Post A3OdUnRLUpKOBsXynw by pettter@mastodon.acc.umu.se
(DIR) More posts by pettter@mastodon.acc.umu.se
(DIR) Post #A3OaPw6HZQW9jugZdo by rysiek@mastodon.social
2021-01-19T12:37:37Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
Every time a user from a bitcoin-themed instance follows me I am reminded I need to write this piece I have in my head about how cryptocurrencies (especially those offering "perfect privacy") are going to be a boon to organized crime and corrupted officials, with no real benefits to the majority of the population.Unless some real friction is introduced that grows exponentially with the transaction amount.
(DIR) Post #A3OaPwGuvt1aGtf4DY by ilja@ilja.space
2021-01-19T12:40:11.792392Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@rysiek You were the first, and until now still only, person who I heard that argument from. So yeah, it would prob be good to have something like that somewhere where people can find it and people can be linked to.
(DIR) Post #A3OaVHVvNmhfbIEE40 by rysiek@mastodon.social
2021-01-19T12:41:05Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@ilja yeah, I really need to get my blog back up! *sigh*
(DIR) Post #A3OcM2rYgYcJSm4T5s by pettter@mastodon.acc.umu.se
2021-01-19T12:39:00Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@rysiek I also have a bunch of Thoughts on that, especially in terms of how the economic logic of blockchains as far as I can tell is exclusively accumulative in existing cases. Have more -> get more.
(DIR) Post #A3OcM3BPUkUqSLMK2K by timorl@qoto.org
2021-01-19T13:01:53Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@pettterThat's my main worry about PoS cryptos. I had some thoughts on designing the economy of those in ways that would avoid that, but implementing such a design would be much less profitable that a more natural one, so I feel it's mostly hopeless.@rysiek
(DIR) Post #A3OcgLpzqaRY6W1Ux6 by pettter@mastodon.acc.umu.se
2021-01-19T13:05:20Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@timorl Yeah, you have to bake it in ground up, and explicitly _not_ worry about buy-in or market share, which is going to be a problem in terms of hype.And if you _do_ end up getting some high valuation at some point, your security calculus is going to be massively unbalanced.It's a mess, and I'm not sure if there's anything you could do that LETS systems don't do better anyway. @rysiek
(DIR) Post #A3OdUnRLUpKOBsXynw by pettter@mastodon.acc.umu.se
2021-01-19T13:06:43Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@timorl I have been meaning to look into GNU Taler in connection to all this, which I hear has a decent approach. @rysiek
(DIR) Post #A3OdUoi2mEHM7xMpTE by timorl@qoto.org
2021-01-19T13:14:39Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@pettterInteresting, I haven't heard about that one, I'll read up on it too.@rysiek
(DIR) Post #A3Of3Glh3qPSwz4BOK by jb55@bitcoinhackers.org
2021-01-19T13:32:04Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@rysiek every Bitcoin transaction is public and broadcasted to everyone. not private at all. cash is more private and is used more in organized crime. It wouldn’t make sense for them to switch to something more public.
(DIR) Post #A3Og0eGpK9V0vUwWTA by pettter@mastodon.acc.umu.se
2021-01-19T13:42:50Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@jb55 > ...about how **cryptocurrencies (especially those offering "perfect privacy")** are **going to be** a boon to organized crime ...
(DIR) Post #A3OgcdFVZMkClNRDs0 by jb55@bitcoinhackers.org
2021-01-19T13:49:43Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@pettter cash is still better in those cases, holding shitcoins is a liability 😆. Then again so is holding fiat 🤔
(DIR) Post #A3OmX71eY0fz6JhzsW by rysiek@mastodon.social
2021-01-19T14:55:56Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@jb55 the '(especially those offering "perfect privacy")' part was important. Talking Monero, z.cash, etc.
(DIR) Post #A3PB5qv0F3x01nLJOS by cjd@mastodon.social
2021-01-19T12:55:51Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@rysiek Similar argument used against TOR, E2EE, Disk encryption, etc.It's not wrong.Tragic cycle: Rulers over-play their hand, society becomes disunited, people build decentralization tech to reduce power of rulers, criminals profit.
