Post A37gjTrS7NeFxpkmPI by hurtado@fosstodon.org
(DIR) More posts by hurtado@fosstodon.org
(DIR) Post #A376QUreZE6ZDvUoIS by oleg@fosstodon.org
2021-01-11T02:14:03Z
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Just found a term perfectly describes my political views: #libertarian
(DIR) Post #A3773jPmP2SFe2AP8S by hurtado@fosstodon.org
2021-01-11T02:21:08Z
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@oleg Murray Rothbard is an interesting guy to read.
(DIR) Post #A377fBBC8YToTDCXmC by oleg@fosstodon.org
2021-01-11T02:27:54Z
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@hurtado thank you! You and @b1beny4 's profile just helped this glance happen ! ❤️
(DIR) Post #A377yBPnUA6ihd5q5I by b1beny4@lkbch.com
2021-01-11T02:31:20Z
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@oleg @hurtado good to hear, bro.🤜
(DIR) Post #A3782yhSBhheiOddL6 by b1beny4@lkbch.com
2021-01-11T02:31:38Z
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@oleg good to hear, bro.🤜
(DIR) Post #A378BZr7vV8kGkGNuq by oleg@fosstodon.org
2021-01-11T02:33:46Z
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@b1beny4 🤛
(DIR) Post #A378iZMilqW2IvlzZw by hurtado@fosstodon.org
2021-01-11T02:39:44Z
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@oleg Cool! Maybe Ayn Rand's 'The Virtue of Selfishness' migjt do the trick as well.
(DIR) Post #A378kHAfO7rASEwrVQ by hurtado@fosstodon.org
2021-01-11T02:40:03Z
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@oleg Cool! Maybe Ayn Rand's 'The Virtue of Selfishness' might do the trick as well.
(DIR) Post #A379nYtG45BMETw7NI by oleg@fosstodon.org
2021-01-11T02:51:48Z
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@hurtado thx! In the queue now 😅
(DIR) Post #A37A2i1YO6ksu82VAe by hurtado@fosstodon.org
2021-01-11T02:54:34Z
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@oleg Yeah, sorry about that. Following a philosophy takes some theory reading. You can't run away from it.
(DIR) Post #A37BucXF6xtnTM8HEO by mgiagante@fosstodon.org
2021-01-11T03:15:30Z
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@oleg Welcome to the club, my friend!
(DIR) Post #A37C1WiN9N6zRodD04 by mgiagante@fosstodon.org
2021-01-11T03:16:43Z
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@oleg By the way, get ready: You're gonna have a hard time every now and then belonging to such a left-wing biased industry like that of software.
(DIR) Post #A37L9pGiwwKytcjP28 by nsartor@fosstodon.org
2021-01-11T04:59:07Z
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@oleg welcome to the club!
(DIR) Post #A37eRX7R4E26wmXlw0 by wizzwizz4@fosstodon.org
2021-01-11T08:35:12Z
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@hurtado @oleg Avoid Ayn Rand. Her philosophy had so many holes in it, it'd be painful to enumerate them all.There *is* a sort of person who could benefit from reading Ayn Rand's books – but not anyone who remotely agrees with their premise in the first place.
(DIR) Post #A37eXvEuIhJ1Ud5KYi by wizzwizz4@fosstodon.org
2021-01-11T08:36:20Z
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@mgiagante @oleg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commune is “part of a series on libertarianism”.
(DIR) Post #A37gjTrS7NeFxpkmPI by hurtado@fosstodon.org
2021-01-11T09:00:50Z
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@wizzwizz4 @oleg Yeah, you're probably right. I remember enjoying her book in my libertarian phase, and laughing out loud with some of the essays' ideas.
(DIR) Post #A38MllBQshzELGruE4 by tulpa@tailswish.industries
2021-01-11T16:17:33.360244Z
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@wizzwizz4 @hurtado @oleg I got sucked into Rand in my mid 20's. But then I'm the sort of person who's a sucker for a systematic ideology if I'm not careful.
(DIR) Post #A38MllRNvOkN8kKe5g by wizzwizz4@fosstodon.org
2021-01-11T16:51:52Z
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@tulpa @hurtado @oleg I probably would've, too, had I not encountered Yudkowskian rationalism first (the systematic ideology about thinking for yourself that, more often than not, leads to rejecting large sections of that same ideology – 8/10 would recommend).Rand's Objectivism is the kind of thing that you can happily chug away with for years, until you actually start *thinking* about it deeply, and realise that it's not only inconsistent with reality, it's not even self-consistent.
