Post 9wF8Tv1d4xBOrfHdIW by Coffee@toot.cafe
(DIR) More posts by Coffee@toot.cafe
(DIR) Post #9wECizVYtpuplnlb84 by karan@fosstodon.org
2020-06-19T02:53:37Z
1 likes, 2 repeats
I'm curious.How much money do you pay for real hard news per month (not social media, not cable news, no trade publications).Do let me know in replies what you subscribe to.Poll is USD but if your currency is different, please reply with your response.#news #journalism #media
(DIR) Post #9wECizwVHfSz7MN77g by tomosaigon@fosstodon.org
2020-06-19T03:22:52Z
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@karan I am thinking of journalism as a public good, and susceptible to the tragedy of the commons
(DIR) Post #9wECn2mEghOR4CUxSy by karan@fosstodon.org
2020-06-19T03:23:36Z
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@tomosaigon very much so (and shameless plug https://goel.io/pay-for-news)
(DIR) Post #9wETSAPGpAmxrwO4au by amolith@social.nixnet.services
2020-06-19T06:30:18Z
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@karan Well. I voted for $0 and was about to say I don't pay for any news but then I thought about it and decided to subscribe to LWN at the $7/mo tier. Other than that, it's all RSS feeds from various sources such as Lobsters, Slashdot, and blogs.
(DIR) Post #9wEUU9Xx5nr5jdxWNs by EdwardTorvalds@mstdn.io
2020-06-19T06:41:51Z
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@karan 'I can't afford' and 'don't want to pay' should not be in same option
(DIR) Post #9wEnnCQeUzSVJ0L9PM by WhoNeedszZz@fosstodon.org
2020-06-19T03:09:46Z
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@karan Follow-up question: do you believe you should need to pay for the news?
(DIR) Post #9wEnnCo360AqTZHpsO by karan@fosstodon.org
2020-06-19T03:11:20Z
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@WhoNeedszZz In my fantasy world, you needn't pay for anything.In the real world though, you need to pay for movies, or music, or furniture, or food. So my question is why wouldn't you pay for news.https://goel.io/pay-for-news
(DIR) Post #9wEnnD680mdTNdkH3Y by WhoNeedszZz@fosstodon.org
2020-06-19T03:14:23Z
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@karan It's an interesting point. Thing is all of your examples except for food are entertainment. Then again most "news" is nothing but entertainment since it is a biased and opinionated version of current events. Maybe that should be a clue about what is really going on.
(DIR) Post #9wEnnDNUyCWwFVs98C by karan@fosstodon.org
2020-06-19T03:16:34Z
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@WhoNeedszZz Some movies you (legally) watch will be horrible. You still pay for them.Why can't the same be true for news? It's a business after all, and I know no one who doesn't consume their product.I agree that a lot of news is garbage, but local, independent news is pretty solid.
