Post AOrCH0G3CytKVT6nCK by jk@mastodon.social
(DIR) More posts by jk@mastodon.social
(DIR) Post #AOmrXETLFhArYUNoP2 by jk@mastodon.social
2022-10-21T08:25:38Z
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after months of trying to avoid having to use dropbox on my laptop (running mx linux) i finally bit the bullet and installed it. and you know what happened? you know what happened when i installed their .deb package? it broke X11. i can't use this computer now
(DIR) Post #AOmrXF2R9DFNJKnq6a by jk@mastodon.social
2022-10-21T08:26:30Z
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also, i need this laptop today, and im supposed to leave the house in 30 minutes
(DIR) Post #AOmrXFWvJrdKpt4Bcm by jk@mastodon.social
2022-10-21T08:26:34Z
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NEVER USE LINUX
(DIR) Post #AOmrXFwRmy3A730ZPM by jk@mastodon.social
2022-10-21T08:28:53Z
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i used windows for 10 years. i used a mac for 10 years. ive used linux distros for 10 years. only one of these three categories of things has ever rendered itself inoperable on a regular basis due to me doing completely normal things that anybody would be doing with it
(DIR) Post #AOmrXGLcHOBPN6mfdg by jk@mastodon.social
2022-10-21T08:31:56Z
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this even happened to linus tech tips didn't it? and all the linux fans came up with tons of reasons why it was just a freak occurrence, or why he was especially stupid for having it happen to him. but it happens to me all the time. happens to everybody all the time. you literally need your laptop for something 'real-life important', and then you do something like "install a program", and then you can't use your computer again unless you put in between 1 and 8 hours fixing it
(DIR) Post #AOmrXGnyZwrsn43JqK by Riedler@mas.to
2022-10-21T08:44:06Z
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@jk that's because companies don't care if they break your Linux with random shit. I had a friend who downloaded a .run file to install Nvidia drivers. Broke his installation, had to reinstall. What you experienced is the exact same thing. They were both official software which should've been tested enough to not break your entire system. But they don't care and move the blame to Linux itself.
(DIR) Post #AOmrXIumjbVFKlFmjY by Riedler@mas.to
2022-10-21T08:44:45Z
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@jk The truth is that I've broken Windows a bunch of times as well. The key reason why I use Linux now is that I can fuck around, find out, and then fix it again. With windows, this is usually impossible (and good luck with MacOS lol).
(DIR) Post #AOmrXKYsc1AYRP1Jrs by jk@mastodon.social
2022-10-21T08:41:48Z
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i don't actually have time to fix this today. but i imagine it's due to a problem i encounter a lot on linux, which is "you install something, and for some reason, the package manager decides to delete half your system" which is something that's probably happened to me at least twice? maybe three times? each time i posted about it and there was a couple of incredulous people saying "that simply cannot happen", implying that i was lying or stupid or something
(DIR) Post #AOmrXM8ikFQtKqnSN6 by jk@mastodon.social
2022-10-21T08:43:11Z
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maybe it's a simple fix, like a config file is wrong, or i just need to reinstall one thing. but the time taken to find out what it is is at least the same as the time needed to completely reinstall the OS
(DIR) Post #AOmrXowJfRk2emDSYy by unascribed@sleeping.town
2022-10-21T08:58:16Z
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@jk to be fair in the LTT case, he literally confirmed a prompt that said "You are about to do something potentially dangerous. Please type 'Yes, do as I say!' to confirm"but in general yeah apt/dpkg have a tendency to just. explode horribly(so do all the other package managers, just to different extents)
(DIR) Post #AOmriSqo8LUnKoiNbk by jk@mastodon.social
2022-10-21T08:55:28Z
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@Riedler i think that linux actually is to blame here, but you might not agree. i've never experienced an installer for a program on windows (or an app bundle on a mac) overwriting or removing something which is necessary for the system to boot into a GUI. evidently there is something wrong with the design of a system of interconnected packages (and the program that manages them) that allows this to happen on a regular basis
(DIR) Post #AOmriTJWPaSqls9JMe by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-21T09:01:12.760362Z
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@jk @Riedler Yesno. "Linux" here is your distro's package manager and security measures allowing this. It simply wouldn't be an irreversible issue in e.g. Fedora Silverblue or NixOS. Flatpak apps also have highly low odds of messing with your system.Then again, terrible developers really go out of their way to make their stuff as broken as possible.
(DIR) Post #AOmrpXvxdJSp7vVC5Y by jk@mastodon.social
2022-10-21T08:58:20Z
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@Riedler oh yeah, that sounds fine for like a hobbyist thing. like building your own Z80 on a breadboard. but have you ever experienced a feeling of fear and uncertainty about doing something like "installing a program"? knowing that maybe, you'll fuck up your entire day if you accidentally do something like "install a program" half an hour before an important appointment? how could you trust software like this for something actually critical to your life or your career?
