Post 9useJHO5VWNlDPfLaC by rysiek@mastodon.social
(DIR) More posts by rysiek@mastodon.social
(DIR) Post #9usXQlny7CWRtwOcZk by rysiek@mastodon.social
2020-05-09T18:38:32Z
3 likes, 3 repeats
The 5g conspiracy craziness are but the latest example showing that a civilization's technological progress is hard-limited at any given time by the quality of education a median member of the society has received.
(DIR) Post #9usYOR5wFBmH2qFhdQ by wolf480pl@mstdn.io
2020-05-09T18:49:54Z
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@rysiek>medianI see what you did here!
(DIR) Post #9usYgfSLaT82nZQYRk by rysiek@mastodon.social
2020-05-09T18:53:10Z
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@wolf480pl :blobcatcoffee:
(DIR) Post #9usZKxaXajx0cMTN1k by wolf480pl@mstdn.io
2020-05-09T19:00:29Z
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@rysiekSo how do we educate 51% of the society?
(DIR) Post #9usZS6bEUEj8anCg6q by rysiek@mastodon.social
2020-05-09T19:01:47Z
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@wolf480pl well. We should educate them well.
(DIR) Post #9usa03oTLx4VnQaTUe by wolf480pl@mstdn.io
2020-05-09T19:07:53Z
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@rysiekSpeaking of wells, I think it should be a well of the deep type. Shallow wells dry up to easily, and have worse water quality.
(DIR) Post #9usdMRt8p1e0hK8dW4 by mplammers@fosstodon.org
2020-05-09T19:45:35Z
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@rysiek My concern is with legitimate debate ceding the spotlight to outrageous conspiracies. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5G#Political_oppositionWith regards to health specifically there is this public letter from hundreds of real doctors and other scientists:https://www.5gappeal.eu/signatories-to-scientists-5g-appeal/
(DIR) Post #9useJHO5VWNlDPfLaC by rysiek@mastodon.social
2020-05-09T19:56:12Z
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@mplammers oh, totally. that's part of what I'm talking about. instead of having the important conversations we're focusing on conspiracy hypotheses, and then the actual issues get ignored.for me personally, the biggest issues with 5g are related to privacy, telecom monopolies, free spectrum, and state surveillance (including by the state that controls the hardware manufacturing, as opposed to the state where it's installed).
(DIR) Post #9useRu57Wm67XVuFnM by kravietz@social.privacytools.io
2020-05-09T19:57:46Z
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@mplammers @rysiek If you have a "legitimate concern" about exposure to electromagnetic radiation you should be probably living in a cave 100 m underground. For the last 4.5 billions of years Earth is literally flooded in electromagnetic radiation of all frequencies, and this is precisely environment in which homo sapiens has evolved to live.
(DIR) Post #9usfZSYHrjXkQeiQue by kravietz@social.privacytools.io
2020-05-09T20:10:20Z
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@mplammers @rysiek Now, if the authors of that appeal are linking a (legitimate) scientific article about negative impact of microwave radar on human health in the context of 5G, this clearly demonstrates that they have no idea what they're talking about. A typical radar has power measured in thousands of Watts. A microwave ovens are 800-900 Watts. A typical 5G cell is 250 milliWatts. A typical WiFi is 20 milliWatts.
(DIR) Post #9usfl65tBppMFeywt6 by kravietz@social.privacytools.io
2020-05-09T20:12:25Z
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@rysiek @wolf480pl The problem is that education needs to work on different levels. There's baseline education provided by schools, and there's education on particular topics. The former is pretty good, the latter has been abandoned completely, at least in UK and Poland. There were no public campaigns in either country on any of the controversial topics for decades. This battle was lost by walkover.
(DIR) Post #9usgCkaejYrnfQYio4 by wolf480pl@mstdn.io
2020-05-09T20:17:26Z
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@kravietzHow does a median citizen tell the difference between an education campaign on a controversial topic and propaganda?@rysiek
(DIR) Post #9usgejMStdQDxqGO48 by kravietz@social.privacytools.io
2020-05-09T20:22:28Z
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@wolf480pl @rysiek They don't, authority is 100% subjective. If a government has already started prostituting their authority for short-term gains then they've lost their authority already and are screwed by their own will.In reality this is probably a bit more optimistic: people confronted with all kind of conspiracy bullshit do wait for public authorities statements on controversial topics. If there's none then... it's lost by walkover.
