Post APg2QlhZBfiDwcfRdA by vinzv@floss.social
(DIR) More posts by vinzv@floss.social
(DIR) Post #APZkcXUYseQPE2Hv8K by evan@prodromou.pub
2022-11-13T22:35:16Z
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How important is the federated social network in the fight against climate change?
(DIR) Post #APaA0rywqdhGZvCQsq by lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me
2022-11-14T03:43:52.646503Z
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@evan I have no idea (essentially because I'm not sure how bad the centralised ones are doing).
(DIR) Post #APdDN8kc46tEIFgXTM by cyberspook@soc.redeyes.site
2022-11-15T15:08:51.688939Z
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I don't even know.
(DIR) Post #APfxvXYRKvvNH3Fhtg by frumble@chaos.social
2022-11-16T22:59:22Z
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@evan You are missing key features of the fediverse:• No shadowbanning of climate activists – we have seen this multiple times on Twitter• No state can suspend accounts
(DIR) Post #APfybYOabEtG2rg7hw by lucifargundam@qoto.org
2022-11-16T23:07:30Z
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@frumble @evan I'm going to revoke your Fediverse permissions for exposing the top secret truth that outsiders aren't supposed to know about.You can mail me a blank check at the attached P.O. box address below.
(DIR) Post #APfyhDVTB3x4zqb4fA by evan@prodromou.pub
2022-11-16T22:43:18Z
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So, this is very interesting to me. I hadn't considered them intertwined, but in "The Ministry for the Future" Kim Stanley Robinson makes the federated social network a crucial part of mitigation.
(DIR) Post #APfyhE8Sq58ywmqDRY by evan@prodromou.pub
2022-11-16T22:46:47Z
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Here's why I think the fediverse is important for the climate emergency.First, because disinformation thrives on big social networks. The fediverse seems more responsive to bad ideas spreading.Second, because federation is more friendly to cross-border collaboration. Nation-states are very suspicious of media headquartered in a superpower like the US or China, but will probably be more relaxed about federated systems.
(DIR) Post #APfyhEYLHrqOF2wsmO by evan@prodromou.pub
2022-11-16T22:49:00Z
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Third, adaptation is going to require some local resiliency. Having networks that are local to a region and stay up through disasters is going to be a big help.
(DIR) Post #APfyhF8V7Qle3Brl8i by evan@prodromou.pub
2022-11-16T22:50:44Z
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Anyway, my response would be "somewhat important". The federated social network isn't as important as, say, eliminating coal-generated electricity or finding a better recipe for concrete. But it's probably a net positive for climate change.
(DIR) Post #APfyhFbDOfjhUFIgtc by evan@prodromou.pub
2022-11-16T23:05:13Z
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And fair warning: the two biggest things I've worked on in my career have been the federated social network and climate change, so I'm likely to overstate the connections.
(DIR) Post #APfyhFnydDwc7pGsmu by evan@prodromou.pub
2022-11-16T23:01:06Z
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His naivete about the difficulty of launching federated social networks made me throw my Kindle across the room when I read it the first time.
(DIR) Post #APfyhGAfGs5nGBt09Q by volume@fr13nd5.com
2022-11-16T23:08:32.446478Z
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@evan Temporal ripples, it’s like big wave surfing but gravity comes crashing in when the temporal linchpin is pulled but you turn quantum. Wrong place, wrong time, and the funny thing is, you pulled the linchpin elsewhen.💌
(DIR) Post #APg2QlhZBfiDwcfRdA by vinzv@floss.social
2022-11-16T23:16:21Z
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@evan What's your take on resources used to power the federated infrastructure? Isn't having lots of nodes more problematic than say two or three data centers around the globe?
(DIR) Post #APg2Qm7RdSPdEsm6y0 by evan@prodromou.pub
2022-11-16T23:18:23Z
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@vinzv I don't know. My intuition is that it's probably not a big difference either way.
(DIR) Post #APg2QmWy6YpSW2iUka by evan@prodromou.pub
2022-11-16T23:19:24Z
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@vinzv I also think that a global climate emergency requires global real-time coordination, so we can't really afford not to use these tools right now.
(DIR) Post #APg2Qn9xla1MSyxdWy by vinzv@floss.social
2022-11-16T23:24:45Z
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@evan My initial thought was that single nodes would have smaller footprints. But that would only work with nodes not running Mastodon or Friendica, I guess.One interesting thing in that regard is SSB (Secure Scuttlebutt) as works off grid and does not need constantly running/connected nodes. But it comes with a price tag regarding convenience, unfortunately. But still!
