Post A7ddGQ0ob1fFn2HCs4 by Teresa@glindr.org
(DIR) More posts by Teresa@glindr.org
(DIR) Post #A7cI0iexCnvGnLlQgq by Ismat@spinster.xyz
2021-05-25T16:08:14.289432Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
Lost two more women from my follow list because I won’t agree that white women are completely innocent in the exploitation of the whole non white world and play absolutely no part in perpetuating white supremacy. Please block me if you have the same notions. The women also asked me why I am here talking to white if I “hate” them so much. Same old racist stuff I hear from Americans that why are you here if you don’t like the racism? Both implying that everything belongs to white people and I don’t like it I should go away. Ever since I became active on spinster I realize more and more that not only do we women of color need separatism from men, we need it from white women too.
(DIR) Post #A7cICVlcxsbmHjVa52 by Lilitu@spinster.xyz
2021-05-25T17:22:01.053885Z
2 likes, 1 repeats
@Ismat Here’s my question. And I’m seriously asking.How far do we have to dissect down our movement, before we get to a point where we can work together?I see this all the time, I’m not talking about just the schism of race. I see it with lesbian vs. straight. Hell, I see it with bi vs. lesbian. Single vs. married and childed. Separatist vs. well, everyone.I won’t deny that these schisms exist, and some of them I feel extremely strongly about, myself. On some level, it’s even more painful to feel attacked by your own side.But the thing is, we can dice ourselves up in so many ways that we’re cut down to a point where we’ll never succeed.In the place I grew up, there was a big schism between the native born population of POC, vs. the immigrant population. Do you think that wouldn’t happen with women of color too, if y’all rounded your wagons? Give it a month.None of this is to deny your pain. What I’m asking is how do we figure out how to work with people we don’t like, and maybe even people we think are fundamentally misguided and wicked?Because the fact is, Kamala Harris is out there supporting your erasure.Almost anyone in power is, regardless of sex, race, sexuality, et al.This is exactly how the powerful keep control over us. They make us hate each other so much that we can’t even talk. It goes right back to slavery — call the white ones indentured servants and the black ones slaves and watch them duke it out for their scraps.I don’t have an answer. But I’m just appealing to you to take a breath. I hear you, and I’m sorry you’re feeling unwelcome here, and I try my best to listen to the experiences of women different from me.I’ll be here with you, frustrated and sad, as we navigate the hopelessly broken landscape of our culture.But we need every woman. None of us can do this alone. Please stick it out with those of us doing our best. I’m not leaving. I can’t. This is the last stand for women.
(DIR) Post #A7cIENz6s4Jmj8hzCS by AnungIkwe@spinster.xyz
2021-05-25T17:35:28.958049Z
3 likes, 1 repeats
@Lilitu @Ismat Feminism isn't divided by race. It's divided by racism. There's a big difference. If you want solidarity, act sisterly. Radical feminism isn't perfect. There was a reason why we needed a WOC tent at Michfest. Look into it.
(DIR) Post #A7cIEOTx1OzKGn8cGu by Lilitu@spinster.xyz
2021-05-25T17:53:54.673144Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@AnungIkwe @Ismat I do my best. I'm not against whatever demographic of women having spaces to serve their needs, at all.I'm just saying as a movement I think we need to stick together, and we need to figure out how to work within that. I can't stand some of the women I'm standing next to either. But they're women, and I stand for all of us.
(DIR) Post #A7cMFnCuykCv3n5r1c by blingring@spinster.xyz
2021-05-25T18:40:55.066011Z
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@Ismat I know it's a core part of CRT, anti racism and all, but a woman not believing in systemic racism, white supremacy etc. does not a racist make. It baffles my mind how so many people, women in particular, are picking and choosing which part of Theory is good (CRT) and bad (queer). It all originates in the same place with the same ideological foundations and goals. Here's a starting point if you're interested: https://newdiscourses.com/tftw-critical-theory/It's unfortunate they blocked you. Blocking just hurts the blocker from having an open mind to different views and growing. I disagree with you but see no reason why I'd block you. Be well.
(DIR) Post #A7cMFnhP9OasaLMCXo by AnungIkwe@spinster.xyz
2021-05-25T18:45:43.691667Z
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@blingring @Ismat No. Not believing in systemic racism, white supremacy etc. is pretty much the definition of a modern racist. If you don't believe systemic racism or white supremacy even exists, you have a mental problem that goes way being racism.
(DIR) Post #A7cMFo5VhlsNn6dS7M by blingring@spinster.xyz
2021-05-25T18:49:25.470690Z
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@AnungIkwe @Ismat No, this is the definition of a racist.
(DIR) Post #A7cMFoTyEpRT0y4zFA by AnungIkwe@spinster.xyz
2021-05-25T18:52:49.922526Z
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@blingring @Ismat If you don't believe that systemic racism exists or that White supremacy exists, you're a racist and you need to work on yourself.
(DIR) Post #A7cMFotqgc8sJEBea0 by Ismat@spinster.xyz
2021-05-25T19:14:41.824714Z
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@AnungIkwe @blingring I feel unconsciously most white people think they are more intelligent, more capable then anyone else. Even the nicest of nice white people.