(DIR) Post #AOmrpYNbyVa8VgRHBg by jk@mastodon.social
2022-10-21T08:59:56Z
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@Riedler i think i've probably only ever 'broken' windows once, and it was when i was literally manually removing files from system directories myself. maybe you've had a completely different experience and windows actually breaks more for you than linux. i wish that was true for me
(DIR) Post #AOmrpYmmSviNlkDNQ0 by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-21T09:02:28.805612Z
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@jk @Riedler (that's my experience, the thing happily breaks every time it loads drivers like it shouldn't and it handles power outages definitely worse than any Linux)
(DIR) Post #AOms4nedSzhaE8fiQC by jk@mastodon.social
2022-10-21T09:02:41Z
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@xerz @Riedler are you suggesting that i should use Fedora Silverblue or NixOS then? would this prevent this kind of issue, like the one that's wrecked my day today, from happening again? or would there still be similar issues of a similar magnitude happening at a similar regularity, relative to like, using windows?
(DIR) Post #AOms4o1K6dqlMVHpmi by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-21T09:05:14.059302Z
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@jk @Riedler If they have what you need, they MAY happen BUT fixing is as simple as rebooting and choosing the boot option for the previous setting. As if nothing happened.I highly DON'T recommend NixOS for most people. Silverblue (and Kinoite for KDE folks) tho, is my go-to recommendation now for people (and if they need e.g. government stuff I tell them to install VMs)
(DIR) Post #AOms7JhBJGQmBD3x32 by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-21T09:05:43.109817Z
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@jk @Riedler If you install things from outside your distro, things MAY happen BUT fixing is as simple as rebooting and choosing the boot option for the previous setting. As if nothing happened.I highly DON'T recommend NixOS for most people. Silverblue (and Kinoite for KDE folks) tho, is my go-to recommendation now for people (and if they need e.g. government stuff I tell them to install VMs)
(DIR) Post #AOmsju2qbz2vv5b1ua by dibi58@this.mouse.rocks
2022-10-21T09:12:36Z
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@jk yes, i had the same problem with most of versions of windows ...but server is normally stable, if can pay the $$$ or get at school a free license ...
(DIR) Post #AOmtdyzXPJN5Thmyyu by xenogon@mastodon.social
2022-10-21T09:18:32Z
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@jk to generalise dreadfully linux software seems like it was written by people who know a lot about computers, but not always a lot about the task that the software is actually trying to do. In their spare time. With no incentive to finish it.Because they know a lot about computers they are undismayed when it breaks because they'd actually rather spend time fixing the computer than doing the thing the software is supposed to do, because they are computer people first and foremost.
(DIR) Post #AOmtdzWrPQ1h93NavA by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-21T09:22:47.263492Z
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@xenogon @jk Linux *has* worked like that for most of its history, with some sparkles of elitist "why are you making such incredibly dumb things" here and there. Since 2010 or so the new trend is making things that cannot fail by default and are designed around more formal studies and feedback, though.
(DIR) Post #AOmte0Ulofws8rPRIm by xenogon@mastodon.social
2022-10-21T09:21:04Z
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@jk I think the solution has to involve separating the idea of libre and the idea of free of cost. We need paid-for libre software. I'd gladly pay for such software if it worked to the same standard as the mac software I use.
(DIR) Post #AOmuEiWvZc298dvIeW by stemid@mastodon.se
2022-10-21T08:45:50Z
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@jk Correction, it happens to everyone who doesn't know what they're doing, all the time. I agree with that. But those of us who are experts know enough not to trust certain things, or install certain things that we feel could break. So Linux has been my daily driver for over 20 years. Point being that as much as I would love for this not to be true, Linux on the desktop still only works for Linux pros. Because they know how to avoid operational issues, and how to troubleshoot them.
(DIR) Post #AOmuP1YnfsDL3UiJmq by jk@mastodon.social
2022-10-21T08:52:36Z
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@stemid i think it's actually a demographic thing. whenever i've used linux to do the stereotypical linux-user type things: browser, text editor, compiler, terminal with an ssh session to a server? it's worked fine. a great experience. but whenever i've tried to use it to do all the kinds of broad array of other things people often do on other operating systems, it's hell. linux pros get around this by simply not doing those things very often, and blissfully avoid the problems that ensue
(DIR) Post #AOmuP1zk3hlUP3JpmS by stemid@mastodon.se
2022-10-21T09:05:58Z
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@jk Don't assume what others do. I do the same things anyone else does with their computer. I share files with people without problems, I do backups to the cloud. What we do is not the issue here. The issue is that Linux works fine until something breaks and that's when you need the experience to fix it. But you also need the same experience to avoid things breaking. That's why a small minority are blissfully unaware of issues in Linux desktops.
