf is this retarded kike psychobabble?
(DIR) Post #APcvsWwCOHlF6rvGRk by Moon@shitposter.club
2022-11-15T11:52:50.700521Z
1 likes, 2 repeats
@shengokai @Gabble oh btw there are services to run a managed instance of mastodon and soapbox that are affordable enough that one or two members can probably keep it paid for and not have to deal with technical issues at all.
(DIR) Post #APcvtGybDh0ttdOpZg by spiritsplice@pieville.net
2022-11-15T11:52:59Z
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@shengokai 700 flowers in 2 hours huh? lol. You feds are so full of shit.
(DIR) Post #APcvvCh27GGRBu6Ur2 by spiritsplice@pieville.net
2022-11-15T11:53:21Z
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@shengokai 700 followers in 2 hours huh? lol. You feds are so full of shit.
(DIR) Post #APcvwhTn8dvmxlcjcu by volume@fr13nd5.com
2022-11-15T11:53:36.902479Z
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@shengokai @Gabble Relevant to postal service failure how?Down
(DIR) Post #APcyFJ7W85sKpBCnU8 by ne@rdrama.cc
2022-11-15T12:19:23.081387Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@shengokai thats cool but please kill yourself
(DIR) Post #APcyacyhUgKeUfFQHY by sarvo@novoa.nagoya
2022-11-15T12:23:08.551Z
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@shengokai@zirk.us you are fucking retarded the entire fediverse is made for and by marginalized groups.
(DIR) Post #APcz162K4tHc96YzFw by w@arachnid.town
2022-11-15T12:24:33.998091Z
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@shengokai What's your opinion on reply + reposting? Does this not serve the same purpose?
(DIR) Post #APd03gRbmkcFb1BiYy by bushgrad@zov.oti.st
2022-11-15T12:39:41.087239Z
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I read as far as black twitter and just caught the bird site before passing out with laughter. Do people put this much effort into parody?
(DIR) Post #APd1ehljvHPCNCoykS by Moon@shitposter.club
2022-11-15T12:57:34.754498Z
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@corfiot @shengokai it looks like they will still be dependent on an individual server, meaning if that server goes down the group goes down too. not the worst thing but kinda sucky
(DIR) Post #APd1iHTfcErNzS4gPA by volume@fr13nd5.com
2022-11-15T12:58:14.179955Z
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@Moon @corfiot @shengokai How else to create absolute man over machine control?🤔
(DIR) Post #APd1ofwPZd99bGZEBM by volume@fr13nd5.com
2022-11-15T12:59:23.193671Z
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@Moon @corfiot @shengokai Singular point of control does not imply dictatorship, not if somebody put their John Hancock somewhere to have a say.🤷♂️
(DIR) Post #APd1x7SP9aUnFwYfA0 by Moon@shitposter.club
2022-11-15T13:00:50.700028Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@corfiot @shengokai yeah i agree, it's a really hard problem to solve that makes everybody happy
(DIR) Post #APd1ypITdxXPVqjEP2 by volume@fr13nd5.com
2022-11-15T13:01:13.592660Z
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@Moon @corfiot @shengokai
(DIR) Post #APd25ixLcIwjsG8OtE by volume@fr13nd5.com
2022-11-15T13:02:28.405568Z
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@Moon @corfiot @shengokai
(DIR) Post #APd2fTG5SSe1c5weky by Moon@shitposter.club
2022-11-15T13:08:49.582827Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@corfiot @volume @shengokai that's an AI bot
(DIR) Post #APd3glu9iWGfggs400 by volume@fr13nd5.com
2022-11-15T13:20:22.059323Z
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@Moon @corfiot @shengokai Totally.It’s also temporal so the ai turned Skynet, but stupid for it to come to our now, better split the atom sometime later and wait for fools to get back to the future.💌
(DIR) Post #APd9F537XmS8gEF9BA by shengokai@zirk.us
2022-11-15T09:25:21Z
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@minimammoth This may very well be the case. My thinking about social media community formation, borrowing from Brock, is that persons bring their cultural practices to the environment and those practices appropriate the affordances of the space an enable community and identity by means of the environment.How the affordances are used is relative to the community. If we take the existing affordances of mastodon, they lean very white.
