Post AFAbaTbV6K2xmznKAy by alcinnz@floss.social
(DIR) More posts by alcinnz@floss.social
(DIR) Post #AF6rdc4Fv7mVdchXRA by avalos@mstdn.social
2022-01-04T21:53:34Z
2 likes, 4 repeats
After Mozilla recently began accepting donations via BitPay, many people started being vocal about cancelling Mozilla and Firefox and switching to other browsers.I know crypto sucks, but don't y'all realize that the other browser engines are developed by megacorps that are LEAGUES ahead in terms of ecologic impact, and that are almost entirely built on top of evil business models?Mozilla's only sin was accepting donations via BitPay. Please let's stop being so toxic about everything, and boycott BitPay and Bitcoin rather than Mozilla, shall we?
(DIR) Post #AF6sdt2IvpMKDeTzw8 by JoseMariaHdz@mastodon.online
2022-01-04T22:04:47Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@avalos totalme te de acuerdo Iván!
(DIR) Post #AF6tQGEjyYGC4gMmBc by me@social.catgirl.is
2022-01-04T22:13:32Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@avalos I’m using Waterfox but not because of them using BitPay I do not care if they like NFTs or cryptocurrency like at all. Mozilla has done bad things such as firing 25% of their employees and lying about critical privacy features in Firefox so I don’t trust them anymore. Waterfox removes their studies system, telemetry, and Pocket integration. For example:https://catgirl.is/posts/mozillas-implementation-of-dns-over-https-in-firefox-and-their-claims-are-misleading-at-best/
(DIR) Post #AF6tqgELxDDmDomazg by amerika@noagendasocial.com
2022-01-04T22:18:20Z
2 likes, 1 repeats
@avalos > Mozilla's only sin Brendan Eich
(DIR) Post #AF6wHHzgNBximRjjZA by avalos@mstdn.social
2022-01-04T22:45:32Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@jbauer @me You're right, Mozilla has done other bad stuff, but it doesn't compare to what megacorps do all the time. Mozilla has:1. Terrible management and strategic planning.2. Terrible overpayment to executives.3. Terrible profitability and on top of that, toxic users complaining all the time about their measures to become more financially independent from Google.4. Some bad defaults in Firefox that can totally be changed.
(DIR) Post #AF6wWQPJNHo3DYwRk0 by me@social.catgirl.is
2022-01-04T22:48:15Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@avalos @jbauer I’m not willing to give them unlimited chances. They don’t get to be evil, say oops sorry, and get another chance. Mozilla is a mega corp and has acquired several small companies. Bad defaults can be changed or I can switch to a fork who isn’t evil. Waterfox is backed by another company who has the resources to scale its development without Mozilla’s help. Mozilla are bad stewards of Firefox and I recommend even moving to our own fork of Gecko over time.
(DIR) Post #AF6xDJ66QbN8zzP9Si by inference@pleroma.inferencium.net
2022-01-04T22:55:59.738156Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@me @avalos @jbauer If security is your concern, Firefox and Gecko is out. Chromium is, like it or not, the best option.If privacy is your concern, Firefox and Chromium are out. Tor Browser is the only option.You cannot have privacy without security, so it's a balancing act, and we should apply strategic threat modelling and logic, instead of emotional hatred of companies.
(DIR) Post #AF6xECrV64xxwv0HTc by inference@pleroma.inferencium.net
2022-01-04T22:56:11.154432Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@me @avalos @jbauer If security is your concern, Firefox and Gecko are out. Chromium is, like it or not, the best option.If privacy is your concern, Firefox and Chromium are out. Tor Browser is the only option.You cannot have privacy without security, so it's a balancing act, and we should apply strategic threat modelling and logic, instead of emotional hatred of companies.
(DIR) Post #AF6xGfpgM7QCNaKUNs by avalos@mstdn.social
2022-01-04T22:56:38Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@me @jbauer And you don't have to give them more chances, that's valid. You're right, thanks to the infinite goodness of Mozilla, Firefox is free software and there are forks that remove all the bad stuff, and that's great! I personally use Parabola's Iceweasel, which does exactly that.For the record, Waterfox is owned by System1, which is an advertisement corporation, so I'd be careful not to idolize them.Mozilla are bad stewards for Firefox, well, to some extent. But I'm skeptical of your claim that System1 has enough resources to maintain Waterfox fully independently from Mozilla.
(DIR) Post #AF6xSjj9hWeJvx1q3k by me@social.catgirl.is
2022-01-04T22:58:41Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@avalos @jbauer System1 has promised to not add telemetry and let Alex lead the project in exchange for the Bing search advertising revenue. Only time will tell but until their open source fork behaves badly, I trust System1 over Mozilla.
(DIR) Post #AF6xud24Bc7NHIAr56 by avalos@mstdn.social
2022-01-04T23:03:51Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@me @jbauer “In exchange for the Bing search advertising revenue.” 😂
(DIR) Post #AF6y55VDBqSgTKnHTU by me@social.catgirl.is
2022-01-04T23:05:44Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@avalos @jbauer luckily like Firefox it’s open source so we can audit them if they do bad things. I think if Mozilla keeps misbehaving they could redirect contributors to Waterfox and fully take over and kick out Mozilla from leadership if the majority of people use their fork.
(DIR) Post #AF6y6ef9wx3RoHC5wm by me@social.catgirl.is
2022-01-04T23:00:31Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@inference @jbauer @avalos Mozilla lied whereas Google openly admits to using telemetry for advertising. The issue is they lied about it, collected donation money, while hiding behind the “we are a pretend non profit pls forgive us 🥺” shield.
(DIR) Post #AF6y6f6oI9AlC28B2u by avalos@mstdn.social
2022-01-04T23:05:51Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@me @inference@pleroma.inferencium.net @jbauer When did Mozilla lie? I'm not aware they ever said they didn't use telemetry. And telemetry is not that bad, compared to advertisement and actual spyware.Besides, Mozilla is not entirely a non-profit. It's divided into Mozilla Foundation (a non-profit) and Mozilla Corporation (a for-profit).
(DIR) Post #AF6yAKcCQeA0n7YwzI by inference@pleroma.inferencium.net
2022-01-04T23:06:15.193652Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@me @jbauer @avalos I'm just stating that most people (in fact, I dare say 95% of people) use emotional hatred of Google and governments etc, instead of using logic and provable facts.It matters not who develops something, what matters is what it does and the impact on your life it has.I hate Google's privacy invasion as much as anyone else, but I can't imagine using any web browser other than Chromium-based for security purposes, and I never use a phone other than Google Pixel (flashed with GrapheneOS) because of its digital fortress security.
(DIR) Post #AF6yIu2oaTxezR6Ch6 by avalos@mstdn.social
2022-01-04T23:08:15Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@me @jbauer Then, once everyone is using Waterfox, System1 will break their promises and start adding targeted advertising into it. That's how corporations work.
(DIR) Post #AF6yXUefGdNWablCCG by inference@pleroma.inferencium.net
2022-01-04T23:10:52.246313Z
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@avalos @me @jbauer Which is exactly why you play as a renegade and don't take sides; you switch whenever something like that happens.
(DIR) Post #AF6ylUhrs7guntw0hM by me@social.catgirl.is
2022-01-04T23:13:24Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@avalos @jbauer we don’t know that yet. But we will address it with a new fork when it happens. Mozilla broke security features. It’s not about the telemetry but intentionally undermining the security of DNS over HTTPS and TLS 1.3!
(DIR) Post #AF6yxtTbbUD16MAyjQ by avalos@mstdn.social
2022-01-04T23:15:39Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@me @jbauer Who will financially back up your fork? Another advertising megacorp? Money doesn't grow from trees.Where's the evidence that Mozilla _intentionally_ broke security in Firefox? As in, where's the evidence that it was intentional?
(DIR) Post #AF70Y8TtOUbW169iK0 by avalos@mstdn.social
2022-01-04T23:33:25Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@powerofzero Mozilla has aligned a bit more with its corporate side, necessarily so, because it needs money to sustain Firefox and reduce their reliance on Google's financing in this capitalistic society. Granted, executives are overpaid (maybe for a reason??? maybe so they don't leave??? honestly not sure) and some of their decisions have been catastrophic; but either way, we can't just expect them to magically make money out of thin air. Donations to Mozilla Foundation are probably not enough, they need alternative sources of income.
(DIR) Post #AF76UIEXnB8WpWWlRQ by wizzwizz4@fosstodon.org
2022-01-04T23:36:58Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@me @avalos @jbauer Is this about Mozilla removing ESNI before implementing ECH (the new version of ESNI, as per the updated spec)?
(DIR) Post #AF76UIgC8NFqDHSqXY by me@social.catgirl.is
2022-01-05T00:30:47Z
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@wizzwizz4 @avalos @jbauer Partially, but more-so they allow network admins to disable DNS over HTTPS without even warning the user. The only way to override is to change settings in about:config which isn't intended for normal users. Not even a privacy warning comes up, it silently goes back to the system DNS resolver. That's a huge issue. I described my concerns in a blog post:https://catgirl.is/posts/mozillas-implementation-of-dns-over-https-in-firefox-and-their-claims-are-misleading-at-best/
(DIR) Post #AF76UNoB47bw7UEnB2 by inference@pleroma.inferencium.net
2022-01-05T00:39:54.456526Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@me @wizzwizz4 @avalos @jbauer This is something which happens on every corporate/managed network.Windows Group Policy works this way by enforcing policies.There is no need in a managed environment to warn users, because it's not their network. If your system is being managed by someone else, you can't expect any privacy, not only on web browsers.
(DIR) Post #AF76wKku0di2lB29Am by me@social.catgirl.is
2022-01-05T00:41:26Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@inference @jbauer @avalos @wizzwizz4 @k3vk4 If you return NXDOMAIN to use-application-dns.net you can affect users who are not connected to Windows Server / Group Policy. This attack could work on a public wifi network at a coffeeshop by an attacker using ARP Spoofing to intercept DNS requests. It's not limited to corporate snooping but is a legitimate security issue.
(DIR) Post #AF76wPMcsKGH3KiKWm by inference@pleroma.inferencium.net
2022-01-05T00:44:59.375239Z
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@me @jbauer @avalos @wizzwizz4 And a firewall couldn't prevent this?That's some terrible security. If Mozilla is allowing a network to control an unrelated and unmanaged system, such as a cafe or hotel controlling a customer's laptop, that's beyond unacceptable.Yet another reason to stay away from Firefox. I can't say much about Waterfox and other forks, but despite being lead by Google, Chromium doesn't pull these stunts unless it's a managed/corporate network.Firefox is dead.
(DIR) Post #AF77F89J6USBAEPaSG by me@social.catgirl.is
2022-01-05T00:46:26Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@inference @jbauer @avalos @wizzwizz4 Nope because DNS requests are unencrypted by default. Mozilla SENDS AN UNENCRYPTED DNS REQUEST asking for permission to use DNS over HTTPS otherwise they silently disable it. So yes I'm pissed! And unlike Mozilla, Google requires you to use G Suite to manage installs of Google Chrome. So it's opt-in vs opt-out of no security.
(DIR) Post #AF77FBsRF9Kwj4YAiW by inference@pleroma.inferencium.net
2022-01-05T00:48:23.590737Z
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@me @jbauer @avalos @wizzwizz4 Can't setting Firefox to system DNS when using OS DoH or DoT prevent this?
(DIR) Post #AF77TZ1RzCxiZ2cRxw by alcinnz@floss.social
2022-01-05T00:51:00Z
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@avalos @jbauer @me My stance is we need an alternative to Mozilla, Apple, Google, & their "Gecko", "WebKit", & "Chromium" engines. The web's too expensive to maintain.I'm trying to create such an alternative (Mozilla would loose what influence they still have if they took on the necessary simplifications themselves), but nothing will change overnight. So the question until then is "which of those 3 do you side with"?
(DIR) Post #AF77k2elZi4V6drlUu by me@social.catgirl.is
2022-01-05T00:52:33Z
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@alcinnz @avalos @jbauer My main issue with Chromium is its high adoption rate gives Google almost full control over internet standards as they can add things to Google Chrome and everyone will follow. In an ideal world Waterfox takes over the development of Gecko and Mozilla fades away after losing Firefox's userbase.
(DIR) Post #AF77k38tlgAsc5xpSq by avalos@mstdn.social
2022-01-05T00:53:58Z
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@me @alcinnz @jbauer No, thanks, Waterfox taking over is your ideal world, not mine nor many people's.
(DIR) Post #AF77neB4WrPqLPhDJQ by me@social.catgirl.is
2022-01-05T00:49:16Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@inference @jbauer @avalos @wizzwizz4 Yes, as well as editing about:config settings, that's beyond the point though. The average user now trusts Mozilla to use DNS over HTTPS and that's not happening silently so traffic they think is private suddenly isn't with no warning.
(DIR) Post #AF77nhoB1vTjbZ0zBI by inference@pleroma.inferencium.net
2022-01-05T00:54:38.207690Z
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@me @jbauer @avalos @wizzwizz4 Even if they wanted it to work that way, a warning should be displayed on unmanaged systems, but they shouldn't do it at all.As for managed systems and networks, I agree with it not displaying, because it doesn't matter to employees of employer controlled systems.It's insane that a "privacy focused" company is doing worse than a privacy invading company (although, Google isn't terrible when it comes to Chromium, and there's also Brave).I'd rather use a closed source Chromium-based web browser, such as Microsoft Edge, because they actually have security. They don't advertise as being private, and they shouldn't, because only Tor Browser can currently do that. They do security well, and privacy reasonably well (for a standard browser); Firefox doesn't neither well.How can people defend and use Firefox at this point?
(DIR) Post #AF77rQNZlySMhxLVI0 by me@social.catgirl.is
2022-01-05T00:55:20Z
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@avalos @alcinnz @jbauer Mozilla will follow whoever decides to line their pockets while living hand to mouth. They shouldn't be trusted.
(DIR) Post #AF77rogXP7su5iOzB2 by alcinnz@floss.social
2022-01-05T00:52:52Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@inference @me @jbauer @avalos Wasn't Tor Browser a custom-configured version of Firefox?
(DIR) Post #AF77rti8ib8Xg8Bprs by inference@pleroma.inferencium.net
2022-01-05T00:55:23.678290Z
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@alcinnz @me @jbauer @avalos Yes, it still is, with privacy (but lacks security).Chromium-based browsers have great security.Firefox is neither private nor secure.
(DIR) Post #AF77sHQEYp4fDXzsI4 by me@social.catgirl.is
2022-01-05T00:54:03Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@alcinnz @inference @jbauer @avalos Wasn't implies pas tense. Tor Browser is still based on Mozilla Firefox ESR with a lot of tweaks made by the Tor Project Developers of course!
(DIR) Post #AF77yLKuv8EZ5wOwCm by avalos@mstdn.social
2022-01-05T00:56:35Z
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@alcinnz @jbauer @me An alternative backed by who? As you said, the web is too expensive to maintain. Unless we find instead an alternative to the Web (Gemini?), which is unrealistic given the huge amount of things that rely on it.
(DIR) Post #AF783EIEXD7mhMTZaa by me@social.catgirl.is
2022-01-05T00:57:28Z
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@avalos @alcinnz @jbauer The same way Mastodon is backed by its users and instance owners. A decentralized alternative to major market players.
(DIR) Post #AF784hrq40fyi8pnDk by me@social.catgirl.is
2022-01-05T00:56:29Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@inference @jbauer @alcinnz @avalos Mozilla has been slowly moving more and more parts of Firefox into Rustlang. I dislike Rust heavily but for what its worth it is memory safe so if Firefox is completely ported to Rust the security of Gecko would be greatly improved.
(DIR) Post #AF784leVzUOYRydD0a by inference@pleroma.inferencium.net
2022-01-05T00:57:43.236189Z
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@me @jbauer @alcinnz @avalos Indeed.I love Rust, but, unfortunately, the parts being rewritten in Rust aren't critical parts.If Tor Browser was Chromium-based, we'd have the perfect web browser.