(DIR) Post #A3PB5rOmSLlnW9H5o8 by rysiek@mastodon.social
2021-01-19T14:57:44Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@cjd Tor, E2EE, disk encryption do not have this kind of extremely scalable quality of affecting whole economies and political systems as large flows of money do.
(DIR) Post #A3PB5s1m7MxhT5WEaW by cjd@mastodon.social
2021-01-19T15:18:23Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@rysiek The thing is, the people who are dealing with organized crime now are not really trying to ban Monero. Maybe they will in the future, but right now they're mostly asking for backdoors in Signal.
(DIR) Post #A3PB5sQEeQWmgwxliK by rysiek@mastodon.social
2021-01-19T16:14:18Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@cjd and I am not saying anyone should ban Monero. I am sayin Monero developers need to be aware of their responsibility and consider the unintended (I presume?) consequences of what they're building.
(DIR) Post #A3PB5sjNVFq9eJv3YG by cjd@mastodon.social
2021-01-19T16:37:36Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@rysiek Indeed, prediction is hard - even unknowable. Definitely some terrible dystopian narratives centered around anonymous capital. But just as easily they might not come to pass.We programmers, especially FOSS, especially decentralization, have build an entire industry around calling up that which we definitely cannot put down.Behind the blue door maybe the savior of humanity, maybe the Outer Gods, don't know until you open it.Need a better solution than telling people not to code...
(DIR) Post #A3PB5t8tyMFyvTrRKq by pettter@mastodon.acc.umu.se
2021-01-19T16:39:06Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@cjd Is "think, check, and do some research before you code" too much to ask? @rysiek
(DIR) Post #A3PB5tihpEteiWc28u by cjd@mastodon.social
2021-01-19T16:46:17Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@pettter @rysiek Maybe it's reasonable to ask, but definitely not wise to expect.As the 20th century showed, preventing a few dozen nuclear powers from plunging the world into darkness was hard enough. Preventing every kid in the world with an idea from moving fast and breaking things is intractable.We need to think about robust social organizing models, which is hard because we don't even know what we're looking for.
(DIR) Post #A3PB5u9eD4Ro45DY8W by rysiek@mastodon.social
2021-01-19T19:04:12Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@cjd @pettter and yet culture is a pretty good way of directing attention and energy in ways that can be more beneficial. That's kind of what hacker culture is.And it's not about some kid in the basement, it's about established projects with public faces and conference talks and often loads of funding.It is reasonable to ask them if they considered certain possible problematic outcomes, I feel.
(DIR) Post #A3PB5uQfBo3gurB8eu by cjd@mastodon.social
2021-01-19T19:15:42Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@rysiek @pettter You raise a good point, we choose which things we will associate with ourselves and which we will give momentum to.The only crypto projects which have the blessing of the (European CCC-centric) hacker community seem to be the anonymous ones.Your reasoning was in my thinking when I decided not to make PKT a privacy coin, but there aren't many of us who are actually trying to facilitate a kinder gentler future of finance.
(DIR) Post #A3PB5uhgAXfZld8jBI by rysiek@mastodon.social
2021-01-19T19:20:15Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@cjd @pettter perhaps because there is barely any discussion on potential wider societal consequences of privacy coins.Which brings me back to my original point: I need to write that piece finally.
(DIR) Post #A3PB5uxzBuiIaClkbA by cjd@mastodon.social
2021-01-19T19:25:27Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@rysiek @pettter In my opinion what we need is more people in the blockchain space. Ignoring blockchain won't make it go away, centralized black-box bank databases aren't going to last forever.But if everybody who thinks about responsibility in tech dev shuns blockchain entirely then we shouldn't be surprised to see the future written by extremists.
(DIR) Post #A3PB5vItw9RZd4YSCO by wolf480pl@mstdn.io
2021-01-19T19:31:03Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@cjd @rysiek @pettter but how do you convince people who think about responsibility to get involved in a speculative bubble?
