Post 9vVPYoDpit2mDk5OMq by wyatwerp@fsmi.social
(DIR) More posts by wyatwerp@fsmi.social
(DIR) Post #9vKHK9hAfRVA6QkcWu by grainloom@cybre.space
2020-05-23T03:44:55Z
9 likes, 6 repeats
no, having 8 gigs of RAM doesn't change my policy on web / Electron apps.which is: screw Electron.note: i will not be taking suggestions about Electron in the replies. i've heard every Electron apologist argument.
(DIR) Post #9vKRj9Z3I4MiTgVnsW by lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me
2020-05-23T05:47:10.707671Z
4 likes, 1 repeats
@grainloom I have 32 gigabytes of RAM on my desktop and Electron can go eat a brick:- It's a binary of chromium that doesn't works on my main install (probably missing librairies)- Getting logs as to why it doesn't works looks painful as fuck- It's a complete waste of storage, RAM, CPU, bandwidth, …- I already have a web browser, I don't need yours- Programs written in it are likely not going to last in even short-term
(DIR) Post #9vKRyCoDVdrsstmaY4 by kragen@nerdculture.de
2020-05-23T05:49:47Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@grainloom what would a sane Electron-like environment look like?
(DIR) Post #9vKTPWDVYj5SqlCTCK by neauoire@merveilles.town
2020-05-23T03:48:59Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@grainloom 8gb of RAM, that's at least 1.5 electron apps runnings at once.
(DIR) Post #9vKUd4NNy08gVnqUtc by roman@devs.live
2020-05-23T06:19:41.775200Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@lanodan @grainloom while I agree with this mostly, there is at least 1 example of a really well-thought, well-working app that doesn't frustrate users. And, surprise, it's from Microsoft - It's VSC.On the other hand if you are about to write an app and consider Electron - forget about it, for god's sake
(DIR) Post #9vKV3d2lhFGXYnrmvA by lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me
2020-05-23T06:24:29.717147Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@roman @grainloom Maybe VS Code is great but it doesn't need Electron and one thing that I quite like with vi-derived or even emacs is that it's very fast.
(DIR) Post #9vKVCdw1kh1Ovm0nWS by loke@functional.cafe
2020-05-23T06:22:45Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@lanodan @grainloom Same for me. With 32 GB of RAM it's sometimes possible to use Electron applications, but "being able to use" an application should not be something to celebrate.
(DIR) Post #9vKVCe851sf9X9eQJE by lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me
2020-05-23T06:26:03.777228Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@loke @grainloom Well ram of not I can't launch any electron app and I have no idea why, just some guesses.An application should report it's errors, that's the absolute minimum.
(DIR) Post #9vKVoF5Wa2eqsFNnRw by roman@devs.live
2020-05-23T06:32:55.167853Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@lanodan @grainloom unfortunately neither (n)vim nor emacs are really fast enough (with all the plugins you need to work, we're not talking plain installations, right?) to cover the difference. And I still have most of vim stuff in there, along with full-featured ElixirLS :)And the reason why they initially started using Electron is because it was based on Monaco iirc, which was a web-editor. Of course I'd vote for native rather than electron, but I don't think that is coming anytime soon since that will essentially mean dropping cross-platform support and need to significantly increase the team to bring it back.
(DIR) Post #9vKWRbNzbxEhK6mzzc by lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me
2020-05-23T06:40:01.954576Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@roman @grainloom Well I hope they're going to enjoy debugging chromium if VS Code doesn't works anymore, I stopped using IDEs here because they tend to be a single-point of failure with almost no proper recovery/fallback, or just a pain when using multiple devices.
(DIR) Post #9vKX0JFD3MtJC3EN4i by lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me
2020-05-23T06:46:18.231427Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@roman @grainloom Why would you drop cross-platform? Qt for example supports more platforms than Electron.And by fast I meant response-time, like typing text or loading a file.Sure stuff like plugins are going to be faster than to the huge optimisations on V8 but in my experience they're rarely needed and could be done with tools provided by the language (like renaming variables in Go is really nice). And an appropriate code-style.And If we really need plugins for a language maybe it's time to consider it a blob.
(DIR) Post #9vKYMYeIYlNJIM8eoa by roman@devs.live
2020-05-23T07:01:30.902756Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@lanodan @grainloom I was talking about writing native apps, not another multi-platform wrapper (that also sucks in it's own ways) - only that would make significant change imo.and plugins: ElixirLS is the best example of what I want, but in Vim I could only get parts of it (like poor code completion via ctags) for double the price of performance. Btw, Go plugin in VSC is something I was absolutely amazed by, though never worked with Go from Vim and never worked with Go for serious at all.
(DIR) Post #9vKdPthBGVrdD1tlx2 by pence@scholar.social
2020-05-23T07:57:58Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@kragen @grainloom A web browser?