(DIR) Post #AOmuR4Y9Ww9ouGO5uS by xenogon@mastodon.social
2022-10-21T09:26:49Z
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@xerz @jk can you give an example of such software? I can think of some candidates, but they are not applications I know well and I don't want to prompt.The situation with music production seems especially bad, because of hardware support being so difficult.
(DIR) Post #AOmuR4uqAaJ02d0DGy by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-21T09:31:37.095903Z
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@xenogon @jk Pipewire addresses the hardware issues and is promising, it replaces both PulseAudio and JACK and is actually creating consensus. Flatpak does its best to ensure that your app does not mess with things it shouldn't be as well. Finally, there's a lot of new DAWs popping up like Zrhythm and Bitwig Studio if you're curious enough.The worst part in the audio industry, that aside, is the prevalence of VST plugins, and sadly that affects everyone (not just Linux or FOSS world) and has seemingly no end anytime soon. I suggested building new standards but so far nothing, apparently plugin devs don't like any more work than they (think they) have to…
(DIR) Post #AOmvM2SbyGNSvsxXdY by tromino@snug.moe
2022-10-21T09:38:35.978Z
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@xerz@fedi.xerz.one @xenogon@mastodon.social @jk@mastodon.socialI suggested building new standards but so far nothing, apparently plugin devs don't like any more work than they (think they) have to…well, people are kinda doing that now with CLAP :nko3c:and most plugins in the linux world seem to already support lv2 as an option anyway
(DIR) Post #AOmvM2pIbuWe4FZf04 by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-21T09:41:57.657474Z
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@tromino @jk @xenogon welp, CLAP doesn't address my security or portability concerns, but it IS a step-up I guess…
(DIR) Post #AOmvMlptGYjjf7CGfY by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-21T09:42:07.644927Z
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@tromino @jk @xenogon welp, CLAP doesn't address my security or portability concerns, but it IS a step-up…
(DIR) Post #AOmw07R6tGihwqMvnk by Riedler@mas.to
2022-10-21T09:48:36Z
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@jk @xerz I personally recommend endeavorOS; it's arch without the upfront time investment.
(DIR) Post #AOmw07o9Vb9T6J9KiW by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-21T09:49:13.875057Z
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@Riedler @jk …arr you suggesting an Arch distro to someone whose X11 broke after installing a third party package
(DIR) Post #AOmw0vCzq18iJY9MkC by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-21T09:49:23.171311Z
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@Riedler @jk …are you suggesting an Arch distro to someone whose X11 broke after installing a third party package
(DIR) Post #AOmw3xraQNJXPsaR72 by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-21T09:49:56.141437Z
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@Riedler @jk like, I use Arch myself, I just think this suggestion misses the point entirely
(DIR) Post #AOmwHmTnXsV4AH32W0 by elia@pleroma.elinvention.ovh
2022-10-21T09:52:23.135808Z
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@jk I agree with @xerz recommendations.The issue with installing .deb packages outside your distribution's repositories is that they were NOT designed to be used like that. deb are not designed to be broadly compatible with different distros. You should not mix and match deb packages from different sources, like an Ubuntu 20.04 deb package should not be installed on Debian 10, because it MAY work, but it will probably break. For the same reason a deb package from Dropbox may work on Ubuntu 22.04, but can spectacularly break anywhere else.Yet, why Dropbox is still providing deb packages in 2022 is beyond my comprehension. They should provide flatpak or Appimage packages, because they were specifically designed for this use case (developers publishing their own software directly to users). Flatpak also tries to sandbox applications, a bit like Android's permissions.The problem with linux is that even companies don't know how to use linux.
(DIR) Post #AOmyZf6DvJfMOcfvbE by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-21T10:17:57.456726Z
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@uriel @elia @jk it shouldn't be hard to notice that such implicitly implies a package has full control over your system when being installed. This, believe it or not, is a problem for users, who shouldn't be expected to have to deal with it at all. And that's the issue with the usage of package managers like that.
(DIR) Post #AOmybyAlypH088u52m by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-21T10:18:23.792508Z
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@uriel @elia @jk It shouldn't be hard to notice that such simplicitly implies a package has full control over your system when being installed. This, believe it or not, is a problem for users, who shouldn't be expected to have to deal with it at all. And that's the issue with the usage of package managers like that.