(DIR) Post #A3PBZVE1SfGvR2NSDY by rysiek@mastodon.social
2021-01-19T19:36:27Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@wolf480pl @cjd @pettter provide them with an idea on how to make it less of a speculative bubble.Three big research questions that need to be solved for cryptocurrencies to be a way more useful tool are:- what to replace proof-of-work with- how to combat economies of scale (leading to secondary centralisation of mining power)- how to introduce friction that goes up with the transaction amount, so that cryptocurrencies are less likely to be only useful for millionaires
(DIR) Post #A3PCCiJOjt1tJgaZbU by amiloradovsky@functional.cafe
2021-01-19T19:43:31Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@wolf480pl @cjd @rysiek @pettter Proving the infeasibility? A hard problem to solve.
(DIR) Post #A3PCCle4LULZefHcjw by deezthugs@liberdon.com
2021-01-19T19:43:36Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@rysiekJust. Like. Cash.
(DIR) Post #A3PCMZ9FfExVn9Xb7I by rysiek@mastodon.social
2021-01-19T19:45:21Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@deezthugs are you saying "just like cash, which already have such friction, thus no need to reinvent the wheel" or "just like cash which needs such friction added too"?
(DIR) Post #A3PCb3DudsGN7ed03U by deezthugs@liberdon.com
2021-01-19T19:47:59Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@rysiek Underground, criminal enterprises thrive on USD, Euro banknotes. Shall we get rid of cash to save ourselves of “bad actors”? And, along the way lose ANY privacy that law abiding folks may have had?
(DIR) Post #A3PD1WSWZE0LKB5L9s by rysiek@mastodon.social
2021-01-19T19:52:45Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@deezthugs ah, I was waiting for the libertarian brigade to show up! welcome to the thread.first of all, 500EUR banknotes have been deprecated just for that reason - to bring more friction to huge transfers of money (which if happen in cash are often illicit - why would you transfer 2mln EUR in cash, ever?...).secondly, cash already has enough friction in large transactions to force the "bad actors" to use the banking system, which somewhat enables projects like: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Laundromat
(DIR) Post #A3PD8Eve8uTmyxuTJ2 by deezthugs@liberdon.com
2021-01-19T19:53:59Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@rysiek I guess the good news is governments have a really hard time banning math and protocols
(DIR) Post #A3PDNkSrAz3P8Fq3zU by rysiek@mastodon.social
2021-01-19T19:56:47Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@deezthugs I guess you can continue throwing clichés around, or you can try to understand what is being said.funnily enough, when I asked these very questions to the Monero people at FOSDEM, their answer was also the "privacy protection means protecting the bad apples too" cliché.
(DIR) Post #A3PDTHlqlt3FsUMZiS by rysiek@mastodon.social
2021-01-19T19:54:54Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@deezthugs third, "there exist problems with cash" is not an argument for ignoring potentially way bigger problems that can be created by cryptocurrencies.fourthly, it's not an either-or. one *can* have privacy protection for most people (hey, I did infosec for journalists and their sources, I know first hand how important this shit is), and yet accountability for the very very rich.
(DIR) Post #A3PDTI9FMtlb33JGBU by deezthugs@liberdon.com
2021-01-19T19:57:47Z
1 likes, 2 repeats
@rysiek The elephant in the room with fiat money pushers is fiat money, central banks and monopolized “money” systems are easily the single greatest driver of inequality on earth. Its never discussed.
(DIR) Post #A3PDmxR85DNabW3FnU by rysiek@mastodon.social
2021-01-19T20:01:20Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@deezthugs it's constantly discussed. If you go to sites like https://occrp.org/ or https://www.icfj.org/ and look at their work, you might notice that high-level graft and corruption *drives* inequality.if you want to fight inequality, making it easier for corrupt politicians to hide their money is the exact opposite of what you should be doing.central banks and fiat currency is not a great system. give me a privacy coin that has this friction thing, and I might support it myself.
(DIR) Post #A3PIfQKpFu2dgWKW2a by htimsxela@bitcoinhackers.org
2021-01-19T20:56:00Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@rysiek is disagree there is no real benefit to the population. You can do things with bitcoin that can’t be done with other financial instruments. Everyone benefits, both normal users and criminals alike. How do you discriminate against criminals at the base layer, without destroying the benefits of the system for the rest of the population? It seems like a job best conducted at higher layers (eg, law enforcement agencies). The same as cash in the legacy system.
