Post ADPyn3eUIOv6qPweTQ by Som89@fosstodon.org
(DIR) More posts by Som89@fosstodon.org
(DIR) Post #ADLwV2NSyhqhMtxAwq by TheFuzzStone@fosstodon.org
2021-11-13T08:44:27Z
1 likes, 1 repeats
Fucking politicians. #Austria #COVID #COVID19 #lockdown #vaccine #vaccination https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/12/austria-province-to-place-millions-of-unvaccinated-people-in-covid-lockdown
(DIR) Post #ADLxESeW8QhptFaYU4 by rbkn@fosstodon.org
2021-11-13T08:52:39Z
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@TheFuzzStone that’s for their security I guess. They are protecting the vulnérables who don’t believe in science and are dangerous for themselves and others. 😋
(DIR) Post #ADLy7mMiXoVuxJdlwW by rudolf@fosstodon.org
2021-11-13T09:02:42Z
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@rbkn @TheFuzzStone Berlin's top health official Kalayci recommends people to have no contacts with the unvaccinated:"Kontakt nur mit Geimpfte!"(This is the correct quote. Yes, her grammar is wrong.)She's a migrant, but doesn't mind a split society :(https://twitter.com/dil_kal/status/1458704725956829186
(DIR) Post #ADM1m94DrK4SoFvgA4 by TheFuzzStone@fosstodon.org
2021-11-13T09:43:34Z
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@rbkn, For their safety? Lol. A couple of bureaucrats think they are smarter for thousands of people. I'm fucking sick of all kinds of people wanting to get into my digital life (corporations), and now into my physical life (other corporations + politicians). #COVID19 #covid #vaccine #vaccination
(DIR) Post #ADM4mxLjD5tacVCCQq by Som89@fosstodon.org
2021-11-13T10:17:19Z
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@TheFuzzStone @rbkn Not quite valid comparison. If your computer is compromised it may get banned in the network, with the admin guiding you on how to mitigate the situation - you don't call it "getting into your digital life", right?
(DIR) Post #ADM5909bSpRbgl2Jou by TheFuzzStone@fosstodon.org
2021-11-13T10:21:19Z
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@Som89, I'm the admin of both - my PC and my health. If I decide to commit suicide, it will be my decision. I am not thinking about suicide, I'm doing fine. This was just an example.I also don't run around yelling about what others should do with their lives, health or computers. I don't give a shit. I'm all for free choice.#covid #covid19 #vaccine #vaccination
(DIR) Post #ADMDMTvcsDIhQlRBY0 by Som89@fosstodon.org
2021-11-13T11:53:23Z
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@TheFuzzStone That's might be true if your decisions did not concern others. Like you can still continue using your computer, but without access to the network. Or free to do whatever you want without putting others under higher risk of getting infected.
(DIR) Post #ADNsjz3xZaYZvocYSW by TheFuzzStone@fosstodon.org
2021-11-14T07:11:45Z
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@Som89, What risks are you talking about? Vaccination is not a silver bullet. Vaccinated people also get sick. So..... What risks are you talking about? Or are you one of those naive people who think you can't get sick after being vaccinated?
(DIR) Post #ADOZ7W8axpklFKh2LQ by Som89@fosstodon.org
2021-11-14T15:06:37Z
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@TheFuzzStone I do not think so, that's why I still follow all safety measures. Vaccines do not prevent infection completely, but make it less likely. Being vaccinated you'll also much less likely will end up in a hospital, hence won't spend the resources of the healthcare system that are really needed by other people.
(DIR) Post #ADOqlX8WMtUz9FKEkq by TheFuzzStone@fosstodon.org
2021-11-14T18:24:19Z
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@Som89 > I still follow all safety measures.Me too. Just like before the #COVID19 brand. Just wash my hands, good eat and good sleep.I'd rather start cuddling with people sick with #covid to get sick than let myself be injected with the vaccine. That's my choice.Have you been vaccinated? That's your choice, good for you.
(DIR) Post #ADOrIEVIfH7yusZYB6 by jalvarez@fosstodon.org
2021-11-14T15:47:05Z
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@Som89 @TheFuzzStone I think it is wise to follow safety measures, but we need to be careful with that argument.If something history had taught us is that elites always use that same argument: "It is for your own good".It is our obligation as a non-elite group to verify that it is indeed the case. If we fight each other, if we blame each other for what's going on. How could we collaborate to ensure that all the changes are done for our own good?
(DIR) Post #ADOrIF5SUq3Ej1UQXQ by jalvarez@fosstodon.org
2021-11-14T15:51:10Z
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@Som89 @TheFuzzStone Apple tried to fight #righttorepair movement by arguing that it was unsafe to replace the battery of your phone by yourself.Is that true? Yes, it is! There is an implicit risk of doing so.Now, we should ask ourselves:1) how big is that risk?2) is that really the reason why Apple doesn't want you to replace the battery on their phones?No matter if you use Apple products or not, that's not the point. Apple users and non-users should try to answer those questions.
