Post A2beo54Pt5QuCPpE9Y by thor@pl.thj.no
(DIR) More posts by thor@pl.thj.no
(DIR) Post #A2bUwUi1RpJ8UXivuS by schratze@todon.nl
2020-12-26T20:12:35Z
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@pfx English has a combined tense/aspect system which can be confusing to learners of the language. It also causes confusion if you, as an English speaker, try to learn other languages. Tense is often divided into past, present and future. English does it that way. Aspect is a little more complicated. English uses the categories perfect (indicating a task that is done, finished) and progressive (indicating an ongoing or habitual task) which can both be on or off in all possible combinations.
(DIR) Post #A2bUwUt0my692cri2S by thor@pl.thj.no
2020-12-26T20:17:56.383443Z
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@schratze @pfx ah, so aspect is separate? i guess it makes sense. is doing, was doing, have been doing are ongoing but in the past tense, though without the usual change of the verb itself.
(DIR) Post #A2bUyqDwQXzpnWlyIC by thor@pl.thj.no
2020-12-26T20:18:25.701385Z
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@schratze @pfx err the latter two are in the past
(DIR) Post #A2bV872THLTaYSpQkC by schratze@todon.nl
2020-12-26T20:18:33Z
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@pfx so 2 types of progressive aspect (progressive, not progressive) multiplied with 2 types of perfective aspect (perfect, not perfect) make 4 types of aspect altogether. You can multiply that with 3 types of tense (past, present, future) and you arrive at 12 different tense/aspect combos for English.
(DIR) Post #A2bV87GIRwXFFLITIG by thor@pl.thj.no
2020-12-26T20:20:04.262375Z
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@schratze @pfx hmm, four types of aspect? examples?
(DIR) Post #A2bWTAVDhCuzKgsaum by schratze@todon.nl
2020-12-26T20:29:19Z
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@thor those are all progressive (ongoing), but only the second one is in past tense. "is doing" and "have been doing" are both present tense, even though semantically, the latter one happened in the past
(DIR) Post #A2bWTAhcx4qJxAgVFo by thor@pl.thj.no
2020-12-26T20:35:05.984838Z
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@schratze i should've said "had been doing" perhaps
(DIR) Post #A2bWW8raFO8X7Kl3Jo by schratze@todon.nl
2020-12-26T20:25:54Z
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@thor Simple: I eat Progressive: I am eating Perfect: I have eaten Perfect progressive: I have been eating
(DIR) Post #A2bcOrKTdgu4R0BPge by someonetellmetosleep@queer.party
2020-12-26T21:40:03Z
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@schratze @thor There are a lot more than 12 T/A combinations in English (although the majority of the technically possible combinations are only useful when talking about time travel). Because in English it's not just on or off, every aspect marker is an auxiliary verb can have further T/A applied onto it, so you can say that you "will have been having gone daily for two months tomorrow" and "will have been having" is something like "past progressive of future perfect".
(DIR) Post #A2bcOrTL6jzasUKUV6 by thor@pl.thj.no
2020-12-26T21:41:29.701357Z
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@someonetellmetosleep @schratze i'm glad i just intuitively understand these things without ever having needed to study what it's all called. i mean, it's interesting to look into it, but i'm glad i didn't learn english by studying grammar books.
(DIR) Post #A2bcUoydIXHGsOoC0W by thor@pl.thj.no
2020-12-26T21:42:38.118656Z
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@someonetellmetosleep @schratze more often than not, a native english speaker will tell me that my english is better than that of most native speakers. perhaps a bit of an exaggeration but flattering nevertheless.
(DIR) Post #A2bczPWC0EgytX5lY0 by someonetellmetosleep@queer.party
2020-12-26T21:43:57Z
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@schratze @thor and then there's the further problem that "will" is not actually a future tense marker, but a *mood* marker for future intentionality (notice that "I turn 25 tomorrow" is semantically in the future, but there's no "will", and you can also say "I am going to turn 25 tomorrow", which is semantically similar but grammatically quite different.)