(DIR) Post #9vKtLijFhBEDIyticK by dch@bsd.network
2020-05-23T10:56:30Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@kragen @grainloom how close is qt to being cross platform and full featured?
(DIR) Post #9vKtuZdHVVTrEFixpg by dch@bsd.network
2020-05-23T11:01:55Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@roman @lanodan @grainloom I used to run a cluster that served an entire university on a smaller system than what electron in vscode consumes. It’s highly optimised massive bloatware let’s not kid ourselves the emperor has no clothes.
(DIR) Post #9vL2ODGm13ssBxqANM by aktivismoEstasMiaLuo@activism.openworlds.info
2020-05-23T12:37:50Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@kragen @grainloom A sane app is developed in C/++, Ada, Java, or any other reasonable language of choice (not j/s), and it possibly uses something #cURL bindings to connect to the web-based service.
(DIR) Post #9vLA9tWzPDWOYN6noW by bonibon@lor.sh
2020-05-23T13:39:10Z
1 likes, 1 repeats
@grainloom Electron is shit. Every package contains a full web browser copy, which is very heavy (because of Chrome). Unlike libraries such as Sciter, which are only for UI, not for full logic, Electron uses Javascript for everything, which causes memory leaks and high memory consumption.So fuck Electron.Sorry for my shitty English.
(DIR) Post #9vLS9BW8qVNJDqWVdo by keithzg@fediverse.keithzg.ca
2020-05-23T06:09:59.149248Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@grainloom @jalcine I mean hell as a user of Qt-based DEs I even just resent that it brings a ton of GTK junk with it and insists on using the horrible Gnome file dialog window, ughh.Plus the whole "but it's super portable because it's based on web technologies!" well why have I been unable to compile any Electron apps on ARM then eh? I've compiled much else, but Electron apps always seem to find a way to make it impossible.
(DIR) Post #9vNI4G2dzFpga3eqRs by CyberSocialist@social.privacytools.io
2020-05-24T05:34:11Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@grainloom surely it’s better than no app?
(DIR) Post #9vNI4GKMvM0jT1x04m by grainloom@cybre.space
2020-05-24T14:33:55Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@CyberSocialist no
(DIR) Post #9vNITWAb9wgXqDQJGK by wyatwerp@fsmi.social
2020-05-23T17:10:59.489470Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@aktivismoEstasMiaLuoAs a C++ dev, I take umbrage on it being called reasonable. There is a reason GNOME has #Vala (it must have been a difficult choice to maintain a language too). #D ? https://dlang.org now an official part of GCC (and an unofficial part for ages before that). #OCaml ?#CommonLisp ? Shipping the compiler with the app doesn't seem onerous compared to putting up with Electron.#CPlusPlus@kragen @grainloom
(DIR) Post #9vNITWJobg3eInjfd2 by phoe@functional.cafe
2020-05-23T17:21:19Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
Common Lisp programmer here.Shipping the compiler with the app doesn't seem onerous compared to putting up with Electron.@wyatwerp "The compiler" makes it often sound like it's something huge. On Steel Bank Common Lisp, it weighs several megabytes of disk space and up to twenty megabytes or so of RAM when uncompressed; if an application does not use the compiler at all, it can be easily swapped out to hard disk by the OS.@aktivismoEstasMiaLuo @grainloom @kragen
(DIR) Post #9vVPYnBfZRid0k49M8 by wyatwerp@fsmi.social
2020-05-23T17:45:00.211680Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@phoeCommon Lisp fan here. I didn't intend to make SBCL packaging look like overhead, rather point out that its relatively small and quite justifiable overhead is complained about by the bog-standard dev while Electron has acceptance.BTW, how does one get over paran-phobia if years of Emacs hasn't done the job? Also lack of pattern-matching (on values, not just types).@aktivismoEstasMiaLuo @grainloom @kragen
(DIR) Post #9vVPYnMeuaVdYpCvU8 by grainloom@cybre.space
2020-05-23T19:26:51Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@wyatwerp @aktivismoEstasMiaLuo @phoe @kragen idk about CL, but Scheme can match on builtin types.in Guile it's the (ice-9 match) module.but i do miss having proper algebraic data types and pattern matching for everything.
(DIR) Post #9vVPYngVimOAYOUmQa by phoe@functional.cafe
2020-05-23T19:27:53Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@grainloom Whence the question of matching on types? Common Lisp has a TYPECASE, too, but I don't know if that's relevant in the current context.@wyatwerp @aktivismoEstasMiaLuo @kragen
(DIR) Post #9vVPYnsuyeJVAsIglc by grainloom@cybre.space
2020-05-23T19:34:20Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@phoe @wyatwerp @aktivismoEstasMiaLuo @kragen i mean, it can match values of the builtin types.maybe it can match more, but i'm a noob and don't know much more.