(DIR) Post #A3PJ7dEatBHXnfrjeK by cjd@mastodon.social
2021-01-19T19:43:08Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@rysiek @wolf480pl @pettter Replacing PoW is fraught with peril. PoS is pure takes-money-to-make-money.Central banks are very good in theory, but humans are bad at decision making and end up bailing out their friends when they shouldn't.On #3, I would not make it the job of the money system to cure extreme inequality. Tax policy has a purpose and I am personally a fan of Land Value Tax because it targets the biggest "guaranteed income" asset.
(DIR) Post #A3PJ7dOAJawEHMLNZI by waweic@chaos.social
2021-01-19T20:27:26Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@cjd @rysiek @wolf480pl @pettter I don't like this. This would mean that you had to extract value from the land you own, which is actually a pretty bad idea
(DIR) Post #A3PJ7dbzUBzsyEoQ7M by cjd@mastodon.social
2021-01-19T20:29:10Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@waweic @rysiek @wolf480pl @pettter You make an implied assumption that land is something which should be owned. Why not consider it something you rent from society?
(DIR) Post #A3PJ7do2lNddZcS2u8 by waweic@chaos.social
2021-01-19T20:31:25Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@cjd @rysiek @wolf480pl @pettter Interesting idea. Who represents society?
(DIR) Post #A3PJ7eB5Ni4Oj5ERou by cjd@mastodon.social
2021-01-19T20:35:40Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@waweic @rysiek @wolf480pl @pettter Hopefully the state, if not then you have bigger problems than land use.Imagine a world where most land is open to anyone to enjoy and you need to pay in order to exclude other people so that you can start a farm, build a factory, etc.
(DIR) Post #A3PJ7eZBw5LtvqVhOS by waweic@chaos.social
2021-01-19T20:43:25Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@cjd @rysiek @wolf480pl @pettter This means that your imagined world still works with the profit motive, so people will still be accumulating means of production
(DIR) Post #A3PJ7fMoxZ3EPljKka by wolf480pl@mstdn.io
2021-01-19T21:01:02Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@waweic @cjd @rysiek @pettter Would you prefer a world which operates on a non-profit self-interest motive, or do you consider self-interest in general to be an undesirable motive?
(DIR) Post #A3PJxbUGd8H7RJykPA by cjd@mastodon.social
2021-01-19T17:13:45Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@pettter @rysiek Incidentally, there is a narrative in occult mythology circles that prehistoric civilizations have, a number of times, reached technological levels comparable to our own before wiping themselves out.Whether this is factual or not is unimportant because it creates a basis for thinking about long term outlook of civilization.But there's danger: Malthusians & fascists use this narrative too so if topic of population comes up, you know you picked the wrong conversation partner.
(DIR) Post #A3PJyIUmj5EspNYGgK by waweic@chaos.social
2021-01-19T21:10:35Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@wolf480pl @cjd @rysiek @pettter That depends of your definition of self-interest. If it means the desire to live a fulfilled life in a healthy community, I don't object. If it means that everyone wants to have more, than anyone else, I wouldn't exactly like it
(DIR) Post #A3PKAxuSZjD4kKbMBc by wolf480pl@mstdn.io
2021-01-19T21:12:54Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@waweic @cjd @rysiek @pettter But what is a fulfilled life if not having more than your neighbour, so that you have better chances to pass on your genes than your neighbour? We evolved to have such desires, it won't be easy to get rid of them.
(DIR) Post #A3PKbTsWL4UjQOL1PM by waweic@chaos.social
2021-01-19T21:17:37Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@wolf480pl This isn't actually the case. We really can't apply these concepts to sociology. People have cooperated for most of the time humanity existed
(DIR) Post #A3PKvYbYTZgHsIyYJU by wolf480pl@mstdn.io
2021-01-19T21:21:19Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@waweic from what I've heard, it was usually either in extended family / tribe - in which case it does actually increase the chances of passing on your genes - or for profit.It was a long-term profit though, and profit for everyone involved. But such cooperation was only possible because of a relatively small community, where you meet the same people over and over again.Unless you partition the society into such small communities, you won't get such long-term cooperation.
