Post APOuLDPt0cHdK0S1L6 by ubergeek@pleroma.tilde.zone
(DIR) More posts by ubergeek@pleroma.tilde.zone
(DIR) Post #APOuL0BwBAOwIypCIC by sam@masto.dotsod.com
2022-11-08T12:24:41Z
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@ubergeek Heyo! I would like to make a separate thread with you on a topic that went amiss in the original discussion. Let me restate the topic : Why Anarchists are okay with violence?
(DIR) Post #APOuL0h8JBM3rjQ6uu by ubergeek@pleroma.tilde.zone
2022-11-08T12:28:15.181316Z
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@sam to your question, here, though: simple.Violence is a tool, and all tools can be useful at times. The tool has no moral measurement, but the motivation does.
(DIR) Post #APOuL36jKz1DLhPa5o by sam@masto.dotsod.com
2022-11-08T12:47:08Z
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@ubergeek > The tool has no moral measurement, but the motivation does.My moral obligation suggests that anarchists are manbabies and a younger version of tankies and shouldnt be taken seriously. The reason i guessed you were young and impressionable is not because of the high energy indicative of youth but mostly because of naivety as a result of lack of experience that your arguments were derived from.
(DIR) Post #APOuL3ZRcDzGmkqVqi by sam@masto.dotsod.com
2022-11-08T12:47:09Z
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@ubergeek If performance of violence doesnt have any moral obligation because it is a tool then arachists and tankies should be forcefully extradited to an island - i suggest the epstein island - where can they can be recorded killing each other showcasing their tools of violence and whoever wins at the end should be given the power to rule the island. capeesh?
(DIR) Post #APOuL463ey4iPu6YgS by sam@masto.dotsod.com
2022-11-08T14:02:14Z
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@ubergeek can you please reply to this one? 👆
(DIR) Post #APOuL4QyPCnzSltGHg by ubergeek@pleroma.tilde.zone
2022-11-08T14:04:17.120516Z
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@sam Which one? I laid out a perfect pre-world war example of when violence is a tool, that is used for positive moral reasons.Or, should the Deacons for Defense relied only on non-violent resistance, rather than violently opposing the Klan?
(DIR) Post #APOuL4tKhlUSsj9uUK by sam@masto.dotsod.com
2022-11-08T14:58:53Z
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@ubergeek >which one? this toot 👇 right here:- "If performance of violence doesnt have any moral obligation because it is a tool then arachists and tankies should be forcefully extradited to an island - i suggest the epstein island - where can they can be recorded killing each other showcasing their tools of violence and whoever wins at the end should be given the power to rule the island. capeesh?"
(DIR) Post #APOuL5GNK5vE2BwJP6 by ubergeek@pleroma.tilde.zone
2022-11-08T15:00:13.756021Z
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@sam I did reply to that, as I said it's an unserious question, and has little to do with the fact that violence is a tool, that can be used for both amoral and moral reasons. Now, please reply to the serious replies I gave below (Or above, depending on how you see the thread).
(DIR) Post #APOuL5HRG8ly5URA3s by sam@masto.dotsod.com
2022-11-08T12:59:35Z
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@ubergeek this is my argument.
(DIR) Post #APOuL5gFlscdKS2yjw by sam@masto.dotsod.com
2022-11-08T15:37:42Z
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@ubergeek I find it rather insulting that you think it isnt serious. My morality suggests that violence tolerant people such as you should be given the tools of violence and be allowed to come to an agreement through the language of bloodshed among other violent groups. How is that not serious? My morality on violence is very Buddhist : people who live by the sword die by the sword, why cant you be allowed to live in a violence tolerant world? Am I making myself clear?
(DIR) Post #APOuL5zOchw0Hp0GZs by ubergeek@pleroma.tilde.zone
2022-11-08T15:43:51.205080Z
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@sam So, answer the question I posed:Should the Deacons for Defense NOT have used violence to repel the Klan from their community, or defend the Freedom Rides?Should the BPP have NOT used the threat of violence, to protect their community from police violence?If you refuse to accept violence as a tool, you are not a pacifist. You are just not a threat.
