Post A9Nrn9exql6ms53cSe by Wildebeest@spinster.xyz
(DIR) More posts by Wildebeest@spinster.xyz
(DIR) Post #A9NdHXf7fu70gmAB3g by socjuswiz@spinster.xyz
2021-07-17T12:01:36.364178Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
Guess it's time to make half of Spinster hate me!I think @meghanmurphy is being quite reasonable in the paragraph in the screenshot, and IMO some of the people in @Ladyfat's thread are misrepresenting what she's saying.(I don't want to talk behind anyone's back but I also don't want to tag in every single person who I disagree with, so I'm just referencing the thread, I hope that's ok.)Firstly, I've seen some people write things like "even softcore is degrading" and "even amateur porn is gonzo."Well, yes. But also, no.I'd like to point out that in terms the visible content on screen, some "porn" is literally just two women gently massaging each other to orgasm or something. It would probably not even fall under the definition of pornography laid out in Dworkin & MacKinnon's Civil Rights Ordinance.Although that sort of stuff is probably a niche. I agree that the vast majority of porn is clearly degrading and that's a proven fact as far as best selling titles are concerned. (Bridges et al. 2010) But nothing Murphy said contradicts this anyway.As for consent, what happens behind the camera, and the ties the producers & publishers of "less bad" porn have to the horrible rest of the industry, it's most likely a similar situation. I.e. most of it horrible, with some exceptions:Some women certainly seem to buy into the empowerment crap and feel fine doing OnlyFans and such stuff on the side, although the platform probably tries to scam women into the task and its mere existence is messed up in a way. Some performers seem to have strict limits on what they do, e.g. no male contact, and successfully retain those boundaries. (Katerina Kozlova is an example I think. No not the tennis player, a lesser known model who produces erotica/porn with a focus on "sweet." However, arguably pedo-like at times.) Some photographers like Petter Hegre seem to try to capture the beauty of women's anatomy instead of portray them as vulgar objects, though it's still arguably objectification (making women into pretty ornaments). I've been told that the studio X-Art just has models have sex with their partners in the videos they produce, which all seemed very "clean" back when I watched a few of them a long time ago.I'M NOT SAYING that the things above are "good" or even "ok." (I tried to include a counter-point to every point as you see.) For various reasons they're probably all still problematic. But the point is that they're worlds apart from the incredibly nasty shit that permeates the mainstream, like facial abuse, double penetration, bukkake, BDSM, step-sister/step-daughter crap (probably fuels a lot of real-life family-internal assault), and so on. Conflating all of it into one is not very realistic and will make porn watchers, libfems, etc. feel justified in thinking "they have no idea what they're talking about" and completely block out anything you say.I think a lot of people are missing this IMO crucial part of what Murphy is saying: (paraphrased) "The man who watches 'amateur' porn where everyone is consenting is probably not as bad as the one who watches 'facial abuse'. BUT ALSO, probably there's still a conversation to be had there." (Like the criticisms of the "less bad" things I mentioned above?)To me it doesn't sound at all like she's "defending porn" or saying "women shouldn't criticize men who watch softcore porn" or any such thing, only that you could have meaningful conversations with men who watch limited types of porn, and perhaps gain their support on many topics. You might even have them understand that the "less bad" porn can also be very reasonably criticized, sometimes heavily so, which might or might not convince them to quit. Either way, they could be an ally in opposing the mainstream porn industry, opposing prostitution, or some topic entirely unrelated to the sex industry.
(DIR) Post #A9NdHYEDZQBWRcaClE by Ladyfat@spinster.xyz
2021-07-17T12:50:11.614481Z
3 likes, 0 repeats
@socjuswiz @meghanmurphy that’s nice darling, I’m not biting.
(DIR) Post #A9NdlA6DqUhyIUxkCO by HebrideanHecate@spinster.xyz
2021-07-17T12:54:37.346444Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@Ladyfat He’s a creepy fucker, Becs, many of us have him blocked, shit stirs a hell of a lot, always has done, a disingenuous little shit.