(DIR) Post #9wEnnDd62D0V1tAbRY by kungtotte@fosstodon.org
2020-06-19T05:47:21Z
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@karan @WhoNeedszZz sometimes I watch a movie or a show and it'll be terrible, that's true. On Netflix that's amortized with all the good stuff I watch. I didn't pay $10 for a bad show, I paid $10 for -all- the shows I watch. I also get to pick what I want to see.With news there's no balancing "good news" factor, and I have no say in what they show me. I pay $10 for the news and I can wind up with a month's worth of absolutely shit news (both quality of reporting and subject matter).1/n
(DIR) Post #9wEnnDuSzctxtlITWC by kungtotte@fosstodon.org
2020-06-19T05:50:29Z
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@karan @WhoNeedszZz Netflix is also entirely ad free and runs perfectly on all three platforms I consume it on (smart TV, Android, Linux desktop).Print and digital magazines are chock full of ads and their websites are bloated behemoths of JS fuckery. News radio around here is relegated to headline blurbs twice an hour between ads and shitty music. On TV you don't endure ads during the newscast but it's not high quality reporting at all, looping what amounts to stock footage while (cont.) 2/n
(DIR) Post #9wEnnFnnxMlFlgCBPc by kungtotte@fosstodon.org
2020-06-19T05:53:46Z
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@karan @WhoNeedszZz ... spouting uninformed opinions about whatever is going on instead of delivering actual information to the public.I absolutely agree that we need quality journalism as a balance to government and corporations to keep them in line, and I'd probably pay for it if the option existed.It doesn't exist today though. Good journalists are extremely rare and the delivery of the news is a shit show as I mentioned before.Steam, Spotify, and Netflix are killing it right now. 3/n
(DIR) Post #9wEnnG6apVn2hwzBhI by kungtotte@fosstodon.org
2020-06-19T05:56:18Z
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@karan @WhoNeedszZz And they got big by building the platform first and offering the customers something that was better than the alternatives. They didn't require users to pay up front against promises of content down the line, they put the content up first and said "this costs $10 a month for an ad-free quality experience". (Slightly different in the case of Steam, but you know what I mean).tl;dr: don't expect people to pay unless you're selling something worthwhile.
(DIR) Post #9wEnnGP1iyXFd7buQi by karan@fosstodon.org
2020-06-19T06:18:23Z
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@kungtotte @WhoNeedszZz I hear your reasons. I hate ads and tracking when I pay too.I do also understand that ad-free would mean subscriptions costing $50 or above. Scroll.com is interesting in that regard.Last question - what do you imagine totally unbiased and fair news (your definition) looks like?
(DIR) Post #9wEnnGlMNwOqkO3kEy by simon@fosstodon.org
2020-06-19T10:18:09Z
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@karan @kungtotte @WhoNeedszZz the BBC costs nothing like this and you get news, radio and quality TV programming too.
(DIR) Post #9wF5MIR3rBMhI5qvj6 by karan@fosstodon.org
2020-06-19T13:35:02Z
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@amolith Solid. I do think it's worth it to support the content we consume even if it's not perfect all the time.
(DIR) Post #9wF6G91G3LNYItPinA by karan@fosstodon.org
2020-06-19T13:45:08Z
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@EdwardTorvalds I know I sent the toot while I was still editing it âšī¸
(DIR) Post #9wF6XyCT17utxe9mAy by karan@fosstodon.org
2020-06-19T13:48:22Z
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@simon @kungtotte @WhoNeedszZz the power of state funding (or the downside?)
(DIR) Post #9wF7nBxSFQr0vbxOW8 by wizzwizz4@fosstodon.org
2020-06-19T14:02:18Z
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@simon @karan @kungtotte @WhoNeedszZz It does cost: it costs Brits the TV License Fee.
(DIR) Post #9wF8Tv1d4xBOrfHdIW by Coffee@toot.cafe
2020-06-19T11:22:30Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@karan Not paying for news because I don't news.Not that I don't have the money, but I don't have the time or the stomach for day-to-day affairs like "$POLITICIAN1 said $WORDS to $POLITICIAN2, here's what $EXPERT has to say about that."I also don't give a shit about celebrities, aka people whose everyday lives and opinions are reported because their everyday lives and opinions are reported because reasons.1/2
(DIR) Post #9wF8TvNFmYTpwjOu0G by Coffee@toot.cafe
2020-06-19T11:31:05Z
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@karan It seems wasteful to buy a daily newspaper subscription just to skim over the headlines only when I have time, and *maybe* read one in-depth article per week, but probably closer to one per month. Then there's the thing where I don't really trust a single source of news.If something is truly important, it will find its way to me. Maybe a week or two later, but that's the price of peace of mind.2/2
(DIR) Post #9wF91AYsKvO2bbgmky by nitox@fosstodon.org
2020-06-19T14:16:02Z
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@karan Simple,Would i die if i don't see news? Nope.Would i die if i don't eat?Yes.Would i die if i don't get entertained?Nope, but i can pay fair enough entertainment.--Good journalism is about commitment, honor of sharing the truth, if you don't want to share it freely, someone will.If after centuries of news existing on our daily lives, we still don't pay for them, there is a good reason for that, don't you think?