(DIR) Post #APOuL6IXTXFNFBxYPo by sam@masto.dotsod.com
2022-11-08T15:52:42Z
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@ubergeek Your conclusion for violence as a tool is derived from the most volatile period in human history. To accomodate your violent tolerance one must be thrown back to the same 20th century premise where might is right. Your arguments are in line with Russian invasion of Ukraine, as Russia considers US and the west in general to be violent oppressors and every ukrainian a nazi.
(DIR) Post #APOuL6fa5rg8OejxKa by ubergeek@pleroma.tilde.zone
2022-11-08T15:56:56.335075Z
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@sam Ok, so should the people of #Ukraine just choose non-violence against the #Russian invasion?This is happening, today, right now.Should the trans people in Texas choose non-violence, and allow the Proud Boys to threaten them with violence, and to use violence to oppress them?Again, this is something happening today, right now.
(DIR) Post #APOuL7Bq9vU00hpic4 by sam@masto.dotsod.com
2022-11-08T16:07:20Z
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@ubergeek You do realise that russia is the aggressor here and is using YOUR VERY LOGIC to invade Ukraine, russia (or rather the russian oligarchy) thinks about themself as the victims here and is acting out in violence against the "liberal" oppression of the west. Everything russia is doing is within the confines of your logic.
(DIR) Post #APOuL7aeffKfFfRXI8 by sam@masto.dotsod.com
2022-11-08T16:07:21Z
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@ubergeek If you think violence against trans people is at peak right now you havent looked at the historical trends. trans people are getting acceptance they deserve without violent people like you.
(DIR) Post #APOuL7vvOaLWJdOWRc by sam@masto.dotsod.com
2022-11-08T15:52:43Z
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@ubergeek I derived from the same volatility and suggested violence tolerant people such as you should be free to choose violence in a safe environment and allow the rest of us to make policies like thinking people. capeesh?
(DIR) Post #APOuL80X7S24XvYCcy by ubergeek@pleroma.tilde.zone
2022-11-08T16:09:49.304787Z
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@sam At its peak? Hardly.And you know why?Because we leftists, are backing up our comrades, with the threat of violence.https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/dallas-drag-brunch-texas-protest-b2155624.html
(DIR) Post #APOuL8JfyHLRVIVUSu by sam@masto.dotsod.com
2022-11-08T16:13:38Z
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@ubergeek yeah and so far you are only seeing the right wing resurgence here. You can have your violent mad max world there bud. You are not winning any public support.
(DIR) Post #APOuL8i8VKuWj9x1ai by ubergeek@pleroma.tilde.zone
2022-11-08T16:15:14.029333Z
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@sam Only seeing it where? In the US?Did you miss Italy electing a literal fascist? Or the fascist gaining power in Russia? Belarus?
(DIR) Post #APOuL9AUntb097DfnM by sam@masto.dotsod.com
2022-11-08T16:19:16Z
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@ubergeek Yeah i meant it as the west in general considering we were comparing against russia.
(DIR) Post #APOuL9VlWobrD5Aewq by ubergeek@pleroma.tilde.zone
2022-11-08T16:22:01.498615Z
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@sam Well, "the west" in general is just as imperialist as Russia and China are...And yes, violence is often needed to repel Western Imperialism.
(DIR) Post #APOuL9uE3sAwQwcC4e by sam@masto.dotsod.com
2022-11-08T16:25:05Z
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@ubergeek THERE YOU HAVE IT GUYS!!! A FUCKING TANKIE IN DISGUISE OF AN ANARCHIST! FUCKING LYING CUNTS! GET OUT OF MY INSTANCE YOU MAGGOT RUSSIA SUPPORTING PIECE OF SHIT!
(DIR) Post #APOuLALsP4IFohYHAm by ubergeek@pleroma.tilde.zone
2022-11-08T16:30:14.286958Z
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@sam Yes, because tankies are well known for being opposed to all states, and are also well known for calling out Russia and China as imperialist states... lol.I thought I'd never use this word, but holy fuck you are either seriously undereducated on what political ideologies are, or you are wholly unserious.
