Post A44eh71EfkY6A8R408 by admicos@mastodon.social
(DIR) More posts by admicos@mastodon.social
(DIR) Post #A44dta7QCplLw0i8mW by codesections@fosstodon.org
2021-02-08T19:37:34Z
1 likes, 2 repeats
I continue to really like #rust as a programming language. Even though I'm writing more #raku these days, I still love Rust (and am writing something in it right now).That said, it's increasingly clear to me that Rust is _primarily_ targeted at the Big Tech usecase (aka "at scale") and only secondarily interested in the Free Software usecase.Today's news that the Rust Foundation is reserving *half* of its board seats for Big Tech provides additional confirmation. https://foundation.rust-lang.org/posts/2021-02-08-hello-world/
(DIR) Post #A44eh71EfkY6A8R408 by admicos@mastodon.social
2021-02-08T19:46:35Z
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@codesections Which language isn't targeted at Big Tech at this point?Whenever I see any discussion regarding popularity, there's always this implication of "it's not popular until a big organization uses it".Even outside specific discussions on popularity, seeing people drool over threads like "<corp> is using <language>!!" linking to blogs talking about (relatively) insignificant pieces of infrastructure makes me sad. Where are the individuals? Why focus on the big organizations?
(DIR) Post #A44fIycGMViJ6coH3o by codesections@fosstodon.org
2021-02-08T19:53:28Z
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@admicos > Which language isn't targeted at Big Tech at this point?That was actually almost exactly what my talk at #fosdem yesterday was about!I think #raku does a really good job at being targeted at individuals, though it was only able to do so due to … unique historical circumstances (and, even then, not having the resources that come from rich backers is definitely one of the reasons it took 10+ years for the language to come out)
(DIR) Post #A44fx4dzN0ERNsjktU by admicos@mastodon.social
2021-02-08T20:00:33Z
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@codesections > That was actually almost exactly what my talk at fosdem yesterday was about!Is there any video available yet? I'd like to give it a watch.> I think raku does a really good job at being targeted at individuals [...]I've been meaning to check out Raku (and a long list of other languages) at some point and never really got around to it. I really should at some point...
(DIR) Post #A44g5SJ3HISX5WwNSC by Sandra@idiomdrottning.org
2021-02-08T19:58:11.054571Z
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@admicos @codesections Which language isn’t targeted at Big Tech at this point?That’s right, our Lean Canvas business model targets an agile scrum interative waterfall methodology using the popular and synergistic language named Brainfuck
(DIR) Post #A44g5SllYXQaWaNJD6 by codesections@fosstodon.org
2021-02-08T20:02:11Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@Sandra @admicos > That’s right, our Lean Canvas business model targets an agile scrum interative waterfall methodology using the popular and synergistic language named BrainfuckBut does it have Rockstar™ developers? https://codewithrockstar.com/
(DIR) Post #A44gP4ap9ZCXKmbjyi by codesections@fosstodon.org
2021-02-08T20:05:44Z
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@admicos >> That was actually almost exactly what my talk at fosdem yesterday was about!> Is there any video available yet? I'd like to give it a watch.Not yet, but all the fosdem talks were recorded and should be up soon-ish. I'll be sure to mention it on here when it's up :)
(DIR) Post #A44ghA3zYLbxVrsMZk by Sandra@idiomdrottning.org
2021-02-08T20:05:27.219626Z
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@codesections @admicos Oh, Rockstar is something cool! I thought it was some sorta trademarked corporate development processes
(DIR) Post #A44ghAcjTBOtFc86j2 by codesections@fosstodon.org
2021-02-08T20:09:02Z
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@Sandra @admicos > Oh, Rockstar is something cool! I thought it was some sorta trademarked corporate development processesNope, it was something *mocking* that sort of thing. IIRC, the original inspiration was a tweet about how someone should make a Rockstar programming language so that anyone could tell recruiters that they're a "rockstar developer".
