Post ACVCf7B0Fp1G3DqUwi by PaulFranz@fosstodon.org
(DIR) More posts by PaulFranz@fosstodon.org
(DIR) Post #ACUq2MaOpVghYdqEQi by mike@fosstodon.org
2021-10-18T17:52:12Z
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Just finished watching the #AppleEvent. Aside from the annoyingly massive number of adjectives those people use, it looks like the biggest "innovations" this time is bringing back the F keys and adding ports. Woohoo?
(DIR) Post #ACUqaSsZwEKavCbbGK by hyde@lazybear.social
2021-10-18T17:58:33Z
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@mikeWith a higher price ?
(DIR) Post #ACUqr7k7mAMKI7aw08 by Crocmagnon@fosstodon.org
2021-10-18T18:01:22Z
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@mike I scratched my head when they called it a “brand new design” when in fact it’s more like taking the original Retina MacBook Pro and replacing USB-A with USB-C, and upgrading the chip and display. It’s mostly what the 2017 generation should have been, chip aside.I can’t understand why they released a “pro” laptop that could only connect to one external display last year and I don’t understand why in the world it still for sale.
(DIR) Post #ACUr8gukGMv4IPwIFM by jrballesteros05@fosstodon.org
2021-10-18T18:04:31Z
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@mike I don't like to watch those events, I even realised because of social media.Long time ago I learnt Apple like selling overpriced crap.
(DIR) Post #ACUtUdOMEulnePNha4 by Sulairris@fosstodon.org
2021-10-18T18:30:35Z
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@mike a rare instance of apple back pedaling on a design choice, welcome back MagSafeAlso a notch on a laptop is dumb
(DIR) Post #ACUv4YpYm8oLspneLY by jack@mastodon.sdf.org
2021-10-18T18:48:36Z
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@mike Think different(tm): Apple = Innovation!!1!1
(DIR) Post #ACUxujOGxWEtbK2ao4 by daz@fosstodon.org
2021-10-18T19:20:25Z
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@mike I was thinking the biggest innovation was the power consumption to performance ratio
(DIR) Post #ACV2H5qWY8WbQwApzU by MurrayWindripper@fosstodon.org
2021-10-18T20:09:21Z
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@mikeSssshhh don't let @kev hear you dissing the big A🤣
(DIR) Post #ACV2yL7vc0RxHHw5po by mike@fosstodon.org
2021-10-18T20:17:13Z
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@Sulairris Fully agree on the notch. I'm not a huge fan of them even on phones, but there's more of an excuse there when you're considering the form factor. A pro-level laptop? Sorry, no.
(DIR) Post #ACV3BXp7iX2kQ8R8jI by mike@fosstodon.org
2021-10-18T20:19:34Z
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@daz I'm not sure about that just because Apple insists on defining their performance as "relative" performance without saying what it's relative to. Add to that their liberal sprinkling of "up to" qualifiers, and I have no idea how fast or slow that laptop really is.
(DIR) Post #ACV3FI9hudMIz9qr1U by mike@fosstodon.org
2021-10-18T20:20:17Z
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@MurrayWindripper Meh, I have a friend that literally works at Apple, and I've been giving him crap about Macs for decades. @kev is a lightweight. 😉
(DIR) Post #ACVCf7B0Fp1G3DqUwi by PaulFranz@fosstodon.org
2021-10-18T22:05:37Z
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@mike The one thing that I think is awesome about the M1 chips are that they are SOC. That means the RAM is built into the chip (yes it means it is not upgradeable) and by putting it directly on the chip that means there is faster access between the memory and the CPU. No need to traverse a bus to get to the memory.