(DIR) Post #AF7879mRFsfjrPTcuG by avalos@mstdn.social
2022-01-05T00:58:11Z
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@me @alcinnz @jbauer I trust Mozilla (half non-profit and half for-profit) a million times over an advertising company (System1).
(DIR) Post #AF78HjdanFNbxwNpC4 by me@social.catgirl.is
2022-01-05T01:00:05Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@avalos @alcinnz @jbauer Mozilla lied, at least System1 is upfront they're for-profit and an advertising agency, I trust fucking Facebook more than I trust Mozilla. Being honest when you do bad things makes you 1000 times more trustworthy than lying about it.
(DIR) Post #AF78KU6B1VFudp43Lk by avalos@mstdn.social
2022-01-05T01:00:35Z
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@me @alcinnz @jbauer You can't compare the Web with Mastodon. The first one is extremely complex and fast moving, and the latter is small and relatively stable.
(DIR) Post #AF78Kk0Nso83yUTeXg by inference@pleroma.inferencium.net
2022-01-05T01:00:36.169664Z
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@avalos @me @alcinnz @jbauer Then, trust them. Your threat model and decisions are your own, and you should use what is best for you.
(DIR) Post #AF78PgU4Ozh8VAigIS by avalos@mstdn.social
2022-01-05T01:01:31Z
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@me @alcinnz @jbauer Well, if you trust Facebook more because they're honestly evil (whatever your personal definition of evil is), that's on you. I don't share your opinion.
(DIR) Post #AF78YonoqLncuKJRey by me@social.catgirl.is
2022-01-05T01:03:09Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@avalos @alcinnz @jbauer I trust Facebook more because they don't try to hide the fact they do bad things behind a non-profit personality and call data mining / telemetry "Research Studies".
(DIR) Post #AF78aqzBhFlCG4bIsC by me@social.catgirl.is
2022-01-05T01:01:30Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@inference @jbauer @alcinnz @avalos They've discussed this but Chromium (while this is changing) as things stand is tightly integrated with a lot of Google APIs. The Tor Project does not want to allocate their resources towards degoogling Chromium. Perhaps their stance will change one day. I'd like to see a Chromium-fork similar to Waterfox. I'd give it a try :)
(DIR) Post #AF78arRtyUjFh82Ed6 by avalos@mstdn.social
2022-01-05T01:03:33Z
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@me @inference@pleroma.inferencium.net @jbauer @alcinnz Did @inference@pleroma.inferencium.net block me or my instance? I can't see their toots.
(DIR) Post #AF78gsnPsaZJbryBRw by alcinnz@floss.social
2022-01-05T01:04:37Z
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@avalos @jbauer @me That's the big question!My answer is that HTTP+(X)HTML+(optionally)CSS is proving reasonable to implement (caveats) largely on my own, & would be a smaller jump to make. Could be maintained by it's community!Unless ofcourse you barely use any more of the web than Facebook, Google, Twitter, Netflix, etc! Which too many do...
(DIR) Post #AF78gukId9GPemWirw by me@social.catgirl.is
2022-01-05T01:04:38Z
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@avalos @jbauer @alcinnz Looks like just you. I can see them fine.
(DIR) Post #AF78ijOvmSJV3EOkka by inference@pleroma.inferencium.net
2022-01-05T01:04:56.788989Z
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@me @jbauer @alcinnz @avalos I thought this was the reason and have assumed it to be.Projects such as Ungoogled Chromium aren't great, because they aren't focused on code correctness and seem to only brute force all of the Google code out, without caring about the security implications. I always try to use the closest fork to upstream as possible. The only Chromium-based browsers I trust for security are Chromium and Brave, although I wouldn't mind using Microsoft Edge as a last resort. The only browser I trust for privacy is Tor Browser (this one isn't really debatable because there's no competition to TB).
(DIR) Post #AF790iOoFDjJ9jutrU by inference@pleroma.inferencium.net
2022-01-05T01:08:11.767923Z
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@me @alcinnz @avalos @jbauer I should add that Google Chrome is very secure, but I don't mention it because Chromium exists.
(DIR) Post #AF794lRIsnrfkA0w64 by avalos@mstdn.social
2022-01-05T01:08:57Z
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@alcinnz @jbauer @me Me, and thousands (or millions?) more do Web development (using JS) because it's pretty much the only viable option for a single person to maintain software for, given its impressive cross-platform and accessibility capabilities, as well as its ubiquity, flexibility and versatility.I hate the Web, but I have no other choice.
(DIR) Post #AF796w8s3sKpW5Qcbo by me@social.catgirl.is
2022-01-05T01:09:20Z
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@avalos @alcinnz @jbauer Java is cross-platform XD
(DIR) Post #AF799XxoPdkLOhV4rY by me@social.catgirl.is
2022-01-05T01:08:20Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@inference @jbauer @alcinnz @avalos My main issue with Brave is they bundle the cryptowallet and ads which are distracting, yes you can turn it off but its annoying to do for each computer so it makes Waterfox preferable to me. They are also made by ex-Mozilla employees so there's the guilt by association issue too. They're not my first choice of a Chromium fork.
(DIR) Post #AF799cMm2m5f3HD4KG by inference@pleroma.inferencium.net
2022-01-05T01:09:48.284164Z
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@me @jbauer @alcinnz @avalos I prefer Chromium proper with a few add-ons (especially NoScript).This is for security, not privacy. As I stated, the only browser which does privacy correctly is Tor Browser (but damn that lack of security).
(DIR) Post #AF799vBQ5DIVPZ2llY by me@social.catgirl.is
2022-01-05T01:08:51Z
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@inference @jbauer @alcinnz @avalos Oh yes, I agree Google Chrome is extremely secure, they just happen to collect as much data as possible about your browsing history.
(DIR) Post #AF79Qjn1hGW8zweW36 by alcinnz@floss.social
2022-01-05T01:12:54Z
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@avalos @jbauer @me My answer would be maintain software for the platforms you care about. And until something decent becomes mainstream, The Web's (with JS) an important one to target...Don't worry too much about cross-platform!
(DIR) Post #AF79RvAGtHUEZB5buq by avalos@mstdn.social
2022-01-05T01:13:00Z
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@me @alcinnz @jbauer Not really. iOS is out. Android requires its special Java SDK. Tooling is not as good as the Web's, and distribution and updates are an issue. Users of my GPS tracking software barely know how to use computers or phones, it's unlikely they will have Java installed and up to date.
(DIR) Post #AF79qYFjDKAUkIO1vE by avalos@mstdn.social
2022-01-05T01:17:35Z
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@alcinnz @jbauer @me I'm actually writing a native Android app for Traccar that will share some code with the iOS app thanks to Kotlin Multiplatform. It will also make it easier in a future to share code with the Web as well.
(DIR) Post #AF7A0gdAv24PcsBcem by alcinnz@floss.social
2022-01-05T01:19:24Z
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@avalos @jbauer @me Nice!Also Kotlin looks nice. Like Java without what I dislike about it.
(DIR) Post #AF7A6ePq4FFYUenCEq by avalos@mstdn.social
2022-01-05T01:20:29Z
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@alcinnz @jbauer @me Yes. Kotlin is very promising, it might as well be the Web alternative we're talking about, thanks to Compose Multiplatform GUI framework and other amazing frameworks and libraries.
(DIR) Post #AF7A9uodY76wE3wqw4 by alcinnz@floss.social
2022-01-05T01:21:04Z
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@avalos @jbauer @me I'll have to take a look!
(DIR) Post #AF7ADd5xNNcwQNovrc by avalos@mstdn.social
2022-01-05T01:21:45Z
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@alcinnz @jbauer @me My Kotlin Multiplatform based Traccar app will of course be free-software. I'll share it as soon as it's finished!
(DIR) Post #AF7AJdSquqyfJ7OTCK by alcinnz@floss.social
2022-01-05T01:22:49Z
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@avalos @jbauer @me I'll have a read over it sometime then!
(DIR) Post #AF7md2GIjwAJyZCV1s by snaums@toot.kif.rocks
2022-01-05T08:32:06Z
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@avalos It's not the only thing. They repeatedly make decisions to piss of their users. Screwing with UI every bloody release, achieving exactly nothing; firing their development team, but the managers get a raise. Honestly, fuck Firefox and fuck Mozilla.I've read a blog post a while back, that outlined what Mozilla did to lose their users, I can't find it though.
(DIR) Post #AF7r4sgsJr8CDRACno by tejr@mastodon.sdf.org
2022-01-05T09:21:59Z
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@avalos I do feel like it is somewhat misdirected anger, as much as I mydelf dislike cryptocurrency. The Free Software Foundation accepts cryptocurrency donations, too—that was how I got rid of the last of mine when I soured on even playing with it.
(DIR) Post #AF7rBjAe70sWiYLy4W by tejr@mastodon.sdf.org
2022-01-05T09:23:12Z
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@avalos I do feel like it is somewhat misdirected anger, as much as I myself dislike cryptocurrency. The Free Software Foundation accepts cryptocurrency donations, too—that was how I got rid of the last of mine when I soured on even playing with it.
(DIR) Post #AF7rklNrsK1FiXFCEK by franz@pantherx.social
2022-01-05T09:29:32Z
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@avalos excuse me, why does crypto suck? I assume you have easy access to banking? No problem to transfer money to other people? No transfer fees that sometimes exceed 5%+? Haven't waited 7-14 days for a SWIFT transfer? Haven't had your money confiscated from your bank account because your govt is broke? Aren't under sanction?Well, I'm really happy for you! I'm not sure the rest of the world, has the same experience?
(DIR) Post #AF7rmVrMZ5mg9HsHCK by icedquinn@blob.cat
2022-01-05T09:28:33.442211Z
3 likes, 0 repeats
@tejr @avalos there is the part where mozilla took george soros money and subsequently blogs about how cancel culture is good and we need more censorship because bogeymen.
(DIR) Post #AF7sxietQ3nsz1wuQq by tejr@mastodon.sdf.org
2022-01-05T09:43:05Z
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@icedquinn @avalos Mozilla do a lot of stuff I do not like. What I mean is accepting cryptocurrency as a donation method is not what I would make the centrepiece of my case for why Mozilla has lost its way. I think maybe the absurd excesses of NFTs have set people on edge about it, even more than usual.
(DIR) Post #AF7toXkogzUQVmuNqi by veer66@norze.world
2022-01-05T09:52:37.932385Z
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@avalos Why do people hate Bitcoin?
(DIR) Post #AF80hjfcgmqx7aBDvs by filbertsalim@mastodon.social
2022-01-05T11:09:50Z
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@avalos Agree
(DIR) Post #AF81UlV6fkkuzIdkbA by waweic@chaos.social
2022-01-05T11:18:41Z
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@avalos Accepting donations via cryptocurrencies doesn't *have* to be bad.Addressing the "crypto community" like they did is.I don't mind Firefox becoming more financially independent, but I won't give them a free pass to do everything they want to earn money.Let's not forget that Firefox only needs this much money to keep being supported because Mozilla never opposed any additional web standards. They could have. It's entirely their fault.
(DIR) Post #AF82h06oHlLJitfqHg by StrawberryShortcake@leafposter.club
2022-01-05T11:32:07.614818Z
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@avalos :vivaldi: :blobcathearthug:
(DIR) Post #AF83jnYLWZCTbYS3P6 by christoffer@snabelen.no
2022-01-05T11:43:49Z
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@avalos good post
(DIR) Post #AF85QMadkQ7WO2NvXs by Maxx@mastodon.online
2022-01-05T12:02:43Z
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@avalos make sense
(DIR) Post #AF8AxWcNz3LMocpk7E by MissBehave@mastodon.online
2022-01-05T13:04:45Z
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@avalosI agree that criticising is necessary, but boycott seems no good idea.However, does your "crypto sucks" go out to every currency? What do you think about MobileCoin (the cryptocurrency that @signalapp has integrated in some countries): anonymous and far less energy consuming as they say? https://mobilecoin.com/
(DIR) Post #AF8CVWNdTU7RsTi0TA by zalasur@mastodon.technology
2022-01-05T13:22:06Z
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@avalos Absolutely. It's not as though they Incorporated crypto into the core product or anything. I was disappointed when I heard this news, but I'm not up to "torches and pitchforks" levels yet.
(DIR) Post #AF8DcgjXTnUhy8w2vw by tykayn@mastodon.cipherbliss.com
2022-01-05T13:34:35Z
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@avalosand for science we still have to find the ecologic footprint of classical banks (which are used for FAR MOST payments worldwide) before saying one way of payement is having more impact than an other.and yeah, that is not a reasonable reason to cancel mozilla and Firefox. which is also mostly living from Google's money
(DIR) Post #AF8FoC3tXeVKE44QVs by cylancer@mastodon.social
2022-01-05T13:59:05Z
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@avalos What is wrong with accepting donations via BitPay?
(DIR) Post #AF8GH1Bp2jeKu8WUT2 by inference@pleroma.inferencium.net
2022-01-05T14:04:18.095468Z
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@avalos @me @jbauer Would you really trust a company who can't even test *critical* security and privacy features which are essential to exactly what they're fighting for?This isn't just a minor glitch, this is game breaking.
(DIR) Post #AF8GcPCMyRyPRoyePo by inference@pleroma.inferencium.net
2022-01-05T14:08:08.872548Z
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@me @avalos @jbauer @alcinnz I'm having federation issues.Multiple users are having issues with seeing my posts.
(DIR) Post #AF8GlpIbInxb0GNsCu by SufficientHeight@mastodon.social
2022-01-05T12:14:15Z
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@me @avalos it does but you can disable them yourself by typing “about:config” in the address bar and going through the settings. Waterfox also takes a while to do security updates as they have to wait for Mozilla to add them into Firefox first. So you may be waiting a few days to a few weeks before Waterfox has implemented the fixes, leaving you vulnerable.
(DIR) Post #AF8GltV9g4Na2MHxKa by inference@pleroma.inferencium.net
2022-01-05T14:09:51.521170Z
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@SufficientHeight @me @avalos Firefox security is terrible, anyway.If you want security, it's Chromium-based.If you want privacy, it's Tor Browser (lacks security due to being Firefox-based).Firefox proper has neither security nor privacy.
(DIR) Post #AF8H4Fgruzve4EWNaC by me@social.catgirl.is
2022-01-05T14:12:34Z
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@SufficientHeight @avalos I am well aware that’s beyond the point. Mozilla has announced DNS over HTTPS is protecting user privacy and then silently allows attackers to remotely disable without warning the user. The average user isn’t safe if they have to make about:config changes to get security features Mozilla promised worked out of the box. So I’m pissed at Mozilla for lieing.
(DIR) Post #AF8HUZ9eAp3nxnWtNY by inference@pleroma.inferencium.net
2022-01-05T14:17:56.589073Z
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@avalos Mozilla's web browser sucks for security, and provides no more privacy than Chromium does.At least Chromium has great security.
(DIR) Post #AF8MpRJX1G1jUxvRqK by anornymorse@shitposter.club
2022-01-05T15:17:47.168437Z
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@tejr @avalos Thank you so much for doubling-down on fiat currency. Following you to watch your life decline over the next 24 months.
(DIR) Post #AF8NGj4p5NcOPK3apE by anornymorse@shitposter.club
2022-01-05T15:22:43.059403Z
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@inference @avalos Do you have any critiques about Brave that don't boil down to "I haven't read the source code, but /g/ and r/PCMasterRace gave me talking points about how it's bad, so...." ? It seems like everyone out-of-hand dismisses the best option.
(DIR) Post #AF8NPkGA3bpsgMf2bg by caliandroid@mastodon.social
2022-01-05T15:24:19Z
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@avalosGood point!