(DIR) Post #APg2QniLhjWiBd3680 by evan@prodromou.pub
2022-11-16T23:49:22Z
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@vinzv you don't need continuous connectivity for AP!
(DIR) Post #APg2Qo6SG6oDOOKLhY by volume@fr13nd5.com
2022-11-16T23:50:22.735034Z
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@evan @vinzv Just a leash to keep man in control.
(DIR) Post #APjdRjaGpFtfRcSTRY by jmangt@hachyderm.io
2022-11-15T17:00:05Z
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@evan We will "never" reach the masses with a federated model. BUT... the amount of noise produced by Climate Change Deniers and their bots will be drastically reduced as each instance can deal with them and nullify the spread of their misconceptions.
(DIR) Post #APjdRjznIMJUimOrE8 by evan@prodromou.pub
2022-11-15T20:11:13Z
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@jmangt I disagree with your premise.
(DIR) Post #APjdRkiScI2gxJIWqe by chillicampari@layer8.space
2022-11-15T20:14:42Z
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@evan I think there is something to the premise with things at this current state, but wondering where/what the disagreement point is@jmangt
(DIR) Post #APjdRl8L44k6FZPCBU by evan@prodromou.pub
2022-11-15T20:20:47Z
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@chillicampari @jmangt "We will "never" reach the masses with a federated model."There are other communications media that are federated, such as email and telephones.I don't think there's a systemic impediment that makes it impossible for the federated social network to reach the masses.It just happens to be hard af.
(DIR) Post #APjdRlh4yuX1zJewKm by chillicampari@layer8.space
2022-11-15T20:38:15Z
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@evan Okay (nodding). Yes, agreed on that, but we are looking at more than only the system(s) end of information travel, we also have to recognize many people can and will drop off after something like... 2 to 3 points of friction (my best guess) and then giving up. Which is probably fixable but yes, hard af @jmangt
(DIR) Post #APjdRm5tUeNhEHGl0q by jmangt@hachyderm.io
2022-11-15T20:53:40Z
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@chillicampari @evan Yes that is what I meant. As long as there is not a "single" place to gather, the masses won't join because "there is not a single place to gather". You can see this already with the most common barrier to join #mastodon , picking the server. That decision point introduces a huge friction point for the masses.
(DIR) Post #APjdRmV3z4VwUL2rFA by lxo@gnusocial.net
2022-11-16T02:14:24Z
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let's take banking. it's been federated forever. you need an account before you can transact. but you have to first pick a bank to set up an account, a decision point that introduces such huge friction that banking will never succeed. do I get your argument right?
(DIR) Post #APjdRn1g1obO7UIu4u by jmangt@hachyderm.io
2022-11-16T05:08:19Z
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@lxo :) so heard me out. Banks are fronts that simplify the federated network that manage money. They exists so you don't have to think about the network. And they are motivated to exist because they make a profit for providing you that service. For our use case there are no "centralized" or "simplified" gateways to the network ( or they are not well known yet).
(DIR) Post #APjdRnWWB9Gvf8jX9M by lxo@gnusocial.net
2022-11-16T14:43:09Z
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how's that different from federated servers? you have to choose a bank upfront, as much as a server. after that, both mediate and simplify your interactions with the network.banks have a profit motive indeed, which creates some biases in the choosing processes, but your distinction seems to rely a lot more on preexisting familiarity with the system than on any material differences
(DIR) Post #APjdRnyWV1fp3zptnk by jmangt@hachyderm.io
2022-11-16T14:48:59Z
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@lxo that is precisely my point :) The banks have already solved the federation problem for you. You then have to pick the one you like the best. #mastodon still has no "banks". We are still interacting with very "raw" services. Another way to see it is on how the web got started. The protocols existed and the nodes could talk to each other. But it wasn't until AOL "packaged" it that we started seeing massive adoption of the network.
(DIR) Post #APjdRonvPun3dPswvA by lxo@gnusocial.net
2022-11-16T19:53:26Z
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how is choosing a bank and a branch thereof for your banking address any different from choosing a home instance for your social media address? in order to wire money to someone else, you have to know their address; this is hardly different. I don't see what distinction you're trying to make. it comes across to me as "I'm used to this, so this is easy, while I'm new to that, so that's unfamiliar and therefore it seems different and complicated and scary" even though it's the really sametake telephony. you also have to pick a phone service provider, and then find out others' addresses (area code and phone number) before you can call them. and, again, the difference between that and fediverse federation is that you've long been so familiar with the telephone federation that you don't even perceive it as such. ditto email. ditto XMPP. ditto so many political structures. the centralized walled garden make things simpler for exploitation (no way to escape), not for users.