(DIR) Post #A3PKyMtIU5GEPicB7o by rysiek@mastodon.social
2021-01-19T19:44:44Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@cjd @wolf480pl @pettter 3. is not about combating extreme inequality, but about checking extreme power. The more money is being transferred, the more accountability/transparency there needs to be.
(DIR) Post #A3PKyN3vqXlewhafhY by cjd@mastodon.social
2021-01-19T19:51:10Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@rysiek @wolf480pl @pettter Then it would be the job of money-laundring and financial regulation. But sadly this is fairly weak because millionaires don't like being told what to do with their money and countries like having millionaires as residents so millionaires have a tenancy of shopping for a place to call home.France has taken a fairly strong position on this, but it has weakened in recent years because the millionaires just move to islands.
(DIR) Post #A3PKyNHl18pJda3iFc by sl007@mastodon.social
2021-01-19T20:01:59Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@cjd @rysiek @wolf480pl @pettter Subscribed to immers.space newsletter, smirked that postal address is a lawyer in Panama City.In germany we have a debate “about checking extreme power” by special tax (wealth tax) for people > 2mio.However: We have the same problem w. large instances in ActivityPub.I am thinking a lot about responsibilities since twitter deleted 70.000 of the QAnon accounts with the fear where they move to.Limiting instances and distributing power https://socialhub.activitypub.rocks/t/intervention-after-2021-storming-of-the-united-states-capitol-wip/1298
(DIR) Post #A3PKyNVaBjsyKSWkng by cjd@mastodon.social
2021-01-19T20:15:02Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sl007 @rysiek @wolf480pl @pettter Sweden has an interesting system: They tax income very highly but capital gains very low. So the bulk of the tax is paid by professionals (who earn money from jobs which exist thanks to the Swedish economy) while the entrepreneurs themselves (who in theory make that economy) are given preferential treatment. As a result Sweden has very low income inequality, very high wealth inequality, and overall a very high standard of living.
(DIR) Post #A3PKyNmFBnDHA8K3lo by pettter@mastodon.acc.umu.se
2021-01-19T21:21:14Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@cjdSweden has rapidly increasing inequality specifically because _of_ that set of tax policies. When the equality was built the tax system looked very different, and in particular included a wealth tax that could literally put you at over 100% tax on your income.@sl007 @rysiek @wolf480pl
(DIR) Post #A3PKyO9Ho7e2Jb6Sga by wolf480pl@mstdn.io
2021-01-19T21:21:48Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@pettter @cjd @sl007 @rysiek are you talking about income inequality or wealth inequality?
(DIR) Post #A3PLhF5CMRnREFZxui by waweic@chaos.social
2021-01-19T21:29:56Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@wolf480pl This is interesting, because it correlates with developments in the production of goods. We only see humans exploiting other humans when they produce more than they need for their own survival, which was possible for the first time with the development of agriculture. Today, we have the possibility to minimize the amount of labour needed while keeping up a reasonable standard of living
(DIR) Post #A3PLziLQJ077C8yafY by wolf480pl@mstdn.io
2021-01-19T21:33:16Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@waweic at the same time, our civilization only started to develop when people started to be able to produce more than they need. You can't have scientists and librarians when everyone is busy obtaining food.
(DIR) Post #A3PMGrdF1oyyvEUKWW by rysiek@mastodon.social
2021-01-19T21:36:23Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@htimsxela I already said how: by creating friction and accountability that grows with the transaction amount.This has a lot of sense, since money is power, a lot of money is a lot of power, and a lot of power requires a lot of accountability.Petty crime is not that much of a problem; on the other hand a totally legal transaction in the millions of EUR has no reason to fear transparency. A shady transaction in the millions of EUR... well, that's something I would be really concerned about!