(DIR) Post #A9NfgD0PoQixlu0pO4 by HebrideanHecate@spinster.xyz
2021-07-17T13:07:22.039487Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@Ladyfat He’ tried it on with Lang once, ages ago…that was interesting.
(DIR) Post #A9Nps4qixifLUYmGH2 by Ladyfat@spinster.xyz
2021-07-17T15:11:15.325437Z
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@HebrideanHecate I can imagine 😂😂😂.
(DIR) Post #A9Nrn9exql6ms53cSe by Wildebeest@spinster.xyz
2021-07-17T15:28:12.112868Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@socjuswiz @meghanmurphy You're right (especially about the conflating looking clueless to observers), and she is right. There will always be people within any ideology who see any kind of compromise or alternate view on a matter as a betrayal of the ideology overall. Radical feminism is not free of it. In veganism, it can be something like, 'wearing used leather shoes is better than buying new plastic shoes', because it does go against the idea of avoiding animal products as far as possible... but if you look at the whole picture, it can be better for the environment. Same with choosing to not see men who watch "normal" (softcore, with no visible abuse) porn as irreedemable and beyond even talking to. I'm not sure how much I agree or how much what porn someone *really* watches can be vetted, but I can see how a man who already chooses to avoid abusive material may be a potential ally, since he already appears to want to avoid harming women.But that's a conversation not everyone wants to have, and that is their right, too. 🤷 What you wrote, especially as a man, is not going to change their minds.Personally, I think ends justify the means. Compromise in pursuit of a goal is inevitable. Talking to people helps.
(DIR) Post #A9ORvGISecKi7dhGEa by Sycaid@spinster.xyz
2021-07-17T22:16:39.133730Z
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@socjuswiz @meghanmurphy Honestly I think a big issue is that a lot, and I truly do mean a lot, of people have absolutely shitty reading comprehension. It doesn't matter where one is on the political spectrum and one's beliefs and disbeliefs; it's a widespread problem.Just because they can read a few paragraphs does not mean they actually understand what it is they're reading. We saw the same thing happen with JK Rowling's original article she posted to her website; so many people who claimed to have read it, but oh so clearly not understanding what she wrote. They then spread disinformation that their supporters then ate up.Unfortunately, this has been an issue that has plagued humanity since writing became a thing, and it's never going to go away. :blobsad:
(DIR) Post #A9ORxGdKNEhdkGPfyS by meghanmurphy@spinster.xyz
2021-07-17T22:17:59.329396Z
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@Sycaid @socjuswiz Alas radical feminists are no more intelligent than anyone else.
(DIR) Post #A9OTGMjC2Qwc6TpMB6 by sansa@spinster.xyz
2021-07-17T13:36:07.714113Z
3 likes, 0 repeats
@socjuswiz @meghanmurphy both you and Meghan in the screenshot (not sure about her wider claims on the topic; i won’t put words in her mouth and it is possible she discusses everything i am saying here) are talking about pornography use from the perspective of intervening with men’s pornography use, like viewing pornography is just a bad behavior that men engage in that we need to approach them on and fix. this approach may be worthwhile with the men in your life who don’t understand why pornography is bad, and you’re welcome to approach them about it (might even work since you’re a man, who knows?). but to frame this as a feminist concern, in my opinion, shifts focus away from where it should be – which is the well-being and rights of women. pornography and prostitution always threaten our rights and our mental and physical well-being.as an individual, you may want to approach men about their porn use. but i personally resent the idea that this is some kind of feminist undertaking that we must burden ourselves with. there are anti-pornography movements that deal with men’s sexual and mental health relating to porn use, including materials to support them. there are men who run those programs and i commend them for reaching out, offering help, and trying to help men fix damaging behaviors. i support them, but it does not address why i oppose pornography on feminist grounds: the damage done to women.i also used to fully believe that there is good porn and bad porn. you raised counterpoints that are, in my opinion, completely convincing from a pro-woman stance. “we don’t know if these women are truly consenting to sex” is enough for me. the escalating nature of pornography use – the need to go more and more shocking to get a sexual thrill, all the while getting further away from viewing women as fully human – is also compelling to me. finally, i oppose the commodification of women’s bodies even when we “consent” to it, because those choices are not made in a vacuum. they’re often made because of social pressures, financial pressures, or both.if you think women do onlyfans because they genuinely view sex as empowering, with no financial motive whatsoever, you are being naive. to believe that this can then be applied to women as a class is just stretching it incredibly far.this approach basically seems to center the individual choices that men make and the individual conversations/interventions that individual people can have with them to make them stop. that’s fine…but i fail to see how we need to spin this as a feminist undertaking when, clearly, the treatment of women (both in porn and by porn users themselves) is a footnote, not the main topic.