(DIR) Post #A44huB49EkHMLCif2W by sirvertalot@fosstodon.org
2021-02-08T20:10:54Z
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@admicos @codesections Drew Devault's secret project comes to mind, though that's obviously still secret, but is primarily targeted at free software devs.Jai also comes to mind but is also not yet released and is in a weird middle-ground where it's domain specific but also general enough to be better than a lot of other languages out of that domain, and while it has stuff intended for game studios ("house rules") the fact it isn't designed by a committee leaves it without that corporate taste.
(DIR) Post #A44huBXvS269pYeRSC by codesections@fosstodon.org
2021-02-08T20:22:34Z
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@sirvertalot @admicos > Drew Devault's secret project comes to mind [as potentially targeted at individuals rather than big tech]… Jai also comes to mind [with some caveats]I'd probably also put zig on that list, subject to similar caveats.Then there are a bunch of academic languages (e.g., Racket) that aren't always a great fit for Free Software, but are in their own category.I'm not quite sure where to put GNU languages (e.g., guile, gnu-apl)
(DIR) Post #A44jcHhG2q5zbNbmFs by ajmartinez@social.librem.one
2021-02-08T20:41:41Z
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@codesections this doesn’t really bother me in the least. Companies that aren’t going anywhere anytime soon being on the board of my favorite language is probably a good thing for its continued existence and rapid development.
(DIR) Post #A44lUozqYKvwTGs8oK by emacsomancer@fsmi.social
2021-02-08T20:42:40.809774Z
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@codesections Why is Racket not always a great fit for Free Software?@sirvertalot @admicos
(DIR) Post #A44lUpcUEfqGP6x02S by codesections@fosstodon.org
2021-02-08T21:02:48Z
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@emacsomancer @sirvertalot @admicos > Why is Racket not always a great fit for Free Software?I don't have a convincing answer, more of a vague sense. (And, to be clear, Racket isn't a *poor* fit, just not always a great one).But (imo) Racket/PLT scheme's history as an academic project still comes through in the ecosystem. There's a lot of purity/emphasis on learning/minimal syntax, and less on building things.Too many professors and not enough hackers :Drelated https://m.xkcd.com/224/
(DIR) Post #A44lY69REEE0XnvARc by codesections@fosstodon.org
2021-02-08T21:03:24Z
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@emacsomancer @sirvertalot @admicos 2/2I also think (controversial opinion time) that Schemes/Lisps don't have enough syntax for the level of expressiveness that I'd like in a language optimized for free software. (But really explaining that would take a full blog post that I haven't yet written).All that said, Racket's macro hygienic macro system is amazing, and I wouldn't be *nearly* as excited about Raku if it didn't have a similar system mostly implemented (and it's great in Rust too)
(DIR) Post #A44mMBpeNhvYdsYDp2 by emacsomancer@fsmi.social
2021-02-08T21:06:47.182001Z
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@codesections 1/2 makes sense, though, if you want to write cross-platform in a lisp and have a gui front-end, racket's a pretty good choice.2/2 the syntax bit I just don't agree with at all. lisps have nice, comprehensible consistent syntax that make it really easy to mentally parse what's going on. (python, on the other hand, despite both its popular and actual genuine usefulness, has horrible syntax.)@sirvertalot @admicos
(DIR) Post #A44mMCHehaKS2jeaTQ by codesections@fosstodon.org
2021-02-08T21:12:26Z
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@emacsomancer @sirvertalot @admicos > 2/2 the syntax bit I just don't agree with at all. Yeah, I wasn't expecting you too – even if I didn't already know your language preferences, your display name would have been a giveaway! > lisps have nice, comprehensible consistent syntax that make it really easy to mentally parse what's going on. That I 100% agree with. My complaint about lisp syntax is *not* about understanding, it's about verbosity encouraging too many layers of abstractions
(DIR) Post #A44nZowWNaXrf2pQ1o by emacsomancer@fsmi.social
2021-02-08T21:15:22.152351Z
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@codesections So the connection to Free Software being that lisps encouraging too many layers of abstraction make long running projects with a distributed contributor base more difficult?(not that I'm convinced of either premise or conclusion, but just trying to see the connections w.r.t. free software.)@sirvertalot @admicos
(DIR) Post #A44nZpUYL3ldMakb4a by codesections@fosstodon.org
2021-02-08T21:26:08Z
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@emacsomancer @sirvertalot @admicos > the connection to Free Software being that… too many layers of abstraction make… projects with a distributed contributor base more difficult?Actually, the reverse.Imo, most free software projects *don't* have a distributed contributor base—they have 1 primary maintainer. And that person can be tremendously more productive if they can hold the whole codebase is their head at once.(a view inspired by https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13571159 and talking with the author)
(DIR) Post #A44nbAYJWN5oyI9GxU by sirvertalot@fosstodon.org
2021-02-08T21:26:11Z
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@codesections @admicos Yes, definitely, forgot about that one / ran out of chars ;pguile isn't really "general purpose" in the way that the others are, so that makes it less of a candidate I'd say.