(DIR) Post #9wF9du7HPeXUtbFfE0 by karan@fosstodon.org
2020-06-19T14:23:03Z
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@nitox no. The reason we didn't pay for news is because they didn't need our money - ads made up 90% of the revenue.Now, they don't have that ad revenue. So they need our money.You've clearly set the bar arbitrarily to justify your position.My opinion is that if I'm consuming someone's product regularly, I'm going to pay for it. It's a matter of being fair. It's a matter of upholding institutions that hold the powerful accountable.
(DIR) Post #9wF9qy5rw8hMzmoyTw by kungtotte@fosstodon.org
2020-06-19T14:25:20Z
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@simon @karan @WhoNeedszZz the BBC webpage is better than most, that's true, it's still bloated with JS and crap. Looking at the source of the mobile page, the first actual page content shows up 700 lines down. That's a whole lot of unnecessary stuff before you're at the actual content.As a frame of reference, my personal web page has 18 lines preceding the content, half of which are the navigation links.
(DIR) Post #9wFAqk4CBl4xRhUibw by nitox@fosstodon.org
2020-06-19T14:36:34Z
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@karan News are so biased that i got into a point where i don't even see a need of them, so why paying?
(DIR) Post #9wFBFsL4ZOJcLDNCDo by Piejacker875@linuxrocks.online
2020-06-19T14:41:08Z
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@karan I think you should have separated the "I can't afford" from the "I don't want to pay".
(DIR) Post #9wFBK6edHrdZtkXW5I by karan@fosstodon.org
2020-06-19T14:41:53Z
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@nitox Because they keep the powerful in check.I'm with you on the bias point; what does complete unbiased news look like to you?
(DIR) Post #9wFBO1DPS3FQBgfhtA by karan@fosstodon.org
2020-06-19T14:42:32Z
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@Piejacker875 I know I sent the toot whike I was still editing it.
(DIR) Post #9wFBpJZvHmc4xUDZtA by nitox@fosstodon.org
2020-06-19T14:47:31Z
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@karan Once from a non-profit organization which of course accept donations, patreon, librepay...I guess i would really pay for objective journalism who compares other articles, and be consistently reliable, but of course i would make this completely optional.I think good quality and truthful source news without a profit organization will be what "unbiased news" look like to me.
(DIR) Post #9wFBrSXMwqb3K52usC by nitox@fosstodon.org
2020-06-19T14:47:55Z
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@karan One from a non-profit organization which of course accept donations, patreon, librepay...I guess i would really pay for objective journalism who compares other articles, and be consistently reliable, but of course i would make this completely optional.I think good quality and truthful source news without a profit organization will be what "unbiased news" look like to me.
(DIR) Post #9wFBxv5DjBLbatxbAe by nitox@fosstodon.org
2020-06-19T14:49:00Z
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@karan Probably also not being subject of any kind of influence from either a government or a private powerful company...
(DIR) Post #9wFBzsTWOZgM5JGDLc by karan@fosstodon.org
2020-06-19T14:49:18Z
1 likes, 2 repeats
@nitox ok that makes sense.I think if you can you should definitely donate to non-profit newsrooms. There's hundreds that need your support.I have some resources in https://goel.io/pay-for-news
(DIR) Post #9wFC71MPl4DhfYLIH2 by karan@fosstodon.org
2020-06-19T14:50:44Z
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@nitox this requirement is very limiting, but yeah non profit newsrooms are well positioned
(DIR) Post #9wFC7c1nQgiDOJyqm0 by nitox@fosstodon.org
2020-06-19T14:50:50Z
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@karan Also, a news source who is commons based, probably allowing people to contribute on news, not only commenting on them.