(DIR) Post #AF8P5BZ1XsPtBxo9r6 by Bubu@chaos.social
2022-01-05T15:42:59Z
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@avalos Yes, thank you!
(DIR) Post #AF8PEB6Gdgy4MMe4VE by bortzmeyer@mastodon.gougere.fr
2022-01-05T15:44:37Z
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@avalos "crypto sucks" You don't use HTTPS? :-)(I assume this was a typo and you meant "cryptocurrenty sucks"?)
(DIR) Post #AF8QDTYgcratGvAQN6 by msh@coales.co
2022-01-05T15:55:43Z
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@avalos Going and switching browsers will not have any impact, especially considering Mozilla's recent track record shows pretty clearly they don't really concern themselves with browser market share.But you know what they do care about is funding, and so that is why I recommend ceasing all donations to Mozilla until they reverse their decision to accept unethical forms of donation.Furthermore asking people to personally boycott bitpay and other forms of bitcoin payments is the least effective way to affect change. It is far more effective to send the message to those that accept funds via such services that it will impact their revenue. Bitpay's success ultimately comes from the Mozillas of the world, not the end users.
(DIR) Post #AF8RNMC6xao7HZspTE by jlamothe@fosstodon.org
2022-01-05T16:08:41Z
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@avalos There was also taking Google's money (and the strings that came with it) but otherwise, your point stands.
(DIR) Post #AF8SnFvuxg9HLaDqsa by ilovecomputers@xoxo.zone
2022-01-05T16:24:33Z
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@avalos @Gargron people made it sound like Firefox was running a miner in your browser or minted their own ugly NFTs or started their own crypto currency scheme. There’s so many scammy operations under crypto that people forgot that hosting companies and private torrent trackers have been accepting Bitcoin for a long time.
(DIR) Post #AF8c9wklKyZu6qtoSe by g1smo@toot.si
2022-01-05T18:09:31Z
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@avalos Firefox is still the best option for a fully featured and user friendly browser but saying that is mozilla's "only sin" is plain wrong. Are you aware it was mostly financed by google? That they laid off the whole MDN team and most of servo team in 2020? That the executive director's pay has been inversely proportional to the browser share in recent years? Mozilla has many problems and crypto sucks hard, it's right to voice that.
(DIR) Post #AF8cNQw0R2JBToab3I by gudenau@mastodon.technology
2022-01-05T18:11:58Z
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@avalos Aren't all the other big browsers just Chrome? There are a few that they could potentially suffer though like the serenity OS one but...
(DIR) Post #AF8fxY5NclIHwjt23c by icedquinn@blob.cat
2022-01-05T18:52:07.421751Z
1 likes, 1 repeats
@tejr @avalos mozilla takes money from actual surviving nazis and attacks free speech by calling fedi et all "distributed web of hate" and says literally "we need more than deplatforming." they fired their CEO who basically founded the project because of his personal (not related to mozilla) voting record.they do actually reprehensible things. this is just some shit-op.BTC threatens bankers so they're throwing every narrative at the wall to get one that sticks. then they press that one hard. it used to be that you could buy drugs with it; now its the ocean boiling meme.
(DIR) Post #AF8gqeTFaQ7DfzKKWW by g1smo@toot.si
2022-01-05T19:02:01Z
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@avalos Sorry, the chair's pay*Personally I recommend running LibreWolf, a cleaned out version of Firefox :)https://librewolf.net/
(DIR) Post #AF8iE03LbtoFE7uMrY by avalos@mstdn.social
2022-01-05T19:17:30Z
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@icedquinn @tejr That's even more toxic, and it's also FUD.
(DIR) Post #AF8mLJX5yzv5UCZ8LY by avalos@mstdn.social
2022-01-05T20:03:39Z
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@snaums There are tons of more important issues other than something as trivial as the UI, that can totally be changed using userChrome.css. Regarding the other things, I'm aware: https://mstdn.social/@avalos/107566617914384714
(DIR) Post #AF8mfrSXYRGSV0EU7c by categorille@tech.lgbt
2022-01-05T11:57:59Z
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@franz @avalos unsustainable
(DIR) Post #AF8mfrvboMW5x9phQm by franz@pantherx.social
2022-01-05T15:15:48Z
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@categorille @avalos so you're saying, that we should have stopped using light bulbs when they were using 50W instead of innovating to come-up with LED's that use 4W? I mean, I totally agree with you - whatever we are doing right now, may be unsustainable but that doesn't mean we should dismiss it.
(DIR) Post #AF8mfsRVtk2NY6lBA0 by avalos@mstdn.social
2022-01-05T20:07:20Z
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@franz @categorille The problem is that cryptocurrencies such as Bitcoin are excessively power consuming *by design*, so as to avoid control of the network by few. The issue here is not innovation. Also, Bitcoin and other proof-of-work based cryptocurrencies take energy consumption to another level, compared to light bulbs, for example.
(DIR) Post #AF8mnhAbh3gyu7a1dw by categorille@tech.lgbt
2022-01-05T16:53:36Z
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@franz @avalos idk i feel like every time i interact with anyone who pulls out an argument like this they just have no concept at all of the DEEP SHIT we are in ecologically. Not interested by further interaction bc it makes me feel horrible about the future
(DIR) Post #AF8mnhbu3ZWiGmLpBo by avalos@mstdn.social
2022-01-05T20:08:46Z
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@categorille @franz If you're so mad at people who, according to you, have no idea of the “DEEP SHIP” we are in ecologically, then explain it to them. That's a lot more effective than cancelling browsers.
(DIR) Post #AF8mqz3ZeFHPFNrI0G by snaums@toot.kif.rocks
2022-01-05T20:09:21Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@avalos There it is. https://news.itsfoss.com/firefox-continuous-decline/The UI is the thing where you gain nobody and lose everyone, who dislikes the new UI. But there are other factors listed in the article.Honstly, I want a browser, that doesn't change every bloody release, removing old options, adding colours for 2 versions, that doesn't stop working when I run an upgrade, done by a team who know the resources they have and on what front they should be working on. (1/2)
(DIR) Post #AF8n8YRfKMcDvSVPFI by avalos@mstdn.social
2022-01-05T20:12:33Z
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@MissBehave @signalapp I believe MobileCoin was a shit move by Signal, because now the privacy-focused app is prone to governmental regulations that will potentially make Signal not private at all.MobileCoin does consume a lot less of energy because it's based on a different consensus algorithm (based on Stellar's), but the problem is its absolute reliance on Intel's proprietary technologies that are full of vulnerabilities.
(DIR) Post #AF8nXj3X0vpU4eDfqi by avalos@mstdn.social
2022-01-05T20:17:05Z
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@msh No, financially boycotting corporations is not effective, it's just toxic and ridiculous. The most effective way of “sending the message” is publicly advocating against the use of proof-of-work based cryptocurrencies and other environmental threats.See what the founder of Mozilla and developer of Gecko did on Twitter? They used their “credentials” to shame Mozilla hard. That's the way to go.
(DIR) Post #AF8naO4zSc2JsxAfWy by avalos@mstdn.social
2022-01-05T20:17:34Z
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@sheogorath I'm aware of that: https://mstdn.social/@avalos/107566617914384714
(DIR) Post #AF8ndkzYjGsNodEma8 by avalos@mstdn.social
2022-01-05T20:18:11Z
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@g1smo I'm aware of that: https://mstdn.social/@avalos/107566617914384714
(DIR) Post #AF8nr38Eb3QDq9dLVI by avalos@mstdn.social
2022-01-05T20:20:35Z
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@snaums Mozilla is clearly not targetting picky geeks like you with the recent UI changes. They're targetting picky regular people who want something beautiful out of the box.
(DIR) Post #AF8o9YIrRORvjGQWoK by avalos@mstdn.social
2022-01-05T20:23:55Z
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@curlyphries Proof-of-work based cryptocurrencies are a total environmental mess. By design, they consume a LOT of energy so as to avoid few to control the network. Most energy comes from non-renewable sources that aren't planet friendly at all.Right now, the whole Bitcoin network consumes in total, an equal amount of energy than a small country like the Netherlands.
(DIR) Post #AF8ouL9GATUcXZFK6a by snaums@toot.kif.rocks
2022-01-05T20:32:22Z
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@avalos but the "picky regular people" are already using firefox or chrome. And having blocky huge tabs will probably not bring them to firefox.But yeah. Mozilla will never beat Google in technical things, they also will need to be the good people. Currently, only their marketing says that, not their actions. At all.Anyways. Mozillas problems are bigger than UI and bigger than bitcoin. The earlier they lose every user, the earlier they might change or just go under. Both are fine for me.
(DIR) Post #AF8pGxebgZbyKmh9c0 by avalos@mstdn.social
2022-01-05T20:36:28Z
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@snaums Believe it or not, the picky regular people are more likely to migrate to Firefox if it looks pretty to them (really). Recently, there has been more awareness about privacy issues, which makes it more likely that at some point, more people will start looking for alternatives, and Firefox has to be ready to be chosen over others.Also, Firefox is not too far behind Chromium technically.
(DIR) Post #AF8pO0msQysu4yvQfo by zleap@qoto.org
2022-01-05T20:37:43Z
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@avalos @snaums Distros need to be putting alternatives in their repositories to make them easy to find / install, maintainers are also going to have to keep up with the updates etc.
(DIR) Post #AF8pVFFl36BEyHsot6 by zleap@qoto.org
2022-01-05T20:39:02Z
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@avalos Why did they choose to do that, perhaps other sources of income were too low forcing them to make those decisions. It seems free software, generally needs better funding streams.
(DIR) Post #AF8tmwjR36t6YdScfg by franz@pantherx.social
2022-01-05T21:27:03Z
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@avalos @categorille I cannot argue with you on that but wouldn't proof-of-stake based currencies be a first attempt to solve this problem? I mean this technology is literally brand new. Who knows what this evolves to in 10 years?
(DIR) Post #AF8uCdM7i9lzzdo000 by franz@pantherx.social
2022-01-05T21:31:42Z
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@avalos @categorille no, I was just wondering whether you face any of these issues? I'm sure there's plenty of people that have never had any problem and never a reason to look for an alternative.
(DIR) Post #AF8uI14cxMEd06Bk6C by avalos@mstdn.social
2022-01-05T21:32:41Z
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@franz @categorille Proof-of-stake currencies introduce another set of problems, such as those with more tokens having control over those with less tokens, and you know how wealth tends to behave under capitalism. Though, I haven't studied proof-of-stake algorithms, so I might be wrong.Stellar has a different consensus algorithm (SCP [1]) that is worth taking a look at. It has some centralization issues[2], that hopefully can be addressed with further iterations of its consensus protocol, but other than that, it seems really promising.[1] https://www.stellar.org/papers/fast-and-secure-global-payments-with-stellar[2] https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/8802516
(DIR) Post #AF8uUKJDGYGO8HsfGS by avalos@mstdn.social
2022-01-05T21:34:55Z
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@franz I was replying to @categorille especifically. This whole ecological mess with cryptocurrencies is not a matter of issues affecting individuals, but rather about issues affecting the whole world population.
(DIR) Post #AF8uYr9h5Mc9A8aWwK by franz@pantherx.social
2022-01-05T21:35:43Z
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@avalos @categorille yeah, you're right. I'm aware of this problem. Almost a law of nature this thing ...Incidental I have some Stellar. They did a few air-drops. I never looked at their tech though. I'll check it out. Thanks!
(DIR) Post #AF8ucKYGFP0zCajga8 by aral@mastodon.ar.al
2022-01-05T21:36:21Z
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@avalos Only sin? How about the fact that the only reason they exist being that they get paid half a billion dollars a year by Google to allow Google to track their users by default on their browser? Mozilla is not what you think it is (or what they say they are.)
(DIR) Post #AF8udOpvnkMimVVjHs by avalos@mstdn.social
2022-01-05T21:36:33Z
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@franz @categorille I received all of the Keybase airdrops, that's how I got into Stellar actually.
(DIR) Post #AF8ufuf0S6Jq3nbCuu by avalos@mstdn.social
2022-01-05T21:37:01Z
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@aral I'm aware of that: https://mstdn.social/@avalos/107566617914384714
(DIR) Post #AF8ugEjdoZuUJxvBuy by franz@pantherx.social
2022-01-05T21:37:03Z
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@avalos @categorille yeap, that's how I got them 😄
(DIR) Post #AF8uvCZ6AIsVw07sK8 by avalos@mstdn.social
2022-01-05T21:39:46Z
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@aral I'm also aware of your rants against Mozilla, and I agree to some extent, but well, I don't think they have infinite options, they need the money and the web is too expensive to maintain, as some have pointed out, including myself.
(DIR) Post #AF8uzZauU8LoW63eGu by aral@mastodon.ar.al
2022-01-05T21:38:42Z
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@avalos Right. So as Mozilla’s head of public policy once told me: “we’re just another Silicon Valley tech company, why are you holding us to a higher standard?”Gee, I wonder why? Maybe because you don’t tell people that that’s what you are.
(DIR) Post #AF8vIwYzJLQVFvOZW4 by aral@mastodon.ar.al
2022-01-05T21:42:10Z
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@avalos They never should have made a deal with the devil to begin with; never should have become a half-billion dollar public relations vehicle for Silicon Valley.But, hey, don’t take my word for it…https://twitter.com/jwz/status/1478022085737803776?s=20
(DIR) Post #AF8vJhzAznIkKl0eMS by avalos@mstdn.social
2022-01-05T21:44:13Z
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@aral Indeed, they're just another Silicon Valley tech company, but I personally think they're not even a bit close to what other Silicon Valley tech companies are doing. Mozilla is not as evil as you think, maybe we should relax.
(DIR) Post #AF8vM27J7TMrLfvB1k by feld@bikeshed.party
2022-01-05T21:44:36.753560Z
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@aral @avalos name an open source project pure enough to pass your purity test that has impacted the lives of 250+ million humans. It must be something they choose to use deliberately i.e., an application not an OS or some other library that happens to be bundled with everything.
(DIR) Post #AF8vVR29qeenEWznRQ by avalos@mstdn.social
2022-01-05T21:46:20Z
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@aral How else do you expect them to make enough money to maintain a web browser? You will give them the half-billion dollars instead?
(DIR) Post #AF8vauRjv7Y1u2ZVse by avalos@mstdn.social
2022-01-05T21:47:19Z
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@feld What is your point? That they have impacted the lives of that amount of people for good or for evil? @aral
(DIR) Post #AF8wPoHwZix5ZaGFm4 by feld@bikeshed.party
2022-01-05T21:56:29.276117Z
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@avalos @aral in general: trying to paint the world as a binary good or evil will never get you anywhere. If you actually want to impact the lives of as many humans as possible it cannot be done without a lot of money and effort. Trying to inject purity tests into open source software is simply a pissing contest. Either you care about the purity of your beloved open source darlings or you care about the impact the software can have on the world at large.Compromises must always be made. The world is complex and full of nuance. You either get used to it and celebrate your successes or you can spend the rest of your life shitposting on the internet to whoever is foolish enough to listen to your nonsense.Mozilla is fine and doing exactly what they need to do to exist for the next 10 years. The naysayers are the ones who need to have a reality check, honestly.
(DIR) Post #AF8wj7O1nE3UJ5JVwW by avalos@mstdn.social
2022-01-05T22:00:00Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@feld @aral I can't agree more with what you're saying. Yes, things are not as binary as a lot of people try to make it seem. Besides, good and evil are relative, and we must accept that there can't be absolute goodness in everything, sometimes trade-offs are inevitable.
(DIR) Post #AF8wpRvaKlojkg1qfg by aral@mastodon.ar.al
2022-01-05T21:47:58Z
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@feld @avalos Dude, if you think the equivalent of Greenpeace taking half a billion dollars from ExxonMobil each year is just fine and dandy, it’s you who has to jump through hoops to justify your position, not me.
