Post AATFFqi3GJS1Vy81o0 by csepp@merveilles.town
(DIR) More posts by csepp@merveilles.town
(DIR) Post #AAQLwC0KUm2pyMN8fA by devinprater@dragonscave.space
2021-08-17T16:23:40Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
So, a blind person bought a Pinephone, wanting to put Mobian on it. Since Debian has given such good accessibility features on desktop, it should give just as much accessibility on mobile. Debian on mobile should have blind users' backs. Right?Wrong. This is just what I've been saying for the past year or so. And now, for this person who has spent their hard-earned money on a Pinephone, it's too late. Now all they have is an expensive paperweight. There is an issue created for this, though.https://gitlab.gnome.org/World/Phosh/phosh/-/issues/47#a11y #debian #mobian #mobile #foss #accessibility
(DIR) Post #AARhoNrYuibGaHuf0C by nick@social.kaitaia.life
2021-08-17T22:16:04.824281Z
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@devinprater I'm sorry to hear of this. Unfortunately for your friend, the #Pinephone is still listed as a beta product, and you can't blame @PINE64 for something they have no control over. They only manufacture the hardware, they don't develop the OS'. There is also a clear and highlighted warning on the Pinephone product page "Beta Limited Edition PinePhones are aimed solely at early adopters. More specifically, only intend for these units to find their way into the hands of users with extensive Linux experience."The @mobian team on the other hand, are not only a small independent team of developers, but they are also further behind other projects who are working on Phone OS', like Manjaro etc. They only just had their upstream distro release a major version, so they're working at pace to keep up. As a point of interest, it's not #Mobian at fault either. #Phosh is the default "desktop" used by Mobian, which is developed by #Purism I think. They would be the ones to approach about accessibility issues. I see you've posted a link to the GitLab, that's about all you can do, short of contributing to the development directly.While I feel for your friend, the onus is on the user to research the product they're purchasing. The warning was given, and I'm not sure if it could have been made more clear. OS development is still in the very early stages.
(DIR) Post #AARhoOVcVmduaWeeRM by mobian@fosstodon.org
2021-08-18T09:13:07Z
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@nick yes, a11y is one of those areas that are still lacking and it is not for lack of will. Even for the non-blind there are many rough and unfinished spots and making e.g. gtk accessibility touchscreen aware has not been done yet by anyone... Contributions are very much welcome of course.
(DIR) Post #AATFFls9FLYYVpoWLg by lorabe@floss.social
2021-08-17T23:49:07Z
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@devinprater All respect to this, but mobian devs, posh devs, gnome devs, and so on and so forth are doing their best in order to deliver a product that is not ready to replace an android device yet, they don't have the resources that android devs have, they're not backed by google.So if you want to improve this situation, donate if you have money and send the message. Probably a crowdfunding campaign would help.
(DIR) Post #AATFFmQXBV3uETtywi by devinprater@dragonscave.space
2021-08-17T23:54:52Z
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@lorabe This is but a symptom of a systematic issue of inaccessibility in FOSS. People can toss around blame all they want. I didn't even blame Pine for this. And yeah, users should read about stuff they're about to spend money on. But this user trusted the Debian, and thus, Mobian community. But whatever. I'm stepping back from FOSS for the most part. I'll comment on it, but I'm not about to do more work when I'm basically alone in doing it.
(DIR) Post #AATFFmzd518PzKK0eG by lorabe@floss.social
2021-08-18T00:13:31Z
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@devinprater You are in your right to complain, but that doesn't solve the problem, it prevents understanding.It's quite easy to complain when you take the availability of funds and hired people for granted, but programmers are spending their free time in good faith and people don't seem to care or acknowledge their contributions.I guess in this case i will side with the devs, but the best solution to all of this is to coordinate and collect money in order to actually fund development.
(DIR) Post #AATFFnRzNZotPHaequ by devinprater@dragonscave.space
2021-08-18T02:16:53Z
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@lorabe Sure. As a blind person, I’ve tried putting myself out there, so that developers can work with me and otheR blind Linux users. But sure. I’m just yet anotheR damn user taking advantage of poor developers that are just trying to enjoy something that isn’t their day job. Never mind that companies like System 76 and the Gnome Foundation work on this fulltime. But whatever. I won’t bother the developer gods with such lowly issues as the most disadvantaged group of people ever not being able to use their software which they publish to the world.
(DIR) Post #AATFFnxtSxLB0EW8a8 by danielst@social.librem.one
2021-08-18T08:10:42Z
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@devinprater @lorabe Phosh is mainly developed by Purism, not by Mobian, Debian and especially not by Pine. The pinephone costs a fraction of the Librem 5, for the most part because they don't create the software for it. I paid 4 times as much hard earned money for an L5 as you, so that we can have that in the future.Funding as well as volunteering are needed there.