(DIR) Post #A2bczPhtIk39ToZ6mW by thor@pl.thj.no
2020-12-26T21:48:07.117049Z
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@someonetellmetosleep @schratze good lord.in school, for norwegian, we leaned a very simplified version of the tenses there were only four spise (eat)spiser (eats, is/are eating)spiste (ate)har spist (has/have eaten)they didn't go into spis! (eat! [imperative])hadde spist (had eaten)vil ha spist (will have eaten)they kept it simple. kinda glad they did, or it would've been overwhelming.
(DIR) Post #A2bczSFzouWFOAXNDc by someonetellmetosleep@queer.party
2020-12-26T21:47:55Z
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@schratze @thor plus also the detail that perfect != perfective and in fact English simply does not have any way to express a general perfective, though the simple past can be used that way. ("I went to the store", 'went' is viewed as a single indivisible action, which is perfective, whereas "I go to the store" is actually habitual instead, because aspects mean different things in past and nonpast.)English's TAM is fiendishly complicated.
(DIR) Post #A2bd25YOgd5dqROs1w by thor@pl.thj.no
2020-12-26T21:48:38.694209Z
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@someonetellmetosleep @schratze not to mentionville ha spist (would have eaten)
(DIR) Post #A2bd6HxCWdPzSf0Lmy by thor@pl.thj.no
2020-12-26T21:49:24.872370Z
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@schratze @someonetellmetosleep now add on top of this grammatical gender (masculine, feminine, neuter) and some remnances of old norse cases...
(DIR) Post #A2bdD6AwiP9qxUgHnk by thor@pl.thj.no
2020-12-26T21:50:38.761529Z
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@schratze @someonetellmetosleep i feel Norwegian grammar is very similar to English grammar... except more complicated lol
(DIR) Post #A2bdET3n7GwMDuzGwy by thor@pl.thj.no
2020-12-26T21:50:53.050668Z
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@schratze @someonetellmetosleep not as complicated as German though...
(DIR) Post #A2bdVYvcYGEpLXJiNc by schratze@todon.nl
2020-12-26T21:53:47Z
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@thor grammar was a mistake
(DIR) Post #A2bdce8DbYA3VjaTSq by thor@pl.thj.no
2020-12-26T21:55:14.113707Z
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@schratze Norwegian grammar is somewhere between English and German in terms of complexity. a tad more complicated than Dutch however.
(DIR) Post #A2bdn4TqUlIq7sfrrU by thor@pl.thj.no
2020-12-26T21:57:07.978933Z
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@schratze Old Norse was a bit more like Hetman, but my understanding is that it wasn't *quite* there. it didn't have a definite article, for example.
(DIR) Post #A2bdx9FxaoYlpnz6US by thor@pl.thj.no
2020-12-26T21:58:55.753090Z
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@schratze oddly enough, the definite article in the continental Scandinavian languages was *introduced* later on as we lost our case system and the languages became more analytic than synthetic, largely due to heavy influence from Low German/Saxon (a language that resembles Dutch or Flamish to a large extent).
(DIR) Post #A2beDOjXohZATAZRuS by thor@pl.thj.no
2020-12-26T22:01:52.395196Z
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@schratze we introduced this odd thing that linguists call a suffixed definite article, but we call the definite form of the noun, the definite tense if you will. masculine:katt (cat)katten (the cat)katter (cats)kattene (the cats)neuter:hus (house)huset (the house)hus (houses)husene (the houses)feminine:dame (lady)dama (the lady)damer (ladies)damene (the ladies)
(DIR) Post #A2beUqK6Ua7axazPTU by thor@pl.thj.no
2020-12-26T22:05:01.185994Z
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@schratze the feminine form is getting less common. in some dialects it's more pronounced but if you look at Swedish and Danish, they dropped it already and only have a "common gender" and a "neuter gender", which basically uses the masculine ending all the time.at some point we might drop it too, but i suspect it'll take a few more centuries.
(DIR) Post #A2beVM76ISjZYX9TeK by schratze@todon.nl
2020-12-26T22:04:03Z
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@thor hmm a tense is temporal, you can't call the suffixed article a tense!