(DIR) Post #AF8wpSNwdKVDAdIUsK by feld@bikeshed.party
2022-01-05T22:01:07.436938Z
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@aral @avalos you speak like someone who doesn't have a fucking clue that ExxonMobil's oil is the backbone of our comfortable modern society -- especially in regards to medical advancements. Oil companies are not pure evil, but plenty of people love to characterize them as such.
(DIR) Post #AF8wq5Klp48Vy570qG by feld@bikeshed.party
2022-01-05T22:01:16.399345Z
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@avalos @aral precisely.
(DIR) Post #AF8wy6LJxIsxPiByCW by feld@bikeshed.party
2022-01-05T22:02:42.171947Z
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@aral @avalos do you always boost your own posts or only when you really need your followers to dogpile on someone?
(DIR) Post #AF8x07xaugm10c3niC by avalos@mstdn.social
2022-01-05T22:03:05Z
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@feld @aral Well, to be honest, I don't agree entirely. Oil industry is literally destroying the planet irreversibly, to the point where it won't matter whatever else they do because we will all be dead. So this is a terrible analogy to what we're discussing.
(DIR) Post #AF8xjr5PywXTzqWa0G by ArneBab@rollenspiel.social
2022-01-05T22:08:41Z
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@feld @aral @avalos That’s not the problem. The problem is that we as society fail to either create rules for browsers that small players can fulfill or fund ethical players well enough.That said: The funding of Mozilla is on the level of Matlab with just 4 million users. That’s not actually that much money. Germany alone has blown funding on the level of 10% of Mozillas yearly funding into blockchains. Which means: Yes, I think the EU should fund FF development. Maybe pay #Igalia for that.
(DIR) Post #AF8xjsfy4XMyvUdHc0 by ArneBab@rollenspiel.social
2022-01-05T22:10:24Z
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@feld @aral @avalos Mozilla basically gets 2€ per user per year. That’s what it costs to run a Twitter-account.
(DIR) Post #AF8xkIO8TSYQfiUPQW by feld@bikeshed.party
2022-01-05T22:11:23.648521Z
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@avalos @aral ecological impact on the extraction of oil cannot be understated, but that alone is not destroying the planet irreversibly. Governments tend to be the real problem:- US military alone has a higher carbon footprint than 140 countries combined- US Gov gives subsidies to oil & gas to keep the prices low which hurts alternative technology development and deployment -- all to protect the economy with zero regard for the cost of this externality- Many governments completely fail to enforce environmental rules and regulations allowing some giant corporations to spew a mind boggling amount of greenhouse gases into the atmosphere or destroy ecologies (land, water table, ocean life, etc etc)What happens to the oil & gas after they've sold it is not their responsibility.
(DIR) Post #AF8y1jKdYH4D9uANYO by avalos@mstdn.social
2022-01-05T22:14:34Z
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@feld @aral Okay, you're right. Still, it's not only oil extraction, but oil burning to produce energy as well. Exxon (if I remember correctly, or maybe it was someone else?) was aware of the impact of oil industry on climate change, and still decided to launch huge media and TV campaigns to make everyone believe it was all fine.
(DIR) Post #AF8yVkC8uL2uWTVNBY by avalos@mstdn.social
2022-01-05T22:19:59Z
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@feld @aral And what happens to oil & gas after they've sold it is absolutely their responsibility. Both theirs and the government's.
(DIR) Post #AF8yWXpsLOwYTtTIQ4 by feld@bikeshed.party
2022-01-05T22:20:07.383942Z
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@avalos @aral another way of looking at this is as followsbefore oil: famines, mass starvation, poverty far worse than anything that exists today, and diseases worse than we currently have circulatingafter oil: GMO crops, pesticides, herbicides, fungicides, and synthetic fertilizers producing yields that cannot be replicated without this technology giving us a massive abundance of food as well as wealth and huge medical advancements BUT we now have ecological disasters from overuse that we *can* abateBeing alive today is the best time to be alive in all of human history.
(DIR) Post #AF8yfXOBNGLThao3iy by feld@bikeshed.party
2022-01-05T22:21:45.565383Z
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@avalos @aral we must apply this logic to everything then: guns, alcohol, cars, ... it just doesn't work.
(DIR) Post #AF8zp12oaMfcEktZjc by feld@bikeshed.party
2022-01-05T22:34:34.980609Z
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@avalos @aral oil burning: I don't like it either, but we just don't have an alternative energy source as dense. But we really could do something about burning oil when other options *are* viable. And ffs I really wish the world would collectively take action against the shipping companies that burn the absolute worst polluting fuel in existence when on international waters, but hey -- that's why it's cheap to get stuff from China!advertising: sure, that part is pretty damn evil but that's the cost of free speech (in USA). I don't know that there is a solution.We have a list of other similar problems. Some have been solved, many have not:- tobacco -- amazingly we did something about it because collectively we decided as a country that the damage was too direct to the American people that we must force them to cease advertising entirely. (I'm genuinely surprised this hasn't been challenged and struck down by the Supreme Court btw, but maybe Big Tobacco has just been waiting for the liberals to finally be outnumbered on the court)- sugar -- we're on the same road to hell as we were with tobacco- teflon and other forever chemicals (PFAS) -- we've blown this case wide open but no action is being taken. All the advertising around these products are designed to mislead.- plastics -- they were never recyclable (unless it's HDPE), but we still let them pretend it's fine- advertising medications direct to consumers:shrug: it really sucks
(DIR) Post #AF90N8wxhPHKbMQmO0 by fsan@tilde.zone
2022-01-05T22:39:50Z
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@feld @aral Aral tends to boost his own posts, I don't believe he is trying to get people to "dogpile" you, I've been following him for a while and I've never seen him engage in that kind of behavior.
(DIR) Post #AF90N9UzesV6IuLxQm by feld@bikeshed.party
2022-01-05T22:40:50.529228Z
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@fsan what other purpose could there possibly be to boost your own posts which are a reply to someone else other than to shove it into the face of your followers who are filtering replies so they'll engage on your behalf?
(DIR) Post #AF95LcefKcp72MjZdA by stuff@mu.zaitcev.nu
2022-01-05T23:36:36.755267Z
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@feld @fsan I'm kind of curious about self-boosting too. I do it because federation on my instance is somewhat broken and this helps a little (but not much). At times I even self-boost through my sock puppets at other instances for that reason. I'm not sure why users of mainstream Mastodon instances do it though. The Orwell & Goode account does it in 70% of the posts, and it is on Twitter for crying out loud.
(DIR) Post #AF9OVELKv4C0RtRTHs by avalos@mstdn.social
2022-01-06T03:11:08Z
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@eris Yeah, you're one of the toxic users complaining about every single measure Mozilla takes to reduce their reliance on Google's funding. If Mozilla can't make money, then who the fuck will fund Firefox's development? You?
(DIR) Post #AF9Of7a4urDcN83Os4 by Guerin@bdx.town
2022-01-05T22:41:36.193039Z
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@avalos Vivaldi isn’t a megacorp…Neither is Opera but i don’t trust them even if they have some really nice ideas
(DIR) Post #AF9OiDiCZrneFvKbBo by avalos@mstdn.social
2022-01-06T03:13:35Z
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@Guerin Vivaldi is proprietary software, so if they start making bad decision, there's no possibility of forks. Besides, it's based on Chromium, which is controlled by Google. Opera is based on Chromium too. Brave too (and they advocate for cryptocurrencies even more). Etc, etc.
(DIR) Post #AF9Ov41tt4WfzWfZPE by avalos@mstdn.social
2022-01-06T03:15:49Z
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@eris You're toxic for spreading FUD about Mozilla. FUD is not exactly being critical, but rather inflating small issues in order to villify Mozilla.
(DIR) Post #AF9P6OlZ86AbURQx2u by avalos@mstdn.social
2022-01-06T03:17:52Z
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@eris (I deleted the previous reply because I confused your toot with another one.) Exactly, you can easily disable the things you don't like, but you can't expect Firefox to make money our of thin air.
(DIR) Post #AF9PZVrJq0Gtsz0X6u by avalos@mstdn.social
2022-01-06T03:23:11Z
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@Taur10 The problem is that Bitcoin is harmful for the environment due to the enormous amount of energy it requires.
(DIR) Post #AF9RZcRVYkrMDH74iG by avalos@mstdn.social
2022-01-06T03:45:38Z
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@feld @aral I don't care about comfort and convenience, I think climate change is more important than how much does it cost to get things from China or how advertisement is product of free speech.I didn't say advertising was bad, I think it is, but that wasn't my point. My point is that Exxon used advertisement to advance their profits at expense of the planet and its people.A lot of things suck, I agree, but let's not put the blame on everything except ExxonMobil and oil companies, they are also to blame. Let's save our pitchforks and use them strategically when there's no other option. ExxonMobil is contributing to the destruction of the planet, and we need to fight for regulation and renewable energy (both R&D investment and actual replacement of oil).
(DIR) Post #AF9ZPMDHqPsscG4xhA by avalos@mstdn.social
2022-01-06T05:13:25Z
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@waweic The thing is, they can't just oppose new web standards. Had they opposed additional web standards implemented in Chrome early on, Firefox wouldn't have lasted for long. It's not their fault, they did what they had to in order to stay relevant and keep fighting for their goals.
(DIR) Post #AF9hRydOlXKRzQ3KKm by thor@pl.thj.no
2022-01-06T06:43:31.864768Z
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@avalos it’s funny how leftists have almost collectively agreed to hate on Bitcoin. it’s free software. it’s anti-authoritarian. it’s a clever idea. you hate on the tech because of who it’s associated with.you should also hate on BitTorrent because it’s popular for piracy. but you don’t. it’s so hypocritical.i’m not an ancap or anything. i’m just observing.
(DIR) Post #AF9hawAZIedIx0q9aa by thor@pl.thj.no
2022-01-06T06:45:09.947650Z
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@avalos (i don’t belong to any wing, politically speaking; i have as many objections to what the right thinks as what the left thinks, really)
(DIR) Post #AF9iZTQykej7UiNkiO by aral@mastodon.ar.al
2022-01-06T06:56:05Z
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@avalos It doesn’t take half a billion dollars a year to make a browser. It takes half a billion dollars a year to sustain a half-billion dollar company. But in answer to your question, we should be funding an independent organisation with a clearly drafted constitution through our taxes.
(DIR) Post #AF9iwvcy5yG5axArGi by pch_xyz@misskey.seediqbale.xyz
2022-01-06T07:00:20.909Z
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@avalos@mstdn.social Mozilla's greatest sin IMHO is their love of cancelling. "Free and open" are not quite adequate adjectives for them.
(DIR) Post #AF9pZVi6zHsmEXMPSq by avalos@mstdn.social
2022-01-06T08:14:32Z
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@thor No, no, we hate on Bitcoin because of its ridiculously high energy consumption *by design*, and the huge ecological impact of generating such energy. Climate change is something serious.
(DIR) Post #AF9pnI9cBdJYF8nQtk by avalos@mstdn.social
2022-01-06T08:17:02Z
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@aral A tax funded independent organisation? Is it possible to be tax funded and independent at the same time?
(DIR) Post #AF9pvFwEJE8LggKicS by avalos@mstdn.social
2022-01-06T08:18:28Z
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@pch_xyz “Love of cancelling.” That sounds like FUD. Please give me a solid example.
(DIR) Post #AF9q9yNjri25a6DZ7A by Guerin@bdx.town
2022-01-06T08:14:10.393698Z
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@avalos oh yes, i know they’re all proprietary and based on chromium, just saying that firefox is not the only option, and moreover not the tiny underdog against the big league players.Well if you don’t want chromium then yes it’s kinda the only option… except for its forksAbout Vivaldi tho, yes is proprietary… but…In fact only the front-end is proprietary. The browser interface. And you can inspect that interface to customise it with css, meaning the code is readable. So yes, you can’t fork vivaldi, BUT that doesn’t mean they’re not trustworthy. I mean they are to me, even a little more than Firefox who has a shitload of money (from Google itself) and “a few” bad decisions on their recordIt’s not all bad i know but it’s killing me that they’re kinda slowly ruining their own browser
(DIR) Post #AF9q9zBirs1057bU1Y by avalos@mstdn.social
2022-01-06T08:21:07Z
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@Guerin I'm aware of the situation with Vivaldi. Their modifications to Chromium are free, but the non-obfuscated UI is under an EULA that makes it proprietary. I'm not sure if you're even legally allowed to redistribute modified versions of the UI, and what other freedoms the EULA gives to users.
(DIR) Post #AF9r8CGlMR881lfieO by vae@programming.socks.town
2022-01-06T08:32:00.597843Z
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@thor @avalos bitcoin is hated because of how much energy and resources it consumes just to keep itself up while serving practically no purpose aside from speculation opportunity and making the rich richer (and generally a lot of people hate crypto because of how many scams, rug pulls and stupid shit like ape nfts is being shilled 24/7 by cryptobros who want to get rich quick)
(DIR) Post #AF9uy7i5rAmIoAuKhc by pch_xyz@misskey.seediqbale.xyz
2022-01-06T09:14:59.574Z
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@avalos@mstdn.social here is one example:The boss of Mozilla, the software organisation behind the Firefox browser, has spoken out about tech companies deplatforming Donald Trump - saying it's not going far enough.Here is another: RMS
(DIR) Post #AF9vQXYRMU0R4TwVHc by avalos@mstdn.social
2022-01-06T09:20:09Z
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@pch_xyz Well, that's the opinion of Mozilla's boss, I wouldn't cancel Mozilla because of that.Regarding RMS, it was something that got me really mad, I still don't get over what hateful people did to that poor old man, but we can't just cancel everyone who signed the hate letter.
(DIR) Post #AF9yNYX1ZW3v5zY5w0 by aral@mastodon.ar.al
2022-01-06T09:53:12Z
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@avalos Yep, it’s possible if you create the right legal structures and provide constitutional protection of the funding, thereby decoupling it from short-term political interference.
(DIR) Post #AF9ymsLd25oTnIIA8u by pch_xyz@misskey.seediqbale.xyz
2022-01-06T09:57:48.852Z
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@avalos@mstdn.social that I agree with you, I don't support cancel culture, but this is ironic.
(DIR) Post #AF9ymszKeTZXmQrs1o by thor@pl.thj.no
2022-01-06T09:57:49.222134Z
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@vae @avalos the environmental angle is relatively new. nobody was talking about that in 2016.
(DIR) Post #AF9yzDuqfXXGA3eakS by thor@pl.thj.no
2022-01-06T10:00:02.331428Z
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@vae @avalos i got recruited for a crypto startup that year. at that time, nobody was talking about the environment when it came to Bitcoin. the startup wasn’t Bitcoin-focused. the founder preferred proof of stake, not proof of work, but Bitcoin was a necessary part of dealing with crypto.
(DIR) Post #AF9z24tudwxP4PZqMa by avalos@mstdn.social
2022-01-06T10:00:32Z
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@thor @vae The world found out recently after some research was published and it caught the attention of the media.
(DIR) Post #AF9zCD9unKu7ZttUUi by thor@pl.thj.no
2022-01-06T10:02:22.748027Z
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@avalos @vae right.i don’t think even the guy who invented it thought about it. nor do i think the miners realised. it’s a bit like other human activities. the environmental impact only became apparent later.long after people began making a living on it.
(DIR) Post #AF9zN7QyQ6DV0Z4ew4 by thor@pl.thj.no
2022-01-06T10:04:21.018187Z
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@avalos @vae you do wonder if it makes a difference though. would doing something else than mining Bitcoin have a smaller ecological imprint? in some cases, no. it might have a bigger one.also, did Bitcoin cause the creation of more coal power plants? i’m not entirely convinced about that. if Bitcoin hadn’t used that energy, perhaps the same people who are mining Bitcoin would be doing something else that consumed the same amount of energy.