(DIR) Post #ACVCpTXXxgW8J3KZDU by brandon@fosstodon.org
2021-10-18T22:07:34Z
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@mike to play devil’s advocate, the laptops released last year outperformed their intel counterparts by quite the margin. I imagine this is building on top of that. The claim they make in terms of power efficiency really puts the cherry on top
(DIR) Post #ACVDRsuw3eyU15aMjo by mike@fosstodon.org
2021-10-18T22:14:35Z
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@PaulFranz See, I'm not really sure how I feel about that. There's definitely an argument to be made about taking the bus out, but that also means there are no options when it comes to configuration. That's really all the "Pro" and the "Max" are is small variations that would normally be configurable options. The speed bump is definitely a silver lining, as long as you're happy with what Apple gives you and don't really feel like you need a choice in the matter.
(DIR) Post #ACVDqomCagawPhODlQ by mike@fosstodon.org
2021-10-18T22:19:04Z
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@brandon Are you sure about that?
(DIR) Post #ACVFz2h0vxYLnc0pqS by brandon@fosstodon.org
2021-10-18T22:42:56Z
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@mike I don’t know of a laptop with the same performance AND power efficiency
(DIR) Post #ACVGfqs6lBO5aZcAbY by mike@fosstodon.org
2021-10-18T22:50:41Z
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@brandon But the M1 is not only in laptops, so only comparing it to laptops isn't an accurate representation of it's "Intel counterparts". See, the M1 is like one of those sidewalk chalk drawings. It looks really cool, as long as you only look at it from the precise angle the artist who made it wants you to look at it from.
(DIR) Post #ACVRAKqSsnSAmN1KFc by brandon@fosstodon.org
2021-10-19T00:48:15Z
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@mike the M1 pro/max chips that were released today are indeed only in laptops and that’s what I’m referring to. Tbh the first gen anything from most companies is usually an experiment and this was apparent with M1 proper. MBP, Mac mini, iMac, MacBook Air, and iPad Pro…sounds just like Apple was giddy to stick their chip anywhere it would fitCurious to see what we can expect with Apple Silicon in the Mac Pro. Yes they cost an arm and a leg but the value proposition is unique and Apple knows it
(DIR) Post #ACVWcQA3DAmP94OROa by mike@fosstodon.org
2021-10-19T01:49:20Z
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@brandon So, let me see if I understand you correctly. The M1 Pro/Max chips were the chips you were referring to you when you said, "the laptops released last year outperformed their intel counterparts by quite the margin."I'm curious as to where Apple is going to go with this. The Pro/Max is interesting, but it doesn't seem to have any improvement to the actual cores. They just crammed more stuff into the proc. That's not sustainable over time.
(DIR) Post #ACVaZxm0BZNSL6ECX2 by brandon@fosstodon.org
2021-10-19T02:33:42Z
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@mike my bad, I crossed my wires. The M1 chips from laptops last year already outperformed Intel counterparts. M1 chips this year now beat up both Intel and AMD and steal their lunch moneySure that’s not sustainable over time, but I don’t think that’s the strategy. I think up until M1, Apple’s slowly been building their MTG card deck, challenging each iteration agains the previous, and now their laying their cards out at a tournament for the world to see. At least that’s what it’s looking like
(DIR) Post #ACVaa0pIpknfoCnNaq by brandon@fosstodon.org
2021-10-19T02:33:42Z
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@mike Right now it’s more of a “get everything on Apple Silicon which we know performs better because we made it that way” than a “look we can get a leg up on Intel AND we can improve on our last generation.” Everyone was expecting M1X, as in “the next version of M1” but that’s not what we got. We got same generation, just with more cores and memory. It’s shown right in the name. It’s all STILL called M1, just one is M1 plus, the other M1 plus plus.