(DIR) Post #9wFCDyaqRer777PP6W by karan@fosstodon.org
2020-06-19T14:51:58Z
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@nitox Strong disagree with this. Citizen journalism is guaranteed to be more biased and not follow through processes that newsrooms generally do (double confirmations, fact checking, style checking, etc).
(DIR) Post #9wFCVNr7ly06O4K8mW by nitox@fosstodon.org
2020-06-19T14:55:07Z
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@karan Hacker news is a good example, they expose a link with someone commenting about a topic, and then a lot of people discussing this until they "probably?" get into a better conclusion for themselves? (much like reddit maybe too)A format where peoples opinion is equally important than the news/article itself.Only discussion and acceptance is the way of building a reasonably good truth base. This is the commons i talk about.
(DIR) Post #9wFCjXPr1bsa5kJlAm by nitox@fosstodon.org
2020-06-19T14:57:40Z
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@karan To get a 5 (a middle point) you need a 1, 8, and a 6, they add-up to 15, but the middle point of each "opinion" is five. You follow me? We need opinion quantity, and also people willing to give/accept opinions.
(DIR) Post #9wFCvHhPHmU6p083bU by karan@fosstodon.org
2020-06-19T14:59:48Z
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@nitox hacker news is toxic, exclusionary. I wouldn't uphold it as an example of good conversation.I like the forums of ars technica though
(DIR) Post #9wFCyRJQ07kvVMPfQO by nitox@fosstodon.org
2020-06-19T15:00:21Z
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@karan What you essentially flag as "important" is usually political bullshit, and that's just a matter of the government, i don't care about this high-responsibility grown childs...News about capitalism? who cares?
(DIR) Post #9wFD7FyPWmyAwbn77g by nitox@fosstodon.org
2020-06-19T15:01:59Z
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@karan As i said, it depends on the people, we need to teach people to debate, discuss and accept.If someone doesn't know how to do this, of course it will become toxic... But you can't just give up on this, people need second chances and need to improve as a person.
(DIR) Post #9wFDDMb7oMXRE8oMwi by karan@fosstodon.org
2020-06-19T15:03:04Z
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@nitox umm... That's not how truth works.You're talking about public consensus.There's huge issues with that, the first one being that it only accounts for opinions of people who have the means to give it.
(DIR) Post #9wFDPajV5Dd0XcYlEm by nitox@fosstodon.org
2020-06-19T15:05:17Z
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@karan Neither one source of truth and federated consensus on a topic are 100% perfect, this both have flaws.I don't thing we need capitalism on news too, that's what i think...
(DIR) Post #9wFDQX2eIBPLNnxs8W by karan@fosstodon.org
2020-06-19T15:05:28Z
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@nitox Well I care that a huge corporation bribed my local politician. Or politicians themselves being corrupt (https://www.latimes.com/local/bell/la-me-bell-scandal-a-times-investigation-20160211-storygallery.html).On the one hand, you are asking for unbiased news, on the other you are asking for all checks for bias to be removed.
(DIR) Post #9wFDSB3Z0IkJmBB2iu by karan@fosstodon.org
2020-06-19T15:05:46Z
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@nitox lol ok
(DIR) Post #9wFDVf0W6UeVXHPexk by karan@fosstodon.org
2020-06-19T15:06:23Z
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@nitox Fair. We agree on that mostly.Do donate to your local non profit newsrooms if you can then.
(DIR) Post #9wFDbZKM8PzbenVfhQ by nitox@fosstodon.org
2020-06-19T15:07:27Z
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@karan Yeah i surely will if i find it useful and giving for people on their city/village đ
(DIR) Post #9wFGNkSyDumW0odmgi by kev@fosstodon.org
2020-06-19T15:38:19Z
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@kungtotte> Bloated behemoths of JS fuckery This actually made my laugh out loud. Nice job! đ¤Ŗđ¤Ŗ@karan @WhoNeedszZz
(DIR) Post #9wFGxdgMvIYTOh1Oym by tomosaigon@fosstodon.org
2020-06-19T15:45:04Z
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@karan thought exercise for me, should journalists be a charity or like a charity?
