Post A9RLVcBecytUEXmQS0 by Wildebeest@spinster.xyz
(DIR) More posts by Wildebeest@spinster.xyz
(DIR) Post #A9RCAAwxne8W5hbvPc by susannunes@spinster.xyz
2021-07-19T05:03:16.862872Z
2 likes, 1 repeats
I started reading the Kindle version of Helen Joyce's book, and, while it started out well, the minute she used false pronouns to describe George "Christine" Jorgensen by calling HIM "she" and "her," I was ready to quit reading. People, you can't sit and talk about a movement of lies if you yourself are doing it to describe someone. It completely destroys every point you are trying to make.Language matters. It is half the battle in dealing with this trans insanity.
(DIR) Post #A9RCABWPfqUbreCEfQ by sansar@spinster.xyz
2021-07-19T05:23:08.026054Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@susannunes just started Abigail Shrier's book. Similar apologist approach (genuine trans people are wonderful!!! They are the best of all people!!!!), but still listening because a lot of it is bang on and points out the absurdity of what is going on. Not perfect, but progress that these books are even being published.
(DIR) Post #A9RCAC0Bt8JPM08156 by Childfree@spinster.xyz
2021-07-19T05:55:55.155538Z
3 likes, 0 repeats
@sansar @susannunes That's the one thing that has kept me from buying Shrier's book: she parrots the "true trans" garbage. I'll probably check it out from the library and try to skip those parts.
(DIR) Post #A9RCCTJYUaa7ctGyLA by Piss_Ant@spinster.xyz
2021-07-19T06:05:35.852288Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@Childfree @sansar @susannunes does she? This was not the impression I got but I havent read the whole thing yet
(DIR) Post #A9RFlAkxmXhk4GKZEm by skullhoney@spinster.xyz
2021-07-19T06:34:21.533742Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@Piss_Ant @Childfree @sansar @susannunes Stock is the true trans proponent, that we should understand AGP or whatever (have not read hers yet because of this.)Shrier says Gender dysphoria is still legitimate when caused by social contagion. Joyce in the intro to hers says that TRA’s are not doing any favors to the TIM and TIF that speak for and that her intent is not to hurt trans ppl. Will finish it tonight .
(DIR) Post #A9RGfqaVRPIU1QSpns by Ladyfat@spinster.xyz
2021-07-19T06:55:43.441452Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@skullhoney @Piss_Ant @Childfree @sansar @susannunes *eye roll*
(DIR) Post #A9RGpLz05HrbzxSDFw by Piss_Ant@spinster.xyz
2021-07-19T06:57:26.682386Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@Ladyfat @skullhoney @Childfree @sansar @susannunes ?
(DIR) Post #A9RGu5Qn3DBk6zi2ka by Ladyfat@spinster.xyz
2021-07-19T06:58:17.874453Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@Piss_Ant @Childfree @sansar @skullhoney @susannunes all the “poor transsexuals” *further eyerolls*
(DIR) Post #A9RGw5yQ0NlaNCOeNk by Piss_Ant@spinster.xyz
2021-07-19T06:58:39.731762Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@Ladyfat @Childfree @sansar @skullhoney @susannunes oh I seeeeeee
(DIR) Post #A9RH44LBxXVdcsqoSm by Ladyfat@spinster.xyz
2021-07-19T07:00:06.100245Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@Piss_Ant @Childfree @sansar @skullhoney @susannunes just can’t with the “true trans” brigade at the moment. Just CAN’T!
(DIR) Post #A9RLVcBecytUEXmQS0 by Wildebeest@spinster.xyz
2021-07-19T07:44:55.893011Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@susannunes Look at it from the perspective of a normie with some doubts, or someone freshly peaked, who still has a lot of sympathy for trans people they perceive as genuine but wants to find out more from the other side. They need to be reassured that this is not about hatred or hurting people, and they would very likely be put off by 'misgendering' and not engage with the material. There is a delicate line to thread here.
(DIR) Post #A9RO7n3qqW9os6Sflw by Flick@spinster.xyz
2021-07-19T07:03:33.002348Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@skullhoney @Piss_Ant @Childfree @sansar @susannunes I’m half way through Joyce. I continue to think that it’s deliberate: the TRAs are going to find something that they can point to to discredit the book, she’s making it harder for them by not cruelly using male pronouns for poor ickle Jazz, whom the public sympathise with because they’ve seen his ongoing abuse on TV. (As it turns out, they’ve come up with a weak anti-semitism argument instead. They were always going to find something.)Remember, you are not the target audience of the book. If anything, the switching of pronouns when someone transes is going to highlight the ludicrousness of it. I’m more annoyed by the lack of references.