(DIR) Post #AF9zWKPdXHQRrlq9cu by thor@pl.thj.no
2022-01-06T10:06:01.980616Z
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@avalos @vae and if the media had angled it differently, maybe datacentres would’ve been the villain, not Bitcoin in particular. computing in general is basically to turn electricity into waste heat. there’s a joke that computers are 100% efficient at turning electricity into heat, but 0% efficient as mechanical machines, because all the energy fed into them turns into heat.
(DIR) Post #AF9zbhpht18rx3bAzg by thor@pl.thj.no
2022-01-06T10:07:00.314506Z
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@avalos @vae if you are in a cold climate and you mine Bitcoin and the heat from it is captured and fed to homes to keep them warm, is it still evil, or just practical?
(DIR) Post #AF9zeSUhN8wVFQ5JUO by thor@pl.thj.no
2022-01-06T10:07:29.641248Z
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@avalos @vae if you mine Bitcoin in Norway, where most electricity is hydroelectric, is it still evil?
(DIR) Post #AF9zeVLEmm9o4wgIeu by avalos@mstdn.social
2022-01-06T10:07:29Z
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@thor @vae It's not either Bitcoin or something else equally consuming, it's Bitcoin *plus* that something else. If I understand correctly, China had to make Bitcoin illegal recently because of several energetic shortages caused by excessive mining.
(DIR) Post #AF9zjA8p2Ewdm85xvk by jessica@mk.absturztau.be
2022-01-06T10:08:21.290Z
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@thor@pl.thj.no @avalos@mstdn.social @vae@programming.socks.town my power is nuclearNot bad
(DIR) Post #AF9zosIeHZ96B7PoOW by thor@pl.thj.no
2022-01-06T10:09:21.990846Z
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@avalos @vae right.what i find paradoxical about Bitcoin is how proof of work is a clever way of creating the scarcity required for a value token. you can’t use leafs from trees as a trading token. they’re too easy to get hold of. you need something that requires work to get at.so it’s clever. you managed to use computers to create value. i wish i had thought of that.but yes, it has its problems.
(DIR) Post #AF9ztd2uQIq6JjJuJk by avalos@mstdn.social
2022-01-06T10:10:13Z
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@thor @vae Data centers are also starting to get some hate as well, they consume tons of water and keep their total water consumption confidential. It's also a huge mess, but it's not necessarily about computers, but rather about AI in everything.
(DIR) Post #AF9zy9rcLhlxG5CMEK by avalos@mstdn.social
2022-01-06T10:11:02Z
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@thor @vae Depends on how the electricity is generated.
(DIR) Post #AF9zyRBNxSgayJZsu0 by mar77i@gleasonator.com
2022-01-06T10:11:06.610412Z
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Yes, you're guilty by "association" between you and people who use coal for the stuff.Using too much energy is only permissible if the elites do it, like using their private jets to go to that "climate" summit in Glasgow. Also, it's a great way to tell you that bitcoin is bad because it is its own thing independent from fiat currencies that governments have too much control over, without phrasing it this way.
(DIR) Post #AFA025XAOCOUzJVTEG by avalos@mstdn.social
2022-01-06T10:11:45Z
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@thor @vae No, but Bitcoin as a whole is mostly not in Norway.
(DIR) Post #AFA032Xuz33I0jJP5k by thor@pl.thj.no
2022-01-06T10:11:55.307273Z
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@avalos @vae the first time i heard of Bitcoin, i thought of it as yet another hacker toy. i didn’t view it as very significant. someone was toying with digital monopoly money. so i didn’t care. i could’ve mined 100 Bitcoin quite easily at the time, but i didn’t take it seriously. i could’ve been rich. i suspect a lot of nerds could have been.
(DIR) Post #AFA0APmwy1cM7grMTA by thor@pl.thj.no
2022-01-06T10:13:16.053880Z
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@avalos @vae “money” is an interest like “computers” is an interest. people who nerd out about money are called “traders” and they become rich, because they’re passionate about financial instruments and their technicalities.
(DIR) Post #AFA0B4bLE5h2hYkAZE by TheFerridge@fosstodon.org
2022-01-06T10:13:21Z
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@avalosSpot on
(DIR) Post #AFA0ItjxUVlTKjVOpk by mar77i@gleasonator.com
2022-01-06T10:14:48.322938Z
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Plain English take:Join megacorporation browsers or be guilty by association with the true grassroots power stemming from crypto.
(DIR) Post #AFA0QA6X33Cg73WmUi by thor@pl.thj.no
2022-01-06T10:16:06.340534Z
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@TheFerridge @avalos oh, browser enginessure, Chrome dominates.capitalism will disrupt it though. even the business people dislike Google now. i read an article by a YCombinator big name where he used Google Search and got trash results.somebody’s going to topple Google soon enough.it won’t be the free software movement though. it’ll be a startup. they might use free software as a lever, but it won’t be some open source project. i expect that to happen in the next 5 years.
(DIR) Post #AFA0USHjOYDLeooTse by NEETzsche@iddqd.social
2022-01-06T10:16:53.565254Z
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What is the point of boycotting cryptocurrencies, anyway?
(DIR) Post #AFA0VszNazPulfua8G by thor@pl.thj.no
2022-01-06T10:17:09.498279Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@TheFerridge @avalos AltaVista was once the best search engine. Google toppled it. Google is due to be toppled. you heard it from me first.
(DIR) Post #AFA0eDpfz3qbjILdHk by mar77i@gleasonator.com
2022-01-06T10:18:39.509483Z
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Apparently you get anal-raped by Greta with a strap-on if you don't boycott cryptocurrencies.
(DIR) Post #AFA0kCbJTZnfeBTtuC by NEETzsche@iddqd.social
2022-01-06T10:19:44.282024Z
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Sounds like they just don’t want people to be able to spend money without approval by woke megacorps.
(DIR) Post #AFA0pjYgMsV5JLt8vQ by vae@programming.socks.town
2022-01-06T10:20:43.017672Z
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@mar77i @avalos @thor most of bitcoin is controlled by exchanges which are controlled by the government. most of the mining capability is also controlled not by individuals, but by companies with access to tons of hardware and electricity, and those mining farms can't be unnoticed by local governments either. so even if they pretend they don't control 51% by splitting into separate organizations they only do that to keep the value of bitcoin up since if everyone realized that it's not as decentralized as people think it would dip hard.
(DIR) Post #AFA0sOIlr8oSFmiGX2 by xosem@toot.site
2022-01-06T06:31:01Z
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@aral @avalos "half a billion dollars a year"? 🤔 That's a lot, ain't it?
(DIR) Post #AFA0sOk4DeeBcRU44u by aral@mastodon.ar.al
2022-01-06T09:53:44Z
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@xosem @avalos Yep.
(DIR) Post #AFA0sP8sjOUqrP5sky by hyde@lazybear.social
2022-01-06T10:21:10Z
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@aralJust wondering what do you use ? Other ones are even worse 🤷♂️🤦♂️
(DIR) Post #AFA0sQTTmIZCzZjqV6 by mar77i@gleasonator.com
2022-01-06T10:21:13.663180Z
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See my point here, governmens == megacorps anyway these days. https://gleasonator.com/@mar77i/posts/AF9zyMaoNzghK9e6oy
(DIR) Post #AFA1040pAxHvdxyee0 by vae@programming.socks.town
2022-01-06T10:22:02.036589Z
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@thor @avalos perhaps if this electricity can't be used for anything else then it's okay
(DIR) Post #AFA1Ez2Dxp1iYAkKkS by mar77i@gleasonator.com
2022-01-06T10:25:18.550430Z
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Interesting take. If your goal is to have the price as low as possible, you'd need to tell as many people as possible that bad actors could theoretically plant fraudulent transactions.
(DIR) Post #AFA1GbK55yjFaVs0Su by vae@programming.socks.town
2022-01-06T10:25:35.042364Z
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@thor @avalos datacenters house servers that are hosting websites and services used by the people, even if electricity is not used 100% efficiently, it still provides some value for what it takes. bitcoin (and proof of work) is designed to waste huge amounts of electricity on calculations that are useless and don't provide anything other than verification that you wasted X amount of energy on that
(DIR) Post #AFA1O3UKm9RUy6DiaW by thor@pl.thj.no
2022-01-06T10:26:56.911058Z
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@vae @avalos ever look into what these people use tech for though?
(DIR) Post #AFA1RO0Mx3T9T6nD7Y by vae@programming.socks.town
2022-01-06T10:27:32.447719Z
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@mar77i @avalos @thor theoretically they can but practically if they do that it would be easily noticeable and will be in the big news the same hour, negating any profit you can derive from double spending
(DIR) Post #AFA1ZSsCjdcisrpGS0 by mar77i@gleasonator.com
2022-01-06T10:29:00.626677Z
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Hm. What was your point, then?
(DIR) Post #AFA1cesOZ3QMynRDEm by vae@programming.socks.town
2022-01-06T10:29:34.005043Z
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@thor @avalos in datacenters? or you're talking about people training AI there?
(DIR) Post #AFA1fPcLkjC8WYFJT6 by thor@pl.thj.no
2022-01-06T10:30:04.517434Z
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@vae @avalos i lost you guys
(DIR) Post #AFA1tnRtwcqcUSDZ1U by vae@programming.socks.town
2022-01-06T10:32:40.449230Z
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@mar77i @avalos @thor if the governments really wanted to disrupt or shut down crypto they still could, as it's not as decentralized as people think. it's also not anonymous (in case of bitcoin) while a lot of people think it is.
(DIR) Post #AFA2YabEci08Vl2EBU by mar77i@gleasonator.com
2022-01-06T10:40:03.037799Z
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Well it looks easy at first, and then become a very expensive whack-a-mole, taking tons of human resources making sure nobody is abusing cpu cycles for crypto in datacenters anywhere in the world. Wouldn't it make exchange rates explode like crazy, too?
(DIR) Post #AFA2aA2YLEUMiZYujQ by NEETzsche@iddqd.social
2022-01-06T10:40:20.039647Z
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Is this “boycott” responsible for the recent dip?
(DIR) Post #AFA2fa8AlSd55Im98i by NEETzsche@iddqd.social
2022-01-06T10:41:19.128885Z
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I’m not sure I see the connection, please give me a quick rundown
(DIR) Post #AFA2oAJE8dZpbe2UEK by mar77i@gleasonator.com
2022-01-06T10:42:51.889214Z
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I don't think it is, actually, as I can't imagine the market to be too much influenced by this globalist FUD.
(DIR) Post #AFA2pKjyq7l4FT6rvU by vae@programming.socks.town
2022-01-06T10:43:03.704354Z
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@mar77i @avalos @thor shutting down major exchanges and farms would be enough to make crypto unreachable for general public and too risky for investors
(DIR) Post #AFA2wMtzCapEyl913Q by NEETzsche@iddqd.social
2022-01-06T10:44:20.884478Z
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I seriously think the higher ups in globalism object to crypto for financial reasons and the people on the lower end of the totem pole, like OP, want it so that way they can cancel someone anybody who calls them a faggot on the computer
(DIR) Post #AFA3FHRrhcJ7ZE0cZk by mar77i@gleasonator.com
2022-01-06T10:47:46.106681Z
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So... nobody would have make a bet on it anyway? Your "higher ups" are known for their corruption and hand for shady business practices and I doubt the question is settled at all.
(DIR) Post #AFANWPEK1RFLhv7MWm by laufi@chaos.social
2022-01-06T13:52:04Z
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@inference @me @jbauer @alcinnz @avalos you're forgetting that privacy and security are only two factors in this game. If we lose Gecko, there will be only one relevant browser engine developed by Google setting internet standards in stone to their liking (as they are already trying, see FLOC). Mozilla is not only an important ally in fighting big tech. Without them, there would likely not be Let'sEncrypt, CommonVoice, Rust and a free software browser able to compete on the market.
(DIR) Post #AFANWUEVQBMfDwF50a by inference@pleroma.inferencium.net
2022-01-06T14:34:55.437791Z
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@laufi @me @jbauer @alcinnz @avalos I'm not talking about Mozilla, I'm talking specifically about Firefox.Also, does it really matter if Gecko is lost when it's poor security and huge loss of marketshare puts it at the barely relevant bottom, anyway?Competition is important, but the competitors must be at least equal; Firefox certainly is not.As for Rust and the other things you mentioned, I love Rust and Let's Encrypt; both are irrelevant to Mozilla playing dirty tricks with Firefox.
(DIR) Post #AFANYJGt9BPfo3E4uW by inference@pleroma.inferencium.net
2022-01-06T14:35:16.762700Z
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@laufi @me @jbauer @alcinnz @avalos I'm not talking about Mozilla, I'm talking specifically about Firefox.Also, does it really matter if Gecko is lost when its poor security and huge loss of marketshare puts it at the barely relevant bottom, anyway?Competition is important, but the competitors must be at least equal; Firefox certainly is not.As for Rust and the other things you mentioned, I love Rust and Let's Encrypt; both are irrelevant to Mozilla playing dirty tricks with Firefox.
(DIR) Post #AFAOIH3HjNx4FAmSO0 by me@social.catgirl.is
2022-01-06T14:40:35Z
1 likes, 1 repeats
@inference @avalos @laufi @jbauer @alcinnz I want Mozilla to step down from maintaining Firefox and for new stewards to take over the project.LetsEncrypt is third party and wouldn’t being away.Rust is maintained by the Rust foundation we don’t need Mozilla for that.Mozilla may have done good things but that doesn’t excuse them from the bad things they do. I won’t continue to give them more chances and enable them to
(DIR) Post #AFAOIJ30JOuoQsfGE4 by me@social.catgirl.is
2022-01-06T14:41:18Z
1 likes, 1 repeats
@inference @avalos @laufi @jbauer @alcinnz harm users and do bad things without backlash or consequences.
(DIR) Post #AFAOX8CKvrQz7x6BrU by inference@pleroma.inferencium.net
2022-01-06T14:46:15.444865Z
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@me @avalos @laufi @jbauer @alcinnz Firefox is going to be completely dead and irrelevant by the end of 2023 if this continues, and probably forgotten by 2025. I don't see how Firefox can be saved at this point.A new, independent browser should be developed, because Firefox's reputation and loss of trust likely means even a takeover of the project won't be enough.
(DIR) Post #AFAOkaZuj5qGuaXnOq by inference@pleroma.inferencium.net
2022-01-06T14:48:40.926620Z
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@me @alcinnz @avalos @jbauer @laufi I love Chromium, but I completely agree that relying on a single codebase is dangerous. Forks are not new codebades, hence the need for completely different ground-up development.
(DIR) Post #AFAOlUwt8rUfk3ivz6 by inference@pleroma.inferencium.net
2022-01-06T14:48:52.204896Z
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@me @alcinnz @avalos @jbauer @laufi I love Chromium, but I completely agree that relying on a single codebase is dangerous. Forks are not new codebases, hence the need for completely different ground-up development.
(DIR) Post #AFAP0SuV0Gz3lNk86C by me@social.catgirl.is
2022-01-06T14:47:42Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@inference @avalos @laufi @jbauer @alcinnz I had between Chromium and Waterfox but yeah a new browser is necessary. Would it be bad to base it on WebKit instead of Gecko or something completely custom?
(DIR) Post #AFAP0WoGVONFrCrCwC by inference@pleroma.inferencium.net
2022-01-06T14:51:33.209412Z
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@me @avalos @laufi @jbauer @alcinnz I'd like to see either Gecko be hardened and come in line with Chromium's security and design, or a new design which is in line from the initial version.It's likely easier to start from nothing, because it's likely such a large change that Gecko would have to be stripped of 90% of its code and rewritten, anyway.
(DIR) Post #AFAP8CLgSkLIiP96TQ by me@social.catgirl.is
2022-01-06T14:52:14Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@inference @avalos @laufi @jbauer @alcinnz to answer my question though do you think using WebKit would be bad?