(DIR) Post #APjdRpIlZFSbB4JZzc by jmangt@hachyderm.io
2022-11-17T13:31:26Z
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@lxo Because the idea of a bank or phone company (for the masses) is no longer scary. It is an understood entity. There is nothing to figure out, and there are "no consequences" to pay if you choose one or the other. You have to remember that even the word "server" is scary. If, for example, there was a "friendly" layer on top of the network that called them "communities," that would reduce the friction of adoption.
(DIR) Post #APjdRpgW8wSWMjQY0u by lxo@gnusocial.net
2022-11-18T04:04:12Z
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you seem to have changed your stance from "federation can never succeed" to "lack of awareness hampers adoption". I'm glad we agree now.
(DIR) Post #APjdRq9wNXzjpzC2sK by jmangt@hachyderm.io
2022-11-18T04:10:14Z
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@lxo oh, my stand is not that the federation can't succeed but that the access to the "naked" network won't reach critical mass. Not without a "boutique" or "central" way to connect to the network.
(DIR) Post #APjdRqbwhQOdEqIPWi by lxo@gnusocial.net
2022-11-18T07:23:34Z
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that was quite a lot to unpack from the quotes around never in the head (?) of the threadhttps://hachyderm.io/@jmangt/109348887292670081and still I feel you're making a distinction that doesn't hold. banking, telephone, email are federated structures got wide popular acceptance without hiding the underlying network, and requiring service users to explicitly make a choice of service suppliers to join the network, without centralized or seemingly-centralized service, or even without requiring boutique ways to join.retail bank branches are by no means boutiques. phone shops seem designed to repel customers. email had a wide reach before google, microsoft and yahoo turned an efficient federated system into a recentralized web-based abomination.so that's 3 examples that counter this theory. do you have any single example to support it?
(DIR) Post #APjdRrC6WzJt2zDHt2 by jmangt@hachyderm.io
2022-11-18T14:28:17Z
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@lxo I think you are looking at this from the point of view of whether a federated model can succeed. The question you should be asking yourself is: What made those federated networks succeed?
(DIR) Post #APjdRrhedgYacpyU40 by lxo@gnusocial.net
2022-11-18T17:01:21Z
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when it comes to the fediverse, ISTM the biggest challenge to newcomers is to choose an instance, that supposedly ties them to a certain interest group. the tying is imaginary (misleading docs?), and mostly unrelated with federation (picture a centralized service that requires naming a primary interest). it's a bit like choosing a place to live, that is going to affect your life in some ways, and even which communities you could viably participate in, but that is not definitive nor quite as determinant or exclusive as often described: you could choose to move elsewhere later. but it does have a significant impact if you pick a place that turns out to be very hostile to you. and somehow, despite all the difficulties and risks involved, people still go and seek places to live and buy or rent houses or condos or rooms or whatever.
(DIR) Post #APjdRs9Iysfu0auZA8 by cyberspook@soc.redeyes.site
2022-11-18T17:29:13.026398Z
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@lxoThe only major problem is that a third-party server is always a single point of failure, no matter how nicely it may present itself. If some authority requests some sensitive data from the server owner you are essentially defenseless unless the server owner is that principled to resist gag orders. Affinity groups on the other hand do not require you to even know each other. In decentralized self-hosted networks affinity groups are a circle of friends you hang out with. You do not need to trust each other, you give them only the data you want to give them, nothing more. Unlike with federated servers.@jmangt
(DIR) Post #APkiEZE4idnwU4ZrBQ by lxo@gnusocial.net
2022-11-19T02:28:10Z
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yeah, that's a fundamental problem of services delivered through servers, that federation doesn't even attempt to address. as mentioned in the other thread, p2p/f2f networks do, and I'd love us to move to that architecture instead of retaining this undesirable aspect of surveillance capitalism, namely dependency on exclusive servers. there seem to be some misconceptions about how difficult that would be for users, but we're seeing that choosing a server is *the* main perceived obstacle to joining a federated network, so I'm more and more convinced that jumping straight to p2p might have eased the adoption path.