(DIR) Post #ADOrIFfGLiguW4F1LU by jalvarez@fosstodon.org
2021-11-14T15:57:30Z
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@Som89 @TheFuzzStone Now, if we try to figure out the answer to questions 1) and 2), most likely Apple itself will kindly explain to you all the dangers of replacing the battery by yourself and how they care about you. They will figure out how to do so without (strictly speaking) lying.They might even pay influencers on youtube to show you how dangerous replacing a battery is.If that's not enough, they might even discredit and use pejorative adjectives on people like Louis Rossmann.
(DIR) Post #ADOrIG9OXgnI1WL5JQ by Som89@fosstodon.org
2021-11-14T16:19:22Z
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@jalvarez @TheFuzzStone I totally agree with all you're saying. What I refuse to accept is that in case of COVID (which is a little more important than that of Apple) many people voluntarily take a priori more risky decision without even trying or not having quite suceeded in finding answers to those questions (especially to the first one).
(DIR) Post #ADOrIGeafhkPaGvzw8 by TheFuzzStone@fosstodon.org
2021-11-14T18:30:08Z
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@Som89 @jalvarez But that's their choice. Their own choice, and it's not up to you (or politicians) to decide for other people. Do you understand that?
(DIR) Post #ADOrhm3P3zzwD3hdbs by newt@stereophonic.space
2021-11-14T18:33:24.812003Z
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@Som89 @TheFuzzStone he has already paid for the healthcare from his taxes, so he is as much entitled to is as everyone else, regardless of whether he has been injected with anything. Hell, if he eats bricks in his free time for lunch as a sidedish, he's still entitled to the healthcare services.But that aside, I'm curious about another really important question. If a person is forcefully administered vaccine like this and either dies or suffers some health damage, who takes the blame? If vaccines were voluntary, there would be no question like this. But here this becomes really important.
(DIR) Post #ADOswLnz2OqH6B0MlM by jalvarez@fosstodon.org
2021-11-14T18:48:43Z
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@TheFuzzStone @Som89 I understand. But I also understand people who feel threatened by other people choice (whether or not they are correct, and particularly when it is hard to quantify the risks)Actually, I'm quite concerned about how quickly this corona pass is getting implemented in Europe. That's a different and even a bigger problem in my opinion.Only a minority of people in the parliament seems to care:https://youtube.com/watch?v=t7gO1byQozk&feature=share
(DIR) Post #ADPJNP9bIEYO6xg2UK by Som89@fosstodon.org
2021-11-14T23:44:57Z
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@TheFuzzStone @jalvarez It's their choice, and the government is just about to limit them in using some services depending on that choice. What's the issue?
(DIR) Post #ADPKax8UMMobDvBI3c by Som89@fosstodon.org
2021-11-14T23:56:24Z
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@newt @TheFuzzStone It does not work quite like this. The healthcare system is like an insurance that should assume a limited set of insurance cases. Even though this is not always defined explicitly, putting oneself deliberately under high risk without real reason is nothing but abusing the system, that the government tries to fight with.
(DIR) Post #ADPKaxekQQcSpyH3L6 by newt@stereophonic.space
2021-11-14T23:58:36.190569Z
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@Som89 @TheFuzzStone then why is it universal and compulsory? I'd be happy to stop paying it and pay for a better insurance that covers eating bricks for breakfast. Honestly, this sounds like a breach of contract.Furthermore, you didn't answer the main question about who takes the blame for forced vaccination deaths and lost health.
(DIR) Post #ADPKtxz1QwmfLyosUK by Som89@fosstodon.org
2021-11-15T00:01:10Z
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@newt @TheFuzzStone I don't think it should depend of whether you are forced or not to get vaccinated. If a health damage is proved to be related to a vaccine, the health authorities should be responsible.
(DIR) Post #ADPKtyUvWKIwwvkMDY by newt@stereophonic.space
2021-11-15T00:02:01.556636Z
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@Som89 @TheFuzzStone responsible how? If someone dies, will they be charged with murder?
(DIR) Post #ADPM1E0aLnSD2IZl56 by Som89@fosstodon.org
2021-11-15T00:05:09Z
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@newt @TheFuzzStone Really? I don't think you'd find the price acceptable if that option was explicitly included 🙂 But generally I agree - the public healthcare should specify that people avoiding vaccine without reason should not be dealt with (and I think some countries already do that).