(DIR) Post #9vVPYoDpit2mDk5OMq by wyatwerp@fsmi.social
2020-05-23T19:42:11.381760Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@grainloom @phoeErlang pattern-matching is very seductive (apart from its platform properties). That is what I feel I would miss in Common Lisp if I got used to the parantheses. Not thinking of anything near OCaml-like type handling, and not in a dynamic language with multiple dispatch.@aktivismoEstasMiaLuo @kragen
(DIR) Post #9vVPYoTmlZnv1DY8ES by clacke@libranet.de
2020-05-28T12:44:31Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@wyatwerp @kragen @aktivismoEstasMiaLuo @grainloom @phoe How different is CLOS pattern matching from Erlang pattern matching? I don't know either by heart, so I don't know.
(DIR) Post #9vWMaF8f1n0FHncQL2 by wyatwerp@fsmi.social
2020-05-28T15:34:14.356562Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@clackeI don't know much. The basic little feature I was talking about was Erlang's overloaded definitions of a function where the overloads can have the same type-level function signature if they match different constant values.@grainloom @aktivismoEstasMiaLuo @kragen @phoe
(DIR) Post #9vWMaGhRDyPq7wtiBU by phoe@functional.cafe
2020-05-28T16:06:01Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@wyatwerp Correct, Erlang is capable of having functions with the same name but different arity, e.g. foo/1, foo/2, foo/3, foo/5, foo/8, et cetera. Common Lisp cannot easily achieve the same.@aktivismoEstasMiaLuo @grainloom @clacke @kragen
(DIR) Post #9vWMaIERWkPWsbLaGe by wyatwerp@fsmi.social
2020-05-28T18:17:42.931688Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@phoeWhat I was saying was that Erlang goes further. Say, https://rosettacode.org/wiki/Fibonacci_n-step_number_sequences#Erlang where 2 definitions have the same type signature (arity and types), but with different value constraints.Anyway, this is far off-topic already, without even mentioning Erlang's concurrency handling.@aktivismoEstasMiaLuo @grainloom @clacke @kragen
(DIR) Post #9vWMaK0KwAJcNQlLYe by clacke@libranet.de
2020-05-28T23:44:53Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@wyatwerp @grainloom @kragen @aktivismoEstasMiaLuo @phoe Ah. Yeah, CLOS doesn't do variadic, and while it does specialize on values with the eql form, I don't think it does ranges.
(DIR) Post #9vWN0tVpXf7s23AFo8 by steko@octodon.social
2020-05-23T06:03:39Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@grainloom ah but you missed the fact that the standard for Electron developers is 16 GB 🤦♂️ https://journal.standardnotes.org/in-defense-of-electron-e7d5b5229b70
(DIR) Post #9vWN13D3UK386iSOvo by clacke@libranet.de
2020-05-28T23:50:47Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@steko @grainloom > Electron is gaining adoption by new and established startups alikeIf you're "established", are you a "startup"?I guess github considered themself a startup until MD bought the VCs out, but for how many years can you be starting up, really? As long as you're not making profit?
(DIR) Post #9vWX4HhD5FNlRjk5Vg by clacke@libranet.de
2020-05-29T01:42:58Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
MS*
(DIR) Post #9vYCVlc2uRA3LjhPvs by kragen@nerdculture.de
2020-05-29T21:02:26Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@clacke @grainloom @phoe @wyatwerp @aktivismoEstasMiaLuo I think a big part of what Electron contributes is being able to write DHTML for your GUI rather than the clumsier, less composable toolkits like GTK+ and wxWindows and Tk and fltk. I'd say "and Qt" but now Qt has adopted HTML. But HTML still leaves a LOT to be desired, and the DOM is a shitshow. It's just less bad than the alternatives. What would a *better* alternative look like?
(DIR) Post #9vYCfgDrnuF5Wq7I80 by kragen@nerdculture.de
2020-05-29T21:04:18Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@clacke @grainloom @phoe @wyatwerp @aktivismoEstasMiaLuo I mean having a good programming language like Erlang or CL or JS is nice, but by itself it doesn't solve the problems of user interface toolkit design. It might make them a little easier.
(DIR) Post #9vYCudN8gTSz22aHmS by kragen@nerdculture.de
2020-05-29T21:07:01Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@clacke @grainloom @phoe @wyatwerp @aktivismoEstasMiaLuo Erlang pattern matching is more or less the kind of pattern matching you have in Prolog or ML; CLOS's dispatch is not really similar. But I haven't tried Trivia or Optima, so I don't know what their capabilities are. You *can* build the same capabilities in CL with defmacro.
(DIR) Post #9vYD0zngD4nwKS22qm by kragen@nerdculture.de
2020-05-29T21:08:12Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@dch @grainloom Qt is fairly cross-platform and full-featured.
(DIR) Post #9vYILkeWDvNRCWSn9k by grainloom@cybre.space
2020-05-29T22:07:46Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@kragen maybe something built around a browser engine like Netsurf's.no JS, just C bindings, usable from any language.