(DIR) Post #A9RO7neidReEiRi7Em by grace_hawthorn@spinster.xyz
2021-07-19T08:14:47.140613Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@Flick @skullhoney @Childfree @Piss_Ant @sansar @susannunes same, i think this too. (and the 'anti-semitism' argument is so weak, they're showing themselves as idiots). i'm annoyed by the lack of references too and then i think she's writing as a journalist, not an academic so the referencing etiquette is different. But it would have been helpful. we're not the audience for this. I'm not reading it to learn new things particularly, i'm reading it to know what the people i want to peak are reading so i can reference it. and for some of the straightforward language because i need that too. It depends what the outcome we want is - do we want books that reflect where we (us, specifically) are now or do we want books that people will engage with, nod along to and find themselves agreeing with? Much as i love Sheila Jeffreys and Janice Raymond, they're not going to be the ones that do it. That's for later....
(DIR) Post #A9RgqygOHYxx7bBVTc by Flick@spinster.xyz
2021-07-19T08:24:36.629454Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@grace_hawthornVery much agree with you agreeing with me, but Shrier is also a journalist and managed references. @Childfree @Piss_Ant @sansar @skullhoney @susannunes
(DIR) Post #A9RgqzBaPZv4gLmQ6K by FeartnTired@spinster.xyz
2021-07-19T08:27:45.486648Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@Flick @grace_hawthorn @Childfree @Piss_Ant @sansar @skullhoney @susannunes I haven't seen the book yet. But I do take your point about references. Would it be worth it to write to the publisher? Nothing can be changed on this edition, but they could print the reference list on their website?
(DIR) Post #A9Rgqza2wdU9uDDxE8 by grace_hawthorn@spinster.xyz
2021-07-19T08:35:08.458824Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@FeartnTired @Flick @Childfree @Piss_Ant @sansar @skullhoney @susannunes yes def worth asking them. it's helpful to everyone to have at least a bibliography for people who want to read more....
(DIR) Post #A9RgsXL8uebatmzPKC by grace_hawthorn@spinster.xyz
2021-07-19T08:09:35.290872Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@Wildebeest @susannunes i think this is really true. I think that we are not the primary audience for this book or for Kathleen Stock's.... they're writing for people who haven't spent the last few years digging into this, and understanding what it really means. of course i'd rather she went straight at it, but i think first it would alienate the people we want to be coming with us and second, it's more (easy) ammunition for the TRAs to throw back at us. As a strategic thing, i can swallow it because we're up against a profoundly embedded victim narrative and it's diversionary to give them room to dig into this.
(DIR) Post #A9RgsXsotRXmaEkIoi by FeartnTired@spinster.xyz
2021-07-19T08:18:53.166014Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@grace_hawthorn @Wildebeest @susannunes I totally agree.you can't fight - you just hate trans people - with full on, no pronouns, repeal the GRA etc. It just plays into their hands. And it alienates the more reasonable voices among the transsexuals. Progress is progress. I still think the middle ground will prove unsustainable, but that does need proof.the TRAs can't seem to make up their mind what their latest demand is, which only shows up they are batshit. Use their pronouns and they claim you didn't do it sincerely enough - that is going to really peak the general public. If they will not allow space for women, space for men (sorry, space for vulva owners, space for ejaculators) and another one for themselves and their flag waving batshit friends. It's really pointing up the question "but WHY do you insist on waving your penis at women who don't want to see it". And we don't get there all at once.And if those with friends who have Gender Dysphoria end up on a different side of the room to those who've been damaged by life with an AGP, we're going to have to accept that somehow some way.It amazes me these books are being published, and read.