(DIR) Post #APd9F5eLJOE8XfesCG by shengokai@zirk.us
2022-11-15T09:27:31Z
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@minimammoth That is, following Sara Ahmed, they inherit the whiteness of a broader community through how they afford within the digital environment. The CW and the norms around it, the federated suburban nature, the rules of etiquette expected of mastodonians all seem to be structured around a cultural model of preserving comfort. That is, a white cultural model.Insofar as the nature of the platform inherits whiteness, other communities are going to have to "push" to make room for themselves.
(DIR) Post #APd9FBK0DvWQ8KBiKG by shengokai@zirk.us
2022-11-15T09:29:18Z
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@minimammoth Ahmed actually notes this in "On Being Included" when she describes how people need to "wiggle" to make room in institutions that weren't built for them. This is, I think, the case with mastodon, and this wiggling from marginalized folks is being met with resistance from the broader mastodonian culture.Eventually, something is going to have to give, be it mastodon's institutional inertia or the willingness of communities to fight that inertia.
(DIR) Post #APdBWSePFPHsi46BgO by minimammoth@mastodon.social
2022-11-15T14:38:16Z
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@Corfiot ... wow. Seriously? You're calling black people ungrateful? Also, yes, often when something is created by one group, other groups need to wiggle and push back so that it can be inclusive for them. What's wrong with that? Would you prefer for the fedi to just not be inclusive?
(DIR) Post #APdCfCKBPvCAdSMy5g by minimammoth@mastodon.social
2022-11-15T14:52:40Z
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@Corfiot I take your point, but you didn't make your comment to a random person complaining about the Fedi. You made it on a thread/conversation specifically discussing why Mastodon might not work for a community such as Black Twitter, and you specifically ask why black people don't create their own platform. Context definitely matters here.Again, I ask: would you prefer for Mastodon (specifically) to not be inclusive of the people who think it needs some changes in order to be welcoming?
(DIR) Post #APdCfDsxc6blTbeFw8 by minimammoth@mastodon.social
2022-11-15T14:54:11Z
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@Corfiot Shouldn't the platforms and communities we build be for all their members? Including those who have recently joined? Should we not listen to criticism? Especially from groups who have been historically discriminated against?
(DIR) Post #APdCsnvCwWhv0PAwL2 by minimammoth@mastodon.social
2022-11-15T15:00:05Z
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@Corfiot Have you seen Chanimal's posts on this? Did you read the original thread you replied to (which includes examples of why it won't work for certain black communities)? Do you follow black people discussing these issues yourself? I don't want to tag people who weren't in this convo to begin with if I'm honest.Also, based on the part of the conversation you replied to (which was an answer to my questions about affordances), I didn't mention anything about the Fedi being exclusive.
(DIR) Post #APdKQnkUn6wDzjK64W by Bindestriche@social.anoxinon.de
2022-11-15T09:44:47Z
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@shengokai and what do you think about the argument that quote tweets are mostly used for dunks? Mastodon is not built for virality. Why is responding via the response feature not good enough?
(DIR) Post #APdKQoDv1iTRSz5avw by shengokai@zirk.us
2022-11-15T09:48:15Z
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@Bindestriche Part of this has to do with how "virality" functions differently within different communities. The reply feature doesn't actually enable call and response (to use the Black Twitter specific issue) because it lacks virality in some senses.To be honest, I'm still compiling a more robust answer to the question, but it comes down to how QTs and the response feature make conversations visible differently.
(DIR) Post #APdKQomIxrynBdB3Wy by shengokai@zirk.us
2022-11-15T09:50:15Z
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@Bindestriche As for QTs being primarily used for dunks? I don't buy it. I don't buy it at all.Dunking might be the primary activity of a very loud, very adversarial kind of user on the bird site, or the province of some nastier academics, but to say that the QT is used primarily for dunks is to flatten out all the nuanced ways that the QT feature is used by different communities.The QT as dunk assessment has always bothered me due to its narrow focus on a small subset of users.