(DIR) Post #A3PMMpISciCvPvbxVA by waweic@chaos.social
2021-01-19T21:37:26Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@wolf480pl Exactly, this is what I'm saying. I don't want to go back to pre-industrial times, I want to efficiently use modern technology to reduce the amount of human labour needed. This isn't possible without the use of modern achievements. There simply is no point why anyone should be forced to work for 30h a week, simply to be able to stay alive
(DIR) Post #A3PNNOc5Pvjwu5cu8G by htimsxela@bitcoinhackers.org
2021-01-19T21:48:47Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@rysiek I meant in a more technical sense- what mechanism could there be, which allows this friction to be selectively applied? It seems like something that could be easily abused, to the detriment of all users. Something like bitcoin already *is* an improvement over cash in this regard: the ledger is public. Law enforcement can take note of huge unknown txs, and investigate. This happens without protocol-level interference, and isn’t possible with cash.
(DIR) Post #A3PQbrHFwRAjiiTGk4 by rysiek@mastodon.social
2021-01-19T22:25:00Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@htimsxela that is the million dollar question!Yes, I am not that concerned about public-ledger cryptocurrencies like Bitcoin, although tumblers are somewhat of an issue.I am mainly worried about privacy coins like Monero and z.cash. I don't have an answer to how to create such friction, but I do know it's something that needs to be seriously researched and considered.\
(DIR) Post #A3PQdkbVivtRbPqb3Y by rysiek@mastodon.social
2021-01-19T22:25:21Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@htimsxela that is the million dollar question!Yes, I am not that concerned about this in public-ledger cryptocurrencies like Bitcoin, although tumblers are somewhat of an issue.I am mainly worried about privacy coins like Monero and z.cash. I don't have an answer to how to create such friction, but I do know it's something that needs to be seriously researched and considered.
(DIR) Post #A3PRIgS24KLYayvre4 by a_breakin_glass@cybre.space
2021-01-19T21:59:53Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@rysiek is that much of a problem
(DIR) Post #A3PRIh041nZKIWr2gq by rysiek@mastodon.social
2021-01-19T22:22:39Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@a_breakin_glass writing that post? Nah. I just need to stop slacking off on it.
(DIR) Post #A3PRIiOYqCl4cnK7Vo by a_breakin_glass@cybre.space
2021-01-19T22:23:18Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@rysiek no, perfect privacy
(DIR) Post #A3PRIjNBCpFPengWzw by rysiek@mastodon.social
2021-01-19T22:28:55Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@a_breakin_glass I am not certain I want perfect privacy for those who have immense power.In fact, I know for certain I do not want perfect privacy for those in power. Power needs to be checked, those in power need to be accountable.
(DIR) Post #A3PRIkn5vxZU3Sok1w by a_breakin_glass@cybre.space
2021-01-19T22:30:13Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@rysiek true, but the objectionable part isn't privacy
(DIR) Post #A3PRIlnUBzTjAy0ZHM by rysiek@mastodon.social
2021-01-19T22:31:59Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@a_breakin_glass what is, then? Sorry, I don't follow. You have at least 500 char limit, why not use it?
(DIR) Post #A3PRImGYRujMd7bmaW by thor@pl.thj.no
2021-01-19T22:32:43.150467Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@rysiek @a_breakin_glass just to let you know: this thread is too long
(DIR) Post #A3PRRIn5PITtoutDbE by rysiek@mastodon.social
2021-01-19T22:33:04Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@thor @a_breakin_glass you're not wrong.
(DIR) Post #A3PTKfc2MEVcTwgeB6 by htimsxela@bitcoinhackers.org
2021-01-19T22:55:31Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@rysiek it begs the question- what is the net effect? Is it better to allow all users freedom of economy, or is it better to ban such a thing, in hopes of restricting the potential criminals?I think allowance is superior, just look at the gains made by freedom of information (the internet), it is somewhat analogous. The internet does allow nefarious activities, but for the average person it’s hard to ignore the obvious net benefits of internet access.