(DIR) Post #A9OTbTkB9GW9wbM7wu by LuvGreenTea2019@spinster.xyz
2021-07-17T22:35:38.104939Z
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@meghanmurphy @Sycaid @socjuswiz "Alas radical feminists are no more intelligent than anyone else."Why do you have to come to a lively women's forum such as Spinsters and tell us that? "Alas radical feminists are no more intelligent than anyone else."That could be true, but we are more resistant to mainstream brainwashing which is in itself is a valuable trait. And, by the way, a lot of the things that appear on Feminist Current were posted first on rad fem sites. I'm sure even you know that, but "radical feminists are no more intelligent than anyone else."
(DIR) Post #A9OTbUF1IbBhUFml1M by meghanmurphy@spinster.xyz
2021-07-17T22:36:27.436847Z
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@LuvGreenTea2019 @Sycaid @socjuswiz because it's true? Why would they be? It's not an insult. It's just reality.
(DIR) Post #A9OUff2pAsMa6adS9Q by Mary_Collier@spinster.xyz
2021-07-17T22:46:39.993461Z
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@socjuswiz @meghanmurphy "The man who watches 'amateur' porn where everyone is consenting is probably not as bad as the one who watches 'facial abuse'."I don't understand this distinction. "Amateur porn" has nasty things in it, too. Amateur porn, to me, seems like just a niche genre where it is supposed to look like slightly more "authentic" sex with women that don't look like "porn stars." Some of it is made by studios, some by independent sex workers, and a lot of it is uploaded without the woman's consent. In fact the more "authentic" and unscripted it looks, the more likely it is that the woman did not consent to making pornography for a mass audience. The flip side of that is that men who are into the "amateur" genre will by definition enjoy those vidoes the most.
(DIR) Post #A9OUffZRDcS1jjtUzA by meghanmurphy@spinster.xyz
2021-07-17T22:48:25.473366Z
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@Mary_Collier @socjuswiz Depends on the porn, then, doesn't it? I mean, that's kinda the point. There is -- or should be -- SOME nuance in this conversation.
(DIR) Post #A9OVDscdCSGa3qhUvo by LuvGreenTea2019@spinster.xyz
2021-07-17T22:52:46.564838Z
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@meghanmurphy @Sycaid @socjuswiz Meghan, is there anything on Feminist Current that the dreaded rad fems haven't already been talking about for months or years? There is nothing on Feminist Current that can't be found on Spinster, Ovarit, or any random rad fem site. I'm sure you know it. In the US, the best source of information is WOLF, and some, but not all, lean towards radical feminism. Males in women's sports...rad fems knew that was bull spit from the beginning.Males in women's prisons....rad fems were on it before anyone else...
(DIR) Post #A9OVDt7pKTDhcbIPYW by meghanmurphy@spinster.xyz
2021-07-17T22:54:35.922467Z
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@LuvGreenTea2019 @Sycaid @socjuswiz FC has been around since 2012 dude. And yes, absolutely. What's the other feminist podcast that's been around, interviewing survivors, academics, authors, activists, lawyers, researchers, etc etc etc for the last decade?