(DIR) Post #APdKqnJz0HYKCJJgY4 by minimammoth@mastodon.social
2022-11-15T15:03:49Z
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@Corfiot OK, gotcha. So, without reposting or tagging people (because I don't think they'd appreciate it): 1. A network created by black people for black people. Black Twitter (the platform isn't created by them, but they certainly created the network and the community). Not to mention all of the activist groups formed to support black people in the US, eg against police violence (think Black Lives Matter). There are also loads of networks in science created by black people for black people, ->
(DIR) Post #APdKqouX5sNp7xQO9o by minimammoth@mastodon.social
2022-11-15T15:07:57Z
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@Corfiot including all the BlackInX groups. Admittedly, I don't know of any social media platform created by black people, but that's most likely my personal limitation. There's definitely instances here that were created by and for black people (Black Twitter has one for example).2. Just because someone doesn't complain of being excluded doesn't mean that a tool is built with the way they socialise in mind. The person who you are replying to, who is black, is specifically complaining that ->
(DIR) Post #APdKqrRDhJiaxujWNs by minimammoth@mastodon.social
2022-11-15T15:11:26Z
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@Corfiot the call and response way he (and other people) use to interact on Twitter don't exist here, and how that prevents them from using the platform in the way they're used to to build community. That is a specific complaint. You may not agree with it (I see reasons for and against having quote tweets) but that is specifically true: Mastodon does not have quote tweets, and black people have used quote tweets a lot to build community on Twitter.
(DIR) Post #APdKqtLyZmiCuEIMUK by minimammoth@mastodon.social
2022-11-15T15:15:02Z
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@Corfiot As someone who has spent a lot of time on Twitter, it's obvious to me the amount of influence that black people have had over how that platform was used, especially after 2014, but admittedly, I don't have a link I can point you to at hand. This is based on my own experience of the platform.3. You've asked about specific things in the Fedi that don't work. I am not able to answer because my experience of the Fedi as a whole is very small, and I'm also not a black person in it. ->
(DIR) Post #APdKqxptuT1eoCKJge by minimammoth@mastodon.social
2022-11-15T15:18:21Z
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@Corfiot but I do have a couple of ideas of the sort of things that can make Mastodon a hostile place to black people, which (as far as I can tell, but I may be wrong) are inherent to the network.We've already talked about quote tweets, so let's ignore that. Twitter has tools to block a person and their followers, across the entire network. This is extremely useful to tackle harassment. As far as I know, Mastodon doesn't have those tools. Additionally, the fact that you can create instances ->
(DIR) Post #APdKqzTdoCPNtjvZGi by minimammoth@mastodon.social
2022-11-15T15:21:42Z
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@Corfiot of many different types (which is genuinely fantastic!) does mean that some people (myself included) feel like they have to split into different personas depending on the instance they happen to be on. This is not always great. E.g. I'm an immigrant, and that colours a lot of what I do. In science advocacy, around language, and in my daily life. An instance that doesn't allow me to talk about science in the context of being an immigrant, severely limits the way I talk about science.
(DIR) Post #APdKr171jFVWyBMXIW by minimammoth@mastodon.social
2022-11-15T15:23:28Z
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@Corfiot This might seem minor (e.g.: I could just talk about science in one instance and about my experience of being an immigrant in another), but I am both, at the same time. I don't wanna have to split those aspects. And those are just two aspects, people have many, many more. Now, there are many bigger instances in Mastodon, so you could just be on one of those instances (I am in one). But that also comes with its drawbacks: the community is less specific, and you are likely to ->
(DIR) Post #APdKr2e221VDipoPNg by minimammoth@mastodon.social
2022-11-15T15:26:27Z
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@Corfiot encounter more bad actors (firstly, it's just a matter of size, bigger instances are more likely to have people who disagree with you in unpleasant ways, secondly, smaller instances are a bit harder to find, usually have a larger number of other servers blocked, and often have stricter rules on who gets in, meaning the community tends to be more tight knit and better 'policed', for lack of a better word). Anyways, I've been ranting for long enough. I still think that saying black ->
(DIR) Post #APdKr48YU1VqLn6Ib2 by minimammoth@mastodon.social
2022-11-15T15:27:02Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@Corfiot people are ungrateful for wanting Mastodon to fit them better is out of line, but thanks for listening.
(DIR) Post #APdMyiGZsheCkFcxGq by lukaslykus@mastodon.lol
2022-11-15T15:38:03Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@shengokai I honestly think that there is some overthinking going here. I tried to read and understand the issue at hand it seems to be centered around QT’s and also insulation. For the insulating part, the instances provide a safe space for whoever you are. No different than having a gathering place if you’re religious. You gather at a place of worship to commune and find solidarity with others. That is what an instance provides. There a lot of pluses I see in this model.