(DIR) Post #AFAP8GBCDgKWb2GmgK by inference@pleroma.inferencium.net
2022-01-06T14:52:57.700075Z
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@me @avalos @laufi @jbauer @alcinnz No. GrapheneOS uses WebKit without issues. It seems to be more secure than Gecko, at least.
(DIR) Post #AFAPD5PNh6KydcCpns by inference@pleroma.inferencium.net
2022-01-06T14:53:50.836346Z
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@me @alcinnz @avalos @jbauer @laufi Chromium has a WebKit implementation, which is what GrapheneOS uses for WebView.
(DIR) Post #AFAPopwFev19fBa7ua by me@social.catgirl.is
2022-01-06T14:55:18Z
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@inference @avalos @laufi @jbauer @alcinnz if you were to build a browser from the ground up what would you do when writing a rendering engine. I might be interesting in making a proof of concept. I would likely use Java and compile it to native code with GraalVM for performance optimizations. Java being memory-safe and OOP would be a good language to do this type of project in although finding the right graphics lib may
(DIR) Post #AFAPoqUHcOEvMjVIxM by me@social.catgirl.is
2022-01-06T14:56:18Z
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@inference @avalos @laufi @jbauer @alcinnz be somewhat of a challenge. I don’t like Rust I’ve had too many negative interactions with their community to use it. I’ve been actively harassed by many of their contributors just because I prefer to develop in C.
(DIR) Post #AFAPoxEaX8qQI5DMxs by inference@pleroma.inferencium.net
2022-01-06T15:00:39.337093Z
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@me @avalos @laufi @jbauer @alcinnz It should not be written in memory unsafe languages, because web browsers are the largest attack surface for most users. Almost all web content is public and untrusted code from random strangers, so memory safety and sandboxing is absolutely mandatory (Firefox fails hard at both, and Chromium fails at the memory unsafe language only). Firefox code is partially being rewritten in Rust, which is a good thing, but it's not security critical parts, which makes it borderline pointless. Chromium is rewriting in Go, and seems to be important parts or possible the entire browser, which is the way to go, although it will take a long time.
(DIR) Post #AFAPvDxLH7BbtF8aae by inference@pleroma.inferencium.net
2022-01-06T15:01:49.303743Z
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@me @alcinnz @avalos @jbauer @laufi Ideally, it would have an option to disable compiling to native code, like GrapheneOS' Vanadium allows.Disable JIT:
(DIR) Post #AFAQi03FlEiqxHA0dk by me@social.catgirl.is
2022-01-06T15:01:52Z
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@inference @avalos @laufi @jbauer @alcinnz What are your thoughts on writing a rendering engine in Java if compiled with GraalVM (as we’d want to have native speed where possible)? Is that a project you’d be interested in collaborating on?
(DIR) Post #AFAQi6ByvhGm05I44u by inference@pleroma.inferencium.net
2022-01-06T15:10:37.559815Z
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@me @avalos @laufi @jbauer @alcinnz That would a very long time, and we'd likely have to copy parts from an existing browser such as Chromium or Firefox in order to have a chance at completing the project before the decade ends.The issue I have with people and companies complaining about Google etc aren't actually doing anything about this issue. Google Pixels being the most secure, private, and open, Android phones when running GrapheneOS is a great example; unless other phone manufacturers bother to implement these simple features, such as custom OS signing key support, it'll never happen. GrapheneOS is literally waiting for other device manufacturers to get in line, but they aren't. Fairphone and Linux phones are perfect examples of poor design and lack of care; all people care about is the "privacy" aspect, when lack of security negates that privacy due to being easily breached.If I could fix this by developing a custom browser, I would, but who's going to scrutinise the code as much as Chromium, or even Firefox, has been?
(DIR) Post #AFAQjnyrbvlA65y5Lc by inference@pleroma.inferencium.net
2022-01-06T15:10:58.525347Z
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@me @avalos @laufi @jbauer @alcinnz That would take a very long time, and we'd likely have to copy parts from an existing browser such as Chromium or Firefox in order to have a chance at completing the project before the decade ends.The issue I have with people and companies complaining about Google etc aren't actually doing anything about this issue. Google Pixels being the most secure, private, and open, Android phones when running GrapheneOS is a great example; unless other phone manufacturers bother to implement these simple features, such as custom OS signing key support, it'll never happen. GrapheneOS is literally waiting for other device manufacturers to get in line, but they aren't. Fairphone and Linux phones are perfect examples of poor design and lack of care; all people care about is the "privacy" aspect, when lack of security negates that privacy due to being easily breached.If I could fix this by developing a custom browser, I would, but who's going to scrutinise the code as much as Chromium, or even Firefox, has been?
(DIR) Post #AFAbaSEQCdzXX7zNZ2 by me@social.catgirl.is
2022-01-06T15:06:01Z
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@inference @avalos @laufi @jbauer @alcinnz assuming I got a proof of concept ready do you know people who’d be interested in collaborating on the engine? Obviously it’s more than a one person job to maintain an entire web browser.
(DIR) Post #AFAbaShUSZFAzHaasC by alcinnz@floss.social
2022-01-06T16:28:27Z
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@me @inference @avalos @laufi @jbauer I'm progressing alright alone. It'd be a different story if I chose to support JS...Though I do need help not to sacrifice internationalization whilst implementing the vital feature of text selection!
(DIR) Post #AFAbaTAYiUUoRRBoBM by me@social.catgirl.is
2022-01-06T16:29:23Z
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@alcinnz @inference @avalos @laufi @jbauer I would look for a Haskell based i18n library which lets you create a text file of strings in each language.
(DIR) Post #AFAbaTbV6K2xmznKAy by alcinnz@floss.social
2022-01-06T16:49:31Z
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@me @inference @avalos @laufi @jbauer Yeah, I have. Ended up utilizing Haskell's pattern matching. But that's not the issue.The issue is rendering that internationalized text, and having text selection behaving correctly around it! There's C libraries I can use for the rendering side (Harfbuzz, FreeType, FontConfig). But the one for text selection (Pango) doesn't want the burden of webpage layout.
(DIR) Post #AFAbaXrbGPIl05MEpE by inference@pleroma.inferencium.net
2022-01-06T17:12:29.775384Z
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@alcinnz @me @avalos @laufi @jbauer It has begun (in Rust, not Go as I stated):"we’ll be exploring whether we can use a memory safe language for parts of Chrome in the future. The leading contender is Rust, invented by our friends at Mozilla. This is (largely) compile-time safe; that is, the Rust compiler spots mistakes with pointers before the code even gets to your device, and thus there’s no performance penalty. Yet there are open questions about whether we can make C++ and Rust work well enough together. Even if we started writing new large components in Rust tomorrow, we’d be unlikely to eliminate a significant proportion of security vulnerabilities for many years. And can we make the language boundary clean enough that we can write parts of existing components in Rust? We don’t know yet. We’ve started to land limited, non-user-facing Rust experiments in the Chromium source code tree, but we’re not yet using it in production versions of Chrome - we remain in an experimental phase."
(DIR) Post #AFAbdgUddRnedL79bk by inference@pleroma.inferencium.net
2022-01-06T17:13:07.485632Z
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@alcinnz @avalos @jbauer @laufi @me There's already Rust in Chromium source code. Nice.
(DIR) Post #AFAbtCPbFDNByI9iJU by alcinnz@floss.social
2022-01-06T17:13:55Z
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@inference @avalos @laufi @me @jbauer I was pointed to this announcement. Sounds like they're using plenty of Servo-pioneered techniques!
(DIR) Post #AFAbtGHwpbd3zibewS by inference@pleroma.inferencium.net
2022-01-06T17:15:54.524781Z
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@alcinnz @avalos @laufi @me @jbauer Chromium has rock solid security in practically everything except memory safety, which is its major weakness.In case you're interested, here's my favourite well referenced article on Chromium vs Firefox security:https://madaidans-insecurities.github.io/firefox-chromium.html
(DIR) Post #AFAc79Gzi9SQI5mYUa by me@social.catgirl.is
2022-01-06T17:16:14Z
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@alcinnz @inference @avalos @laufi @jbauer As much as I dislike Rust due to its community at least they’re doing something to reduce the amount of security bugs in Chromium.
(DIR) Post #AFAc7DYrle87agAsu8 by inference@pleroma.inferencium.net
2022-01-06T17:18:25.654559Z
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@me @alcinnz @avalos @laufi @jbauer I'd rather spend more time working on practical solutions, than involving myself in programming language wars. These types of wars, including console wars, do nothing but harm and hinder everyone.Better memory safe Rust than memory unsafe C++, even if you hate Rust.
(DIR) Post #AFAcBvYy71iHDYT5bU by fabrice@fosstodon.org
2022-01-06T17:17:17Z
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@inference @avalos @laufi @me @jbauer @alcinnz clearly you don't know what you're talking about if you believe that "starting from nothing" is easier than incremental improvement of a web runtime.
(DIR) Post #AFAcBzD8Y8cuX0Hi88 by inference@pleroma.inferencium.net
2022-01-06T17:19:18.814316Z
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@fabrice @avalos @laufi @me @jbauer @alcinnz It's not only a runtime, it's the entire browser.
(DIR) Post #AFAgLaYzRWnOniLB1U by me@social.catgirl.is
2022-01-06T17:28:22Z
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@fabrice @inference @avalos @laufi @jbauer @alcinnz it’s about the reputational damage of Mozilla. People don’t trust them. It’s not about what makes more technical sense at this point but having our project completely separated. I also want the engine to be completely BSD 3-Clause licensed rather than mixed licensing or the highly restrictive GPL-3 license.
(DIR) Post #AFAgLb3parSwLMlo5w by fabrice@fosstodon.org
2022-01-06T17:29:55Z
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@me @inference @avalos @laufi @jbauer @alcinnz Mozilla uses the MPL 2.0 license which is not as restrictive as the GPL-3, while not as permissive as BSD. Can you at least get basic facts right?
(DIR) Post #AFAgLbUlyh15gvNK5Y by me@social.catgirl.is
2022-01-06T17:34:04Z
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@fabrice @inference @avalos @laufi @jbauer @alcinnz I’m referring to Chromium’s mixed licensing first. Second I’m against restrictive licenses. It’s not fair to call something free and open source software when it’s only free to other open source projects. I like less restrictive licenses like MIT and BSD because they only require a copyright notice rather than having to license my project too as GPL. The whole point of open source software is it’s not restrictive yet we see a lot of licenses that restrict what you can do and how you can license your own projects when using their software. I license all of my projects under the BSD license. GPL was written out of hatred of closed source software and was written to the point where it bans closed source software if you use theirs. It is unreasonably restrictive. They are free to use whatever license they want and I am free to criticize their choice of license.
(DIR) Post #AFAgLbtwT79Kwz9QJs by fabrice@fosstodon.org
2022-01-06T17:43:15Z
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@me @inference @avalos @laufi @jbauer @alcinnz Of course you are entitled to your opinion but people choosing copyleft licenses such as the GPL also have good reasons to do so. In my case it's not hatred, it's about ensuring that people that benefit from the software also contribute back.Large projects like gecko or blink re-use various components so the licensing situation is usually more complex than small projects, and re-licensing impossible in practice.
(DIR) Post #AFAgLcKAta8KGLQNCy by me@social.catgirl.is
2022-01-06T17:46:03Z
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@fabrice @inference @avalos @laufi @jbauer @alcinnz personally I don’t use third party components for my software projects unless they’re also BSD licensed.
(DIR) Post #AFAgLgDERKxMJyCswS by inference@pleroma.inferencium.net
2022-01-06T18:05:50.880070Z
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@me @fabrice @avalos @laufi @jbauer @alcinnz The exact reason I licence well over 90% of my open source code with the MIT License is because GPL goes against what it was designed to do, which give freedom.What makes people hate something is forcing them to do/use it; in this case, GPL is forcing people to use the same license. I love open source, but I want people to have the choice of what they do with it. Closed source software such as Microsoft Edge, do have exclusive advantages, and everyone has a different use case and threat model.I encourage people to open source forks of my code, I do not force them. Forcing is a dictatorship, and isn't that what free software is supposed to protect us from?
(DIR) Post #AFAgMyjb3qNc3VxrUm by inference@pleroma.inferencium.net
2022-01-06T18:06:07.815779Z
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@me @fabrice @avalos @laufi @jbauer @alcinnz The exact reason I licence well over 90% of my open source code with the MIT License is because GPL goes against what it was designed to do, which is give freedom.What makes people hate something is forcing them to do/use it; in this case, GPL is forcing people to use the same license. I love open source, but I want people to have the choice of what they do with it. Closed source software such as Microsoft Edge, do have exclusive advantages, and everyone has a different use case and threat model.I encourage people to open source forks of my code, I do not force them. Forcing is a dictatorship, and isn't that what free software is supposed to protect us from?
(DIR) Post #AFAgi1CP5oEjmTTHRA by me@social.catgirl.is
2022-01-06T18:09:24Z
1 likes, 1 repeats
@inference @avalos @laufi @jbauer @fabrice @alcinnz EXACTLY! GPL pushed open source software by force which sucks. Software freedom means freedom for all, not freedom for projects they approve of. And just like everyone else programmers have to eat too. Closed source software is thus a part of lift. It's not going away anytime soon!
(DIR) Post #AFAh5u3lHwJAaXon56 by fabrice@fosstodon.org
2022-01-06T18:09:22Z
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@inference @avalos @laufi @me @jbauer @alcinnz The GPL was designed to give freedom to *users* of the software. It's a good fit for that.You may not like the constraints it imposes to developers, but please don't make the GPL be what it's not.
(DIR) Post #AFAh5ubnFPWwI5jy7s by me@social.catgirl.is
2022-01-06T18:11:42Z
1 likes, 1 repeats
@fabrice @inference @avalos @laufi @jbauer @alcinnz The GPL arguably takes away more freedom than it gives. You can make your open source program accessible without forcing forks to do the same. It doesn't take away freedom from the user because software is free to begin with. It does take away freedom from developers and stifle innovation and creativity.
(DIR) Post #AFAh7DzgetluheXh7A by inference@pleroma.inferencium.net
2022-01-06T18:14:04.578958Z
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@me @avalos @laufi @jbauer @fabrice @alcinnz Closed source software does have a place, even if you do use emotion over logic. For example, if someone was in danger and required use of my code as a fork to protect themselves, I don't want to tell them they can't close source the code to obscure it from their adversaries.Security through obscurity does not work on its own, and every knowledgeable cybersecurity person will know that, but it does add an extra layer onto what is already secure; sometimes, it's not about security, but obscuring motives behind having the software, such as hiding a "help me" message when something specific is triggered.I have a game which I'm developing as an open source project, which I licensed under GPLv3 because I wanted to force the sharing of it due to it being an educational experiment and I believe in freedom to participate, but I would never do that if it was a game I intended to market.
(DIR) Post #AFAhGbVgazaWF8yx9c by fabrice@fosstodon.org
2022-01-06T18:14:41Z
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@me @inference @avalos @laufi @jbauer @alcinnz GPL doesn't take anything away from devs since I'm free to choose whatever license I want to use for my software.BSD/MIT/Apache absolutely take away freedom from users since they can't obtain the potentially modified source code of products they bought.
(DIR) Post #AFAhGfIMWTJ5yymMwS by inference@pleroma.inferencium.net
2022-01-06T18:16:10.496353Z
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@fabrice @me @avalos @laufi @jbauer @alcinnz They have a choice to not buy the software, and take the upstream to fork it themselves.