(DIR) Post #AOmz6wRUSnTZjzUXfE by elia@pleroma.elinvention.ovh
2022-10-21T10:24:03.434580Z
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@uriel you are missing a piece: dependency resolution. A deb package also has a list of packages it depends on. If you put a dependency in that list that is not compatible with the rest of the packages of your distro, what happens is exactly what @jk experienced: core system packages gets uninstalled just to satisfy a meaningless dependency. Of course it's hard for the package manager to judge that. (idk what happened to my previous reply)
(DIR) Post #AOn2m0D3f4ph9z0ngW by uriel@bbs.keinpfusch.net
2022-10-21T10:45:02.054Z
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@xerz@fedi.xerz.one @elia@pleroma.elinvention.ovh @jk@mastodon.social this is why root should be a competent system engineer, while users are not.Everything could be better in IT, if only someone realized giving a system to a complete incompetent will never build a good and safe system.
(DIR) Post #AOn2m0de4E6GURS27s by elia@pleroma.elinvention.ovh
2022-10-21T11:04:59.431806Z
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@uriel yes, he shouldn't have used dropbox in the first place. rsync + scripts is more than enough.For everything else there is flatpak.
(DIR) Post #AOn3YqT2fgnr8PmJzU by uriel@bbs.keinpfusch.net
2022-10-21T11:12:53.977Z
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@elia@pleroma.elinvention.ovh you seem a specialist in missing the point.Multiuser systems are supposed to be MANAGED system. Like there are managed network switches (who require skilled people to setup) and unmanaged network switches (where you just plug the cables). The point i see people with 0 skills in IT trying to be the sysadmin of a managed OS. Linux is a managed OS, like most of multiuser systems.What people uncapable to understand what they are doing should, is using an OS where this is not needed, like it was MS/DOS , MacOS 8/9, RISCOS, and more.This is the point: the level of competence required to manage a POSIX-LIke system is way too big, compared with the average user. Same happens in the windows world. They should go back to single user systems, with a proxy to browse the internet.
(DIR) Post #AOn3nsnUI8w4hiVoFk by uriel@bbs.keinpfusch.net
2022-10-21T11:15:42.000Z
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@elia@pleroma.elinvention.ovh you seem a specialist in missing the point.Multiuser systems are supposed to be MANAGED system. Like there are managed network switches (who require skilled people to setup) and unmanaged network switches (where you just plug the cables). The point i see people with 0 skills in IT trying to be the sysadmin of a managed OS. Linux is a managed OS, like most of multiuser systems.People uncapable to understand what they are doing should start using an OS where this is not needed, like it was MS/DOS , MacOS 8/9, RISCOS, and more.This is the point: the level of competence required to manage a POSIX-LIke system is way too big, compared with the average user. Same happens in the windows world. They should go back to single user systems, with a proxy to browse the internet.
(DIR) Post #AOnBSwcDhQyS69lhvk by elia@pleroma.elinvention.ovh
2022-10-21T12:42:28.523815Z
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@uriel I agree with you: one should use the tool that is appropriate for his skills and his goals and so on. But why can't Linux introduce tools that make it easier for users to use? Like a software layer that closes the gap between managed and unmanaged systems?Let me rephrase my statements: users should not use deb/rpm packages because they are simple, yet powerful and one should understand all the implication of "simply installing a package". Companies should not distribute their software to users as deb/rpm packages because users don't want a managed system.Flatpak is much more limited than deb/rpm and it's sandbox is much more similar to Android than Unix. Users like that, because they need an unmanaged system, where they can't/don't want to mess with the system. Keep the simple and powerful deb packages if you want to, but also allow users to simply "install an app without breaking X11".
(DIR) Post #AOnCrbG0LWkL3BhKlM by shoeberto@straylight.expectnomore.net
2022-10-21T12:38:05Z
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@jk "install package, which removes every other package" has absolutely happened to me 3-4 times in the past few years. Luckily only once on a work machine.I think I just put up with it because the overall Linux experience (full control, and things usually Make Sense) is better for me than Windows (relatively locked down and frequently nonsensical). But it's absolutely a barrier if you aren't 1) fairly technical and 2) a glutton for punishment.
(DIR) Post #AOnDxG7BxtIDAeq1wG by jk@mastodon.social
2022-10-21T13:01:44Z
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@shoeberto yeah, I like linux for all those reasons too. if you use it in a really restricted way it’s great. it’s just a shame that it can’t really be used generally without those risks
(DIR) Post #AOnDxGerwgEOr6avQm by Linux_in_a_Bit@linuxrocks.online
2022-10-21T13:10:07Z
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@jk @shoeberto And yet people still voted for Debian over Fedora in the distro vote war thing.
(DIR) Post #AOnJCz8BNWbItrcTke by xenogon@mastodon.social
2022-10-21T14:04:03Z
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@xerz @jk yes bitwig and reaper both work fine on linux. Reaper is my preference, but Bitwig is obv good for more electronic styles of music. Getting plugin devs to support linux is an issue, sure. I'm plugin format agnostic. My U-he linux vsts work fine.