(DIR) Post #A44nm7unfPWtyetJmC by technomancy@icosahedron.website
2021-02-08T21:28:11Z
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@codesections @emacsomancer @sirvertalot @admicos in practice it's much more common to run into the opposite problem with lisps; due to the extraordinary flexibility and expressiveness of the language, individual maintainers build up their own language that fits them perfectly but is completely incomprehensible to anyone else.
(DIR) Post #A44oRUd67URoIXKtnM by codesections@fosstodon.org
2021-02-08T21:35:49Z
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@technomancy @emacsomancer @sirvertalot @admicos Well, like I said upthread, this needs a blog post more than a toot thread :D I understand that PoV and a lot of people I respect – including the two of you! – hold it. That means I've thought carefully before disagreeing but, having done so, I do still disagree. But I really need to write that blog post!(I agree that Lisp-curse type problems are still a partly unsolved issue, though)
(DIR) Post #A45PgvZfv0jOVtxT1M by icedquinn@blob.cat
2021-02-09T04:33:16.960825Z
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@admicos @codesections nim :bunhdlurk:
(DIR) Post #A45PijZBXCt5qoaeo4 by icedquinn@blob.cat
2021-02-09T04:33:37.207073Z
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@admicos @codesections technically also Red, but they're courting cryptoshits and chinese venture capital
(DIR) Post #A45PpUxSFOGOZQASJ6 by icedquinn@blob.cat
2021-02-09T04:34:50.342273Z
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@codesections > this was just the language meant to let us write servo> then we fired all the servo developers lol> now its just corpo shitsomeone should get around to euthanizing mozilla :/
(DIR) Post #A45Pwu6BAmyKZOmP8C by technomancy@icosahedron.website
2021-02-08T21:07:50Z
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@emacsomancer @codesections @sirvertalot @admicos the "too expressive" bit made me chuckle. Racket's focus on expressive macros is by far its biggest downside IMO compared to other lisps I've used.
(DIR) Post #A45PwumMdwiSgEW5su by icedquinn@blob.cat
2021-02-09T04:36:09.471925Z
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@technomancy @emacsomancer @codesections @sirvertalot @admicos janet is nice :bunhdlurk:
(DIR) Post #A4E2GyHASJs9OSCDXk by be@fosstodon.org
2021-02-13T08:22:48Z
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@codesections Do free software and big tech have different interests in regards to a programming language? I think we all want a reliable, robust tool that is easy to create efficient programs with.
(DIR) Post #A4E2UfnRxT9k8QpUES by njoseph@social.masto.host
2021-02-13T08:25:29Z
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@codesections @sirvertalot @admicos I think the languages that I'm primarily using these days, except those at work (Java, Go) are not really Big Corp focused, maybe because I'm being deliberate about choosing them.Python, Nim, Clojure, Emacs Lisp
(DIR) Post #A4E323HRfPVsWbm9jc by clacke@libranet.de
2021-02-13T08:30:50Z
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@codesections @admicos Oh cool, another talk to look forward to!*continues to stare intently at https://video.fosdem.org/2021/ *I think there might be a connection between @darius 's "do things that don't scale", said from a Fediverse perspective, and doing things in languages that "don't scale", from a Free Software perspective.
(DIR) Post #A4E76Vki9N4FnvqXOS by bjoern@mastodon.social
2021-02-13T09:17:09Z
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@codesectionsWhat does make a language targeting "Big Tech" and what does a language make targeting Free Software? What are the differences?