(DIR) Post #ACVaa39ECdvX0a8Jvc by brandon@fosstodon.org
2021-10-19T02:33:43Z
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@mike Apple truly has a unique value proposition here: they make the CPU(actually a silicon fab does, Apple just designs the thing), the compiler, programming language spec, the kernel, and the operating system. They literally control the entire compute stack…and that’s mind boggling to me. They have Amazon’d the laptop from the way I see it. Rant over lol
(DIR) Post #ACVahFdo9TORmZs2Vs by brandon@fosstodon.org
2021-10-19T02:35:08Z
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@mike obviously I’ve more than played devils advocate by this point but at most I embellished a bit :p
(DIR) Post #ACVcUOaBnO0hesAx5E by ussducky@mastodon.social
2021-10-19T02:55:13Z
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@brandon @mike super excited for linux kernel support to mature. especially considering all these lines of M1 chips should, in theory, all work the same way.It makes my poor Ryzen 7 5700g look like a joke.
(DIR) Post #ACVdzPd63LzDputCm8 by efftoyz@fosstodon.org
2021-10-19T03:12:03Z
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@brandon> Amazone'd the laptopTeehee! I like this expression! :ablobcatbongo: @mike
(DIR) Post #ACVxkye5a2jnAykQBU by Iutech@fosstodon.org
2021-10-19T06:53:15Z
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@mike They have "F...." keys now ?I thought Apple was against adult applications ?
(DIR) Post #ACW5JDmiV0Lped3je4 by daz@fosstodon.org
2021-10-19T08:18:05Z
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@mike I've been using an M1 Mac mini and the performance is impressive. So, I'm hopeful for the pro/max versions. I just can't justify spending nearly £4k on a machine right now 😕
(DIR) Post #ACWAVeAeinCyje07Ga by kev@fosstodon.org
2021-10-19T09:16:25Z
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@mike 😂 😂 @MurrayWindripper
(DIR) Post #ACWAdDP47uPG29LkLA by kev@fosstodon.org
2021-10-19T09:17:41Z
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@mike @MurrayWindripper for the record, I agree with Mike. Lots of words, but not a lot said.Having said that, owning a 2020 M1, if the new Pro and Max chips are as good as they say, nothing will come close to them in the industry.
(DIR) Post #ACWB4dS1OEsgdbo6y0 by peter@mastodon.peterbabic.dev
2021-10-19T09:22:46Z
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What OS is the primary driver for @kev these days btw? @mike @MurrayWindripper
(DIR) Post #ACWBN154H1t98XpsSe by kev@fosstodon.org
2021-10-19T09:26:07Z
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@peter MacOS@mike @MurrayWindripper
(DIR) Post #ACWBlGBlknIywZWx4i by peter@mastodon.peterbabic.dev
2021-10-19T09:30:29Z
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@kev last time I remember you were ditching Linux in favor of Windows, which was very strange. Do you still use Windows for anything?@mike @MurrayWindripper
(DIR) Post #ACWDMZlo0vVqLIkAYC by peter@mastodon.peterbabic.dev
2021-10-19T09:48:25Z
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@kev I mean, it made a lot of noise around, and you wrote quite lengthy article on the whole issue, citing many reasons for using windows. I believe I read through most of it. So the Mac won in the end as a combination of UNIX world tools + does not break suddenly when.
(DIR) Post #ACWEz3lB3olcJSMdVo by peter@mastodon.peterbabic.dev
2021-10-19T10:06:35Z
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@kev *does not break suddenly when the tool is needed for work.Was the M1 partly or mostly responsible? I would love to try it out once.
(DIR) Post #ACWFQfsTRpqOLqwdZQ by fedops@fosstodon.org
2021-10-19T10:11:36Z
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@peter Macos is still the best way to run shrinkwrapped unix applications...@kev
(DIR) Post #ACWJGwWH7Owet1B0TY by kev@fosstodon.org
2021-10-19T10:54:40Z
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@peter I wouldn't say my post caused much that much noise, nor was it lengthy.Anyway, I still have the Thinkpad running Win10 (it's now my wife's laptop). I chose to move to Mac mainly because I could.I'd heard great stuff about the M1 Macs and I really like my iOS devices, plus it's more private (I think) thank Win 10, so I decided to go with it.If I were to stop using MacOS, I'd go back to Win before Linux.