(DIR) Post #ADPM1EWqPrG4eLfWMa by newt@stereophonic.space
2021-11-15T00:12:13.708191Z
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@Som89 @TheFuzzStone I happen to pay for my own insurance that includes extreme sports coverage and I have a very good idea how much this costs. Doesn't cover eating bricks tho, hence I don't eat them :comfyderp: However, I don't pay for the public healthcare. Unfortunately, not many have an option like this.>what would you like?I personally would like no mandatory vaccination or other medical involvement whatsoever. Those who want a vaccine, must have an option to get it.By the way, you again bring up a very interesting topic. If those who subject themselves to extra risk should either pay extra or be denied treatment for covid, should this also apply to fat people? According to statistics, overweight people have higher chances of ending up in a hospital, and most cases of being overweight are associated with unhealthy diets. Or in other words, this is too voluntary risky behaviour. Should they be denied treatment too?
(DIR) Post #ADPNM8hXNTuSbyCddo by Som89@fosstodon.org
2021-11-15T00:22:41Z
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@newt @TheFuzzStone But shouldn't the doctors/authorities still be responsible for damage from vaccine even if it's fully voluntary? I don't think the difference is big here.As for the last point - personally I tend to agree. The cost a person pays for public health insurance should depend on how they care about it themselves. But the two cases are still a bit different: just not giving a shit about one's healh, or deliberate refuse to follow a well justified easy guideline, to get vaccine.
(DIR) Post #ADPNM9DRSrQkCv87N2 by newt@stereophonic.space
2021-11-15T00:29:31.155348Z
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@Som89 @TheFuzzStone have you ever heard about informed consent? If I choose to take any medication, I fully accept the risk of any side effects, granted I've been duly informed about them. This is very important. The only reason here why doctors would be responsible would be if this is either a wrong vaccine (mistakes happen), if it was somehow mishandled, i.e. incorrect storage conditions, or other cases like that.But once you begin enforcing medical treatments, there is no more consent, there for the blame for consequences is entirely on the people who authorized this. Have you ever heard about the Nuremberg Code? There was a reason it was invented, except here replace experimentation with treatments.
(DIR) Post #ADPNjRSbnVYtS7KcUK by newt@stereophonic.space
2021-11-15T00:32:18.569127Z
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@Som89 @TheFuzzStone *therefore. I suck at spelling when I'm sleepy. Apologies!
(DIR) Post #ADPPaFxZO3id5OYqyO by newt@stereophonic.space
2021-11-15T00:54:29.682416Z
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@Som89 @TheFuzzStone for your second argument, these two cases aren’t different at all. A healthy diet isn’t particularly hard to maintain. Meanwhile, the choice not to get a vaccine may be justified by all kinds of reasons, including religion.Are you sure you would want to advocate denying medical treatment to people based on their religious beliefs? Do you REALLY want to go this way? It leads to very VERY bad outcomes.
(DIR) Post #ADPvKVTvRmeitchOEK by TheFuzzStone@fosstodon.org
2021-11-15T06:50:12Z
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@Som89 @jalvarez States are bastards who force businesses to do things they don't want to do. I'm not a naive libertarian, so I understand that businesses are most businesses will obey because the state will apply force to them.But still, there will be businesses those who don't work by the rules and I'll get services. I'll not get a vaccine. Because I don't want to. What's the issue? 😏
(DIR) Post #ADPvU8fF8XR51baMFs by TheFuzzStone@fosstodon.org
2021-11-15T06:51:57Z
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@Som89 @newt It doesn't work that way because the government stole money from you in the form of taxes, but isn't willing to provide you with a service.... Because it just stole the money.
(DIR) Post #ADPvvw2BgiZ7xiZVjM by TheFuzzStone@fosstodon.org
2021-11-15T06:56:58Z
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@Som89 @newt Som, it feels like you're living in some parallel world. States never admit to being wrong. There have been cases where people have died from vaccination. So what? Did "deep regret" do much to help the dead and their families?The dead are written off as statistics. It's just numbers. Even in the media I have seen statements along the lines of "the risk of dying from vaccination is minimal. Oh, "minimal"? So that solves everything! Here's my vaccination - 🖕
(DIR) Post #ADPyZMqs7BMiKyD3PE by Som89@fosstodon.org
2021-11-15T07:26:31Z
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@TheFuzzStone @jalvarez OK, there is no issue - you don't take it and and the state limits you in some things. I still have right to condemn you, you have right to not give a shit.
(DIR) Post #ADPyn3eUIOv6qPweTQ by Som89@fosstodon.org
2021-11-15T07:28:59Z
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@TheFuzzStone @newt Ok, ok, the state simply should not exist because its only function is to steal money from its citizens ;-)
(DIR) Post #ADQ0gpRsOHYKxqCgaW by Som89@fosstodon.org
2021-11-15T07:36:38Z
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@newt @TheFuzzStone OK, I can somewhat agree with this. But please also note that I have dumbly accepted your definition of the discussed measures as "compulsory vaccination", that is actually not quite the case. The state just puts some limitations on those who refuses without a valid reason; so far not really serious limits. We can just take this as another part of the informed consent.