(DIR) Post #AOnJCzZTk2R2GWOHIW by xenogon@mastodon.social
2022-10-21T14:07:08Z
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@xerz @jk but the insurmountable problems for me were:1. fragility of the audio stack. I had to launch several apps in the right order manually. Hope it works. Then if I have to change sample rate starte over. Whereas on mac i just open the DAW and go.2. Hardware drivers and repeatable latency. Each time I restarted jack the latency was different. I will elaborate.
(DIR) Post #AOnJCzwWMMrnPzAgDI by jk@mastodon.social
2022-10-21T14:08:10Z
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@xenogon @xerz wow, this is crazy. this is exactly what trying to do music production on linux was like in 2008. i'm amazed it's still no better, especially since everybody's been going on about how many new things they've developed to make it better
(DIR) Post #AOnJD0JYyhIYZRx584 by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-21T14:09:15.357765Z
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@jk @xenogon yeah, PulseAudio proposed itself as the solution but it was buggy as hell, so people stayed on JACKas I mentioned tho, PipeWire so far seems to work smoothly
(DIR) Post #AOnKs3xsPYmFicwzTs by xenogon@mastodon.social
2022-10-21T14:12:38Z
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@xerz @jk test: Do a loopback roundtrip latency test in your DAW with latency compensation turned off. Count the actual latency in samples. Note the difference between that and the latency reported to the DAW and the latency implied by the buffer size.Then restart jack and do it again. Different result yes?Note that the latency reported to the DAW is usually less than real world latency (true even on mac).So set the recording offset manually. But you can't because different each time.
(DIR) Post #AOnKs4NkrLTf0t3eoi by xenogon@mastodon.social
2022-10-21T14:16:37Z
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@xerz @jk think baout what this means for your overdubs alignment with existing tracks.To be fair only some hardware gets this right even on mac. But a RME Fireface over firewire with RME drivers has sample accurate repeatable latency every time. This should be basic standard for all audio.Not sure it is even possible over USB on any platform - though my MOTU M4 on mac with Motu drivers is very very close. On linux is hundreds of samples out.
(DIR) Post #AOnKs4mZN5KKFqfTUm by xenogon@mastodon.social
2022-10-21T14:18:32Z
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@xerz @jk BTW I'm doing such tests in reaper which allows recording latency compensation to be set either with driver reported latency, manually, or a combination. Not sure about other DAWs
(DIR) Post #AOnKs5BjrVSZVuRZj6 by xenogon@mastodon.social
2022-10-21T14:22:09Z
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@xerz @jk To prempt any possible confusion - I'm talking about recording latency compensation here, which is unrelated to plugin delay compensation. There should be no plugins for this test.
(DIR) Post #AOnKs5d2E1IIsZDNGy by xenogon@mastodon.social
2022-10-21T14:24:26Z
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@xerz @jk another premptive caution - not addressing absolute latency here either - the issue is repeatable latency so the recording offset can be set correctly. Proprietary drivers on good audio hardware usually achieve lower absolute latency as well, but that's another issue.
(DIR) Post #AOnKs65OWZymIWU1Tc by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-21T14:27:52.620649Z
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@xenogon @jk (now I wonder how overlooked upstream is on that regard…)
(DIR) Post #AOnLKBCL6z0SGE7eVs by msh@coales.co
2022-10-21T14:32:58Z
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@jk @shoeberto my take is if you use Linux the way Microsoft or Apple FORCE you (or at least really want you to) use their OSes then you don't encounter these problems and things stay very stable. The freedom to shoot your own feet if it suits you in Linux is very valuable but it could do a way WAY better job of informing users of the consequences.I have used linux since the mid 1990s, and exclusively on my personal computers for nearly 20 years. I admit it still frustrates me regularly, but at this point it happens exclusively when I must install closed source software, whether or not they provide "official" .debs or repos. They barely test and do not care.Dropbox nearly ruined my computer a number of years ago and I have sworn off it ever since. I am lucky to be in a position where I can do so. Sorry to see it is still flaming garbage.Modern computers were a mistake ultimately. Gonna take revolutionary changes to fix it.
(DIR) Post #AOnLkn8UgKKbS70sb2 by xenogon@mastodon.social
2022-10-21T14:32:50Z
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@xerz @jk which upstream?I think it is ultimately a device driver issue, and theres AFAICT no audio interfaces with manufacturer drivers for linux.I have never had a successful test for repeatable latency on linux, and I've tried alsa and ffado, usb and firewire and severl diff interfaces.but it is theoretically possible that there is an interface that works correctly. maybe? unless the problem is baked into jack or alsa.