(DIR) Post #A38NdPvW856K3M0fp2 by hurtado@fosstodon.org
2021-01-11T16:57:23Z
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@tulpa @oleg @wizzwizz4 I even got into Ortega y Gasset in my early twenties, who got me obsessed over freedom and mediocrity, and that was kind of scary.
(DIR) Post #A38NdROGgfh2aoT9H6 by wizzwizz4@fosstodon.org
2021-01-11T17:01:27Z
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@hurtado @tulpa @oleg Ouch. Why do philosophers always have to build up a persuasive memeplex around their ideas?Well, I suppose they don't all do that – but the ones who do get remembered.
(DIR) Post #A38O4kZ7VFKBsjZDjk by oleg@fosstodon.org
2021-01-11T17:06:30Z
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@wizzwizz4 @hurtado @tulpa I will try a different approach. I'll think about my own beliefs and will try to define them first. Then I'll look through the existing knowledge base and try to find one that better suits me and will use it as a starting point. Thanks for the recommendations!
(DIR) Post #A38O9SCBEITaM951WK by wizzwizz4@fosstodon.org
2021-01-11T17:07:20Z
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@oleg @hurtado @tulpa Oh, yeah, forgot that was an option. This is a *much* more sensible idea.
(DIR) Post #A38OiZJujRCKaYRRJo by urusan@fosstodon.org
2021-01-11T17:13:38Z
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@wizzwizz4 @tulpa @hurtado @oleg I'm a former libertarian.Not entirely sure what I am now, as I still have human freedom as a major guiding value, and I am not an anarchist either.Libertarianism, much like the market system it venerates, gives an incomplete picture of the world.People are irrational. Externalities exist because not everything is part of the mass market. Inequality feedback loops break down markets. Collective action is important to human flourishing.
(DIR) Post #A38Sl8Q5bRlLqNoEF6 by urusan@fosstodon.org
2021-01-11T17:58:59Z
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@wizzwizz4 @tulpa @hurtado @oleg Normally I'd have to ask about national context, but the word libertarian is a US invention.The word "liberal", which used to mean something closer to libertarian in the US (and still does in Europe), started to change meaning as mainstream left-leaning groups had to rebrand away from communism and explicit leftism during the cold war, due to intense ideological pressure. These groups have since drifted rightward, but that's another story.
(DIR) Post #A38SwZ4eqKtXhEEcls by urusan@fosstodon.org
2021-01-11T18:01:03Z
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@wizzwizz4 @tulpa @hurtado @oleg The relatively tiny groups that held a liberal position prior to this shift in wording were left with a problem: continuing to use their old label would confuse the average listener. So, a new word had to be invented, which ended up being "libertarian".At the same time, the newly branded libertarians invented the modern political compass to explain how they differed from both the right and anarchists.https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nolan_Chart
(DIR) Post #A38TVnPPXTBqI2k2Km by wizzwizz4@fosstodon.org
2021-01-11T18:07:24Z
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@urusan @tulpa @hurtado @oleg Political compass memes have exported the word “libertarian” to the rest of the world; asking for context is probably sensible.
(DIR) Post #A38TXNbWS16kpzA5om by urusan@fosstodon.org
2021-01-11T18:07:43Z
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@wizzwizz4 @tulpa @hurtado @oleg Interestingly, this new way of thinking about political positions opens up possibilities like "left-libertarian".Libertarians occupy the space between centrists and anarchists, desiring less government but not zero government.However, without government, you have to decide what system picks up the slack.Right-libertarians use the market for this role, and they invented the word, so a bare libertarian is assumed to be right-libertarian.
(DIR) Post #A38WT11QlhvBVKtI7U by urusan@fosstodon.org
2021-01-11T18:40:31Z
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@wizzwizz4 @tulpa @hurtado @oleg Does libertarian have a different meaning worldwide these days?
(DIR) Post #A38Wi1kcLCek6nBVfU by oleg@fosstodon.org
2021-01-11T18:43:12Z
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@urusan @wizzwizz4 @tulpa @hurtado I'm not sure, it seems like there are many different directions that have something in common. Like any other ideology.
(DIR) Post #A38WkxB7nWPGnPyjc8 by wizzwizz4@fosstodon.org
2021-01-11T18:43:45Z
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@urusan @tulpa @hurtado @oleg In colloquial usage, it seems to mean a rubbish sort of ancap who thinks the government should only be the police and that the Free Market Solves All Problems™. The few people I've met (briefly) calling themselves libertarians have done nothing to disabuse me of this notion in conversations.I… don't actually know what a libertarian is, so couldn't say whether this is a different meaning to the usual ones.