(DIR) Post #AFAhLuNDtBIwCAYL8i by me@social.catgirl.is
2022-01-06T18:16:31Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@fabrice @inference @avalos @laufi @jbauer @alcinnz Users don't need source code though they need a binary. Only developers do which I may or may not choose to provide. I like to play games on my Nintendo Switch, I need the game but don't care at all about the source code. If the game plays as expected nothing else really matters :)
(DIR) Post #AFAhQffVzODi2KNc6i by me@social.catgirl.is
2022-01-06T18:16:46Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@inference @avalos @laufi @jbauer @fabrice @alcinnz THIS ^^^
(DIR) Post #AFArX5wODoZunUyUTY by avalos@mstdn.social
2022-01-06T20:11:13Z
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@me @inference@pleroma.inferencium.net @laufi @jbauer @alcinnz I don't want Mozilla to step down. The “bad” things they do aren't that bad to begin with, you and many more are being oversensitive.
(DIR) Post #AFArlBTCSeXq042WJs by avalos@mstdn.social
2022-01-06T20:13:46Z
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@me @inference@pleroma.inferencium.net @laufi @jbauer @alcinnz You're free not to like Rust. The community can indeed be toxic, but I don't care, it's an excelent technology that doesn't deserve being ignored because of the community around it.
(DIR) Post #AFAsE6M6YVEqXHVfgu by me@social.catgirl.is
2022-01-06T20:18:57Z
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@avalos @laufi @jbauer @alcinnz why would I use a good language with a bad community when I can use a good language with a good community instead? It turns out that rust is not the only programming language 😉@inference you got untagged somehow 😆
(DIR) Post #AFAsHeVG3HHRJNU5VA by avalos@mstdn.social
2022-01-06T20:19:38Z
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@me @fabrice @inference@pleroma.inferencium.net @laufi @jbauer @alcinnz That's on you, but the free software movement makes it very clear that you need the source code in order for the software freedoms to be effective. Otherwise, having only a binary makes it very difficult to exercise your freedoms. You can like what the game is doing right now, but what if later that changes?
(DIR) Post #AFAsNCsBh21LM6rG08 by avalos@mstdn.social
2022-01-06T20:20:38Z
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@me @fabrice @laufi @jbauer @alcinnz Sure, you can reverse engineer the binary and patch it, but that's not always easy and you're probably not legally allowed to share your hacks.
(DIR) Post #AFAt1cI0cA6PlbCkWu by avalos@mstdn.social
2022-01-06T20:27:56Z
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@me @laufi @jbauer @alcinnz @inference@pleroma.inferencium.net You're free to use whatever language you like, but I personally see Rust as a perfect fit for a web browser over anything else, because it was literally designed for Firefox.I don't care about community, as long as I don't go around preaching that everyone uses C and then complaining about being harassed by them, if that's what happened to you.
(DIR) Post #AFAtHfSiaOseEwrqrY by alcinnz@floss.social
2022-01-06T20:11:58Z
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@inference @avalos @laufi @me @jbauer @fabrice My stance is that those who run a program on their computer deserves software freedom over it, but that doesn't mean I believe all programs must have their sourcecode publicly available online! This is the same line GPL draws, though AGPL is a little more strict to include use over the network.
(DIR) Post #AFAtHoyFEYRjjKgeki by inference@pleroma.inferencium.net
2022-01-06T20:30:48.835960Z
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@alcinnz @avalos @laufi @me @jbauer @fabrice I'm all for open source and don't like or promote closed source. I also agree with the freedom aspect. However, GPL licenses are just as much of a dictator as closed source licenses, which is the issue I have with them.Another negative thing about GPL is it prevents secure and private software from running on locked down phones. GrapheneOS would never have been available for Google Pixel if it wasn't permissively licensed.
(DIR) Post #AFAtf5iX8WHgKTQz6O by inference@pleroma.inferencium.net
2022-01-06T20:35:03.133717Z
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@me @avalos @laufi @jbauer @alcinnz Because you're relying on people rather than the factual technology. What if the community for the best technology on Earth turns bad? Would you drop it?What if Java had a terrible community by next week? Would you drop it?People can, are most times are, assholes. Don't allow other people to ruin factual and logical things for you; this isn't exclusive to programming languages, either.
(DIR) Post #AFAthV4JqrFBXBlzFI by fabrice@fosstodon.org
2022-01-06T20:33:46Z
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@inference @alcinnz @laufi @me @jbauer @avalos Can you explain why GrapheneOS could not exist if "something" (what is the "it" in your sentence?) wasn't permissively licensed?
(DIR) Post #AFAthYxjNILnbuimX2 by inference@pleroma.inferencium.net
2022-01-06T20:35:30.712392Z
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@fabrice @alcinnz @laufi @me @jbauer @avalos If GrapheneOS was not permissively licensed.
(DIR) Post #AFAtrcJDmqiUsyZF1U by avalos@mstdn.social
2022-01-06T20:37:20Z
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@me @laufi @jbauer @alcinnz Also, I still can't see @inference@pleroma.inferencium.net toots… who blocked who?
(DIR) Post #AFAtsfoKFlDe2GcV1s by inference@pleroma.inferencium.net
2022-01-06T20:37:30.342520Z
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@fabrice @alcinnz @avalos @jbauer @laufi @me "In some cases, licensing is also an issue. GrapheneOS is permissively licensed and is usable for building devices with an immutable root of trust. GPLv3 is deliberately incompatible with these kinds of locked down devices, unlike GPLv2 code such as the Linux kernel. This means GrapheneOS can't include GPLv3 code without forbidding use cases we want to support. GPLv3 is no problem for our own usage, but we don't want to forbid using GrapheneOS as a replacement for the Android Open Source Project in locked down devices."Source:https://grapheneos.org/faq#bundled-apps
(DIR) Post #AFAu7hK4ugnn4LdVHE by inference@pleroma.inferencium.net
2022-01-06T20:40:13.434990Z
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@avalos @me @laufi @jbauer @alcinnz I didn't block you.Again, I'm having federation issues like a lot of other people.
(DIR) Post #AFAuAgFXMO5qbpvzNo by me@social.catgirl.is
2022-01-06T20:37:46Z
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@inference @alcinnz @laufi @jbauer @avalos yes I would drop it :) specifically the targeted harassment of following C developers around on Twitter is what pushed me over the edge with them.
(DIR) Post #AFAuAkA0os3CjrNdKK by inference@pleroma.inferencium.net
2022-01-06T20:40:46.516426Z
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@me @alcinnz @laufi @jbauer @avalos I think that's insane, but okay.
(DIR) Post #AFAuPh9MILKpkHChVY by fabrice@fosstodon.org
2022-01-06T20:41:10Z
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@inference @alcinnz @laufi @me @jbauer @avalos Well, again this is the system working as intended, people just need to make choices. That doesn't mean they are right or wrong.
(DIR) Post #AFAuPlrokzH6NK2GMS by inference@pleroma.inferencium.net
2022-01-06T20:43:28.374163Z
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@fabrice @alcinnz @laufi @me @jbauer @avalos The system is working against me in this situation.When Fairphone and other phone manufacturers start caring about their devices and customers, I'll consider using them. Thanks to them not caring, I'm stuck with Google Pixel devices (most secure phones by far), and require permissively licensed GrapheneOS to have the hardened OS I want.Thanks to GPL, this isn't possible, but MIT and BSD etc are my saviours.
(DIR) Post #AFAuYfjOwGWzx4LKsa by alcinnz@floss.social
2022-01-06T20:42:23Z
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@inference @laufi @me @jbauer @fabrice @avalos Hmmmm, being firmly against such locked down devices I like having that clause on my software.Stating in legal language "THIS IS NOT DRM! Don't litigate as if it were!"
(DIR) Post #AFAuYjVMuNgPehoBYu by inference@pleroma.inferencium.net
2022-01-06T20:45:06.020058Z
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@alcinnz @laufi @me @jbauer @fabrice @avalos So, you want me, with a high threat model, to use an extremely insecure phone with no immutable root of trust, an unlocked bootloader, and have no safety of my own life, just because you're a fan of GPL?No, thanks.
(DIR) Post #AFAuqE4yUGG5P2nvYe by fabrice@fosstodon.org
2022-01-06T20:44:29Z
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@inference @alcinnz @laufi @me @jbauer @avalos How is the Fairphone so different than a Pixel? Don't they ship something which is basically AOSP?
(DIR) Post #AFAuqI1ZopuvdfFGoi by inference@pleroma.inferencium.net
2022-01-06T20:48:16.712622Z
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@fabrice @alcinnz @laufi @me @jbauer @avalos A link to a post of mine explaining this:https://pleroma.inferencium.net/notice/AF63Ed1iIH926bUpRA
(DIR) Post #AFAuyIRy7Vk7H9PLoe by inference@pleroma.inferencium.net
2022-01-06T20:49:43.483188Z
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@fabrice @alcinnz @avalos @jbauer @laufi @me A post I made following the previous one:https://pleroma.inferencium.net/notice/AF864Ic21j5k4hAb2G
(DIR) Post #AFAvTWa3dKYC4s59Cy by fabrice@fosstodon.org
2022-01-06T20:50:40Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@inference @alcinnz @laufi @me @jbauer @avalos Thanks. I don't understand either why Fairphone would not allow custom OS signing key support. Maybe just an oversight on their side (they are friendly to other ROMs like /e/).
(DIR) Post #AFAvTbrxyAqYTrV1Jg by inference@pleroma.inferencium.net
2022-01-06T20:55:22.337276Z
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@fabrice @alcinnz @laufi @me @jbauer @avalos LineageOS uses unsafe debug builds, and /e/ is based on LineageOS, so it may suffer the same fate.Either way, neither of these OSes can use verified boot due to the inability to relock the bootloader with custom OS signing keys.Most Android phones are as secure as Google Pixel, but ONLY when using the stock OS. Custom OSes such as GrapheneOS weaken the security unless used on a phone with the features required, which, unfortunately, is only Google Pixel, currently.
(DIR) Post #AFAx2WrMgfoB26Qt8a by mathew@mastodon.social
2022-01-06T21:05:11Z
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@me @inference @avalos @laufi @jbauer @alcinnz The Git community put me off wanting to use Git for a long time. Rust is kinda the same way.
(DIR) Post #AFAx2XJN0YD4QxXFmy by me@social.catgirl.is
2022-01-06T21:07:45Z
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@mathew @inference @avalos @laufi @jbauer @alcinnz I’ve slowly been replacing every tool which has a bad community behind it. Maybe I’ll write a Git-alternative one day 🤔🤔
(DIR) Post #AFAx2b8Ao7d8HOKMtM by inference@pleroma.inferencium.net
2022-01-06T21:12:53.707390Z
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@me @mathew @avalos @laufi @jbauer @alcinnz And then you're left with nothing but an insecure, bloated, unoptimised programming language just because everyone thinks its "cool".Every serious security, privacy, and generally good technology group is toxic. If you want to know what toxic is, enter the GrapheneOS community on Matrix and ask some questions. I refuse to not use that OS just because the community around it is toxic and opinionated; that's completely illogical and doesn't do my any favours.
(DIR) Post #AFAx4FgPWLciL789Q0 by inference@pleroma.inferencium.net
2022-01-06T21:13:13.952276Z
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@me @mathew @avalos @laufi @jbauer @alcinnz And then you're left with nothing but an insecure, bloated, unoptimised programming language just because everyone thinks it's "cool".Every serious security, privacy, and generally good technology group is toxic. If you want to know what toxic is, enter the GrapheneOS community on Matrix and ask some questions. I refuse to not use that OS just because the community around it is toxic and opinionated; that's completely illogical and doesn't do my any favours.
(DIR) Post #AFAxdYs8AUfDzMRv60 by me@social.catgirl.is
2022-01-06T21:17:57Z
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@inference @alcinnz @mathew @laufi @jbauer @avalos Not necessarily the C# and Java communities are some of the most inclusive communities I've seen. Guess what, their contributors don't go around Twitter harassing C developers :)
(DIR) Post #AFAxdcgvy45HpnF2CO by inference@pleroma.inferencium.net
2022-01-06T21:19:35.640461Z
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@me @alcinnz @mathew @laufi @jbauer @avalos I'm talking about if they changed to being toxic.
(DIR) Post #AFAxxmFW8qsjGk1n0a by me@social.catgirl.is
2022-01-06T21:21:07Z
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@inference @alcinnz @mathew @laufi @jbauer @avalos I would switch to another language, my programming skills are easily transferable to any language.
(DIR) Post #AFAxxq9dceYVNfJ9Oq by inference@pleroma.inferencium.net
2022-01-06T21:23:14.787641Z
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@me @alcinnz @mathew @laufi @jbauer @avalos You aren't understanding what I'm saying.If you rely on other people to be nice, you're simply at their mercy to be, meaning you could be running from place to place for the rest of your life, just leaving everything good behind.That's living in fear.
(DIR) Post #AFAySYGYBJPMsTBYW0 by me@social.catgirl.is
2022-01-06T21:26:14Z
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@inference @alcinnz @mathew @laufi @jbauer @avalos Okay so, let's say I completely ignored that the Rust community is run by complete dick-wads. It was initially designed by Mozilla which I'm distancing myself from anyways. If couldn't use C# or Java my next choice would be Golang followed by Haskell (there would be a bit of a learning curve).I don't rely on people to be nice, I do distance myself from languages who have people stalking C developers to promote there language. Oracle and Microsoft don't need to engage in harassment to get more developers.
(DIR) Post #AFAyScWeLOfA5YkTAG by inference@pleroma.inferencium.net
2022-01-06T21:28:48.451091Z
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@me @alcinnz @mathew @laufi @jbauer @avalos Again, that's not the language, that's the people supporting it.You're literally missing out on one of the best memory safe and high performance programming languages just because some people think they're better than you.In the IT arena, everyone thinks they're better than you. They aren't going to stop just because you decide to leave; they'd actually like that.I see zero logic in your thought process for this.
(DIR) Post #AFBBUXieU4SXAIbqkK by mathew@mastodon.social
2022-01-06T22:56:01Z
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@me @inference @avalos @laufi @jbauer @alcinnz Back in the day, Netscape had a project to rewrite Netscape Navigator in Java. https://www.cnet.com/news/netscape-sharpens-javagator-plans/It was canned, though. https://www.cnet.com/news/javagator-down-not-out/
(DIR) Post #AFBBUYEuY8GOmLhc1o by me@social.catgirl.is
2022-01-06T22:57:34Z
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@mathew @inference @avalos @laufi @jbauer @alcinnz I want to write a proof of concept web browser in Java. Would be cool if it caught on.
(DIR) Post #AFBBUYhyo3W2EVIpKy by avalos@mstdn.social
2022-01-06T23:54:50Z
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@me @mathew @inference@pleroma.inferencium.net @laufi @jbauer @alcinnz Wish you luck with that!
(DIR) Post #AFBCaGxNoqDOrwnPAu by mathew@mastodon.social
2022-01-06T22:14:23Z
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@inference @alcinnz @laufi @me @jbauer @avalos People aren't always purely logical.In terms of strict logic, the soundness of a statement or idea has no connection to its source.In reality, I'm going to look very skeptically at anything neo-Nazis promote (to pick an example you might agree with).If you find yourself able to adopt ideas unhesitatingly even when their proponents are awful, you're a better person than me.
(DIR) Post #AFBCaKr9JxbaxluU0u by inference@pleroma.inferencium.net
2022-01-07T00:07:04.694204Z
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@mathew @alcinnz @laufi @me @jbauer @avalos I refuse to use emotion in anything other than relationships with people.Emotion has no place in science, logic, fact, evidence, proof.If you're happy, the sky is blue. If you're sad, the sky is blue. Emotion doesn't change fact.A programming language is good or bad depending on how it works; the logic, not how it feels, especially not because of some supporters or haters.