(DIR) Post #AOnLknekkO8T4A6dsW by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-21T14:37:42.404938Z
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@xenogon @jk by "upstream" I mean the Linux source code, and it probably has something to do with the drivers if you have measured proprietary ones and they work better. I can guarantee you there's latency and concurrency issues within the rest of the stack, though – I'm no expert on that field atm tho, so all I can tell is that my biggest help so far has been switching to PipeWire…
(DIR) Post #AOnLlSLLTRyNFqLDou by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-21T14:37:55.149777Z
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@xenogon @jk by "upstream" I mean the Linux (driver) source code, and it probably has something to do with the drivers if you have measured proprietary ones and they work better. I can guarantee you there's latency and concurrency issues within the rest of the stack, though – I'm no expert on that field atm tho, so all I can tell is that my biggest help so far has been switching to PipeWire…
(DIR) Post #AOnMweCNptCjAB38sq by GNUxeava@mk.absturztau.be
2022-10-21T14:50:15.065Z
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@xerz@fedi.xerz.one @Riedler@mas.to @jk@mastodon.social arch users are the type of people who will recommend the distro to airlines
(DIR) Post #AOnN5E5MIHgqmRr2nI by jk@mastodon.social
2022-10-21T14:52:16Z
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@xerz @Riedler i use arch on one of my laptops. its quite normal and ok and hasn't even broken because i've never upgraded it. i used manjaro for ages too. until it eventually broke in the same way. deleted all my packages, and it wasn't even a third party package that did it. it was just a normal system upgrade
(DIR) Post #AOnN8aXvF481JGonC4 by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-21T14:53:18.327911Z
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@jk @Riedler yep, leaving it for a while is indeed the #1 cause of Arch installs breaking :blobcatfluffowo:
(DIR) Post #AOnO3uH8YsQV0OIZRw by xenogon@mastodon.social
2022-10-21T14:53:10Z
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@xerz @jk I'd love to hear more info on your setup and experience with linux audio. If you have something that works or nearly works with pipewire I'd be tempted to have another go. Have you done loopback tests? I think for some musicians who don't do overdubs or use external processing or do re-amping or anything else like that it may not actually be an issue.also - MIDI is another can of worms again. results probably different.
(DIR) Post #AOnO3ukCong8SXtml6 by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-21T15:03:39.650459Z
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@xenogon @jk Indeed, my setup is pretty simple and noob level (I do use MIDI over USB, but just to plug it straight into a Casio or an Atari ST (don’t ask)), and since I can only speak for myself I’m not too eager to tell you what the root cause of issues is nor the solution… I probably haven’t pushed hard enough yet indeed :blobcatuwu:
(DIR) Post #AOnO7FwmRXjV5UNFb6 by jk@mastodon.social
2022-10-21T14:56:29Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@xerz @Riedler i guess youre supposed to have a cron job to run it every second
(DIR) Post #AOnPf4ZpK8PVciKJ8a by PeterCxy@comfy.social
2022-10-21T14:53:11.124Z
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@jk@mastodon.social @xerz@fedi.xerz.one @Riedler@mas.to pacman will not (and has never) delete any package silently -- it does not even remove dependencies automatically if you remove a package. Manjaro likely had a broken system upgrade (Arch being Arch :), but it's not the same as what tends to happen with apt.
(DIR) Post #AOnPf4yzoYXksm6PMu by jk@mastodon.social
2022-10-21T14:55:20Z
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@PeterCxy @xerz @Riedler i'm hearing that the package manager for arch is bad, and that the package manager for debian is bad, and to avoid both
(DIR) Post #AOnPf5PaDhoKDEXdoG by PeterCxy@comfy.social
2022-10-21T14:58:18.044Z
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@jk@mastodon.social @xerz@fedi.xerz.one @Riedler@mas.to My personal opinion is that pacman is simplistic, not bad -- and that can be a good thing. It cannot handle a lot of the scenarios that apt handles, but as a return, pacman will never do things silently that you did not ask it to do -- while apt will happily remove your entire desktop environment if it decides that is the best way to resolve a dependency tree conflict.
(DIR) Post #AOnPf5qAcr4tXgysFc by Riedler@mas.to
2022-10-21T15:19:04Z
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@PeterCxy @jk @xerz pacman is many things, but not simplistic… what scenario can apt handle that pacman can't?
(DIR) Post #AOnPpW5lsTOnr9FSFs by Riedler@mas.to
2022-10-21T15:21:09Z
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@flaky @jk huh, that sounds like you're using deadbeef… are you? I had a similar problem a year ago or so, but overall, deadbeef is the best music player I've had - ever.
(DIR) Post #AOnQ6KKKsCBgI44nce by Nach@mastodon.social
2022-10-21T09:29:32Z
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@jk Same. Spent my first six months of freelancing on Ubuntu LTS (!), and official updates broke it twice. So I then bought myself a computer instead of a project
(DIR) Post #AOnQ6L8JsMAan5SiX2 by jk@mastodon.social
2022-10-21T12:07:59Z
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@Nach you’d expect this to be the most stable thing, right?? the long-term support version of the most popular and well-known linux distribution!