(DIR) Post #A38YWKKTdo2UA5VS88 by oleg@fosstodon.org
2021-01-11T19:03:32Z
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@urusan @wizzwizz4 @tulpa @hurtado If we believe in the existence of a social contract the role of the state is only to ensure this contract complies. The government's role is to create a sufficient environment for this social contract existence. Right?
(DIR) Post #A38Yd5gGVDQikzvGlM by wizzwizz4@fosstodon.org
2021-01-11T19:04:44Z
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@oleg @urusan @tulpa @hurtado That is one way of viewing the world. But that also drags in stuff like “the parties to the social contract remain alive” which requires healthcare…
(DIR) Post #A38ZL54K8g0hbJ9UMi by tulpa@tailswish.industries
2021-01-11T19:10:29.212078Z
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@oleg @urusan @wizzwizz4 @hurtado I am remembering what Nozick said in one of his later books, that while he still considered his Libertarian arguments valid, it's also possible for a society to opt for more government because they want to. His example was that people want to help each other more, so they contract as a whole to provide a safety net. Just because a minimal government checks all the boxes, doesn't mean we have to stop there.
(DIR) Post #A38ZL5R0mK9sjflbjE by wizzwizz4@fosstodon.org
2021-01-11T19:12:42Z
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@tulpa @hurtado @oleg @urusan This… I don't read philosophy books, but do you happen to know which one this was? I might have to make an exception.
(DIR) Post #A38ZfMSZBnI1KVA6AS by tulpa@tailswish.industries
2021-01-11T19:14:07.954509Z
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@wizzwizz4 @hurtado @oleg @urusan It was a brief note in the introduction to "The Examined Life", just a sentence or two. I found the rest of the book not worth reading.
(DIR) Post #A38ZfMpbo7imTxwV5E by wizzwizz4@fosstodon.org
2021-01-11T19:16:23Z
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@tulpa @hurtado @oleg @urusan Aw. Nozick is the “utility monster” guy; I was hoping for a deep well of insight.I suppose that's more evidence against the “Great Man” theory of philosophy.
(DIR) Post #A38aaFmigA5l8MiUka by tulpa@tailswish.industries
2021-01-11T19:24:04.226996Z
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@wizzwizz4 @hurtado @oleg @urusan I would quote it for you but I no longer own the book, and it's hard to find online in useful pieces.
(DIR) Post #A38aaG6ZULyI7w0Lh2 by wizzwizz4@fosstodon.org
2021-01-11T19:26:28Z
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@tulpa @hurtado @oleg @urusan No need; if it was only a sentence or two, I think I've got what I needed from it. Philosophical ideas are often better once filtered through other thinkers, anyway. (They do get worse when repeated as fake wisdom, like “God is dead”.)
(DIR) Post #A38eWkq3gAyW6Vri3E by urusan@fosstodon.org
2021-01-11T20:10:48Z
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@oleg @wizzwizz4 @tulpa @hurtado I think a more generalized version of this principle is the best idea libertarianism has developed.Government should have a well defined scope/role/charter. It can be overwhelmingly powerful within its narrowly defined scope, but outside that scope it should not get involved.Side note: many people believe in a false equivalence of big government = strong government. While a certain size is necessary, a big government could just be bloated
(DIR) Post #A38f4QhP42hlUJsHRo by urusan@fosstodon.org
2021-01-11T20:16:56Z
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@oleg @wizzwizz4 @tulpa @hurtado However, what the precise scope of government should be isn't easy to answer.I broadly agree with the libertarian position that the minimum possible government simply provides national defense, from enemies foreign and domestic. Preventing outside invasions or internal warlords from seizing power and replacing the relatively free system with what will likely be a more oppressive system.This is a logical and natural answer to the question.
(DIR) Post #A38fmT2ji5t5V2qria by urusan@fosstodon.org
2021-01-11T20:24:53Z
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@oleg @wizzwizz4 @tulpa @hurtado However, is it actually the right answer to the question?Implicit in the government being hands off in particular areas of life is that, whenever two or more parties are involved, there has to be some standards for interaction, whether formally defined or naturally arising.Modern right-libertarian thought has answers to those questions: legal contracts, property rights, and market economies.
(DIR) Post #A38gIA8LYCwa7Taam0 by urusan@fosstodon.org
2021-01-11T20:30:37Z
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@oleg @wizzwizz4 @tulpa @hurtado So, along this line of thinking, the government's natural role becomes national defense and enforcement of contracts and property rights.It's a well defined, natural scope. It's easy to tell if the government is getting out of bounds, and you don't need to get messy democracy involved (or it serves a secondary role). It's a very neat and tidy ideology.Assuming that capitalist markets function properly and efficiently, this would be ideal.