(DIR) Post #A7cMFpJN9iYhaO82Ma by Gelatinousrube@spinster.xyz
2021-05-25T19:32:31.160306Z
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@Ismat @AnungIkwe @blingring I think it's often caged in the language of privilege. The assumption that more privilege=more opportunities for learning, advancement. Better nutrition. Lower ACEs score.
(DIR) Post #A7cMSUJsVwOeFHP1dY by FemaleIsNotAFeeling@spinster.xyz
2021-05-25T16:24:56.589836Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@Ismat @Ismat -White woman here (American). Racism is a huge problem I spent tons of time and energy on here worrying about and thinking about. I blocked so many ignorant racist asshats on Spinster within my first few months on the platform, that my feed was almost empty afterwards. Got many blocks too. I got into many arguments with users over racism with those who refused to acknowledge systemic racism even exists etc and almost considered leaving because of it...but I came to realize that the GC movement has A LOT of Republican conservatives within our movement (unfortunately) and A LOT of them are just straight up racist.You need to just block them and move on. Women on here who are racist are perpetuating Patriarchy and white male supremacy (whether they realize it or not) and they do not represent all White GC women and certainly don't represent the best of us. They won't ever understand - you can talk your ear off at them, but at the end of the day they don't *want* to see their part to play, so they refuse to even consider that they may be part of a toxic system and get very defensive.Just be confident in what you know is right and continue your journey and your fight. But please don't broad brush all white women, because of a select few. We need each other to win this fight. All women of every race andn creed. ❤
(DIR) Post #A7cMSUjkxj63XXVgyO by Ismat@spinster.xyz
2021-05-25T16:34:38.133049Z
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@FemaleIsNotAFeeling The thing is, both these women I was talking to are lefty women. Not republicans. There are lot of good men. But how do we know which ones won’t harm us? From white women, how do we know which ones won’t be racist to us. I have had lefty friends who I would never imagine would be racist to me, suddenly were. We need separatism from men because we can’t tell the good ones from the bad ones. Every man is misogynist to some degree. Its the same with white women. White supremacy is so pervasive and its so subconscious. I know so many wonderful white women on here but I have had years of experience telling me that they each other’s friends and see me as an outsider. Many WOC here talk to me privately and tell me they are too scared to say anything openly here in case people start being racist to them. They have all expressed interest in an online space for WOC only so we can freely express ourselves away from the white fragility of majority of white women here.
(DIR) Post #A7cMSVBlHbUwwOc3cm by FemaleIsNotAFeeling@spinster.xyz
2021-05-25T16:56:54.607442Z
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@Ismat I totally hear what you're saying and will not invalidate your experience. It makes me sad that this shit is going on, but it's nothing new (as you no doubt know). 400 years of systemic slavery birthed my nation and made it what it is today - we're still sick and deep in the system. It's gunna take a long time and many generations of re-teaching culture in order to start on the right track.
(DIR) Post #A7cMX5dZi4Uh8toHPE by BCLADY@spinster.xyz
2021-05-25T19:38:59.607079Z
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@AnungIkwe @Lilitu @Ismat IF I CAN'T FIND ANYTHING, DO YOU HAVE ANY LINKS?
(DIR) Post #A7cMZkMbGHxK228YM4 by Ismat@spinster.xyz
2021-05-25T19:10:19.058751Z
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@Lilitu Kamala Harris is out there working within a white society’s framework. To be successful she has to do what whatever she has to do to be successful. I am in an Indian feminist group. Those who are upper caste women, who have benefited from the caste system don’t negate it. As feminists, they abhor the caste system and do hold upper caste women accountable. Its only hardcore fundi Hindu women I have seen defending upper caste women. Never feminists. We WOC have our differences and fight and argue but the difference is we see each other as fully human, fully capable. As complete equals. Thats what’s missing between us and white women. Most of them consciously and unconsciously do not see us as equals, because of 400 years of white supremacy telling them white people are above everyone else. The treatment I receive from men of not seeing me as an equal because of misogyny is the same as white women who don’t see me as an equal. Even in here most muslim women don’t disclose they are Muslim because they will face Islamophobia. I saw a woman here Emma using a meme made popular by RSS a hindu extremest wing that was instrumental in ethnic cleansing of muslims in Gujarat. No one said anything except me. We are with all women, but for our own sake we need separatism, until white women change their culture, a significant majority of them. You guys become uncomfortable and whiny even if I say something like, “Why are white men like this?”
(DIR) Post #A7cMZkkLpyxFDhFWNM by AnungIkwe@spinster.xyz
2021-05-25T19:36:12.463395Z
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@Ismat @Lilitu There have always been white feminists who refuse to see their racism and deny that White supremacy even exists. They're just like the white men who refuse to see Patriarchy and deny it's existence. They always blame the women of color who can't deal with their cultural ignorance for causing disunity among feminists when they themselves are the ones to blame.
(DIR) Post #A7cMeoqa1GVhNwZvg8 by blingring@spinster.xyz
2021-05-25T19:40:23.448700Z
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@PARADOXICAL003 @AnungIkwe @Ismat yeah, dictionaries are just for fun. My bad.