(DIR) Post #ACWJu2LROUZqFMka7k by peter@mastodon.peterbabic.dev
2021-10-19T11:01:42Z
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@kev Well, it was lengthy compared to what I usually manage to produce :)Good for you, anyway!
(DIR) Post #ACWJxMjg2OMiMBfqV6 by peter@mastodon.peterbabic.dev
2021-10-19T11:02:19Z
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@fedops can you elaborate on "shrinkwrapped unix application" a little bit please? @kev
(DIR) Post #ACWLZwtCATIjRY5V6u by fedops@fosstodon.org
2021-10-19T11:20:08Z
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@peter it stems from a time when Unix applications were generally distributed in the form of source code on tapes, to be compiled on the target system. In those days binary compatibility across systems wasn't there as everybody used a different CPU architecture and libraries.PC software OTOH was sold in shrinkwrapped boxes, with a simple installation everyone could do. Unix admins were wishing for something similar. Later it meant "commercial sw", e.g. Photoshop.@kev
(DIR) Post #ACWZt9L5VDDOusBTKi by peter@mastodon.peterbabic.dev
2021-10-19T14:00:44Z
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@fedops I am not that old to remember that, but I have that thing to read books about history of computers. Shrink-wrapped software tapes topic is something I hope to find more about in some book 🙂 thanks @kev
(DIR) Post #ACWaRf7FrZhVJgAdsW by jase@social.x220.co.uk
2021-10-19T13:50:36.639215Z
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@kevIm seeing quite a few former Linux enthusiasts switching to Windows, not necessarily because it a better experience but because they are jaded with Linux at the momentI kinda hope this changes with the upcoming release of steamdeck and as folks explore windows 11 limitations @peter
(DIR) Post #ACWaRfZcA8NyjdRI5A by peter@mastodon.peterbabic.dev
2021-10-19T14:07:03Z
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@jase well I saw this trend too a little, but then these developers use VS code anyway. For me, two things can break:1) Some shit happens on Arch, so my DE/mouse/display/whatever is going crazy. This is usually what drives people away, even from distributions that generally require less maintenance.2) coc-nvim plugin changes so I have to adapt vimrc in some way to mitigate. Vim is meant to be hacked regularly and this franky does not happen too often @kev
(DIR) Post #ACWatrNfr9SvSnIR9c by peter@mastodon.peterbabic.dev
2021-10-19T14:12:09Z
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@jase when I was using VS code, the built-in terminal was pretty good, but the limitations of WSL1 were too bad, I hated to deal with it. Now with WSL2 the situation could be much different but I had not tested it yet.Still, I am not sure about using vim full-time on Windows. If I were writing everything in VS code, switching around would be easier.But then, it is also easy to switch from Windows to Mac, as @kev did, if I understand that correctly
(DIR) Post #ACWiytj1MoE5ocC7Bw by mike@fosstodon.org
2021-10-19T15:42:32Z
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@brandon They "outperformed Intel counterparts" for very specific scenarios. What Apple's current strategy looks like to me is a rehash of their AIM days, where they started out fine and then fell farther and farther behind, still claiming to be the best thing since sliced bread until they finally gave it up and converted all their machines to Intel based processors.
(DIR) Post #ACWjZZpiHukapsoZKi by mike@fosstodon.org
2021-10-19T15:49:11Z
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@brandon That read like you consider that a good thing. I realize that text is easy to misinterpret, but a single company controlling every aspect of a platform is NOT a good thing. It's not good if Microsoft does it. It's not good if Amazon does it. It's not good if Apple does it. Apple already goes out of its way to milk its users for every thin dime they can squeeze out of them. I'm thankful that Apple only controls minority shares of markets it's in.