(DIR) Post #A38gIwMAG8W9gEQIyW by oleg@fosstodon.org
2021-01-11T20:30:47Z
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@urusan @wizzwizz4 @tulpa @hurtado I don't understand the concept of "enemy". Is it a part of our nature to have such?
(DIR) Post #A38gQlphGnJrMGyEqG by wizzwizz4@fosstodon.org
2021-01-11T20:32:10Z
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@oleg @urusan @tulpa @hurtado Until the day when we've sorted out our perverse incentive systems, we will always have enemies.It may or may not be in our nature, but it is in the nature of the world. (I'd argue that it's in our nature to avoid being enemies; otherwise, coöperation would be almost impossible for us.)
(DIR) Post #A38h05vmXNRjpKf1NI by urusan@fosstodon.org
2021-01-11T20:38:32Z
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@wizzwizz4 @oleg @tulpa @hurtado I was echoing the US oath of office/oath of military enlistment with my wording. Both start with "I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic".I think the idea of there being people (or groups) that would willingly hijack the political system or otherwise use force to exploit others is implicit in libertarianism. Otherwise, why not anarchism?
(DIR) Post #A38hn05t1n5fughu4W by urusan@fosstodon.org
2021-01-11T20:47:24Z
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@oleg @wizzwizz4 @tulpa @hurtado My main criticism is that the capitalist market system does not work as advertised, so an ideology that trusts that this system will work as advertised is not going to work either.The big three issues are irrational behavior, externalities, and inequality spirals.
(DIR) Post #A38hwzsAhmVs7h3hlw by urusan@fosstodon.org
2021-01-11T20:49:09Z
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@oleg @wizzwizz4 @tulpa @hurtado A specific technical definition of rational behavior is a core assumption of modern economics.Research into human behavior has consistently shown that rational behavior is not how humans actually behave.Therefore, economic theory can't be used to justify our economic system.People can easily be tricked into doing things that are against their self interest, and will often forego opportunities they should have taken for no good reason.
(DIR) Post #A38iH8YW8DvQqQT92e by histoire@neckbeard.xyz
2021-01-11T20:52:52.588248Z
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@urusan @oleg @wizzwizz4 @tulpa @hurtado That's not what's meant by rational in the misesian senseIt's simply rational in the sense that people have goals, and they use whatever means they possess to attain those goals. It doesn't mean the goals or methods are "good" or even "beneficiary", though most of the people chasing them would argue they wereA heroin addict chasing another dose for instance.
(DIR) Post #A38iPnsGOVnRJApzsG by wizzwizz4@fosstodon.org
2021-01-11T20:54:15Z
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@histoire @hurtado @oleg @urusan @tulpa You can manipulate anyone into acting against arbitrary interests, if you try hard enough. Some manipulations are easier than others.Humans cannot be well modelled as ideal rational actors with *any* goal.
(DIR) Post #A38iV5o19XIAMzNEnI by histoire@neckbeard.xyz
2021-01-11T20:55:23.889300Z
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@wizzwizz4 @hurtado @oleg @urusan @tulpa rationality is a method, not a goalyou can be rational and pursue 'wrong' goalsgive an computer bad data, and they give you a bad result
(DIR) Post #A38ik7P5Uh81fYsUKW by urusan@fosstodon.org
2021-01-11T20:57:21Z
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@oleg @wizzwizz4 @tulpa @hurtado Market externalities definitely exist. These cause environmental degradation, open up subtle loopholes to exploit others, etc.Interestingly enough, this is one of the more fixable issues, but it requires an extreme position: absolutely everything needs to be market-based. Nothing can be held in common.Air? It is owned and you have to buy it.Etc.This plugs the externalities because you have to, for instance, pay to pollute.
(DIR) Post #A38ika3SyA44Wtz89g by wizzwizz4@fosstodon.org
2021-01-11T20:57:22Z
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@histoire @hurtado @oleg @urusan @tulpa For humans, “rationality” is a set of techniques, behaviours, habits and practices, and even then humans don't behave rationally.Humans cannot be modelled as ideal optimising agents. We do not have coherent utility functions, and even if we *did*, we do a terrible job at optimising for them. We don't even have “revealed preferences”.
(DIR) Post #A38isTLnmOHq3NKB7o by wizzwizz4@fosstodon.org
2021-01-11T20:59:34Z
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@urusan @oleg @tulpa @hurtado You can actually fix this problem without eliminating the commons, but it's a little trickier to work through and you no longer have “right libertarianism” at the end of it.