(DIR) Post #APdMykFEWflCsf0uS8 by lukaslykus@mastodon.lol
2022-11-15T15:38:06Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@shengokai Also, I’m not seeing the whiteness. I can’t follow the logic. The argument seems to be centered around QT’s. Am I correct here? You stated it as call and response. Boosting, the way I see it, does the same thing here. So, instead of having your input at the beginning, it is at the end. All that is required is a recondition of how things work.If you think that is an inadequate solution, maybe have the last post directly under the original post. Look what happens with
(DIR) Post #APdMymFf43I76ZEHOi by lukaslykus@mastodon.lol
2022-11-15T15:38:10Z
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@shengokai QT’s it gets spread around like wildfire and can be difficult and time consuming to track down. Just like with anything there are going to be good and bad. You said QT’s are agnostic, if that is indeed the case then the point becomes moot and it cancels itself out.The only thing I see changing is how the information is organized and laid out in a boost vs. a QT. It boils down to arguing about format. Either way attention is being drawn to the subject. Whether your response
(DIR) Post #APdMynwwkbVeN6UMVM by lukaslykus@mastodon.lol
2022-11-15T15:38:13Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@shengokai is at the beginning or at the end. Maybe you could help me out if I missed, misread or misinterpreted what you outlined in your argument?
(DIR) Post #APdNIhItAcgjYDEnOC by milkcircus@mastodon.art
2022-11-15T16:25:21Z
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@shengokai Don't have any evidence, just personal experience but the lack of QRTs is one thing I find much better about Mastodon. Beyond using them to insult people, I would see QRTs be used a lot to spread misinformation and even if evidence was presented, the virality of the QRT made it so it never came forward. Whenever my posts got QRTs, 99% of them were low effort comments that added nothing to conversation as well. I understand how they can help regarding community sharing though
(DIR) Post #APdOD45xcS0ySD4Jxw by minimammoth@mastodon.social
2022-11-15T16:55:27Z
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@Corfiot OK, that's it. Slurs for trans people are not it. I was clearly right in my first assessment.
(DIR) Post #APdfTMem4ecnsLi71s by spiritsplice@pieville.net
2022-11-15T20:23:44Z
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@Corfiot all I see is nigger faggot parroting judaism @shengokai
(DIR) Post #APdjmOyO5NbCNWDY9I by iamtakingiteasy@eientei.org
2022-11-15T21:12:00.757244Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@shengokai Nice report. Absolutely proprietary. @kleeneks
(DIR) Post #APekI102wnqoS31n4S by faggert@poa.st
2022-11-16T08:21:13.973173Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@shengokai N
(DIR) Post #APekI1QzKdOxnbdJ44 by Ariovistus@poa.st
2022-11-16T08:52:26.155322Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@shengokai @faggert @shengokai I
(DIR) Post #APgvFffOmPFFWMNIBc by faggert@poa.st
2022-11-17T09:15:19.990910Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@Ariovistus @shengokai G
(DIR) Post #APgvFgIkQ6ijUOmiWG by MangoRanch@poa.st
2022-11-17T10:04:41.173990Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@faggert @Ariovistus @shengokai G
(DIR) Post #APgx5dLsjO7vM1aTlw by ceo_of_monoeye_dating@bae.st
2022-11-17T10:25:17.388274Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@MangoRanch @Ariovistus @faggert @shengokai E
(DIR) Post #APgxJ38ACJVt4PZGts by KNIGHTS_OF_HYPERBOREA@poa.st
2022-11-17T10:27:42.555022Z
3 likes, 1 repeats
@ceo_of_monoeye_dating @MangoRanch @Ariovistus @faggert @shengokai R
(DIR) Post #APgxNb7tkCrPfFc2dc by lina@eientei.org
2022-11-17T10:28:30.950640Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@ceo_of_monoeye_dating @Ariovistus @MangoRanch @faggert @shengokai R
(DIR) Post #APhJCi0q01xupMWUOu by kleeneks@eientei.org
2022-11-15T11:52:35.226924Z
1 likes, 1 repeats
@shengokai As expected from a nigger, a fucking word document. Mastodong niggers really have to bring all that proprietary scat fetish here, huh?
(DIR) Post #APtusaYs5M5F0PcimG by trwnh@mastodon.social
2022-11-15T11:52:10Z
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@shengokai interesting points, but consider: are there alternative ways to build community? can people not be involved in a conversation in different ways? should new digital practices be established?as a marginalized queer poc that has been here for 6 years now, i do not miss quote tweets. they were used to harass me, they were used to avoid actually engaging, they were used to strip context. i'd much rather people reply than quote. i'd rather not be put on display for others to mock.