(DIR) Post #A9RgsYMF83503UVng8 by Brookryn@spinster.xyz
2021-07-19T08:23:48.234830Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@FeartnTired @grace_hawthorn @Wildebeest @susannunes it's a good gentle introduction to the insanity. The compromises are helpful for normies and you can see by the response, it's all smears, they got nothing
(DIR) Post #A9RgsYoxPI33UXwjR2 by FeartnTired@spinster.xyz
2021-07-19T08:29:51.157775Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
the deeper into the batshit you wade it seems harder to believe that there are vast swathes of people who know absolutely nothing, no context, and most of their assumptions if they do think about it are wrong. I miss my ignorance. It was nice.@Brookryn @Wildebeest @grace_hawthorn @susannunes
(DIR) Post #A9RgsZKrUfZL5UsDAG by grace_hawthorn@spinster.xyz
2021-07-19T08:34:06.499696Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@FeartnTired @Brookryn @Wildebeest @susannunes it really really was. I find myself nostalgic for the days when the worst i was raging about was the sex-trafficking of teenagers. In retrospect, that felt like a walk in the park compared to this. and yes, this has been below so many people's radars. and that's a huge part of the problem, they'd moved so far before it broke the surface.
(DIR) Post #A9RnQBG67IG9zA3V9k by susannunes@spinster.xyz
2021-07-19T12:53:14.107124Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@Flick @skullhoney @Childfree @Piss_Ant @sansar The fact is she is not going to convince the trans mob by writing the book in the first place. She undercuts her entire argument with this inaccurate use of pronouns. If people can't change sex, then pronouns can't be changed. I don't think I am going to finish the book because of this brazen inconsistency. Her misuse of the pronouns ruins the book. I would pull it out of circulation and rewrite it to make it accurate.
(DIR) Post #A9RnQBkEJGMXUc9Z7g by Flick@spinster.xyz
2021-07-19T12:59:04.117641Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@susannunesIt’s not the trans mob she’s trying to convince, it’s the general public, the people who think TIMs are all harmless post-op HSTS and that doctors wouldn’t give teenage girls harmful drugs. If the pronouns bother you that much then absolutely, stop reading it. You’re not likely to learn much from it, other than good ways to frame the argument if/when you have a conversation about the subject with one of those members of the general public that she’s written it to educate. @Childfree @Piss_Ant @sansar @skullhoney
(DIR) Post #A9Rzlq1wvENby5X0EK by Mariposa@spinster.xyz
2021-07-19T15:02:27.196116Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@grace_hawthorn I think there's a place between using correct sex pronouns and full-on radfem analysis like Sheila Jeffreys and Janice Raymond. Agree that the general public aren't ready for the latter. But using wrong sex pronouns is already getting entrenched. It's empowering for many to realize you can stop doing that. Language really does matter.@Flick @Childfree @Piss_Ant @sansar @skullhoney @susannunes
(DIR) Post #A9RzlqWR5slZUdnLkW by grace_hawthorn@spinster.xyz
2021-07-19T15:06:26.436938Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@Mariposa @Childfree @Flick @Piss_Ant @sansar @skullhoney @susannunes it does, i agree with you... i think she's aiming this at the people who don't even know there's an issue and i kind of understand why she's doing it. To be honest, i don't know what i'd do in that conversation because it's an endless diversionary rabbit hole to get into the pronouns shit and can take you away from what you're trying to talk about....
(DIR) Post #A9RzlqxNTiJiqCOrk8 by Mariposa@spinster.xyz
2021-07-19T15:09:28.214874Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@grace_hawthorn "endless diversionary rabbit hole" yep- I can see where if she hadn't caved on the pronouns, every interview would begin with, why did you misgender? Yet, we've already given so much ground, they've already penetrated the collective consciousness so much with the pronoun crap, I feel there's value in refusing to do it. Of course, you'd probably sell fewer books...@Childfree @Flick @Piss_Ant @sansar @skullhoney @susannunes
(DIR) Post #A9RzlrSZbjGqOwzmMq by susannunes@spinster.xyz
2021-07-19T15:12:54.252661Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@Mariposa @grace_hawthorn @Childfree @Flick @Piss_Ant @sansar @skullhoney The thing is, she can publish her book at Spiniflex, which recently published the good "Transgender Body Politics" by Heather Brunskell-Evans. The latter actually uses quotation marks when she uses any of the trans lexicon. That would have been entirely okay. I am really a stickler about the importance of language on the whole "gender identity" issue. It isn't just because I am a teacher by trade. Language has been the bludgeon these "genderists" have used to browbeat the public in trying to get the public to accept their insane and destructive ideology.