(DIR) Post #A38j4XatpOoOgo8nVQ by histoire@neckbeard.xyz
2021-01-11T21:01:47.589967Z
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@wizzwizz4 @hurtado @oleg @urusan @tulpa they do though. If someone is hungry, they seek food, if cold, they seek warmthAnd they don't have to be modeled as ideal optimising agents, they couldn't even if they were perfect ones because they work with imperfect sets of information, which even if they had, the 'problem' would still exist, because the goals don't align with what a third party considers to be 'optimal'value is subjective, and since this is so, a goal's value is subjective as well, there is no way to optimize what people should choose.
(DIR) Post #A38jBKRZ7UUpvm0muG by urusan@fosstodon.org
2021-01-11T21:03:00Z
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@oleg @wizzwizz4 @tulpa @hurtado Lastly, inequality spirals are a huge problem.Small amounts of inequality are not an issue. Someone who works harder or smarter should benefit from their work.The problem is that the market only values your preferences in proportion to your market power.So, if one person owns 80% of the market and everyone else owns tiny fragments of the other 20%, that one person can outvote everyone else.Furthermore, money leads to more money.
(DIR) Post #A38jTpHzAxMQoDLpia by urusan@fosstodon.org
2021-01-11T21:06:20Z
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@oleg @wizzwizz4 @tulpa @hurtado As long as you can leverage your market power to gain more market power, then positive feedback loops will be a core feature of the resulting system.These feedback loops naturally lead to massively lopsided inequality, which effectively breaks the system.Unless you are one of the mega-wealthy, your preferences are not being respected.
(DIR) Post #A38kAskeB9A000HuRU by urusan@fosstodon.org
2021-01-11T21:14:07Z
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@oleg @wizzwizz4 @tulpa @hurtado All that said, I'm simply criticizing the standard right-libertarian ideology here.There are some good ideas in there about government architecture, that we should carefully define the scope/role of the government we want, and that at the end of the day a good government's most important job is to survive so as to prevent a worse tyranny from emerging.It might even be that we just need to make some adjustments to patch up the problems.
(DIR) Post #A38kH35QfKlHn4wts0 by wizzwizz4@fosstodon.org
2021-01-11T21:15:14Z
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@histoire @hurtado @oleg @urusan @tulpa I'm finding it difficult to answer this without linking to a large pile of Yudkowsky essays. (He <del>plagiarised</del> borrowed most of the ideas from elsewhere, but he does a really good job of explaining them.)Did you know that you can convince somebody to choose option A over option B, wait a few days, then their decision has changed to option B over option A, with *nothing else having changed*? And that you can do this reliably?1/2
(DIR) Post #A38kPspm9ZqubDq8YK by wizzwizz4@fosstodon.org
2021-01-11T21:16:49Z
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@histoire @hurtado @oleg @urusan @tulpa That's not value being subjective. That's a complete failure of reasoning. I mean sure, there *are* (common) scenarios where it makes sense, but you can set up scenarios where it *doesn't* and the effect is *still* present.See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperbolic_discounting2/2
(DIR) Post #A38kTPUlB2ASlSgwhU by urusan@fosstodon.org
2021-01-11T21:17:28Z
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@oleg @wizzwizz4 @tulpa @hurtado However, as long as we don't have a solid scientific basis for our economic and social systems, it's unlikely we are all that close to developing an architecture that is dramatically better than the best present-day examples, which are all quite flawed.We should keep trying though.
(DIR) Post #A38kayKi35neq6b2eG by wizzwizz4@fosstodon.org
2021-01-11T21:18:50Z
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@urusan @oleg @tulpa @hurtado It's a bad idea to try to patch a system, especially one as elegant as right-libertarianism. The phrase “polishing a turd” comes to mind.If you have an elegant system, and the system doesn't work properly, that's a fundamental issue. Mere patching isn't going to sort it – in my experience, at least.
(DIR) Post #A38lWFudMTThrpiN96 by urusan@fosstodon.org
2021-01-11T21:29:11Z
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@wizzwizz4 @oleg @tulpa @hurtado Well, I already alluded to some possible patches:* externalities could be eliminated by making everything market-based (and the inequality issue could, for instance, be helped by splitting previously common resources like air up evenly)* positive feedback loops could be moderated by negative feedback loops, like property taxes or preventing the transfer of intergenerational wealth or inflation, with the money raised being split evenlyEtc.