(DIR) Post #A7cQp5BoVrXsmbeynY by blingring@spinster.xyz
2021-05-25T20:27:02.751606Z
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@PARADOXICAL003 And BLOCK. Be gone, troll. @AnungIkwe @Ismat
(DIR) Post #A7cS4goT0o4nlfkHTs by grace_hawthorn@spinster.xyz
2021-05-25T20:41:05.659598Z
3 likes, 0 repeats
@PARADOXICAL003 @blingring @AnungIkwe @Ismat take your racist, anti-semitic arse elsewhere. you are not welcome here. blocked.
(DIR) Post #A7cWVTJLifGxWnDUo4 by AnungIkwe@spinster.xyz
2021-05-25T19:45:09.774096Z
2 likes, 1 repeats
@BCLADY @Ismat @Lilitu My friend Amoja said it better than me:"By introduction, racism and the racial stereotypes it spawns are so subtly interwoven into the fabric of Western society that very often, even those with the best of intentions will display bad cultural manners. This does not necessarily mean one is a bad person. Sometimes people just don't know any better."This guide is to help people avoid some of the obvious as well as not so obvious pitfalls of unwitting racism and anti-semitism. This does not try to talk anyone out of being racist or anti semitic. Rather, it seeks to help those with good and righteous intentions to refine behavior and attitudes bred in cultural ignorance. Cultural Etiquette is intended for all people of all races and nationalities and creeds, not necessarily just white people because no one living in Western society is exempt form the influences of racism racial stereotypes race and cultural prejudices and anti semitism. I include antisemetism in the discussion of racism because it is simply a manifestation of racial and cultural bigotry."https://archive.org/details/cultural-etiquette
(DIR) Post #A7cmamJI6iJRAPk2mu by MaidenMotherCrone@spinster.xyz
2021-05-25T20:32:27.933489Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@Ismat White woman here. It's really disappointing to see so much white fragility in this space.
(DIR) Post #A7cxzK8z44pIXvpMWG by fpcgggc@spinster.xyz
2021-05-26T02:38:40.977174Z
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@Ismat If you went the separatist route for women of color you’d also maybe want separatism based on where your from. I say go for it. Why not? There was a GC woc subreddit as some point.
(DIR) Post #A7cyOmzgwCbjGMcjku by AnungIkwe@spinster.xyz
2021-05-26T01:46:01.386729Z
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@Lilitu @Ismat The first step is always admitting you have a problem.
(DIR) Post #A7cyOnXMuzXuwoNdFQ by Ismat@spinster.xyz
2021-05-26T01:54:35.816387Z
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@AnungIkwe @Lilitu If you look at this thread, its only you being supportive and others straight up being racist or being angry at me for talking about racism, just like men get angry when women talk about misogyny. White fragility is a huge problem within western feminism and they just won’t admit to any of it, let alone work on it.
(DIR) Post #A7cyOo0n9b58Q4986q by BCLADY@spinster.xyz
2021-05-26T02:43:16.415503Z
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@Ismat @AnungIkwe @Lilitu QUESTION WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THE CONCEPT OF BROWN FRAGILITY AND BROWN COMPLICITY?https://www.yorku.ca/edu/2020/07/03/brown-complicity-in-white-supremacy/https://newdiscourses.com/tftw-brown-fragility/http://www.artforourselves.org/wtf-is-going-on/brown-complicity-or-black-liberation-responding-to-anti-blackness-in-non-black-latinx-communitiesOH AND IT'S SHITTY THAT EMMA USED A MEME THAT WAS CONNECTED TO GENECIDE WITH A CULTURE SHE DIDN'T UNDERSTAND. I DON'T THINK I HAVE SEEN ANYONE ACKNOWLEDGE THAT.I LIKE THAT EMMA TALKS TO OTHER USERS OUTSIDE OF SPINSTER BECAUSE SHE DOESN'T BUDGE WITH ISSUES IN REGARDS TO MEN. I DON'T THINK IT IS FAIR THAT RACISM IS FAR MORE COMPLICATED THAN SEXISM IN MY OPINION. CONSIDERING THERE ARE DIFFERENT CULTURES THAT INTERACT, THAT RACES ARE MUCH MORE OF A "SPECTRUM" THAN SEX EVER COULD BE AND BECAUSE IT COMBINES A LOT OF CONCEPTS TOGETHER. IT'S LIKE DEBATING DIFFICULTIES BETWEEN VERBAL LANGUAGES VS RECOGNIZING FACIAL EMOTIONS. LANGUAGE EFFECTS EVERYDAY LIFE, IT IS INTERWOVEN IN SOCIETY, IT CHANGES OVER TIME.EMOTIONS ARE PRIMALLY INGRANED AND TRANSCEND CULTURE IN MOST WAYS.
(DIR) Post #A7d7mWaySToIwOSHiq by AnungIkwe@spinster.xyz
2021-05-26T03:18:18.867489Z
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@BCLADY @Ismat @Lilitu Brown complicity? Sounds like some really fucked up colonial bullshit to me. The idea that a "Brown" person has the power to be a partner or accomplice in systems of racism and oppression sounds like something straight outta the IDW.