(DIR) Post #A9RzlruvuHxJouGQZU by Clariana@spinster.xyz
2021-07-19T15:20:55.528740Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@susannunes @Mariposa @Childfree @Flick @Piss_Ant @grace_hawthorn @sansar @skullhoney "Transgender Body Politics" by Heather Brunskell-Evans... The what?You see, this is the problem, I have not heard of this book and I'm committed rad fem so how many people have not heard of this book? And yet "Trans" is out there today provoking Twitter storms.
(DIR) Post #A9S09Abka8CmRrP0mu by susannunes@spinster.xyz
2021-07-19T15:19:22.786452Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@grace_hawthorn @Flick @Childfree @Piss_Ant @sansar @skullhoney Janice Raymond was on this issue DECADES before Helen Joyce, and people are STILL talking about it and it is still getting censored. Ditto for Sheila Jeffreys. Both women are hugely influential on this issue.
(DIR) Post #A9S09B6wi99u0bzvPc by grace_hawthorn@spinster.xyz
2021-07-19T15:23:18.787834Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@susannunes @Childfree @Flick @Piss_Ant @sansar @skullhoney i know, that's my point. They are brilliant, and they are really really important. I don't mean 'later' for us. I mean 'later' for the general public. They don't read Janice Raymond and Sheila Jeffreys and they're not going to. Feminists read them. And then women like Joyce use them as the foundation of laying it out for the public. Of course they're incredibly influential, i'm not for a minute suggesting they're not. i am, though, writing this from a country where there is currently an "anti-lockdown" riot going on in London, with groups of men picking a fight with the police. On the day that ALL the restrictions have been lifted. This is not a fantastically smart public we're talking about here.
(DIR) Post #A9S1GkjMmBbISk90am by grace_hawthorn@spinster.xyz
2021-07-19T15:14:12.910535Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@Mariposa @Childfree @Flick @Piss_Ant @sansar @skullhoney @susannunes i know. and i agree. and like i said, i'm not sure what i would do, because it's not, i suspect, about selling the book, but about getting as wide a readership as possible as a counter their presence in collective consciousness. And totally, on the interviews - that's the only thing it would be about if she'd done that, and it would have been written off as feminist bigotry.one of the hardest things, i think, about activism and advocacy is swallowing stuff we really don't like to get to a better outcome. My advocacy friends call it having a "shit-eating grin". We have to save the 'purity' pieces - and the hard red lines - for between ourselves because basically if people aren't ready, they stop listening. We have to wrap it in ways that make sense to people who aren't us. And the relentless paper-cuts this gives us are so fucking painful. It's the hardest thing we do, actually. Practice is so much easier in so many ways, even though what we're listening to is hard. But we can be very straightforward about it.
(DIR) Post #A9SCbfirgrGcVW5Ts0 by skullhoney@spinster.xyz
2021-07-19T17:12:14.874342Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@Clariana @susannunes @Childfree @Flick @Mariposa @Piss_Ant @grace_hawthorn @sansar Transgender Body Politics" by Heather Brunskell-Evans— I found out about that one through a youtube interview with another activist, perhaps Graham https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDKm-XcazcsThe whole thing is quotable, it’s pretty short and damn sweet
(DIR) Post #A9SCqqTTzt5YCJ7z2O by Clariana@spinster.xyz
2021-07-19T17:47:36.218121Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@skullhoney @Childfree @Flick @Mariposa @Piss_Ant @grace_hawthorn @sansar @susannunes Thank you this sounds great. €6 on Kindle? Buying that this evening...
(DIR) Post #A9SMoHuMXhURxD7UAa by Mariposa@spinster.xyz
2021-07-19T17:09:51.375405Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@grace_hawthorn More thoughts on pronouns: I think that if Abigail Shrier had NOT used wrong sex pronouns, she would not have been invited to testify before the Senate Judiciary committee against the Equality Act.On the other hand, WHRC USA, since the beginning of the year, has testified on 27 bills re sports, child transition, restrooms, and other GI stuff - in 16 state legislatures and never once compromised language. So there's that.@Childfree @Flick @Piss_Ant @sansar @skullhoney @susannunes
(DIR) Post #A9SP9enEqq9sv86Ysq by susannunes@spinster.xyz
2021-07-19T15:21:34.563730Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@grace_hawthorn @Childfree @Flick @Piss_Ant @sansar @skullhoney The censorship is relatively recent in Raymond's case. After all, the late libertarian psychiatrist Thomas Szasz gave a glowing review of the book years ago when it first came out.