(DIR) Post #APxu7SPnKhvilIkApl by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2022-11-25T14:42:03Z
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@shengokai > By affordances, I mean in the STS sense which is parallel to the husserlian senseSTS?
(DIR) Post #APxuPVKrDJs3222Wzg by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2022-11-25T14:45:17Z
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@shengokai > absent some mechanism for "call and response,"What about using links to posts instead of quoting them? Too much friction? Could a button on each post that automatically inserted its URL into a new post serve the same purpose, when combined with having preview cards turned on in the receiving apps?
(DIR) Post #APxuzjOkPFW54V8Lse by sj_zero@social.fbxl.net
2022-11-25T14:51:53.301961Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
It's sort of a dumb criticism. The fediverse has the most marginalized groups on it. It has the groups that have been kicked off of all the big Tech sites. It has the people whose only opportunity to feel safe on the internet was to roll their own servers and build their own.Seems to me that your complaint is that the most privileged people in the world today can't come over and exercise their privilege. They can't get special treatment. They can't pull a big handle and have the people that they hate exiled.I've been seeing this criticism a lot. I think it's a valid one. It's a very good reason that all of those people who come to this open source distributed platform and aren't privileged should take that to heart, and they should return to Big Tech, where they can continue their privileged life as one of the special people. And when the marketing departments decide that they aren't special people anymore, history show repeat itself, and perhaps then when they are truly marginalized they can come back.
(DIR) Post #APxwEkJtMTr0ECaOkS by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2022-11-25T15:05:45Z
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@shengokai > absent some mechanism for "call and response,"What about using links to posts instead of quoting them? Too much friction? Could a button on each post that automatically inserted its URL into a new post serve the same purpose, when combined with having preview cards turned on in the receiving apps?... and queer folks, do you think that would have the same effect as recreating the QT you've had such a bad experience of?
(DIR) Post #APxxbWoRqZJqx1J15k by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2022-11-25T15:21:04Z
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I've seen a lot of the same whinging as you @sj_zero and I have pretty much the same attitude to it. I can't even claim to phrase it more diplomatically, although I aspire to ;)But with respect, you're well off the mark here. What @shengokai is talking about is what's missing from the UX of Mastodon, for some people who otherwise might like to join us here. Software freedom is about the co-creation of software and this feedback is valuable and important, even if we have reasons to disagree.
(DIR) Post #APxxlmRkZj3yKnZs0m by alexmdunne@mas.to
2022-11-16T04:35:33Z
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@shengokai This whole thread is a #masterclass. Gonna share manually (because QT's don't exist here 🙃). Been exploring here for 3 days only so far, but I'm actively trying to gauge how wide the range of commumities present might be. Thank you.
(DIR) Post #APxxln0qTF8U5dztiK by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2022-11-25T15:22:56Z
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@alexmdunne > Gonna share manually (because QT's don't exist here 🙃)I'm picking this is intended as ironic humour, but FWIW, you can share Jonathan's post by giving it Boost. This will send it out to anyone following your account and put it in your Local timeline, and the Federated timeline on their server.
(DIR) Post #APxyFj8pQcKAls0Tpo by frumble@chaos.social
2022-11-15T14:16:19Z
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@shengokai @jeffjarvis If I’m being honest, I don’t get the point without more precise examples of how this cultural practice works for the Black community towards more good than bad – but:There is more than Mastodon in the Fediverse. If QRT are so important to the Black community, it can just use Misskey, Friendica and other server software. They are all interoperable in the Fediverse, it won’t be another social network, just another server software. They are actually quite nice.
(DIR) Post #APxyFjfnS2hCQ7QoDo by jeffjarvis@mastodon.social
2022-11-15T14:21:52Z
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@frumble @shengokai Interesting on the other server software. Thanks. I have so much to learn here. As for call-and-reponse, you can start digging in to the history and cultural significance: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Call_and_response
(DIR) Post #APxyFk7RnEoVnsMtJw by frumble@chaos.social
2022-11-15T14:42:09Z
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@jeffjarvis Thanks.Friendica feels more like a sort of Facebook, but as if Facebook would care about UX and what’s in the best interest of their users rather than stakeholders, a bit mixed with Google+ vibes.Misskey feels like a crazy Japanese cat cafe.There is also Pleroma, what is a more lightweight server, which can also use the Mastodon UI. And others.