(DIR) Post #AATFFoU9X192cHbtrc by devinprater@dragonscave.space
2021-08-18T10:55:15Z
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@danielst @lorabe I’ll fund whoever will work on accessibility. Right now, that's just @storm and the Stormux team.
(DIR) Post #AATFFp1pVo5EIjMnM8 by csepp@merveilles.town
2021-08-18T23:49:25Z
1 likes, 2 repeats
@devinprater @danielst @lorabe @storm A big problem is that libre devs seem to just not want to learn about accessibility.If you spend hours ricing your setup or arguing about languages, you can't claim to not have time to read up on accessibility.Accessibility is also not something you add as an afterthought, just like security, you consider it from day 0, so you don't have to rebuild things from the ground up when it turns out your initial assumptions are incompatible with accessibility.
(DIR) Post #AATFFqi3GJS1Vy81o0 by csepp@merveilles.town
2021-08-18T23:52:38Z
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@devinprater @danielst @lorabe @storm Btw this is my regular foss callout post:if you are thinking of writing another fucking ncurses app you had better have a damn good reason for mimicking a proper GUI toolkit extremely poorly. UNIX fetishism is not such a reason.
(DIR) Post #AATFFsV0bmCr462dkm by csepp@merveilles.town
2021-08-18T23:54:29Z
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@devinprater @danielst @lorabe @storm I'm saying this as someone who contributes to Guix and experiments with Plan 9: (some) Linux fans need to get their priorities in order.
(DIR) Post #AATzikFsvxQDmofd1E by praveen@social.masto.host
2021-08-19T08:56:57Z
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@cseppWhen there is a problem, there are usually two ways. 1. Find someone to blame for the issue, which is very easy. 2. Find a solution to the problem, which is very hard. When the solution requires collective action, it needs a lot of patience to work with others and then the solution may take a long time to build. So a lot of people chose option 1.@devinprater @danielst @lorabe @storm
(DIR) Post #AATzikkN6boBJMvyXQ by csepp@merveilles.town
2021-08-19T10:12:15Z
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@praveen Good point. Although in theory there already supposed be organizations where accessibility dev is an explicit goal, like GNOME. Maybe a new organization would help move things along faster, but I really really hope that GNOME gets its accessibility act together.@devinprater @danielst @lorabe @storm
(DIR) Post #AATzilCNQUD4iE2LBo by devinprater@dragonscave.space
2021-08-19T10:18:57Z
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@csepp @praveen @danielst @lorabe @storm I kinda feel like they’ve forgotten about accessibility, but that's just me being synical. But I wouldn't know how to even start an organization.
(DIR) Post #AATzildfn02o4so8jg by wizzwizz4@fosstodon.org
2021-08-19T12:11:38Z
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@devinprater @csepp @praveen @danielst @lorabe @storm GTK4 has pretty much a full revamp of the accessibility system (taking out ATK, to use AT-SPI2 directly). It probably seems like bikeshedding, but it's actually them training a team who actually know about accessibility on Debian; all that knowledge was lost during a failed inter-organisation migration when the funding disappeared.
(DIR) Post #AAU9W1SSf62yuv7oOG by jlcrawf@social.librem.one
2021-08-19T14:11:44Z
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@devinprater Said another way. Someone with special needs did absolutely no research to determine whether the product they were purchasing could support those needs. When the product inevitably did not, it is the fault of the programmers who are working free of charge, despite the fact that it is not yet even a finished project that could be recommended for most people without special needs.
(DIR) Post #AAUEhcMAfd4B7RV5Q8 by devinprater@dragonscave.space
2021-08-19T15:09:50Z
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@jlcrawf Said another way: A person with accessibility needs trusted a community that seemed similar to Debian to provide an accessible phone experience. Trusting FOSS, the user bought a Pinephone to put Mobian on it, and was let down. Yes, the user could have done some research. But as scattered as accessibility information for Linux is, the user may not even have found anything saying that accessibility services weren't in Mobian yet, because developers only think of people that sense like them, feel like them, act like them, and think like them. All else is marked "special needs" so as to be othered.
(DIR) Post #AAVtvTVudS7x1gk8VE by zens@merveilles.town
2021-08-20T08:51:16Z
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@devinprater @lorabe in Australia it’s straight up illegal to release inaccessible software, whether it’s free or not. by this software even being available in australia they’re breaching international consumer law. and this is no laughing matter either- the australian government enforces the fuck out of consumer law. everyone from apple to garage project kickstarters have been bitten by australia.