(DIR) Post #APOuLAkKw7rL2YzoIa by sam@masto.dotsod.com
2022-11-08T16:39:38Z
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@ubergeek it was more like an insult rather than a categorisation, granted i am not as well versed with the violent left (and i wont bother too), but any left claiming individual downplaying russian or chinese imperliasm against american imperliasm belong to the same group of illiterates.
(DIR) Post #APOuLBCLG0GERQ6Awy by ubergeek@pleroma.tilde.zone
2022-11-08T16:42:21.297107Z
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@sam Imperialism is imperialism. How many coups do you think the US has done in other countries, in order to secure cheap oil?Shit, did you forget when we went against the UN, invaded Iraq, just for cheap oil? And in doing so, we deposed a dictator that the US installed for... Cheap oil?Hell, the US and Russia are engaged in a proxy war in Syria right now, with the people of Rojava caught in the middle.Does any of that justify Russian imperialism and genocide in Ukraine? No!But your position is that violence in community and individual defence is amoral is suspect, and the thing I *thought* we were discussing here.
(DIR) Post #APOuLBbrj6g3ia2YjY by sam@masto.dotsod.com
2022-11-08T16:49:37Z
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@ubergeek > Does any of that justify Russian imperialism and genocide in Ukraine? No!Took you long enough to say it. And about US invading other countries, two wrongs dont make it right. Granted the countries US invaded werent exactly the beacons of human rights, they were still in the wrong to do it.Also you really think pepper spraying someone is violence?
(DIR) Post #APOuLBzyHTxYvLJoJ6 by ubergeek@pleroma.tilde.zone
2022-11-08T16:53:34.646101Z
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@sam I don't think I ever stated, nor implied supporting Russian imperialism...Who is talking about "two wrongs" here? We are discussing the use of violence, or the threat of the use of violence being a moral choice or not, here.That said, of course, the US hardly has the moral high ground, in determining who is violating human rights. Shit, how many people in the US now lack basic human rights? We have the largest prison population in the world, while only having ~4% of the world's population. 1/2 of women in the US lack access to basic reproductive health care (Which is a universal human right, per the UN).Which, of course, boils down to the motive for the use of violence, or the threat of the use of violence.And yes, pepper spraying someone is a form of violence. Non-lethal, generally, but yes, violence. Just like punching a nazi is a form a non-lethal (Usually) violence.
(DIR) Post #APOuLCNirAxU70QmKO by sam@masto.dotsod.com
2022-11-08T16:58:37Z
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@ubergeek Can I clearly state here that violence for personal protection and safety is OBVISOUSLY ACCEPTABLE. My premise throughout the entire thread has always been violence as a resort when there is diplomacy.
(DIR) Post #APOuLCgri0Gr4NO4AK by ubergeek@pleroma.tilde.zone
2022-11-08T17:02:05.110946Z
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@sam How does one engage in diplomacy with a fascist?How did that turn out in the 1930s? Or how did it turn out in 2014?You know what happens when you compromise with a fascist?You just become a little more fascist, yourself. Then, you compromise some more, and you become a little more fascist, still. Rinse, repeat, and you're ending up in a place where you are saying,"There's fine people on both sides...""If there's 10 people eating dinner with 1 Nazi at a table... You have 11 Nazis"
(DIR) Post #APOuLD2qOHqsAXfcQK by sam@masto.dotsod.com
2022-11-08T17:10:17Z
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@ubergeek I love the rhetoric bro, but dont you think we should strive towards a more peaceful world by pointing out to the nazi uncle at the table that he is actually gay and that he is lashing out at the world by becoming a nazi, because he doesnt understand his gayness. Or the violent guy looking at the world to find where he can exactly justify his violent thoughts and claim the position of anarchist, while he is actually a psychopath who needs therapy.