(DIR) Post #AOnQ6LjBfHf0dQi9zs by ruud@mastodon.world
2022-10-21T12:11:16Z
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@jk @Nach Well the problem is that there's 1 Windows, 1 MacOS and 1000 different Linuxes.Software will be tested on Windows, MacOS and maybe a few of the Linux OS-ses but surely not all.(I also use a Mac for my work, and Linux to play with)
(DIR) Post #AOnQ6MHZbRAMM4ncau by jk@mastodon.social
2022-10-21T12:12:59Z
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@ruud @Nach yes but you’d assume third parties would test their software on the most popular distro? you’d assume the distro maintainers would test their own packages that are in the updates for their own distro???
(DIR) Post #AOnQ6Mg28UjRZwF9ii by mdhughes@appdot.net
2022-10-21T15:11:13Z
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@jk @ruud @Nach "Works On My Machine" is the mantra of every dev, but even more so on Linux where nothing is standard. And then they invented Docker so they could ship their machine.
(DIR) Post #AOnQ6N9oLmYF4IAw8O by msh@coales.co
2022-10-21T15:26:27Z
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@mdhughes @jk @ruud @Nach ...and also flatpak and snap and appimage...and every hidden way countless windows and macos apps also do now honestly...So many bandages for the same festering wound.
(DIR) Post #AOnQKAHV1Hj9BjLeK0 by mdhughes@appdot.net
2022-10-21T15:28:58Z
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@msh @jk @ruud @Nach NeXTstep invented the app bundle still used on Mac, which has a stable base system and then you just ship the libraries you need on top.Windows does that with a pile of DLLs and half the time they conflict and stop working, but it's not unusable. Many things can rely on just VSxxx.dll existing somewhere.Flatpak, Snap, Docker don't have a stable OS, so they have to ship so much more.
(DIR) Post #AOoTHHh1V7E0KKZ516 by kino@fedi.intkos.link
2022-10-22T03:36:45.709Z
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@jk@mastodon.socialdropboxx11
(DIR) Post #AOr4pa0zyGThcO2owy by uriel@bbs.keinpfusch.net
2022-10-21T17:56:08.601Z
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@elia@pleroma.elinvention.ovh Why there is no simple heart surgery? Why bridge engineering is so hard? Why build cars requires so much study? Why there is a difference between competent and incompetent?Would not be possible to allow incompetent people to do surgery, build bridges and project cars? Sure, it would be possible: the issue is, this would be a SHIT of world, like IT is close to turn, since when someone promised "java allows monkeys to develop code".No, no and no. If you are not a full skilled system engineer , you should not be allowed to login as root, in no multiuser server. Same as, if you aren't competent you should not do surgery, design bridges, build cars.And I would like to remember you need a license to drive a car, while you need nothing to connect to the internet. Which is where all the issues in IT started. The eternal september.
(DIR) Post #AOr4paSeJSb108yu36 by elia@pleroma.elinvention.ovh
2022-10-23T09:46:46.753627Z
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@uriel because that's not the same... while you need a license to drive a car, you don't need one to use a personal computer. We can argue if that should be necessary, but the entity of damage done by an incompetent surgeon is not the same as that of an incompetent PC user. In this case he simply uninstalled half his system, he didn't damage anything and didn't injure anyone.
(DIR) Post #AOr5AN6v927Hg1jFdg by absc@clacson.abiscuola.org
2022-10-21T19:00:28Z
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@uriel @eliaApart from the competent/incompetent bit where I fully agree we need a proper single-user operating system for the masses.What I don't understand is why no Linux/UNIX system of today allow a user, with their local provileges, to install software in their home directories?Why package managers never allowed that?Mind that, I consider root, su, sudo and friends, on a desktop operating system to be the root (sic!) of all evil.When UNIX was born and the system was shared among programmers on a single machine, every user had their own software in their homes. I never understood why this capability is lost.Convenience? Laziness?
(DIR) Post #AOr5ANZzOxMv8BKSwq by elia@pleroma.elinvention.ovh
2022-10-23T09:50:42.683401Z
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@absc because you are using the wrong tools. nix is a package manager that allows the user to install software in his own user profile. Flatpak does that too, although you might not consider it a "proper" package manager. deb/rpm packages can't do that because they were designed for multi-user systems. @ALeESVm8wydv8EfPoe.uriel@bbs.keinpfusch.net
(DIR) Post #AOrCGzmcyNM72DLIKu by fidel@mastodon.social
2022-10-23T08:15:20Z
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@jk Up to this point I thought the conclusion was going to be NEVER USE DROPBOX. I find it unfair to blame GNU/Linux for poorly packaged software, blame Dropbox in this case. They could also break Windows or Mac but of course they put in 1000x more effort into those OSes.As others have mentioned there are good packaging solutions today: Flatpak, AppImages, Snap, NixOs, Guix. The last two even allow the user to roll back to the previous system generation in case anything breaks.