(DIR) Post #A38lmoy0nVPDDiC4Ui by wizzwizz4@fosstodon.org
2021-01-11T21:32:11Z
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@urusan @oleg @tulpa @hurtado None of these patches are any good.• Making everything market based doesn't work without a way of redistributing externalities when new ones are discovered, meaning you need a way of redistributing once-communal goods, except some of those will be liabilities…• Attempting to moderate positive feedback loops with negative ones of a different nature straight-up doesn't work. It's a kludge.
(DIR) Post #A38lxKqR8Ckkz1fECu by urusan@fosstodon.org
2021-01-11T21:34:04Z
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@wizzwizz4 @oleg @tulpa @hurtado Though as you pointed out, this rapidly stops looking like right-libertarianism and more like some sort of socialism.I also more or less agree that attempting to develop economic theory based on more realistic premises is unlikely to work out, just because humans aren't simple enough to model in easily understandable ways.Still, it might turn out that the patches work in practice, even if we don't understand why.
(DIR) Post #A38mFmrNi5Fn5Eu8VU by wizzwizz4@fosstodon.org
2021-01-11T21:37:25Z
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@urusan @oleg @tulpa @hurtado The patches will work until someone sets a more powerful optimising agent on them, or sits down for a few days working through them, looking for exploits.What's that, convenient hypothetical arguer? You think people won't do this? Well, have you *seen* the stock market‽
(DIR) Post #A38mTGgI9B7TKw95Hs by amerika@freespeechextremist.com
2021-01-11T21:39:53.930886Z
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@urusan @wizzwizz4 @oleg @tulpa @hurtado Just end whining about inequality and reduce costs.
(DIR) Post #A38mmzhJ09cESF1fA8 by urusan@fosstodon.org
2021-01-11T21:43:24Z
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@wizzwizz4 @oleg @tulpa @hurtado Don't worry, I don't actually think we should take right-libertarianism as a starting point to just patch up.That said, it's useful to think about how to patch up the issues regardless. It gets one thinking about how to tackle these issues, especially for someone starting out from a right-libertarian position.
(DIR) Post #A38muDOKUCd8x7apma by urusan@fosstodon.org
2021-01-11T21:44:44Z
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@wizzwizz4 @oleg @tulpa @hurtado How do we stop externalities from destroying the planet we have historically kept in the commons and all communally rely on for life support?How do we prevent positive feedback loops from causing the preference fulfillment property of markets to melt down for the majority of the population?How can we better understand economic forces, and is there really a logical basis for our current beliefs?
(DIR) Post #A38q6Nq7lUzQh95VpY by urusan@fosstodon.org
2021-01-11T22:20:28Z
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@wizzwizz4 @oleg @tulpa @hurtado One last thing I would like to point out: libertarianism is a pragmatic philosophy.While there's a moral and philosophical basis for libertarianism, it's ancap that takes these ideas to their logical conclusions.If taxation is theft, then why is okay for defense or to enforce property rights?To an ancap, it's immoral plain and simple, practical issues be damnedTo a libertarian, there's a greater good to be achieved by bending the rule
(DIR) Post #A38qYK0dbGWWvJKMgC by wizzwizz4@fosstodon.org
2021-01-11T22:25:34Z
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@urusan @oleg @tulpa @hurtado People who say “taxation is theft” clearly don't understand how fiat works.https://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2020/12/12/macroeconomics-money-and-post-brexit-recovery-all-in-one-twitter-thread/ by Richard Murphy is a very good introduction to the topic.
(DIR) Post #A38qkXcko3oEcjyzgm by urusan@fosstodon.org
2021-01-11T22:27:48Z
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@wizzwizz4 @oleg @tulpa @hurtado That said, for right-libertarians deep down the free market fundamentalism rabbit hole, the problems I outlined don't exist.Either everything is hunky dory (a viewpoint more common in decades past) or there's something corrupting the system. The usual claimed villain is the government and/or some kind of international conspiracy.True capitalism has never been tried!
(DIR) Post #A38qpf8yHAw5OSUhPs by wizzwizz4@fosstodon.org
2021-01-11T22:28:42Z
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@urusan @oleg @tulpa @hurtado In fairness, true capitalism *has* never been tried, at a large scale. 😛
(DIR) Post #A3AbMRCRvj9OkkeCUi by oleg@fosstodon.org
2021-01-12T18:44:46Z
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@urusan @wizzwizz4 @tulpa @hurtado Thank you for such interesting inputs! Good start points for a journey with! 🙏
(DIR) Post #A3AdCPvnzVvNpcDCCG by urusan@fosstodon.org
2021-01-12T19:05:16Z
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@oleg @wizzwizz4 @tulpa @hurtado I'm glad you enjoyed my commentary.The most important thing is to think for yourself, and it sounds like you are doing that.I certainly don't have the answers either. It's always a work in progress.