(DIR) Post #9wFHQD1X7OmX7BXoLQ by raboof@quey.org
2020-06-19T11:56:57Z
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@karan 0 - not because I can't or don't want to pay, but because I'm information-overloaded anyway and don't need another inbox that I'll feel guilty about neglecting... I see the flaws in this logic but that's how it goes ;).
(DIR) Post #9wFHQDkCRKVjLiRTxw by karan@fosstodon.org
2020-06-19T13:52:20Z
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@raboof fair. If you can though, you should donate to a local newsroom around you. No guilt đ
(DIR) Post #9wFHQEWPY54jlEzz72 by tomosaigon@fosstodon.org
2020-06-19T15:50:06Z
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@karan @raboof thinking out loud, maybe instead of donating money, our community could develop tools (software) to "improve" journalism or make it cost less to produce, and also tools to assist the public in consuming public research
(DIR) Post #9wFHmGauWWKOYlbrm4 by raboof@quey.org
2020-06-19T15:54:11Z
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@tomosaigon @karan as a small first step in that vein, I recently wrote a script to make already-available local public news fragments accessible in podcast form (https://github.com/raboof/drtv2podcast) - I guess I should polish that up and make some noise about it ;).
(DIR) Post #9wFIRI0MBUgko64azg by karan@fosstodon.org
2020-06-19T16:01:37Z
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@tomosaigon I personally don't think so. They produce something if immense value at great risk (forget the tabloids and Fox news).They should be paid for their hard work.Publications can be non profit of course. But reporters and journalists should absolutely not be volunteers.
(DIR) Post #9wFIXWTRIlJ3Q4eGum by karan@fosstodon.org
2020-06-19T16:02:44Z
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@tomosaigon @raboof most of the cost of producing journalism is actually people. I don't think technology some will solve the problem of underfunded newsrooms (but can help).
(DIR) Post #9wFJeLHbPKDMh0vZNA by karan@fosstodon.org
2020-06-19T14:05:32Z
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@wizzwizz4 @simon @kungtotte @WhoNeedszZz is that a tax or can you opt out of it?Either way, I like it.
(DIR) Post #9wFJeM70KDKbGQycUa by wizzwizz4@fosstodon.org
2020-06-19T14:06:34Z
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@karan @simon @kungtotte @WhoNeedszZz It's effectively a tax on everybody with a television, or who uses BBC stuff. It funds some transmission towers and the BBC.
(DIR) Post #9wFJeMs9Uv2rcf2Gyu by karan@fosstodon.org
2020-06-19T14:07:01Z
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@wizzwizz4 @simon @kungtotte @WhoNeedszZz how progressive.
(DIR) Post #9wFJeNphvUgSbMtpoG by simon@fosstodon.org
2020-06-19T16:15:10Z
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@karan @wizzwizz4 @kungtotte @WhoNeedszZz in addition to a decent news service(especially in comparison to US news, although it falls over itself trying too hard to appear balanced), there's no adverts on the website or TV channels/radio. On the downside some of their staff are way overpaid and need a wage cap. They also produced the world's best wildlife documentaries. If all other news services were paywalled I probably wouldn't pay for any, but might read a Newsweek/economist type publication
(DIR) Post #9wFOtYoNtDwGlYKxIO by wizzwizz4@fosstodon.org
2020-06-19T17:13:56Z
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@simon @karan @kungtotte @WhoNeedszZz> although it falls over itself trying too hard to appear balancedAh, yes. I remember the most recent election's coverage â interviewers played along with the rhetoric because to call it out would be to appear partial (Mr. Johnson did so far more than any other candidate), so while each individual interview looked okay, on the whole the more honest candidates got more of their flaws exposed.Esse quam videri, BBC.1/2