(DIR) Post #AAVtvVAiTEMQAWqEk4 by zens@merveilles.town
2021-08-20T08:52:18Z
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@devinprater @lorabe in shortstop making excuses and fix your shitty free software
(DIR) Post #AAVtvWrICQ0nOrlkkC by zens@merveilles.town
2021-08-20T09:07:01Z
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@devinprater @lorabe (not you, devin. emoji heart)
(DIR) Post #AAVyAwIaIMRASh8e5w by zens@merveilles.town
2021-08-20T11:14:05Z
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@jlcrawf @devinprater “here’s your goddamn gruel, street rat. take it or leave it, but don’t complain because it’s free” is not great sales technique for FOSS. every time I see this sentiment it makes me more sympathetic to microsoft.MICROSOFT. i hate microsoft! but because MS cares about accessibility and FOSS people don’t, microsoft is better at human rights. and you have to try pretty hard to worse than supporting ICE
(DIR) Post #AAVzJcTPTUnvXDuALI by jlcrawf@social.librem.one
2021-08-20T11:26:52Z
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@zens @devinprater Microsoft has the opportunity to create a finished product. Software-wise the pinephone is nowhere near a finished product.I am a person with fairly normal needs and I spent weeks trying to determine if the pinephone was something that I could use daily. When I finally bought mine I still wasn't sure and knew I could end up buying a paperweight.
(DIR) Post #AAW02iS0690l6WkWKO by jlcrawf@social.librem.one
2021-08-20T11:35:01Z
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@zens @devinprater The pinephone is a testing product not an end user device. Mobian is barely a year old. While it is the most daily driver ready OS (at least from my research) It has a long way to go before it is ready for prime time. Again, the developers are working free of charge in their spare time. And yes, they will probably work on the things they need first. Then they will most likely work on the things the the majority need. Special needs will come.
(DIR) Post #AAW0itzlZ8o94VeuVk by zens@merveilles.town
2021-08-20T11:42:04Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@jlcrawf @devinprater 20% of the population is disabled in some way. I’ve seen foss devs bend over backwards for obscure hardware almost no one uses, or browsees with 1% market share. not impressed with the patronising “wait your turn” tone. one day, you too will he disabled by age. this isn’t a niche issue.
(DIR) Post #AAW7HOYD4CwlPPbH72 by zens@merveilles.town
2021-08-20T11:54:18Z
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@jlcrawf @devinprater also: is the pinephone a consumer product being sold for actual money? did they also skimp on fire and electrical safety laws?
(DIR) Post #AAW7HP2LGB38urhL4y by jlcrawf@social.librem.one
2021-08-20T12:56:01Z
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@zens @devinprater On their website, just abovevthe add to cart button they specifically say, "Beta Edition Pinephones are aimed solely at early adopters."This has never been put forth as a finished product.If the developers who are working in their spare time at their own expense are not working specifically on the functions that you want and you do not have the technical expertise to do it yourself, then find someone who does and help fund them.
(DIR) Post #AAW7TxB69KKOHJmJk0 by jlcrawf@social.librem.one
2021-08-20T12:58:23Z
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@zens @devinprater If you are going to rely on people working for free in their spare time, then you are going to get what they choose to work on first.You are not entitled to their labor. They are giving of their labor freely.
(DIR) Post #AAW7tJ7DivHTYW3Pwe by zens@merveilles.town
2021-08-20T13:02:56Z
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@jlcrawf @devinprater repeating the same argument a second time doesn’t make it more convincing
(DIR) Post #AAWASqA33JbO5YRq4G by zens@merveilles.town
2021-08-20T13:09:09Z
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@jlcrawf @devinprater for all your posturing about how the blind person should have done better research; and pointing out warnings on the website about the product they should not be allowed to legally sell; have you bothered to check if the website is accessible to screen readers?
(DIR) Post #AAWASqd7JEr1Xi33NQ by jlcrawf@social.librem.one
2021-08-20T13:31:46Z
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@zens @devinprater No, I haven't. But if it is not accessible to screen readers, that might have been considered a first clue that the phone is not ready either.Yes, I will continue to posture on researching products before you spend money on them. It does not matter whether you have any disabilities or not, you should always research to see if the product you are buying will meet your needs.
(DIR) Post #AAWGcbpDo7F6FOkQpE by devinprater@dragonscave.space
2021-08-20T14:40:46Z
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@jlcrawf @zens Right now is actually the *best* time to work in accessibility! Right from the beginning. When that "oh it'll happen one day" comes, it'll be too late. The interface will be hardened, the API's set in stone, the sound drivers and latency may be too laggy for quick, smooth screen reader use, but not bad enough that a non-disabled person would notice with Bluetooth headphones in. So why not start now?