(DIR) Post #A3DEnRArrwUD2m4YAi by oleg@fosstodon.org
2021-01-14T01:16:04Z
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@wizzwizz4 @urusan @tulpa @hurtado I can not agree with Murphy's that the current system cause "unemployment, low wages and lots of crap jobs that add little value to society". Is being a teacher, firefighter, policeman or taking garbage a crapy job? Does it add little value to society? 1/2
(DIR) Post #A3DF1V6m2VL3Iarar2 by oleg@fosstodon.org
2021-01-14T01:18:36Z
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@wizzwizz4 @urusan @tulpa @hurtado Governmental money usually spreads via tender system which is kind of a market and these money goes to private companies who are very diverse and they establish their structure and wages by themself. On the next iteration, money comes to the real market. 2/2
(DIR) Post #A3DImf1dHkjDWrdbpw by urusan@fosstodon.org
2021-01-14T02:00:46Z
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@oleg @wizzwizz4 @tulpa @hurtado After thinking about this for a bit, I think you're right that this particular bit of Murphy's article is incoherent.I think what happened was that he was thinking about two separate but related issues: bullshit jobs and shit jobs.I've heard of these two as being on a shit job-bullshit job spectrumWhile there are certainly exceptions, most meaningful work is treated/compensated poorly (shit jobs), while the best jobs tend to be bullshit
(DIR) Post #A3DJUzF7TiKWyT5BNQ by urusan@fosstodon.org
2021-01-14T02:08:46Z
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@oleg @wizzwizz4 @tulpa @hurtado For instance, consider your example jobs: teachers are some of the lowest paid careers in the US, firefighters are often volunteers, and police have a horrible job environment, as well as mediocre pay.On the flip side of the coin, the best paid positions are managers/executives, finance jobs, lawyers, celebrities, politicians, etc.One of the few exceptions are doctors, but despite their high pay they have an extremely bad work environment
(DIR) Post #A3DJuqJTIlHmoARnDE by urusan@fosstodon.org
2021-01-14T02:13:26Z
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@oleg @wizzwizz4 @tulpa @hurtado Even in my own career, I've had to choose between money and social benefit. I chose social benefit over money, but I've had several friends who made the opposite choice.For instance, one of them is making ridiculous money automating the payday loan process.
(DIR) Post #A3DKm3PvJNeenVq1mi by urusan@fosstodon.org
2021-01-14T02:23:04Z
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@oleg @wizzwizz4 @tulpa @hurtado I don't mean to condemn entire classes of jobs with a high proportion of bullshit, as they often have some real value to provide too. It's just that such work tends to be hugely overrated.For instance, some amount of the law work done by lawyers and politicians is useful.However, the vast majority of the legal work being done is at best marginally useful or sometimes even damagingUsually the worker knows how much good their job is doing
(DIR) Post #A3DLA5xnUo5Be397Ro by urusan@fosstodon.org
2021-01-14T02:27:24Z
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@oleg @wizzwizz4 @tulpa @hurtado If you want to know more about the bullshit jobs phenomenon, there's a whole book on the topic, Bullshit Jobs by David Graeber, including data supporting the idea, as well as some thoughts on how it could have emerged.
(DIR) Post #A3F1yexu1bpfuewtBA by oleg@fosstodon.org
2021-01-14T22:01:47Z
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@urusan @wizzwizz4 @tulpa @hurtado Haven't these jobs existed in the pre-fiat era?
(DIR) Post #A3F6LjOa7R0K88gV1M by urusan@fosstodon.org
2021-01-14T22:50:52Z
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@oleg @wizzwizz4 @tulpa @hurtado Not to the extent they do today.Several polls have found that around 40% of workers say their job makes no meaningful contribution to the world.I believe it too, many of my coworkers suffer from this doubt.As recently as 1800, most people were farmers. There simply wasn't the excess labor to support more than a handful of bs jobs.Also, in previous eras, the now wasted energy would usually go towards leisure or unmanaged goofing off.
(DIR) Post #A3F6nwdcTdG5JGAhma by urusan@fosstodon.org
2021-01-14T22:55:57Z
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@oleg @wizzwizz4 @tulpa @hurtado The 1700s in particular had the least work, as there were improvements to agriculture and cottage industry that made everyday life relatively leisurely, without the modern industrial age economic and social structures keeping people at their desks.I don't actually know the exact reasons why bs jobs have become so prevalent, just that it's a massive part of our current economy.