(DIR) Post #A9OVUqEvJKNlaxhQ24 by Mary_Collier@spinster.xyz
2021-07-17T22:56:11.336854Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@meghanmurphy @socjuswiz I can see where you are coming from. I just don't see how to break down pornography genres into "less harmful" and "more harmful" categories all that easily. It's all so harmful. I agree that "not all men", so to speak, are sick misogynists who just get off on seeing women hurt in porn. Some of them have probably just grown up in a culture where it is completely normalized and never questioned it. They may listen to why it is harmful. Will they listen? I don't know.
(DIR) Post #A9OWoSLbx0INEzkCxc by hanafiyyah@spinster.xyz
2021-07-17T23:06:32.737509Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@Mary_Collier @meghanmurphy @socjuswiz Can only speak from experience here, but I am loosely in some same circles with men who grew up in the West, in porn culture, using porn daily and with even kids showing each other porn. Today, those men are either porn free or trying to get away from it. This is in religious circles, so of course their concern is mainly religious and moral implications, however I am seeing more and more frequently they are also sharing articles re fight of Laila Mickelwait and there is mention of trafficking, drugs addiction, abuse, etc, in porn industries. Maybe I am overconfident but I think that a lot of men would be open to the idea that porn usage is unethical, but first thing that they need to step away from it or demonstrate willingness to do so on any level.I attended a while back Nordic Model Now presentation on men and pornography/prostitution, which I thought would be more about openness of having those conversations with men and boys but I found it really lacking, so I do think this is a conversation that is not being had enough, in favor to throw our hands up and say "men are bad, wish it was a women only commune" ... but I think - I hope - deep down we know this is a response that does not benefit women.
(DIR) Post #A9OXw4fhxcrY5ALCUq by Yemaya@spinster.xyz
2021-07-17T22:52:38.299252Z
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@Mary_Collier @socjuswiz @meghanmurphy Well to me, porn is porn.Porn scorn
(DIR) Post #A9OXw5AY6xX5colpZI by Ismat@spinster.xyz
2021-07-17T23:23:21.922917Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@Yemaya @Mary_Collier @meghanmurphy @socjuswiz I think amateur porn is worse because it’s mostly made where the womean is not paid, most times consent to publish the video is missing. Why not tell men that they should get therapy for their porn habit?
(DIR) Post #A9OXwkrt4jYox6MWJM by LuvGreenTea2019@spinster.xyz
2021-07-17T23:15:45.998486Z
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@meghanmurphy @Sycaid @socjuswiz Meghan, I think we need to relax and cool down before we say something we end up regretting. I do respect you, and what you have done.Rad fems catch hell from everyone, and are much maligned. I didn't expect it from you...
(DIR) Post #A9OXwlLfI1NcRSIIj2 by meghanmurphy@spinster.xyz
2021-07-17T23:25:07.461014Z
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@LuvGreenTea2019 @Sycaid @socjuswiz I don't regret being honest and never will. Anyway, I'm out for the night. You know, off the internet, with real people, probably many of whom watch porn. Have a good night.
(DIR) Post #A9OZn5H8XxK7FygljE by Ismat@spinster.xyz
2021-07-17T23:30:57.605972Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@Yemaya @Mary_Collier @meghanmurphy @socjuswiz I am not saying reject these porn watching men, just educate them and persuade them to change. And be consist and firm about it.
(DIR) Post #A9OdCgz1moVpJ97Z0y by Mariposa@spinster.xyz
2021-07-18T00:06:42.905892Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@sansa Excellent post. This encapsulates my feelings exactly: "as an individual, you may want to approach men about their porn use. but i personally resent the idea that this is some kind of feminist undertaking that we must burden ourselves with. "@socjuswiz @meghanmurphy
(DIR) Post #A9QNgXwYkbQJ0a6GC8 by meghanmurphy@spinster.xyz
2021-07-18T20:39:34.174699Z
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@sansa @socjuswiz I was talking about men in my life and how I have conversations with and approach them. I'm also saying that, broadly, hyperbole and vilification is an ineffective way of getting through to people who are not evil people. If they are evil, fuck em, but most men are not evil...