(DIR) Post #APxyFkTmSCg6v8oj8C by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2022-11-25T15:28:18Z
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No offence to you @frumble, but I do find it fascinating (and sometimes frustrating) the way these sorts of ideas start out as aspirational descriptions or goal statements on project homepage, then get passed around and repeated, and sometimes jumbled together, until they become a sort of fediverse folklore.(1/?)@jeffjarvis
(DIR) Post #APxyW3MzzEyK8sQ5QG by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2022-11-25T15:31:18Z
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> Friendica feels more like a sort of FacebookI guess I can't argue with how these two platforms feel to you. But if you compare them feature-by-feature, they have very little in common. The only things that make Friendica more like FB than Mastodon is that it has groups and that there's no character limit by default (Mastodon's can be changed or removed by admins). I think comparing Friendica to FB sets people up to be disappointed by Friendica, which is a shame.(2/?)@frumble @jeffjarvis
(DIR) Post #APxyq0I98p5uO2fB68 by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2022-11-25T15:34:54Z
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> mixed with Google+ vibesThe main thing I remember distinguishing G+ from other social network platforms was the concept of 'circles'. The first place I saw this was Diaspora, which was also conceived of by its founders as a decentralized FB killer, but ended up become something quite different.> Misskey feels like a crazy Japanese cat cafe.I've never used Misskey, so you're in a better position to know than me. What makes it feel that way?(3/?)@frumble @jeffjarvis
(DIR) Post #APxzCXscwPLevjTXPc by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2022-11-25T15:38:57Z
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> There is also Pleroma, what is a more lightweight server,I was repeating this bit of folklore right up until the other day, when I saw this blog piece announcing a recent Pleroma fork:"Pleroma started out trying to be a small and efficient microblogging platform that could be hosted just about anywhere, but... it has slowly grown into something that isn't any significantly lighter than misskey or even mastodon."https://coffee-and-dreams.uk/development/2022/06/24/akkoma.html(4/?)@frumble @jeffjarvis
(DIR) Post #APxzJGYVke21E6GrS4 by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2022-11-25T15:40:11Z
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>Pleroma... can also use the Mastodon UI. This is true. As a rule of thumb, any app that works with Mastodon will work with Pleroma, including the default web app that comes with a Mastodon server.(5/5)@frumble @jeffjarvis
(DIR) Post #APxzfTxyZTafBpm8oq by sj_zero@social.fbxl.net
2022-11-25T15:44:15.351268Z
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I'm certainly open to find out I'm overreacting and would happily accept it if I'm proven wrong.It just seems to me that it's like aristocrats leaving the castle and complaining that the masses in the countryside are out there living like barbarians -- "They don't even have a single brigade of knights guarding their homes! Can you imagine!"
(DIR) Post #APy0m9tbgu7mvKTmAS by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2022-11-25T15:56:36Z
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@sj_zero Did you read the whole thread and have a think about it before replying?
(DIR) Post #APy0q2NLaqWAl4EuqO by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2022-11-25T15:57:19Z
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@sj_zero No offence, but did you read the whole thread?
(DIR) Post #APy0u2bQgt8icYjfE0 by sj_zero@social.fbxl.net
2022-11-25T15:58:05.626594Z
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No. Just the parents.
(DIR) Post #APy1gX9OPyQ5GNkEV6 by sj_zero@social.fbxl.net
2022-11-25T16:06:51.411150Z
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Thinking about it, it's possible I've been talking to what I thought the post was about rather than what it actually was about, and that was unfairly tilted by the barrage of "The fediverse will never be a good platform because it isn't enough like big tech" posts and I got annoyed, combined with posting too early before my coffee kicked in.Felt good to write as a "take that!" to the people who are doing that, but it's possible I misread things.
(DIR) Post #APy3OyiJOqMVRdpnbE by midway@soapbox.midwaytrades.com
2022-11-25T16:25:04.311581Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@strypey @shengokai @sj_zero There is a fundamentally different culture here that you will need to understand and accept or you won’t make it here. Pseudo-intellectual critiques will get you nowhere. This is a world of builders. There is a ton of room for anyone to have a community but no one is going to do your work for you. This is a world built by open source coders (many but not all work for free or by donations), not HR, PR, comms teams”. If you are really committed to build any kind of community here and you feel you need features and tools to do it, you need to build it yourself or find someone willing to build it for you (paid or not). But you won’t get anywhere by publishing social thesis or critiques. I sincerely wish you the best in building what you want here. But you shouldn’t expect everyone to bow to magic buzzwords and do your bidding. If you want it, take the time to understand how the tech actually works, see what’s feasible and build it. The source code of many projects is there not only for you to see but also to fork, modify, and release. Then you have the basis to build any kind of community you want.