(DIR) Post #A7d7mX42iP3wOY3V20 by BCLADY@spinster.xyz
2021-05-26T04:28:25.134306Z
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@AnungIkwe @Ismat @Lilitu Depends on what you define as colonial. Less International Dark Web and more Critical Race Theory. Is Black Lives Matter colonial? What is colonial?A paper with the term:https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/14746689.2021.1884177The Authorhttps://brocku.ca/human-rights/meet-the-team/#leela-bioAnother Paper with the term:https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/14746689.2021.1885112The Author:https://www.redlands.edu/study/schools-and-centers/college-of-arts-and-sciences/undergraduate-studies/english-literature-and-writing/meet-our-faculty/priya-jha/So if you consider critical race theory colonial or the fact that these two terms recently originated from proponents of critical race theory, both of whom happen to be what seems to be of South Asian heritage and considered brown but also they are both educated by western society, are they colonial.However I would not consider them at all as part of the IDW, instead the IDW is more likely to critique the concept because they critique critical race theory. Take what you will from that.
(DIR) Post #A7dB0N80km9rUnCcNc by MaidenMotherCrone@spinster.xyz
2021-05-25T20:20:10.948055Z
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@Lilitu @Ismat Imagine a man saying this to you when you talk about your experience of sexism. "Why divide ourselves up? We're all just people."
(DIR) Post #A7dB0Nduq9g95k866q by Lilitu@spinster.xyz
2021-05-26T01:14:06.199649Z
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@MaidenMotherCrone @Ismat We have a common cause that encompasses all women and affects every one of us in extreme ways. It’s not about whether we’re all just people, it’s that we are all under the same threat.I don’t like working with anti-choicers and biphobes. But I do it every day, because this is more important, and because I understand I probably don’t fully grok why they are the way they are. I’m not some sort of paragon of virtue.This is existential. This is literally our existence, in the vernacular of reality.If you wanna lose this fight squabbling over ideological purity or your disappointment in the human condition, that’s your call. I’m not willing to do that.
(DIR) Post #A7dEftlQcRE6Ru8HDs by AnungIkwe@spinster.xyz
2021-05-26T04:54:54.791050Z
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@BCLADY @Ismat @Lilitu I said calling "brown people" complicit is some fucked up colonial bullshit. I don't trust anyone spewing vitrol about BLM, intersectionality or CRT for good reason.
(DIR) Post #A7dEfuQCArpuULCplY by Ismat@spinster.xyz
2021-05-26T05:17:43.166487Z
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@AnungIkwe @BCLADY @Lilitu She is hinting I should talk about “brown complicity” and not about white supremacy because it makes themuncomfortable. Which I do in Indian circles. There are probably 8 Indian women here and none of them are complicit in any white supremacy. She went and found all these articles because she felt so bad about me talking about white supremacy lol.
(DIR) Post #A7dEfv3XoZJOSNcG6C by BCLADY@spinster.xyz
2021-05-26T05:45:38.280977Z
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@Ismat @AnungIkwe @Lilitu Dude, that is a message full of assumptions.I wanted to see if you knew of it as a concept because I was going to show a very specific example about how critical race theory can work against minorities. I was trying to figure out if you understood that critical race theory can be used to re-enforce racism but whatever.It's not like a have a really specific example or anything, that I was leading up to. Yup, this is all about how anyone's discomfort is about white supremacy. Because you can see both if I am comfortable and how bad I feel. Oh also my race. You caught me and everyone else. Any one who doesn't immediately confirm your perspective is a white supremacist. Questioning, hell even trying to make sure each side understands and has the same definitions, all of it is actually white supremacy. Even if they aren't white. This is why I don't bother with racial conversations online. It's best to just keep this sort of stuff local, irl where you can get actual communication.
(DIR) Post #A7dEm4ASqoEMSAmfHU by AnungIkwe@spinster.xyz
2021-05-26T05:22:08.339581Z
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@Ismat @BCLADY @Lilitu Her questions make my brain hurt. And they wonder why women of color don't want to work with white feminists? The defensiveness!
(DIR) Post #A7dEm4ex1ScJyj30ng by BCLADY@spinster.xyz
2021-05-26T05:46:46.329973Z
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@AnungIkwe @Ismat @Lilitu Your brain hurts because I am asking you to think, but you just want to call me white instead.OK.
(DIR) Post #A7dMvsweEOKuAwVxFA by Teresa@glindr.org
2021-05-26T06:59:42Z
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@MaidenMotherCrone @Ismat This is a class issue, working class women were used by the upper classes as wetnurses to their babies and as nursemaids, then later as governesses. Certainly this was so in UK and much of Europe. That doesnt mean that some white women didnt benefit from racism. For so long women werent allowed to work, or be educated and be self sufficient. Men held the purse strings and control of them. In the USA and other parts of the world this may have been different, and of course structural racism has been built in. My feeling is that dividing women into smaller groups lessens our power to force change. Tiny groups of men have managed to change society in a decade, women dont have that type of power, we need to unite.