(DIR) Post #A3F7AbF4C1RdbyUR4i by wizzwizz4@fosstodon.org
2021-01-14T23:00:01Z
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@urusan @oleg @tulpa @hurtado We can partly solve the problem of bullshit jobs. If we club together in medium-sized groups, we can hire people (preferably those who need it – solve two problems at once) to do something legitimately valuable. The more of us can do this, the more money there'll be in the “worthwhile economy” and the fewer of us will have to be outside it for bootstrapping purposes.Until we get buy-in from those controlling our fiat, though, it won't fully self-sustain.
(DIR) Post #A3F7jHVjXqGkYGp6Y5 by urusan@fosstodon.org
2021-01-14T23:06:17Z
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@oleg @wizzwizz4 @tulpa @hurtado If you approach it from the opposite direction, looking at industrial sector contributions to GDP, then the situation is even more dire.https://www.statista.com/statistics/247991/value-added-to-the-us-gdp-by-industry/While it's debatable which sectors are useful and useless, and which proportions of the broadly useful sectors are truly useful (ex. manufacturing is useful, but not all of it is useful), the actually important sectors of our economy only make up between 10%-50% of our total output.
(DIR) Post #A3F7vXB77TM0cP1MvI by oleg@fosstodon.org
2021-01-14T23:08:31Z
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@wizzwizz4 @urusan @tulpa @hurtado But aren't we doing it currently? A classical startup team is about 2-5 persons in a core and probably 2-10 outsource. But then we get investments, grow and have to hire more and more and more people to control tons of processes.
(DIR) Post #A3F8ErRrymaUzI4fMe by wizzwizz4@fosstodon.org
2021-01-14T23:11:49Z
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@oleg @urusan @tulpa @hurtado I'm not thinking of a business, which lives and dies by the whim of external demand. I'm thinking of artificially bootstrapping a parallel set of economic structures by basically *donating* to compensate somebody for valuable work that there isn't external demand for (among the wealthy, who largely determine what the market demands).“Get investments” is a problem – that ties you into the stock market, and *those* perverse incentives (grow grow grow!).
(DIR) Post #A3F8k96gNOM0jN58gC by urusan@fosstodon.org
2021-01-14T23:17:41Z
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@oleg @wizzwizz4 @tulpa @hurtado In particular, the largest sector in that data "Finance, insurance, real estate, rental, and leasing" is almost entirely pure rent seeking and makes up 20% of our economy.For instance, I recently did a refinance, which is basically when my mortgage company offers to give me a replacement mortgage loan, so they can take advantage of 0% interest money the government is handing out to them and charge me 4% interest. What's the point to this?
(DIR) Post #A3F9IlBVJJKIflqI8O by urusan@fosstodon.org
2021-01-14T23:23:55Z
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@oleg @wizzwizz4 @tulpa @hurtado This kind of thing is also why understanding what Murphy is talking about is important, even if you disagree that it's the way it should be, Murphy is more or less spot on in terms of how things are today (and while his analysis is UK-centric, the US has an almost identical structure with the Fed).These mortgage refinances basically would not happen without newly created government money being available, and these forces impact the markets.
(DIR) Post #A3F9aJjU7AyikE6n9U by wizzwizz4@fosstodon.org
2021-01-14T23:27:04Z
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@urusan @oleg @tulpa @hurtado There's nothing wrong with newly-created government money *per se* – it's that it's propping up the bullshit instead of going towards productive stuff that's the problem. (The US rejects the latter for being “socialism”, but I've no clue what's going on with the UK.)
(DIR) Post #A3FAOFG71R4XLgB3Ca by urusan@fosstodon.org
2021-01-14T23:36:09Z
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@wizzwizz4 @oleg @tulpa @hurtado The really pointless thing is the existence of a private middleman who can charge me 4% interest on almost my entire house. Shouldn't the government just loan me that money directly at 0% interest?Additionally, they sold ownership of my mortgage back to the government anyway...
(DIR) Post #A3FAUJqyqtyZKuJns0 by wizzwizz4@fosstodon.org
2021-01-14T23:37:05Z
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@urusan @oleg @tulpa @hurtado Have you looked at credit unions? Unless you signed a contract saying that you wouldn't pay it all off at once, you can pay it all off at once by borrowing money from somebody with less evil rates.
(DIR) Post #A3FBpqiBytDXHP2PhI by urusan@fosstodon.org
2021-01-14T23:52:19Z
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@wizzwizz4 @oleg @tulpa @hurtado That was the market rate at the time. I think it's actually just below 4% as well, but 4% is easier to say in an online conversation.If I did it again, it'd be closer to 3%.