(DIR) Post #A2beaKteFUZlEIEb56 by thor@pl.thj.no
2020-12-26T22:06:02.973548Z
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@schratze well they call it a "form" in Norwegian. i guess i use the term "tense" because it feels as fundamental as a tense. it's not a "suffixed article", it's a feel to the noun, a fundamental part of it, not something "tossed on at the end"
(DIR) Post #A2belW13FPGYtw1nKi by thor@pl.thj.no
2020-12-26T22:08:01.037112Z
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@schratze it does not at all feel like saying "housethe". it blends in like the "es" in "houses" does. if Norway invented linguistics i suspect they would not describe it as a suffixed definite tense. rather, they would speak of this pesky additional word other languages need to accomplish what we do by merely altering the noun itself.
(DIR) Post #A2beo54Pt5QuCPpE9Y by thor@pl.thj.no
2020-12-26T22:08:31.917340Z
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@schratze a lack of something rather than some exotic addition
(DIR) Post #A2besqLe3FUvzH9eSm by thor@pl.thj.no
2020-12-26T22:09:23.539655Z
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@schratze *if Scandinavia invented
(DIR) Post #A2bf1CLu7lUYY5GAme by thor@pl.thj.no
2020-12-26T22:10:52.819793Z
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@schratze katta spiste maten the cat ate the foodthree words vs five. it's kinda handy i feel...
(DIR) Post #A2bf2GgPVZ6wGnMTuS by schratze@todon.nl
2020-12-26T22:10:38Z
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@thor it can be considered an inflection. Verb inflection is called conjugation (for tense, for example) and noun inflection is called declension. So you could say Norwegian nouns are declined for definiteness
(DIR) Post #A2bf3LaikFMzmYDNqK by thor@pl.thj.no
2020-12-26T22:11:17.620267Z
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@schratze that's a better term yes
(DIR) Post #A2bf8J6DRBydV8JN3Z by mar77i@gleasonator.com
2020-12-26T22:12:11.403832Z
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@thor @schratze Isn’t it more like definite case, the way Finnish would somehow express a kind of opposite indefinite case with the partitiivi?
(DIR) Post #A2bfFvKjgM2u6qjdDc by thor@pl.thj.no
2020-12-26T22:13:31.187426Z
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@schratze this guy gets at my point but he misses that we, too, mix number into the suffixes.
(DIR) Post #A2bfOtaZXP4xIyQ85w by thor@pl.thj.no
2020-12-26T22:15:10.360891Z
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@mar77i @schratze well, norway is said to not really have a case system, with the exception of the genitive, and some fixed phrases left over from Old Norse that people just say without intuitively understanding why they say it that way, because the system was lost.
(DIR) Post #A2bfRVUpZOkBS4ypdY by thor@pl.thj.no
2020-12-26T22:15:39.564691Z
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@mar77i @schratze cases have this tendency to relate one word in the sentence to another and the definite form doesn't do that
(DIR) Post #A2bfY0E6EFoeUtFf0a by thor@pl.thj.no
2020-12-26T22:16:48.798030Z
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@mar77i @schratze norwegian is very much an analytic language. word order is very significant. it wasn't as significant in old norse, but now we are pretty much like english in that regard, down to the SVO word order and VSO for questions.
(DIR) Post #A2bffcalz6PHVtUQsa by thor@pl.thj.no
2020-12-26T22:18:12.490291Z
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@mar77i @schratze we don't use auxiliary verbs as much as english. there is no equivalent to "got", so we say "have you food?" etc
(DIR) Post #A2bfjZk8WETHpskrzM by thor@pl.thj.no
2020-12-26T22:18:55.517126Z
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@mar77i @schratze at times, norwegian sentences translated word by word to english sounds like archaic english
(DIR) Post #A2bfqGZsArqaQE926i by thor@pl.thj.no
2020-12-26T22:20:06.778799Z
2 likes, 1 repeats
@mar77i @schratze same for the scandi languages in general. i can of course only speak with authority about my native language, but eh, the scandi languages are just dialects of a shared language. "a language is a dialect with a flag and an army" is painfully true of scandinavia
(DIR) Post #A2bgVMkG9G8HQIbJ32 by thor@pl.thj.no
2020-12-26T22:27:31.925002Z
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@mar77i @schratze with that said... spoken danish... there is this comic by a Swedish cartoonist where someone asks "is that the beer tent?" at a rock festival, and someone says "no, that's where the Danes stay".someone once said "Danish isn't a language. it's a throat disease!"it's so hard to make out what they're saying...in writing, their language is fine, but they just pronounce it like a drunk person, according to Swedes and Norwegians...