(DIR) Post #APyGVnGne1BLNrXunQ by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2022-11-25T18:52:55Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@midway "Pseudo-intellectual" is unkind and not fair comment. We have our jargon (features, applications, UX) and social scientists have theirs. I agree though, that speaking to us in their jargon, is not going to get them much further than speaking to them in ours gets us ;)Otherwise, pretty much everything said here is fair comment. With the caveat that the social layer (Layer 8 missing from the OSI model of networking) also needs building.@sj_zero @shengokai
(DIR) Post #APyJB4mJeZypSy6H3o by midway@soapbox.midwaytrades.com
2022-11-25T19:19:45.566204Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
was a bit harsh there, but the intent was a wake up call. Throwing out those terms which I get as one who took way too many philosophy courses for a CS major isn't going to mean anything here. The goal was to contrast this world from others. Everyone earns their place here and trying to academically critique it may earn you cache in academia, get you published, grants, etc. (which is all fine and good, more power to you there), but it won't get you where you want to be here. If the goal is to actually build a community, then get to building. For example, if you really want quote posting, you will not get it by using Mastodon. The dev has already laid out the case for why he is not going to do it and you aren't going to change his mind. That being said, Mastodon isn't the be all and end all of the larger Fediverse. There are other projects that do similar things to Mastodon but have these features and, best of all, you can still talk to people on Mastodon while your instance is running something else. My instance doesn't run Mastodon, but here I am talking to people who are using it. It's a beautiful thing. So seek another project that better suits your needs, use it, and you don't have to give up the greater Fediverse. And, ultimately, if you can't find what you need, you can literally build it yourself, put it out there and, if people like it, you could become a major contributor to the Fediverse.This is what I mean by learning this world and adapting to it so that it works for you. Anyone has the power to do that here if you have the will to realize it. You can't do that on big tech which is why pressure tactics can work over there. But that's not where you are now. You can like that or not, that's up to you. But you cannot expect this world to bend to your needs, especially when this world has given you the ability to build something to suit your needs.
(DIR) Post #APzYGfXu4aWTPvRZho by jofijaan@chaos.social
2022-11-26T07:44:56Z
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@midway @strypey @sj_zero@social.fbxl.net @shengokai@zirk.usI Sorry to inform you that your comment is the epiphany of white arrogance. It's the perfect example why institutions like Wikipedia are unable to open up themselves to the critique of minorities. Coz you are immunizing yourselves with these "this is a world of builders" arguments against any criticism by saying basically If you can't code it it can't be a severe problem. It's repelling.
(DIR) Post #APzYGgEnV6plYxVpZ2 by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2022-11-26T09:46:34Z
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@jofijaan There are two two equally untenable positions here. To be clear, I'm summarizing the over discourse, not putting words in any particular person's mouth. But this is what I suspect each side is *hearing* from the other.compared to tohers1) Build it yourselves, regardless of the historical reasons why your capacity to do that is limited2) Build it for us, the way we want it, or we will shout at you and call you names.We need to get beyond this dichotomy, together.(1/?)@midway
(DIR) Post #APzYJe0IGMYtVG8qVE by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2022-11-26T09:47:09Z
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@jofijaan There are two two equally untenable positions here. To be clear, I'm summarizing the overall discourse, not putting words in any particular person's mouth. But this is what I suspect each side is *hearing* from the other.1) Build it yourselves, regardless of the historical reasons why your capacity to do that is limited2) Build it for us, the way we want it, or we will shout at you and call you names.We need to get beyond this dichotomy, together.(1/?)@midway
(DIR) Post #APzZEgcrBeRE8pNZWy by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2022-11-26T09:57:27Z
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How might we escape the chains of this dichotomy?It might help to start with a mutual recognition that fediverse isn't just a joke name, it can be an aspiration; to use federated technology to celebrate and embrace human diversity in all its forms. A federated universe, of federated diversity. Then, a mutual recognition that while the fediverse is a multi-cultural society, shaped by many waves of immigrants from marginalized groups, there's always room for more.(2/?)@jofijaan @midway
(DIR) Post #APza3taqjWMV81rIhc by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2022-11-26T10:06:43Z