(DIR) Post #ACX0hImnK9wLz9KQng by fedops@fosstodon.org
2021-10-19T17:31:39Z
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@peter computing in the 80s and 90s was quite interesting. Certainly much more diverse than today's monoculture. I quite enjoyed it, even though (or maybe because?) things took more work. A significant part was ftp-ing software from all over the place and piecing together docs and Usenet posts to figure out how to get it to compile.@kev
(DIR) Post #ACXDCp66RKrscm9mLo by brandon@fosstodon.org
2021-10-19T21:21:08Z
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@mike I’m speaking as a technology enthusiast when I say it’s amazing or mind boggling. So it’s cool, and impressive, privacy issues notwithstanding
(DIR) Post #ACXDNpFaDBgSHfpyoS by brandon@fosstodon.org
2021-10-19T21:23:02Z
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@mike I don’t know what second gen Apple Silicon is going to look like. I can’t imagine as this is pretty much new territory. If the performance improvements are based on specific use cases, they’re likely to fall under the Apple demographic’s majority of use cases
(DIR) Post #ACXHT7FD8aQbM8RQUi by peter@mastodon.peterbabic.dev
2021-10-19T22:09:08Z
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@fedops that would perfectly match up what I have read so far. Good for you to be able to enjoy that era :)
(DIR) Post #ACXPx99tNsqFc6mhA8 by PaulFranz@fosstodon.org
2021-10-19T23:43:57Z
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@mike What really surprises me is that AMD and Intel and not offering the same kind of SOC for laptop manufacturers. Especially, for the thinner laptops where you don't have the possibility to upgrade memory or graphics.
(DIR) Post #ACYmqtKVoXz4t7hKjI by brandon@fosstodon.org
2021-10-20T15:35:15Z
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@mike looking at GeekBench scores it looks like your prediction that they’re simply adding more cores seems to be correct. The single core performance is within a margin of error similar to M1 proper and multi core performance is where it excels over M1 proper (both Pro and Max)
(DIR) Post #ACYoBJ3rxEwaRHDCEa by mike@fosstodon.org
2021-10-20T15:50:15Z
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@PaulFranz It's not super surprising actually. The MacBook Pro is kind of a niche device. There are already laptops that are on the market that compete with the battery life Apple is claiming, which is why they say "the longest battery life ever on a Mac notebook" and not "the longest battery life ever on ANY notebook". While the claimed performance makes a nice presentation, no one is editing 30 streams of 4K ProRes video in a coffee shop saying, "Look how great my battery life is!"
(DIR) Post #ACYoha2INXe0Lqrh5c by mike@fosstodon.org
2021-10-20T15:56:04Z
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@brandon Which only makes sense. If they have a remotely decent scheduler, they're going to see better multi-core performance when they add more cores. To a point anyway. Apple can't just keep adding more and more cores. Eventually the return is going to flatline. The interesting thing is going to be when Apple does something more than add more cores, more GPUs and more RAM to the SoC.
(DIR) Post #ACZYBX7oGK8nwp6Ke0 by PaulFranz@fosstodon.org
2021-10-21T00:25:45Z
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@mike But the M1 SOC design is not for just the MacBook Pro. It will be for the low end and high end Macs. As I said, I know that is limits the ability to upgrade the pieces of the computer. But I feel like the overall performance that can be achieved would be worth it.
(DIR) Post #ACZhfmhHpRwuWFC8sy by mike@fosstodon.org
2021-10-21T02:12:05Z
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@PaulFranz I honestly don't think it will be worth it. Even for their press event Apple couldn't claim that they had a speed advantage over some high end laptops, just that their power management was better. Take that same processor and throw it into a professional rig with an actual high-end workstation proc? That M1 isn't going to stand a chance. Plus, Apple's strategy here is to build everything into the SoC. Are they going to have a new version of the M1 every time they want to increase RAM?
(DIR) Post #ACZlCTpbIC7VQUMjo0 by PaulFranz@fosstodon.org
2021-10-21T02:51:38Z
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@mike understood and when it comes to creating a new chip every time they need to increase RAM. As crazy as it sounds. Yes.