(DIR) Post #AFBH6Pz2C2tLwq9Tfc by epi@ihatebeinga.live
2022-01-06T08:01:18.678778Z
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@feld @aral @avalos GNU Emacs
(DIR) Post #AFBH6QSoPKi9RC5G5I by feld@bikeshed.party
2022-01-07T00:57:43.178774Z
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@epi EMACS has more users than Firefox has ever had? Big doubt
(DIR) Post #AFBOCszHy8cpJrIn0S by smoldesu@mastodon.social
2022-01-07T02:17:19Z
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@avalos boy if you think browser engines are the root of all evil, wait till you see what the banks have done
(DIR) Post #AFC31Eu0lCwVvtOmSe by neko@cum.desupost.soy
2022-01-07T09:54:37.131480Z
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@icedquinn @tejr @avalos I was about to bring up their past. Mozilla has done plenty of shit in the past, the CEO is drunk
(DIR) Post #AFC35Luscm9cqQlZia by neko@cum.desupost.soy
2022-01-07T09:55:21.473887Z
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@avalos @snaums There was nothing wrong with the previous UI, even to regular users
(DIR) Post #AFC3MCfmFFzh6CjllA by snaums@toot.kif.rocks
2022-01-05T20:11:35Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@avalos Videoconferencing is still (afaik) not on par with chrome. Firefox loses, because in every bloody manual you read "please use chrome for best video/audio/gubbins", and they are right.And maybe I can try and revert some UI changes back to what I liked, but they will break it again next release. And they will tell me, that this firefox is now the most secure, even more secure, than the previous one.Are Mozilla the devil. No. Of course not. But they are not the good people either imho.
(DIR) Post #AFCX0gus7KYT9SSKVk by mathew@mastodon.social
2022-01-07T14:54:21Z
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@inference @alcinnz @laufi @me @jbauer @avalos Programming is generally a social activity. Unless you're going to isolate yourself, not refer to Stack Overflow etc, the behavior of people matters.
(DIR) Post #AFCX0hLSWTp2TutYx6 by me@social.catgirl.is
2022-01-07T15:28:03Z
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@mathew @inference @alcinnz @laufi @jbauer @avalos yup and the current scenario for me is Microsoft and Oracle maintain kind communities and don’t engage in Twitter harassment whereas Rust does neither.I don’t care if it’s a good technology because there are 100s of technologies that can replace it in an instant. If GraalVM compiled Java doesn’t fit my use case, I would look at Google’s Golang as a first choice. Outside of if my employer requires it for a project I have zero reason to use Rust or interact with its community.
(DIR) Post #AFCX0ll86yjWAgw7WK by inference@pleroma.inferencium.net
2022-01-07T15:30:39.611566Z
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@me @mathew @alcinnz @laufi @jbauer @avalos If you want to allow other people to destroy your life and dictate what you can and cannot do, based on their behaviour, that's your choice and I won't stop you; I, however, will never bow to such toxicity and will use the best tool for the job, regardless of the mentality of the people surrounding it.
(DIR) Post #AFCXKPL1BNYoQQ5SvA by inference@pleroma.inferencium.net
2022-01-07T15:34:12.907921Z
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@me @alcinnz @avalos @jbauer @laufi @mathew What's ironic about your thought process is the FOSS community is hellbent on pushing out any non-FOSS products, whether hardware of software.If I go by your ideology, I'd be using some of the most insecure devices and lacking software required to protect myself. I'm an open source advocate, but I require the use of closed source products due to the FOSS community going against their own ideals and not developing hardware of software to make it possible to stop using non-FOSS.The FOSS community is one of the most toxic on the planet, yet I'm still an advocate for it and most of my software is FOSS.
(DIR) Post #AFCYHBWMCJpcepPyVc by me@social.catgirl.is
2022-01-07T15:36:22Z
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@inference @alcinnz @mathew @laufi @avalos @jbauer rust isn’t necessarily the best tool for the job yet it’s community seems to worship it and Mozilla. There are 100s of languages with similar properties to Rust. No one is dictating my life. I’ll also add Java and C# have much larger communities around the world so I have more spaces to go to if Twitter and their Discord is toxic. The Java discord im in is inclusive to C developers and doesn’t tell me oh you should write this in Java. If I have a question about how to do something in C they help me do it in C.
(DIR) Post #AFCYHFnWIRw9vDTjoe by inference@pleroma.inferencium.net
2022-01-07T15:44:50.500586Z
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@me @alcinnz @mathew @laufi @avalos @jbauer You're still not understanding what I'm saying, despite saying this multiple times.It's not about Rust or any specific language, it's about you allowing people and emotion to control what you use. I don't care if it's a programming language or something else.This mentality is completely nonsensical. It's not different to saying "I love this Nintendo Switch game's single player mode, but the community around it is hostile, so even if I never play online, I'll stop playing single player, too."
(DIR) Post #AFCYrzgBBfc4e7Z2dk by me@social.catgirl.is
2022-01-07T15:48:25Z
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@inference @alcinnz @mathew @laufi @avalos @jbauer I don't think that's a comparison. Programming requires collaboration whereas single player games do not. With any programming language you are going to have to ask questions to other programmers to solve problems. Programming is rarely a solo-mission and I want to surround myself with positive not negative people.
(DIR) Post #AFCYs3ka3FVhGvec3U by inference@pleroma.inferencium.net
2022-01-07T15:51:29.341675Z
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@me @alcinnz @mathew @laufi @avalos @jbauer So, you'll just give up on something because most people aren't willing to help?Do you really think that FOSS and such exists because most people are willing to respect each other? No, it exists because people learned for themselves, through trial and error, and the small amount of people who did willingly join the project have helped. No large community started Linux, or NewPipe, or FreeTube, or GrapheneOS, or pretty much any other project which has made a difference; they exist because people kept going, despite criticism and hostility.
(DIR) Post #AFCa1TiYySw8MwlWfg by me@social.catgirl.is
2022-01-07T15:58:49Z
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@inference @alcinnz @mathew @laufi @avalos @jbauer No, I'll take a difference approach to the problem. If working on a project, I might need to port it from say Rust or Java to Golang or C#. Except in very large applications, usually porting every few years isn't a big deal.Even with Linux, technical books and documentation existed. I learn, when outside of my university classes, from books and online documentation.We get into whether all of FOSS is a good thing and often no. I will probably never participate in developing the Linux kernel, I avoid the toxic community. That said when not developing it's a good project.I don't have that luxury with Rust. But again it's a language I don't need anyways. I have alternatives I'm happy with :)
(DIR) Post #AFCa1YjSKZcbvADoG0 by inference@pleroma.inferencium.net
2022-01-07T16:04:24.613908Z
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@me @alcinnz @mathew @laufi @avalos @jbauer I won't mention the fact that I'm not talking about specific things, but everything as a whole, again; I've done it too many times (oops, I just did mention it, again).Example possible scenario:- Uses Rust, switches to Go because of toxic community.- Go community becomes toxic after 3 months, so runs away to Java.- Java community becomes toxic after 1 year, so runs away to Haskell.- Haskell community becomes toxic... I think you get the idea.- There are a very small amount of limiting programming languages remaining, or even none, due to allowing yourself to be pushed away by people supporting or against the language.No, thanks. I'd rather use what I want/need, and what is best for the job. If people want to attack me, as they do in the GrapheneOS community, they can. I will not run away from the most secure OS to ever exist, just because some people are assholes (newsflash: most humans are assholes, regardless of ideology).
(DIR) Post #AFCaQUTHJHHrwgXigC by me@social.catgirl.is
2022-01-07T16:05:47Z
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@inference @alcinnz @mathew @laufi @avalos @jbauer OpenBSD is more secure than GrapheneOS XD there has only be a single kernel vulnerability in like 30 years before Intel's fuck up with spectre and meltdown :DDD
(DIR) Post #AFCaQYWyDUcKXIIizQ by inference@pleroma.inferencium.net
2022-01-07T16:08:56.487916Z
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@me @alcinnz @mathew @laufi @avalos @jbauer Debunk mode activate:https://madaidans-insecurities.github.io/openbsd.htmlHardenedBSD is much more secure in most cases:https://hardenedbsd.org/content/easy-feature-comparison
(DIR) Post #AFCadBpTvnfZtRz43E by inference@pleroma.inferencium.net
2022-01-07T16:10:23.594034Z
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@me @alcinnz @avalos @jbauer @laufi @mathew When OpenBSD has verified boot, at least, come back to me.
(DIR) Post #AFCafbO1sgpzjkIG5Q by inference@pleroma.inferencium.net
2022-01-07T16:11:40.994278Z
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@alcinnz @avalos @jbauer @laufi @mathew @me OpenBSD doesn't even use Control-flow Integrity XD
(DIR) Post #AFCkvhZfdrWF6R3QbA by mathew@mastodon.social
2022-01-07T18:04:17Z
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@me Given that you know Java, you might want to consider Kotlin. It's very easy to pick up if you know Java, solves the Java null pointer problem as well as a bunch of other things, and has native compilers for Linux, macOS, Windows, iOS and Android.
(DIR) Post #AFCkvi0c1h4ORzewam by me@social.catgirl.is
2022-01-07T18:05:18Z
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@mathew most of the jobs in my area use Java not Kotlin so I’m focusing on the most marketable skills at the moment.
(DIR) Post #AFCkvlnHxAmyBpSMNc by inference@pleroma.inferencium.net
2022-01-07T18:06:38.398943Z
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@me @mathew There's not much difference and you could likely learn Kotlin differences in less than 1 week if you already know Java.
(DIR) Post #AFCmQcKdHdZjm5KGUC by me@social.catgirl.is
2022-01-07T18:10:16Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@inference @mathew if I need to use kotlin I can just read the docs 😉
(DIR) Post #AFCmX53TP77IazNiue by inference@pleroma.inferencium.net
2022-01-07T18:24:35.521277Z
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@me @mathew Yes, but I mean there's not a large difference between them. You could think of Kotlin as a .1 update to Java, rather than an entirely new design. It's main difference is having more features.
(DIR) Post #AFCmY2D5T0rc3tKjaa by inference@pleroma.inferencium.net
2022-01-07T18:24:46.799449Z
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@me @mathew Yes, but I mean there's not a large difference between them. You could think of Kotlin as a .1 update to Java, rather than an entirely new design. Its main difference is having more features.
(DIR) Post #AFCzhPqMGaz7MzVPoe by mathew@mastodon.social
2022-01-07T20:18:26Z
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@inference @me So far the Go community has shown itself willing to eject toxic people, even if they are prominent. https://www.reddit.com/r/golang/comments/ppluux/peter_bourgon_banned_from_all_go_community_spaces/
(DIR) Post #AFCzhQFWl17Md3HW2y by me@social.catgirl.is
2022-01-07T20:39:20Z
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@mathew @inference the Rust community seems to allow the Twitter harassment for now. I’m happy to see Golang is taking an active stance to kick out bad Apples.
(DIR) Post #AFCzhU3yZuFqSNuLb6 by inference@pleroma.inferencium.net
2022-01-07T20:52:07.608135Z
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@me @mathew If there are no threats made, it's free speech. You cannot have freedom with any sort of restrictions which lead to more restrictions.The entire reason I created and maintain my security and privacy hardened fediverse instance is to allow ultimate free speech, regardless of such "bad apples" or not.
(DIR) Post #AFEdjymVWvCxdDRRqa by SufficientHeight@mastodon.social
2022-01-08T05:46:56Z
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@me So would you recommend a fork of Firefox like LibreWolf? Or a different web browser entirely? Currently trying LibreWolf and haven't heard anything negative about it.
(DIR) Post #AFEdjzKXUOQjKlMctM by me@social.catgirl.is
2022-01-08T15:41:25Z
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@SufficientHeight I recommend people use Waterfox if they need a Firefox-based web browser. @inference will recommend you use Chromium though. I use a mix of both.
(DIR) Post #AFEdk37DPs9J4bA2gC by inference@pleroma.inferencium.net
2022-01-08T15:55:28.627705Z
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@me @SufficientHeight Security: Chromium (most forks, too)Privacy: Tor BrowserIf neither is an issue, and you don't want to use Chromium for whatever reason, I can't recommended anything other than Firefox, because I'm not familiar with Waterfox. Perhaps consult @me for Firefox forks other than Tor Browser.
(DIR) Post #AFFc0LO7F22ncyfU6S by Casinoslcohol@fosstodon.org
2022-01-09T03:10:46Z
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@avalosPeople talk about how much energy is used to run crypto mining. I would like to know how much energy visa and mastercard use to operate.
(DIR) Post #AFG1CVwgJQe4hTjgga by avalos@mstdn.social
2022-01-09T07:53:06Z
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@Casinoslcohol That's an interesting question. What makes Visa probably different to Bitcoin is the fact that most of the computation and energy is used for performing the transactions, whereas in Bitcoin, most of it is used only to prevent few nodes from controlling the network and also to create artificial scarcity, as part of the proof-of-work consensus protocol.
(DIR) Post #AFG2Cqm0yTd1FdTF9k by Casinoslcohol@fosstodon.org
2022-01-09T08:04:22Z
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@avalos you have to consider all the employees, buildings, etc…. They don’t just use energy to reprocess transactions. They literally have offices around the world.
(DIR) Post #AFG2irOaCHKyRmm3ii by avalos@mstdn.social
2022-01-09T08:10:10Z
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@Casinoslcohol In the case of Bitcoin, you have to consider all the miners, the energy they spend personally, companies that sell mining and Bitcoin services, people who work in such companies, etc.
(DIR) Post #AFG4J2XwJcbvPUxytM by Casinoslcohol@fosstodon.org
2022-01-09T08:27:07Z
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@avalos that’s fair, I was only really thinking about the home miner, but I guess there are now companies built around mining.
(DIR) Post #AFOV4z2Et7No2AAh9M by waweic@chaos.social
2022-01-13T10:05:34Z
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@avalos When they still had relevant market share, they probably could even have done that.I was more thinking about resistance in the Gremiums though. Mozilla was proactive in inventing new web standards
(DIR) Post #AFRPJL4NkCfwAzW1cu by vortex_egg@hackers.town
2022-01-14T19:45:03Z
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@avalos Vivalidi?
(DIR) Post #AFRQMG86fQEtg7DKk4 by avalos@mstdn.social
2022-01-14T19:56:48Z
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@vortex_egg Based on Chromium and proprietary software.
(DIR) Post #AFRRDoMQ80NJBvRdz6 by vortex_egg@hackers.town
2022-01-14T20:06:29Z
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@avalos Ah, fair!
(DIR) Post #AFRRHhbfBKlXOzQihc by FisaCourtHoarder@social.linux.pizza
2022-01-14T20:07:11Z
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@avalos Glad finally see some conversation around this subject.
(DIR) Post #AFRRpJW3FwYMX4pfHs by Bradley_JF@mastodon.online
2022-01-14T20:13:15Z
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@avalos Isn't boycotting BitPay in Mozzarella boycotting BitPay?And think about the logical end to your line of argument. We shouldn't criticize anyone at all for anything they voluntarily and unnecessarily do as long as they posture correctly.
(DIR) Post #AFRVuXRzH7y30vg6eu by jch@don.bitma.st
2022-01-14T20:59:01Z
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@avalos The Mozilla organization itself doesn't seem to champion freedom of speech anymore, so I stopped supporting them many years ago financially and otherwise. However, I do agree with you regarding the knee-jerk reactions of others due to their acceptance of BitPay donations. It's odd for this to be the breaking point for some. Oh well. People are free to boycott them. I don't think it matters in the grand scheme of things.
(DIR) Post #AFT0GTs0SWK040Bfg8 by sigsegv@floss.social
2022-01-15T14:13:50Z
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@avalosWow, this thread! 😵And yes, I agree. It's not their *only* sin though, but an industry leaded by 3 big corps is still a lot less bad than an industry Co trolled by Google alone 😅
(DIR) Post #AG6Xnyx2gwnIt5MFvs by denis@mastodon.ml
2022-02-03T16:03:20Z
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@avalos Mozilla, Google and Microsoft's ecological impact? Oh my god... what an obsession there in the west :-)