(DIR) Post #AOrCH0G3CytKVT6nCK by jk@mastodon.social
2022-10-23T10:57:23Z
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@fidel just to clarify, when I blame linux, i'm not blaming GNU or the Linux kernel, i'm blaming the repo maintainers and the wider culture and standards. also, did you read the rest of my thread? the point i was making, is that in this case it was dropbox, but previously i've had apt break my system in this exact way from doing normal system upgrades, and i've had pacman break my system due to *not* performing upgrades for a few weeks. the package manager shouldn't let this sort of thing happen
(DIR) Post #AOrCH0kBOwzi0vCrAG by jk@mastodon.social
2022-10-23T11:00:34Z
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@fidel i don't blame you if you don't want to read the extremely long thread with all the replies, but there's quite a few people saying that it happens to them too, with some regularity, so it's not just me. it seems obvious to me that the the primary responsibility of the package manager would be to ensure that adding additional software to the system is always possible, and never prevents existing software from working, and it seems to fail at these requirements too often
(DIR) Post #AOrCH4lkR4cgUvyA9w by jk@mastodon.social
2022-10-23T11:03:42Z
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@fidel i got quite a few responses saying that actually, no, it's not the package manager's responsibility to ensure that, it's the user, and the user must be wary of everything they ever do with their computer, lest it render the system inoperable. i'm not of this opinion though, but if a lot of the people in charge of the development of system software for linux distros are, it would explain its inadequately dependable nature for me and those other people in the thread who have similar issues
(DIR) Post #AOrCIxWuK3GscmvSls by moparisthebest@moparisthe.best
2022-10-22T02:50:52.424245Z
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@jk So... You installed some shit proprietary program you absolutely did not need and broke your OS and it's the fault of your OS and not the shit proprietary program?Let's say I'm skeptical.
(DIR) Post #AOrCIy5eEt3oMXBCvA by jk@mastodon.social
2022-10-22T06:20:07Z
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@moparisthebest no its the fault of the package manager. i guess thats part of the OS? is it? who can say
(DIR) Post #AOrCIyWEe2KNgzcRMW by jk@mastodon.social
2022-10-22T06:20:30Z
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@moparisthebest it’s impossible to know im afraid
(DIR) Post #AOrCIywp3Bax1S3fns by jk@mastodon.social
2022-10-22T06:33:03Z
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@moparisthebest oh oh, btw. have you got any recommendations for alternatives to Dropbox? i need to be able to store 2TB offsite for $10 per month with file history (eg revert deletions), ideally a web interface for the files, and client support for Mac, Linux, and Windows, due to working with people that use those. i checked out nextcloud and the total opex including a storage server leased from hetzner was still too expensive, and more work to administer
(DIR) Post #AOrCIzPXKQZ0SVUbYm by loveisgrief@mastodon.online
2022-10-23T08:32:51Z
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@jk Syncthing for opensourcehttps://syncthing.net/Or Jottacloudhttps://www.jottacloud.comOr pCloudhttps://www.pcloud.com@moparisthebest
(DIR) Post #AOrCJ0X1A68rw005rM by jk@mastodon.social
2022-10-22T06:36:06Z
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@moparisthebest also the program looked kind of wack? im really not into the idea of going back to ‘rsync cron job’ though, after I lost a bunch of files that way, so im interested to hear your thoughts
(DIR) Post #AOrCSBUXmXFkX6DeV6 by xerz@fedi.xerz.one
2022-10-23T11:12:25.598910Z
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@loveisgrief @jk @moparisthebest or Nextcloud of course :blobcatuwu: https://nextcloud.com/sign-up/
(DIR) Post #AOt2btDAhWAD9zHVL6 by fidel@mastodon.social
2022-10-23T21:23:38Z
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@jk I can agree with that: package managers should do a better job at preventing breakage and other bad situations.I hope the future brings us the experience of #NixOs and #Guix with a better UX.
(DIR) Post #AOt2btep2iHWXkDaRE by 10leej@mstdn.starnix.network
2022-10-24T08:31:32Z
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@fidel @jk portage calls for you.
(DIR) Post #AOtAUG2SkFqjH48zvU by fidel@mastodon.social
2022-10-24T09:59:48Z
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@10leej @jk Can you expand on how portage protects against breakage? Does it offer rollback capabilities? I never got into #gentoo.
(DIR) Post #AOtbXMJMZsSsMLkiJM by 10leej@mstdn.starnix.network
2022-10-24T15:02:55Z
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@fidel @jk handles dependency resolution best, has a per package hook you can make use of to hook filesystem snapshots, can report news direct from upstream and even provide suggestions on fixing things that could break.