(DIR) Post #ADQ0gpyUR1dmazSjQG by newt@stereophonic.space
2021-11-15T07:50:15.445973Z
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@Som89 @TheFuzzStone are you saying that stripping people of their rights and effectively putting them under house arrest until they do take a vaccine cannot be called compulsory vaccination?
(DIR) Post #ADQ8HGH2pcPSGWSNbE by Som89@fosstodon.org
2021-11-15T09:11:46Z
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@newt @TheFuzzStone You're a little bit exaggerating here, but yes - I don't think it's what one calls compulsory.
(DIR) Post #ADQ8HGxaHSRAOSMLuC by newt@stereophonic.space
2021-11-15T09:15:15.233539Z
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@Som89 @TheFuzzStone which part of "not allowed to leave home unless for work or in case of emergency" is an exaggeration here? Because given how many people work remotely these days, for many of them this is effectively indefinite house arrest.
(DIR) Post #ADQ9CqHVd40qRm89xo by Som89@fosstodon.org
2021-11-15T09:19:46Z
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@newt @TheFuzzStone A health diet generally is not easy to maintain. As well as e.g. doing sports. And there may be a number of reasons people do not want that, including the religion as well.Which reasons should the state accept as an excuse for not getting a vaccine - it's arguable. My personal opinion is that religion should not be in the list. Secular state may allow people to confess any faith but it should not be obliged to respect that where is contradicts public benefit.
(DIR) Post #ADQ9CqpBbqx28Dt3SK by newt@stereophonic.space
2021-11-15T09:25:39.498093Z
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@Som89 @TheFuzzStone how exactly is a healthy diet hard to maintain? Don't overeat, prefer veggies, fruits, and meat over processed foods and carbs. How is this in any way a problem?In addition, what exactly is public benefit? Do you have a solution for the trolley problem? I must remind you, medical experiments conducted on living people against their will have given ENORMOUS public benefits in the years after. Are you saying you are ok with that?
(DIR) Post #ADQ9OjfQ2y3DPLzA3M by Som89@fosstodon.org
2021-11-15T09:26:29Z
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@newt @TheFuzzStone It is not indefinite (at least in my country such measures are introduced for a predefined period - too shot in my opinion actually). People in fact are only forbidden to go outside for entertainment. I would also allow walking and doing sports alone outside crowded places; hopefully this option will be added.
(DIR) Post #ADQ9OkCO4OQF3bPURM by newt@stereophonic.space
2021-11-15T09:27:50.206375Z
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@Som89 @TheFuzzStone I have no idea where you live. The original post mentioned Austria, and there it seems effectively indefinite. This shitshow originally was promised to last only weeks, months at most. We're a year and a half into it. Are you sure it will end any time soon?
(DIR) Post #ADQ9keroZeSatLEkYC by newt@stereophonic.space
2021-11-15T09:31:47.884615Z
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@Som89 @TheFuzzStone I think I understand your position here, and it is disturbing to say the least. What you argue for is that the government may enact any measures that can be even remotely justified with "the greater good" and the ends always justify the means.What's even more disturbing, you seem to be from Russia, which doesn't exactly have a good track record of respecting people's rights in the recent years. If ever. I only hope you change you opinion before this huge and ugly machine runs you over. Thank you for the thread.
(DIR) Post #ADQ9uc8TaFOlJgmGgK by Som89@fosstodon.org
2021-11-15T09:32:37Z
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@newt @TheFuzzStone It has already ended and started again a few times in many countries, based on the actual epidemiological situation. I can't quickly find the source for the original post but can hardly believe such measures can be introduced indefinitely in a democratic country.
(DIR) Post #ADQ9uclTFGafGd1PSi by newt@stereophonic.space
2021-11-15T09:33:36.369954Z
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@Som89 @TheFuzzStone my favorite example is how 20 years after 9/11 you still can't take a bottle of water with you on a plane. This includes in democratic countries.
(DIR) Post #ADQG73EHH9NYXtnxLs by Som89@fosstodon.org
2021-11-15T10:38:49Z
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@newt @TheFuzzStone If it matters, I can say that in general I am strictly opposed to current Russia's politics and much scared about our human rights situation.Hence I get even more confused why they cannot effectively use their (usually malicious otherwise) control/propaganda machinery to the public benefit now, when it can really help.(Well, fairly - I understand that, but it's another long story...)
(DIR) Post #ADQG73ktJtT0B340Bc by newt@stereophonic.space
2021-11-15T10:43:04.853086Z
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@Som89 @TheFuzzStone because it isn’t their concern. The only goal of having power is to acquire even more power.