(DIR) Post #APOuLDPt0cHdK0S1L6 by ubergeek@pleroma.tilde.zone
2022-11-08T17:15:59.001875Z
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@sam Appeasement and diplomacy didn't work in the 1930s, didn't work in 2004, didn't work in 2008, didn't work in 2020, and didn't work in 2022.What makes you think it will work now?Do I relish violence? No. But, I grudgingly accept that it's a tool, that we, the working class, must be ready to weild.Thank you for the suggestion for therapy. I've been in therapy for a while. In fact, the intro session I had, I let my therapist know,"I tend to not be a violent person, but will not hesitate to break a fucking Nazi's arms."She called that "Justified anger".Now, if you're wondering what prepared me for the use of violence, in defense of marginalized people, you can thank the United State Government, who trained me in the use of violence.As for being a psychopath? I dunno, I don't think you're qualified to state that, but the US government, my county, my state, and several others have determined I'm a level headed individual, to the point where I am free to carry a loaded firearm, sometimes even in sensitive locations, depending on what I'm doing. And my therapist knows, and has no concerns.I am still wondering what your suggestion for trans folk dealing with Proud Boys are, though... I suspect you're fine with trans folk being gunned down, as long as they were peaceful.
(DIR) Post #APOuLDndaJHYVfYzMO by sam@masto.dotsod.com
2022-11-08T17:19:15Z
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@ubergeek getting gunned down?
(DIR) Post #APOuLEEvwp7HsKKmuG by ubergeek@pleroma.tilde.zone
2022-11-08T17:20:46.169198Z
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@sam Yes. The Proud Boys didn't show up for a peaceful demonstration, and they were only repelled by a group of armed individuals willing to use force to defend them.This has also happened with homeless people too. Armed people showed up, ready to do violence, to protect them from the state, in the US.
(DIR) Post #APOuLEgaI1EbG5Gs0P by sam@masto.dotsod.com
2022-11-08T17:21:49Z
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@ubergeek gimme source.
(DIR) Post #APOuLF8abtdUewNEem by ubergeek@pleroma.tilde.zone
2022-11-08T17:23:44.422281Z
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@sam https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11158745/Rifle-wielding-Antifa-thugs-face-Proud-Boys-demonstrators-Texas-drag-brunch.htmlhttps://dallasexpress.com/city/armed-far-leftists-block-dallas-homeless-vagrant-camp-clean-up/Need more?
(DIR) Post #APOuLFksJYGEZgHoKe by sam@masto.dotsod.com
2022-11-08T17:27:27Z
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@ubergeek violence begets violence, whats new? is the world becoming a better place? absolutley not! My take is that we are in a position where the entire world except a few scums are rejecting the russian invasion, i see that as a good sign. and i would like to continue in the same spirit, that kind of aggression is not welcome and must be responded with proper defence.
(DIR) Post #APOuS0zZbJyqobNxui by icedquinn@blob.cat
2022-11-08T17:30:53.639752Z
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@sam @ubergeek if antifa were not controlled opposition they would have been declared terrorists and hunted. that the state pretends it doesn't exist is telling.
(DIR) Post #APOuYIYRDY0R1NgnlQ by Dogfart@noagendasocial.com
2022-11-08T17:32:03Z
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@icedquinn ANTIFA is just an idea…. Come on man
(DIR) Post #APOut83FSkk0Wn28WW by threalist@social.fbxl.net
2022-11-08T17:35:48.992980Z
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> the entire world except a few scums are rejecting the russian invasionDo you think it is ideologically consistent that the same institutions that are siding against Russia supported invading Iraq and Afghanistan?
(DIR) Post #APOvpvUvmPgCgB1DE0 by sam@masto.dotsod.com
2022-11-08T17:36:48Z
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@ubergeek @threalist i welcome it either way.
(DIR) Post #APOvpvyM11DQ9Qmi5Q by threalist@social.fbxl.net
2022-11-08T17:46:25.550618Z
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Do you ever wonder if you're being manipulated?
(DIR) Post #APOvsBytSypgNe77Me by ubergeek@pleroma.tilde.zone
2022-11-08T17:39:07.176752Z
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@threalist @sam Yes, I think it is ideologically consistent that imperialist states will do what they can, in order to expand both their sphere of influences and control and/or access to resources.And this goes for Russia, the US, and China, in case people get the impression I hold any love, for any state.