(DIR) Post #A3PU8XYkZZ5lz8vgKe by rysiek@mastodon.social
2021-01-19T23:04:31Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@htimsxela you are setting it up as either-or: "either ALL users have privacy/freedom of economy/etc, or NONE have it". This is a false dichotomy.Then you're comparing something that helps keep those in power in check (freedom of information) against something that potentially lets those in power avoid accountability.We already have privacy [protections that diminish the higher up the power ladder you are, and transparency requirements that ramp up the higher on that ladder you go.
(DIR) Post #A3PUB9xqktQXftv0wi by rysiek@mastodon.social
2021-01-19T23:05:00Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@htimsxela you are setting it up as either-or: "either ALL users have privacy/freedom of economy/etc, or NONE have it". This is a false dichotomy.Then you're comparing something that helps keep those in power in check (freedom of information) against something that potentially lets those in power avoid accountability.We already have privacy protections that diminish the higher up the power ladder you are, and transparency requirements that ramp up the higher on that ladder you go.
(DIR) Post #A3PVUMUsU0xe065TJw by htimsxela@bitcoinhackers.org
2021-01-19T23:19:41Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@rysiek I don't mean to create a false dichotomy, but the task of creating a technical mechanism for selectively stopping the economic interactions of 'bad guys' is the big question here. I'm not sure how it could be accomplished autonomously? If not autonomous, then it creates a hierarchy of power - which does put all users at risk of freedom loss.Freedom of economy also keep those in power in check, I would argue that control of money is of greater existential importance than control of info
(DIR) Post #A3PVtx6HWvFolNmjoW by rysiek@mastodon.social
2021-01-19T23:24:18Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@htimsxela you keep saying "stopping transactions of bad guys". that's not what I am suggesting.I am saying that:1. privacy coins create this "corrupt money flows" problem that is somewhat mitigated in cash (by friction), and in banking (by accountability, as flawed as it is)2. such corrupt money flows can be expected to be huge transactions3. thus, we should consider if there is a way to add such friction (growing with the transaction amount) to privacy coins for *all* transactions.
(DIR) Post #A3PXmxtiMozn7KhdyK by htimsxela@bitcoinhackers.org
2021-01-19T23:45:27Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@rysiek ah, sorry, I think reading the other replies here pulled me away from your point. Though I don't think adding friction to larger transactions is really viable (however it is applied). It would incentivize: - activity to occur on other networks that don't have this friction (which will continue to exist)- activity on the network in question to be split up into parts. How do you distinguish small independent payments from small payments which are, in aggregate, a larger settlement?
(DIR) Post #A3PY5qmR3NxcXrIrhY by rysiek@mastodon.social
2021-01-19T23:48:51Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@htimsxela ah, now we're talking! it always amazes me how long it takes to actually get through to the technical details.I do not have answers to that, and I agree that these are problems that need to be solved. But recognizing that this is something we need to have a conversation about is the first step, and privacy coin developers are not even there yet.
(DIR) Post #A3QFSSFmhmV7AO3Xjk by Janus@x0r.be
2021-01-19T16:21:21Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@rysiek What's your opinion on it as a tool for banking the unbanked? See https://www.forbes.com/sites/tatianakoffman/2020/07/14/this-el-salvador-village-adopts-bitcoin-as-money/?sh=5362bb642044
(DIR) Post #A3QFk7tL9JltE9z5uq by eee@poa.st
2021-01-20T07:57:58.878235Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@cjd @pettter @rysiek authority told me to be scared of fascists, fascism bad!
(DIR) Post #A3QFqqfxYVqHrPvnSC by rat_attakk@poa.st
2021-01-20T07:59:11.639360Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@rysiek at this point I'd rather live in a world of petty crime
(DIR) Post #A3QGO66pCCwTHZLqy0 by PauITown@poa.st
2021-01-20T08:05:12.300844Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@rat_attakk wish... granted...
(DIR) Post #A3QJVaXWkm7BYE6Z3A by pettter@mastodon.acc.umu.se
2021-01-20T08:29:20Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@eee Fuck right off.
(DIR) Post #A3QJVaqJcv8yUUtZKq by eee@poa.st
2021-01-20T08:40:09.350290Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@pettter ok midwit