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So what does all this mean in pratice?In the DataFarms, diversity is stock photos of middle class millennials of different ethnic backgrounds, plastered over a monolith of technology that works one way for everyone. One company controls the technology, and through it, the people using it.In the fediverse, diversity is groups of people, building different experiences of a social web. Different apps for different people's needs. We can all co-create the technology.(3/?)@jofijaan @midway
(DIR) Post #APzasGVVoWiyfqNdSq by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2022-11-26T10:15:49Z
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Black Twitter has decolonized their corner of a DataFarm and made it work for them.There's a lot of ways something similar can be done here, but it won't work quite the same way. Instead of pushing against a monolith, that is, at best, indifferent to their needs, it will involve pulling things off the shelves of a fediverse toolshed. Whose toolsmiths want to know if their tools can work better for you, without degrading their use for anyone else. (4/4)@jofijaan @midway
(DIR) Post #APzauzoqJhbVmjixYe by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2022-11-26T10:15:59Z
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Black Twitter has decolonized their corner of a DataFarm and made it work for them.There's a lot of ways something similar can be done here, but it won't work quite the same way. Instead of pushing against a monolith, that is, at best, indifferent to their needs, it will involve pulling things off the shelves of a fediverse toolshed. Whose toolsmiths want to know if their tools can work better for you, without degrading their use for anyone else. (4/?)@jofijaan @midway
(DIR) Post #APzbFINP1wjL8DZK52 by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2022-11-26T10:19:58Z
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If there are tools Black Twitter needs that are missing entirely from the shed, we need to know what those tools do, how you want them to look, how you want them to work. The more specific you can be, the easier the needs will be to understand.But the toolsmiths need you to understand that they are volunteers, not employees, with limited time and energy for this work. It will take time. If you have your own toolsmiths, or aspiring toolsmiths, we want to meet them!(5/?)@jofijaan @midway
(DIR) Post #APzcbku3kVzZvl7KvA by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2022-11-26T10:35:14Z
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Perhaps now, having explored a vision of federated diversity together, we can listen to understand each other, and transform those two untenable starting points into fuel for our forges?1) You know what you need, how can we help you build it under your control, the way you want it to be?2) What we see so far is not what we need, or what we want. We need to know that we can get help to get our needs met here, while keeping control over our culture and our destiny.(6/6)@jofijaan @midway
(DIR) Post #APzdyppVhLfLpCYggS by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2022-11-26T10:50:37Z
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If that wasn't complete nonsense, and anyone wants to find it again later, I just chucked it up on my blog here:https://strypey.dreamwidth.org/3689.html@jofijaan @midway
(DIR) Post #AQ25pQws1Tql5EE6Do by midway@soapbox.midwaytrades.com
2022-11-26T16:20:04.730242Z
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@strypey @jofijaan That was far from nonsense. If the goal of the initial posts is to find builders to help build something that’s fine. What is not fine is demanding changes to accommodate anyone. If it was the former that was not clear to me and some others in this thread. That happens and is not a big deal. I get why making demands for changes on a closed tech is pretty much the only way to get changes since power is centralized. But that is flipped on its head entirely here. And I encourage anyone to build what they want here. If the goal of a critique is to find or fund people to build something here, that’s a great thing. Make that clear and go for it. If it isn’t clear then many will assume it is using the big tech tactics that don’t make sense here.
(DIR) Post #AQ25pRVxuzvGq4e7vM by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2022-11-27T15:12:01Z
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@midway> That was far from nonsense. That's a relief. I was writing it after more than 24 hours without sleep, in a burst of inspiration, and I was worried it would look like manic ravings when I read it again after some sleep ;)
(DIR) Post #AQ2Gimtn72zqd6osiG by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2022-11-27T17:14:08Z
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@shengokai I wrote a series of posts last night, that was an attempt to synthesize the two positions on quote-posts into a way forward that could be inclusive of everyone's needs here. Both on the specific question of quote-posts, and in general. Would be very interested in your thoughts.The post series starts with the one above, or if threading is broken (this happens occasionally for a variety of reasons):https://mastodon.nzoss.nz/@strypey/109409470363501047
(DIR) Post #AQ71nzRDOQ8DReH9Oq by anusrape@poa.st
2022-11-29T22:50:58.781833Z
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@sarvo @shengokai You are made for BBC
(DIR) Post #AQ71nzwPWR5L0Os41Y by sarvo@novoa.nagoya
2022-11-30T00:20:24.638Z
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@anusrape@poa.st @shengokai@zirk.us rope yourself by the rectum