(DIR) Post #A2bgajMhTW9N1f8h3g by thor@pl.thj.no
2020-12-26T22:28:31.224399Z
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@mar77i @schratze "Danish is the weird one" is something Norwegians and Swedes can agree on. i'm sorry but it just isn't a beautiful language lol
(DIR) Post #A2bgk6EdoXvKYupxey by thor@pl.thj.no
2020-12-26T22:30:11.725162Z
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@mar77i @schratze and then there is Iceland, which... it's not ugly as such but nobody understands it apart from the Icelanders themselves...then again, they did invent Lazy Town... a bit strange...
(DIR) Post #A2bgve1yVFE6YyPxK4 by thor@pl.thj.no
2020-12-26T22:32:18.613705Z
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@mar77i @schratze i can pronounce Eyjafjallajökull though, the name of that volcano that erupted on Iceland and disrupted air traffic across Europe...EY-ya-fyah-luh-YUH-koor
(DIR) Post #A2bh0yzxyPIJ2b1We8 by thor@pl.thj.no
2020-12-26T22:33:16.523326Z
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@mar77i @schratze @mar77i @schratze i can pronounce Eyjafjallajökull though, the name of that volcano that erupted on Iceland and disrupted air traffic across Europe...EY-ya-FYAH-luh-YUH-cull
(DIR) Post #A2bhGAjubQAjnal0PA by thor@pl.thj.no
2020-12-26T22:35:59.865684Z
1 likes, 1 repeats
@mar77i @schratze related:
(DIR) Post #A2bhdKSWdDVibVfOfg by thor@pl.thj.no
2020-12-26T22:40:12.364364Z
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@mar77i @schratze funny thing is they misspelled Reykjavik (Smoke Bay). i can make out what the names mean, sorta:Hafnarfjorur - harbour fjord Köpavogur - purchase (trade) bayFjaroabyggo - shore town [possibly]
(DIR) Post #A2bhlRiXWsC7Qq1my0 by thor@pl.thj.no
2020-12-26T22:41:39.246081Z
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@mar77i @schratze fjære means ebb as opposed to tide so you could say Ebb Town.bygd in Norwegian is a rural townbygge means to build byggo sounds kinda like bygge but sinceit's a place name i'm gonna assume it's the same as bygd
(DIR) Post #A2biEUZG0jtMfaXJ2W by thor@pl.thj.no
2020-12-26T22:46:54.275026Z
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@mar77i @schratze as i said earlier, Icelandic sounds like some extremely thick rural dialect of of West Norwegian... which makes perfect sense:1. rural means conservative, i.e. closer to Old Norse2. west Norway is more sheltered from continental influences in general so they kept more stuff 3. Iceland was settled by vikings who migrated from Norway (as opposed to Sweden or Denmark) and what they speak even today is basically a direct descendant of West Old Norse. they can read the viking sagas without needing a translation whereas we can't.
(DIR) Post #A2biHiX2Y4xGqd2MLo by thor@pl.thj.no
2020-12-26T22:47:30.333496Z
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@mar77i @schratze 4. of course these migrants came from west Norway since Iceland is an island west of Norway.
(DIR) Post #A2bif9Jp7cjKaP1oye by thor@pl.thj.no
2020-12-26T22:51:44.340921Z
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@mar77i @schratze now it's not entirely accurate to say Viking since, the way the Norse would've used it, a Viking is someone from the Viken area, i.e. the inlet of the sea between Sweden and Norway, across from Denmark: