Post A07f8HPhlEmjmrZPH6 by Mafalda@spinster.xyz
(DIR) More posts by Mafalda@spinster.xyz
(DIR) Post #A07Lvxh1MFy41K5AG0 by steph@spinster.xyz
2020-10-13T11:05:50.344494Z
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can someone here define for me what “middle-class” means in the US and in the UK.thanks
(DIR) Post #A07Lw1EoB5mF0yugq0 by Nora@spinster.xyz
2020-10-13T11:31:30.494665Z
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@steph Slightly different meaning in the US to UK- in the UK it speaks far more of culture and sensibility than of money. It usually means that you’re earning quite well and can afford to own a home, but it encompasses a huge wealth bracket- from lower-earners up to very wealthy people. It’s more about the culture you were raised in- how you speak, whether or not you have the local accent, what kind of school you went to, what you buy, wear etc.In the US- and I could be wrong about this- I think it has a less negative resonance (it’s almost used as an insult here), and is more about your present situation- your wealth status etc. In the US for instance you get politicians speaking directly to “the middle class” and that’s seen as acceptable, whereas here it would be scorned.
(DIR) Post #A07OFTLk5Byzc2YoRU by LavendarMenace@spinster.xyz
2020-10-13T11:47:05.077633Z
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@Nora @steph If you don't mind me adding on about the US middle class. For the most part, in general, Americans view themselves as the middle class. Whether they are working class, middle class, or wealthy, they will tell you they are middle class. That's why US politicians latch onto the term. It's more of a pride thing rather than an actual belief. The only other thing I noticed is people who I'd consider middle class pretending they are working class to fit in with the general population.
(DIR) Post #A07f8F1WeAFuNIF4JE by Zephyranthes@spinster.xyz
2020-10-13T11:50:34.715023Z
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@steph in the US “middle class” is used vaguely by a lot of folks. Yet many people/households who would self-describe themselves as middle class are only one or two financial misfortunes (horrible medical bill, out of work for longer than expected) away from being in serious long term trouble. In my expierence people will describe themselves as middle class when they’ve got a university degree, are salaried instead of having an hourly wage, and they want to think of themselves, “Well I certainly couldn’t be working class? I’m better than that!!”
(DIR) Post #A07f8HPhlEmjmrZPH6 by Mafalda@spinster.xyz
2020-10-13T12:55:39.785676Z
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@Zephyranthes @steph yeah, in the US everyone likes to think of themselves as middle class. I think also, we sorta tend to think of class as disposable income/what we can buy. So you’ll have a person who makes $150k a year think he’s barely hit middle class because his mortgage is $4k a month, he has $1500 of medications for his kid every month and is still paying student loans. But you’ll have someone making $50k a year, no debt, saves a lot and the big family splurge is a cross country road trip every two years who considers themself to be solidly middle class.
(DIR) Post #A07f8KFtCBiSbI06tM by Mafalda@spinster.xyz
2020-10-13T13:04:43.528411Z
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@Zephyranthes @steph Paul Fussel had a book on American class, his view was that we do have a class system that derives from jolly old England and that it weighs more towards money than taste, though the hobbies and leisure activities are indicators. He wrote it in the 80s before the tech stuff made a lot of money for people as well as opened up a whole new lucrative field for people to work in. I wish he had written one in the 2000s.
(DIR) Post #A07f8NYmuNcEqlrkGW by CailleachBeinneBric@spinster.xyz
2020-10-13T13:07:33.401377Z
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@Mafalda @Zephyranthes @steph I would actually put belief that transwomen are women and queer theory more generally as a class marker for the middle class. It signals you have received the right kind of education from the right kind of place—after all, the good schools are now all teaching it, so only classless fools who went to a lesser institution or not at all could fail to understand this.
(DIR) Post #A07f8PNW9FmyUOblya by Mafalda@spinster.xyz
2020-10-13T13:12:31.892590Z
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@CailleachBeinneBric @Zephyranthes @steph in the US there would be a caveat to that - the segment of prosperous christians who are middle/upper middle and have socially conservative beliefs. Is that a thing in the UK?
(DIR) Post #A07f8SSagqd6300Mng by steph@spinster.xyz
2020-10-13T13:47:39.803306Z
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@Mafalda @CailleachBeinneBric @Zephyranthes in france “classe moyenne” is defined as the class who is richer than the 30% lower but poorer than the 20% richer .but from reading the US / UK articles i have the impression that for you middle class is really richer than for us.I don’t know if that makes sense for anyone but me.
(DIR) Post #A07f8Ug8RSeUvaMDBo by HebrideanHecate@spinster.xyz
2020-10-13T14:10:53.736963Z
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@steph @Mafalda @CailleachBeinneBric @Zephyranthes It’s not a thing where I come from, but I’d say if you’re talkingabout luxury beliefs a la Vebler, then it’s pertinent re the alreadymentioned queer theory bullshit etc etc.America seems to focus more on money than the UK.I’ve been considered “posh” outwith my cultural background, which I find beyond bizarre, it’s not a thing for islanders, butcertainly we are often looked down upon by others, as beinglesser.
(DIR) Post #A07f8W8t03FDT2ogds by Mafalda@spinster.xyz
2020-10-13T14:45:51.246241Z
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@HebrideanHecate Do you have a thing on your island - it’s incredibly beautiful! - where wealthy people have vacation homes? Or even live there full time because they can work remotely?
(DIR) Post #A07f8WQxuphqN7H7p2 by HebrideanHecate@spinster.xyz
2020-10-13T14:48:50.887958Z
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@Mafalda Don’t get me started! Second home owning has destroyed somany rural communities.
(DIR) Post #A07hyM3rvR0bAWJcOm by JohnGritt@freespeechextremist.com
2020-10-13T15:38:28.615982Z
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@Mafalda @Zephyranthes @steph A $200,000 a year surgeon or anesthesiologist is not middle class. See my work and skip to the heading: 'AND NOW, THE REAL MEANING OF MIDDLE CLASS'http://truedollarjournal.blogspot.com/2014/05/but-were-you-ever-in-middle-class.htmlThere is a clip there taken from The Independent, December 8, 1917.#politics #economics #MiddleClass
(DIR) Post #A07itS8C1xsEV3Z3c8 by Mafalda@spinster.xyz
2020-10-13T15:48:47.357943Z
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@JohnGritt @Zephyranthes @steph that was my understanding of middle class as well, but so much of the “common knowledge” seems to be different these days. I am NOT any sort of knowledgable person on this, these are all just my perceptions and also comments on how I see people define middle class, if that makes sense. For example, I work in higher ed, was in the military and grew up in two worlds of dirt poor/middle class (in the traditional sense, my grandparents had investments and property.) So many of my peers both use middle class as a near pejorative (what does he know about real life, he grew up middle class) but also as a sort of praise (look how well he’s done even though his middle class parents couldn’t pay for college!). For people they want to dismiss as out of tough, middle class means well off; for people they want to praise as bootstrappers, middle class means just making ends meet. (Again this is not actual economic def of middle class, but how regular people I know refer to it.)
(DIR) Post #A07jJeRqrIYEEJFgiu by Mafalda@spinster.xyz
2020-10-13T15:53:31.393819Z
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@JohnGritt @Zephyranthes @steph I am also really interested in this from an amateur point of view. My odd back ground and mixed social group expose to all types and I never fit it. I love observing how everyone acts.
(DIR) Post #A07jKlVo55iIQYdJy4 by JohnGritt@freespeechextremist.com
2020-10-13T15:53:43.926223Z
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@Mafalda @Zephyranthes @steph Yes Mafalda, and many (if not most) today say ridiculous to mean "bitchin', cool, gnarly rather than worthy of ridicule.Middling intellect people misuse words until the mass of people accept the new misused meaning.Quite often too, for political propaganda reasons, propagandists take words to twist or to pied piper people to where they want them to believe.A good example is the word now used for fear purposes, 'systemic'. The right word is systematic. The word systemic was coined by biologists specifically for biology. It has since been co-opted by political propagandists.
(DIR) Post #A07ja0SGo1O37FFL9c by Mafalda@spinster.xyz
2020-10-13T15:56:28.628947Z
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@JohnGritt @Zephyranthes @steph well, most people are middling intellect. Or just not informed, but prob quite a bit more intelligent than it appears because have not been exposed to ideas. But I’m way off topic. I am also caffeinated and prone to typing quickly without organizing my thoughts.
(DIR) Post #A07kbAjMBdsDEFMHSq by JohnGritt@freespeechextremist.com
2020-10-13T16:07:54.116476Z
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@Mafalda @Zephyranthes @steph Yes, social control is a fascinating topic.There are mind masters who leverage instincts like sympathy, sociability and justice to propagate suggestions, which when taken up by many become public opinion. The goal is to achieve social influence by forming mobs, persuading people into fashion, to get new behavior to become custom, convention.The goal of social influence of course is social control and that gives those who do it, social domination.
(DIR) Post #A07mSK5WE6TBYJdHeK by JohnGritt@freespeechextremist.com
2020-10-13T16:28:42.773421Z
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@Mafalda @Zephyranthes @steph Middle class became a phrase used by wily politicians directed at US taxpayers who have mortgages and other indebtness.To me, it is all too clear. Middle class has lost its true meaning in the USA. Socialists tried to co-opt it. Vote-seeking politicians and the National Association of Realtors succeeded in doing so in the Age of Mass Media (TV, magazines).The poor: renters, welfare collectees, food stamps.Middle class: mortgage debt,credit card debt, student loan debt; need tax deductions to stave off personal bankruptcy.Upper class: live off of investments; tax avoidance is a means to getting richer.Poor people lack indebtedness. They have no credit and not enough income for tax filing, typically. Rich people use debt as leverage to generate income."Middle class" use debt for consumerism. Now one could argue that student loans are debt to gain income and this is true mostly if one studies engineering, accounting, or advanced degrees of medicine, law. Most other majors qualify people for federal government work.Some might argue that a house is an investment because of supposed appreciation. But people lose on that supposed investment for maybe 20 years of a 30-year mortgage and cash accretion masks the true price of houses.Historically, the average mortgage monthly payment fluctuates between 16% and 18% of monthly income after stripping away the effects of "inflation." People in truth, on average, never profit from house ownership.So #MiddleClass as a phrase in the #USA today means those who take on debt to consumer, principally mortgage debt, student loan debt and credit card debt.