(DIR) Post #A7dMvtVO9E7puglhOS by NoniRose@spinster.xyz
2021-05-26T07:13:50.295665Z
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@Teresa @MaidenMotherCrone @Ismat we need to get beyond partisanship and each other faults. stop expecting perfection in our allies, we can't allow anything to separate us on this one historically important issue. Women- the word is already taken.
(DIR) Post #A7dbdOApOjiMq8mkoi by MaidenMotherCrone@spinster.xyz
2021-05-26T09:20:16.363899Z
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@Lilitu @Ismat WoC talking about racism is not squabbling nor is it about ideological purity, just like when women in general talk about sexism. You could make the argument about bringing sexism up in the workplace. "We're all on the same team, we're working towards something bigger than ourselves as individuals, why squabble over the way just some of us are treated?"You're asking WoC to stay silent about racism because you think it's bad for the group.Fucking what.
(DIR) Post #A7dc0kK7DBWICGGcKG by Ismat@spinster.xyz
2021-05-26T03:45:21.791541Z
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@BCLADY @AnungIkwe @Lilitu Brown complicity with white supremacy started with the rise of the British Empire, they are called chammach, brown sahibs etc. Anti blackness is very pervasive in the Indian community in the US simply because they have picked up on the culture here. I have endless arguments and fights in every desi group I am in. In my Indian feminist group, no arguments because we all in agreement on our thoughts on racism. I am very connected to the Latino community here in the US and see the colorism and racism within it but it’s roots are in white supremacy. They all see themselves in relation to the caste system within the US. About Brown fragility, I am yet to meet a Brown person who gets upset, defensive and angry if I talk about racism and engages in whataboutry. I am sure it exists but I have yet to come across it. The meme Emma posted was a straight up Islamophobic one. You don’t need to know any culture to understand it. She was miffed that I said “why are white men like this?” So I don’t know what you are talking about that she doesn’t budge with issues regarding men. She also thinks no woman is to Blame for anything she does because of sexism which is frankly bonkers and I think its more to do with her not wanting any responsibility for the havoc white society causes. I agree racism is far more complicated. Comparing it to language and facial expressions is not a good analogy because although westerners think facial expressions are universal, they really are not. I actually use very different facial expressions and body language interacting with Americans then I would do with my own people. I have heard my Black friends call it code switching. Race is not like sex. But humans as a whole are a tribal people. When we see someone who looks like us whether its male or female our brain thinks this is “our person”. Its very difficult to let go of tribalist thinking. I have tried really hrd since I was 16. When I first came to the states, I was told just stay with Indians and I didn’t listen, I made friends with everyone regardless of race, class but as years went by I realized you just can’t be friends with white people, majority of them sooner or later show their racist colors. I have lived in many countries and USA is horrifically racist. I have many european friends and not a single friendship broke over racism. Culture will definitely change. My father was a student in the US in the 70s and white people would’t even sit next to him in the bus. When he went to a barbershop, the owner threw him out saying, “I don’t touch n****” things have improved since then but white supremacy is very much here, in society, in online spaces, its everywhere. Being defensive about it, being angry at women talking about it, won’t make it go away.
(DIR) Post #A7dc6RinHo0UF1WoIi by MaidenMotherCrone@spinster.xyz
2021-05-26T09:33:08.227838Z
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@NoniRose @Teresa @Ismat "We can't expect perfection in our allies" so WoC are wrong to talk about racism? K.
(DIR) Post #A7dc6SDzPoxbnm7ivQ by Teresa@glindr.org
2021-05-26T10:04:46Z
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@MaidenMotherCrone @Ismat @NoniRose that is not what is being said. I dont tolerate racism from anyone and i also dont tolerate people interested in driving wedges between women.
(DIR) Post #A7dcGvyXeop2y5tZ5c by MaidenMotherCrone@spinster.xyz
2021-05-26T10:07:00.153566Z
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@Teresa @Ismat @NoniRose How is WoC talking about racism driving wedges between women?
(DIR) Post #A7dcGwP83y5cIYKnWy by Teresa@glindr.org
2021-05-26T10:09:07Z
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@MaidenMotherCrone @Ismat @NoniRose it depends how its being done.
(DIR) Post #A7dcOhJm2ObjpEWoSm by Teresa@glindr.org
2021-05-26T10:08:10Z
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@MaidenMotherCrone @Ismat @NoniRose and in the UK class is a massive difference between women since feminisms origins there has been an issue with working class women feeling excluded. I speak as a w/c woman. But i still see the category of woman as overwhelmingly important within all the divisions.
(DIR) Post #A7dcSRaoRg5UDGHhEO by MaidenMotherCrone@spinster.xyz
2021-05-26T10:10:23.529213Z
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@Teresa @Ismat @NoniRose Only if you get white women having a defensive knee jerk reaction to it. That's what's causing the division here. WoC speaking up about racism is always a positive step. If they stay silent, it continues. You have to be willing to listen.
(DIR) Post #A7dcVLKkAoBdfY9PAu by MaidenMotherCrone@spinster.xyz
2021-05-26T10:11:54.886571Z
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@Teresa @Ismat @NoniRose But it's still important that we talk about class or we don't liberate women. Same as racism.
(DIR) Post #A7dcZrhRmKibD2vUR6 by Teresa@glindr.org
2021-05-26T10:12:56Z
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@MaidenMotherCrone @Ismat @NoniRose we do listen. Every woman has a voice in the womens movement.
(DIR) Post #A7dcd139TIwh4pa4q8 by MaidenMotherCrone@spinster.xyz
2021-05-26T09:14:58.844175Z
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@Teresa @Ismat The only way we can unite properly is to be better when it comes to racism. Don't ask WoC not to talk about racism because of the good of group solidarity. We should be listening, not silencing. This isn't about dividing us up, it's about making sure the group works for everyone.
(DIR) Post #A7ddCFkwmlfkp6rtJo by Teresa@glindr.org
2021-05-26T08:06:31Z
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@NoniRose @Ismat @MaidenMotherCrone 100% agree we cant splinter, all women are threatened by this even the ones that dont think they are.
(DIR) Post #A7ddGPVcT0i8EHgIFM by MaidenMotherCrone@spinster.xyz
2021-05-26T10:13:51.429597Z
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@Teresa @Ismat @NoniRose So stop telling women of colour to shut up.
(DIR) Post #A7ddGQ0ob1fFn2HCs4 by Teresa@glindr.org
2021-05-26T10:15:48Z
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@MaidenMotherCrone @Ismat @NoniRose no one has done that you have issues love.
(DIR) Post #A7dgijGqt0OZUSy848 by grace_hawthorn@spinster.xyz
2021-05-26T10:20:00.030662Z
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@MaidenMotherCrone @Teresa @Ismat @NoniRose how do we talk about misogynoir if we can't talk about race? how do we talk about the experimentation on black women's reproductive bodies if we can't talk about race? how do we talk about the ways in which white women use whiteness to patriarchally bargain, if we don't talk about race? how do we talk about how white women have - and continue to - betray black women if we can't talk about race?of course it's difficult for white women. it's extremely difficult. that's the point, and it's our difficulty to live with and work through. class also matters. how do we talk about solidarity if we can't talk about how middle-class women have traditionally exploited - and still do exploit - working- class women by outsourcing their dirty jobs to them? silence doesn't make it go away. we can hold both the bonds and shared experiences of womanhood together, and the solidarity of that, while also understanding we need to work together on the ways we have been separated, been betrayed, refused to see, and betrayed each other. It's not either/or. white women have a lot of work to do (and i include myself in that). Middle-class women have a lot of work to do. We can do hard things. We can do the work. it's our feminist job to do the work.
(DIR) Post #A7dkYiDULnrr8psHpY by Ladyfat@spinster.xyz
2021-05-26T11:42:54.511727Z
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@Ismat I’m your opinion has this attitude become better or worse since the Floyd/BLM movement?
(DIR) Post #A7dkeg43GWAOCiIyUS by blingring@spinster.xyz
2021-05-25T18:57:17.783391Z
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@AnungIkwe @Ismat Oh, dictionary not good for you? I guess it's good for the definition of 'woman' though 🤷♀️ You just explemified why women are divided with your name calling, well done.
(DIR) Post #A7dkfP8tfLmS0luyn2 by AnungIkwe@spinster.xyz
2021-05-25T18:59:36.512560Z
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@blingring @Ismat You have SERIOUS issues. This defensiveness and false fragility is why women of color can't work with certain white women. This is why certain white women need to check themselves.
(DIR) Post #A7dkfPYQ8SCHHvrMZc by blingring@spinster.xyz
2021-05-25T19:00:09.861207Z
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@AnungIkwe @Ismat You're actually making me laugh, thank you.
(DIR) Post #A7dlvOwiGRV7zPPXCi by Ladyfat@spinster.xyz
2021-05-26T11:58:13.153441Z
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@Ismat In your opinion has this attitude become more or less prevalent since the Floyd/BLM movement?
(DIR) Post #A7dy93C986yW29u8sy by terf_fret@spinster.xyz
2021-05-26T14:13:08.095346Z
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@Lilitu @AnungIkwe @Ismat It seems to me that if women of color say, "Our needs are not being met here" and the first and only response is "Oh please don't leave, that would have negative effects", then it risks turning into a guilt trip. I understand the fear of division, but isn't there something beyond that? Wouldn't it be better to say, "what do you need from us to consider staying connected here?" while acknowledging at the same time that women of color are also going to need spaces to themselves.
(DIR) Post #A7e0gM12NK9Ps0iU7s by Lilitu@spinster.xyz
2021-05-26T14:42:59.795026Z
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@terf_fret @AnungIkwe @Ismat But the issue is, that isn’t what I said, or the content of my question was. Let’s remember, I started my reply with an earnest question for how to deal with this, which no one ever responded to, based on the premise I was given, which is that there’s really nothing we can do and most women are just bad. I don’t ask questions that are already answered, I ask the question that comes next.I also said at least 2 or 3 times I encourage women with particular needs to have their own spaces. They just proceeded to do the same old thing where they imagine some completely different position for me and assume a bunch of stuff about who I must be behind the screen and huff off.The reality is, people aren’t in this conversation for any earnest reason most of the time, as @BCLADY said quite eloquently. And the sad part is, this is the entire purpose of CRT. This is its purpose. To keep marginalized groups from ever being able to work together.Looks like they’re winning.
(DIR) Post #A7e3RUyR5RwNAi6jkO by BCLADY@spinster.xyz
2021-05-26T15:14:30.382826Z
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@Lilitu @terf_fret @AnungIkwe @Ismat THERE ARE ALWAYS PEOPLE WATCHING.THERE ARE ALWAYS PEOPLE THINKING, IT'S OK. IT'S NOT JUST CRITICAL RACE THEORY, IT'S ALSO THE INTERNET THAT TRAINS PEOPLE TO BE LIKE THIS. SPINSTER HAS THE OPTION OF WORKING TO BE DIFFERENT. SO FAR THERE IS CONVERSATION. THAT IS GOOD.IT'S OK FOR PEOPLE TO TAKE BREAKS FROM CONVERSATIONS BUT ONLINE, WHEN THINGS ARE WRITTEN, IT MAKES IT LOOK LESS LIKE A BREAK AND MORE LIKE A RETREATE. THIS IS UNHELPFUL FOR ACTUAL DISCUSSION. WHEN PEOPLE BECOME TRAINED IN DECONSTRUCTIVISM THEY NEED TIME TO THINK SO THAT THEY CAN BUILD SOMETHING WELL. A GOOD ARGUMENT, A GOOD COMMUNITY, A GOOD SENSE OF INTERNAL VALUES.ANYWAYS, I DON'T WANNA WIN ONLINE, UNLESS IT INVOLVES TALKING DESPITE PROBLEMS AND DISAGREEMENTS OR CHANGING CANADIAN LAW.IT'S NICE TO BE UNDERSTOOD.SLOW AND STEADY, OPEN AND PATIENT AND EATING BABBIES INSTEAD OF DRUGGING THEM.
(DIR) Post #A7eArUPoU8KYeFFnLk by Lilitu@spinster.xyz
2021-05-26T14:46:02.476160Z
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@MaidenMotherCrone @Ismat If we were in the middle of a union effort to try to stop some horrible atrocity from occurring imminently, I WOULD say that.I said nothing of the kind. I encouraged them to have spaces as they need. You are fabricated nonsense I never said and I have no reason to engage with that.
(DIR) Post #A7eAtXVXxTNUonufQ0 by Ismat@spinster.xyz
2021-05-25T20:36:36.502469Z
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@Lilitu Also I am a bit offended that you think we feminists of color haven’t “rounded our wagons together.” There are so many forums that cater to WOC only, yes we need more and no, we don’t experience the humiliation we do with y’all white women. “Give it a month” see, the racism is right there, sandwiched between words of support. We see you.
(DIR) Post #A7eAtXu0UWwa2fMCXo by Lilitu@spinster.xyz
2021-05-26T01:11:01.929465Z
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@Ismat What does it have to do with racism? It’s the nature of people, doesn’t matter what group it is. There’s always more ways to dice us apart, and that’s what happens in any group if it has that kind of mindset.I’m the one saying people are fundamentally alike. 🤷♀️ If that’s not what you can or want to hear right now, that’s fine, but don’t put words in my mouth.
(DIR) Post #A7eL0f9GwoZ45IWtsG by AnungIkwe@spinster.xyz
2021-05-26T16:58:07.610971Z
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@terf_fret @Lilitu @Ismat I don't speak for all WOC, but constantly demanding that Women of Color comment on how bad our race is or admit that our race is "complicit" in white supremacy is racial harassment and it needs to stop. I'm not going anywhere unless I get kicked out for speaking my mind. The racists can leave.
(DIR) Post #A7gCvtX5d65lvmnztY by Lilitu@spinster.xyz
2021-05-26T01:17:24.380119Z
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@Ismat How is that not patronizing that you think so little of her spine or her intelligence, because of her race, or because you are unwilling to concede some brown women may not think exactly like you?This is the same sort of mindset as Biden banning menthols because it’s what black people smoke, to “save them from themselves.” It’s insulting.I would not bother to engage at all with someone I didn’t see as my equal. Why would I waste my time?I am not debating what you’ve observed or experienced re: racism. What I am saying is that your proposed solution to it will only result in the failure of the movement as a whole, and no improvement in racism (or sexism, homophobia, etc) can ever result from it.This is existential.
(DIR) Post #A7gCvttmGkEx49Q7G4 by Ismat@spinster.xyz
2021-05-26T01:24:39.591405Z
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@Lilitu Who are you talking about? Instead of asking white women to stop being racist, you are instead blaming me for being angry about the racism. See, this is why we need separatism from white women like you.
(DIR) Post #A7gCvuHWqREsFoX5HM by Lilitu@spinster.xyz
2021-05-26T01:28:11.940224Z
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@Ismat I’m not addressing your emotions at all. I’m addressing your argument.
(DIR) Post #A7gMgPqUipZf3Y8ifY by Ismat@spinster.xyz
2021-05-27T17:57:03.051054Z
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@Ladyfat I don’t think so. It has always existed. For me personally, since BLM I was disappointed that Black women are not being centered as much a Black men even by other women. And I am very much into centering Back women and other women of color. I am completely disappointed in lib feminism but coming to Spinster and reading almost every thing on Ovarit for a year has me convinced that rad fems are not that different. If you see what I mean look at this thread and see the amount of white fragility and straight up racism from so called feminists. If this is the condition here, you can only imagine whats it like in the regular world. Thats why we need some separatism from white women, most of who are racist, suffer from white fragility and always want to lead, boss over and speak over us. There are white women who are aware, have done work on themselves, see us as complete equals but they are unfortunately a minority.
(DIR) Post #A7gOsHRG0MmQMj7VsO by Ismat@spinster.xyz
2021-05-27T18:06:46.041873Z
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@Ladyfat I don’t think so. It has always existed. For me personally, since BLM I was disappointed that Black women are not being centered as much a Black men even by other women. And I am very much into centering Back women and other women of color. I am completely disappointed in lib feminism but coming to Spinster and reading almost every thing on Ovarit for a year has me convinced that rad fems are not that different. If you see what I mean look at this thread and see the amount of white fragility and straight up racism from so called feminists. If this is the condition here, you can only imagine whats it like in the regular world. This thread would have been much worse with lots of white women yelling at me for talking about racism but I have most of the racist women here blocked. So it wasn’t as bad. Thats why we need some separatism from white women, most of who are racist, suffer from white fragility and always want to lead, boss over and speak over us. There are white women who are aware, have done work on themselves, see us as complete equals but they are unfortunately a minority.
(DIR) Post #A7gOsHr8S9TpezEBDE by Icarus_girl96@spinster.xyz
2021-05-27T18:22:17.792891Z
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@Ismat I really enjoy reading your POV on things, especially in relation to race/racism/things specific to being Indian. I honestly can’t understand the defensive reactions of white women to women talking about racism (tis exactly like the classic behaviour of men when women speak up about sexism) It is such an important aspect of life, humanity and feminism - I think if you hold racial prejudice and racist views (and refuse to examine and better yourself) you cannot truly be a feminist at all. What can we (white women) do individually and collectively to make spinster better and centre WoC on here? Obvs call out racism and block racists but is there’s anything more subtle or specific?
(DIR) Post #A7gOwR2iEsRhJJcYRE by vonjagerbomber@poa.st
2021-05-27T18:24:50.093942Z
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@Icarus_girl96 @Ismat Have you ever thought to examine your prejudice? What if not all people are equal?
(DIR) Post #A7gPV65AA4IuREIM76 by GalacticTurtle@spinster.xyz
2021-05-27T18:29:58.563346Z
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@Icarus_girl96 @Ismat (personally I wish there were a chat room or club feature here dedicated to certain topics or demographics) I haven't spent much time on Ovarit but I've definitely heard some interesting tales.
(DIR) Post #A7gQac6Ie4Sf8x1N32 by Icarus_girl96@spinster.xyz
2021-05-27T18:42:04.570254Z
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@GalacticTurtle @Ismat That’s a good idea, that way WoC could talk and organise without white women if they wished to do so, and lesbians could talk and organise without straight women if they wished to do so, but we’d still all have the main site to organise and talk with each other. May also be good for various topics that are more contentious (like Covid and marriage and separatism) It’s pretty disappointing to see some of the reactions to valid (I kinda hate the word valid cos it’s so overused 😂) observations/grievances about something that directly affects a huge number of women. I think I saw someone say that denying white supremacy wasn’t racist 😐
(DIR) Post #A7gUOlxMZjKi3JRywC by Ismat@spinster.xyz
2021-05-27T19:11:12.262712Z
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@Icarus_girl96 No one is born racist, we grow up in a racist society, benefit from it and are socialized into it. I grew up in a lower middleclass family that to some extent exploited poor women who were usually of the lower caste by employing them as household help on low wages. I and other women from my family completely benefited from it, I didn’t even see anything was wrong with it until I was in college. Then I took responsibility for it. I admitted to having benefited from the poverty of these women. Confronted the guilt of it. Completely put a stop to it in my family. My mother still needed help but she could hire someone at fair wages and had to treat her employees with respect and give them help that they needed. I also looked and found women who had worked for us previously and gave them money. I worked on myself and changed how I saw women who are less privileged then I am. To the point that I could be friends with them as equals. I talk about it constantly in my friend circle even though I am met with hostility. I openly say its wrong and how we benefit from their poverty. I am completely ready to take the blame, feel ashamed and do something about it. I don’t protect nor excuse the middleclass or uppercaste women because they live under the boot of patriarchy. It starts with taking responsibility, not being afraid of guilt. With seeing our world as it is, a terribly unequal place. By listening with respect who in our society are not treated with equality nor respect. The work I did on myself as regards to class has come in use in America too. I have lived here in the US as a working class woman who was exploited for her labor by the middle class and also a middle class women but I knew enough not to be an exploitive. Having awareness and working on your self is what I ask.