(DIR) Post #9usgvWvYNZ28K7gbmi by kravietz@social.privacytools.io
2020-05-09T20:25:31Z
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@wolf480pl @rysiek To speak of a concrete example: in Poland I found myself in a company of doctors who were complaining about the anti-vaxx movement. I asked them when there was the last public campaign on vaccinations - you know, like we saw in 50's with posters, TV programs, articles etc. The answer was silence.And there's a dozen of institutions that have funds just for that: ministry of health, public insurer, all kind of medical associations etc.
(DIR) Post #9ushJJYrj0IvotPohc by kravietz@social.privacytools.io
2020-05-09T20:29:49Z
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@wolf480pl @rysiek So what you end up with is a society where a kid can sing historic variants of washing powder ad songs because they see it 10x per day in all communication channels. But all their knowledge about vaccines is based on hearsay they mom discussed at home because she read it on Facebook... because nobody else wanted to tell her more about it.
(DIR) Post #9ushjznbJCrwLZ1wIq by kravietz@social.privacytools.io
2020-05-09T20:34:38Z
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@wolf480pl @rysiek Recently Nature published an angry rant against pseudo-science here https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-01266-z which is 100% correct in the diagnosis. But then they're calling for - wait for it - scientists to come up with "shareable content" to combat the pseudo-science!So on one side you've got professional scammers, PR experts who don't care about any credibility, and you want to put a bunch of scientists with "shareable content" against it...
(DIR) Post #9usv4RgAewpy0ldWcK by dsfgs@activism.openworlds.info
2020-05-09T23:03:56Z
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@kravietzIf you say that we need to live in a cave 100m underground to avoid it, why are #radiation levels set 70 times lower in some countries than others?How does this fit in with schools in Europe removing #WiFi to avoid excessive #EMF?Agree with the #privacy concerns.There's #gaslighting and charming #advertising aimed at building consent for #5G.#LocalCouncils are disempowered in #Australia yet where's the proof of #publicSafety?@mplammers @rysiek
(DIR) Post #9uswqmt9Ct1He3Jz72 by kravietz@social.privacytools.io
2020-05-09T23:23:57Z
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@dsfgs @mplammers @rysiek > why are radiation levels set lower in some countries than othersBecause lawmakers in different countries are pressured by different lobby groups. In fact, every stone on the planet contains some radioactive elements and their concentration is very different. If you have more granite in your area, you background radiation levels will be higher - see map for UK as an example.
(DIR) Post #9uswrntgwRt93z3oCu by kravietz@social.privacytools.io
2020-05-09T23:24:09Z
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@dsfgs @mplammers @rysiek On average every human on the planet receives around 3-6 mSv natural background radiation from the soil, Sun, food, water and everything else that surrounds us but people in some places in Iran or Brazil live in areas where background radiation exceeds 100 mSv per year... and they're just fine.
(DIR) Post #9usx47NWKy6sxRsu8G by kravietz@social.privacytools.io
2020-05-09T23:26:21Z
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@dsfgs @mplammers @rysiek > schools in Europe removing WiFi I have not heard about it but it's definitely possible if there's enough illiterate parents pressuring the school management based on FUD they found on Facebook. There's no scientific evidence that WiFi has any harmful effect on humans and there won't be simply because the power is too small and distance is too big to be able to pass any energy to human body.
(DIR) Post #9usxILFtXW4y3D6GhM by kravietz@social.privacytools.io
2020-05-09T23:28:56Z
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@dsfgs @mplammers @rysiek Mobile phones are different story because in order to talk to a base station located possibly a few kilometers away they need to apply larger power AND you keep them very close to your head. So if you talked for hours, this could have a physical effect of heating your brain, which in turn could slightly increase chances of damage. But you can easily break this chain of "could" by using headset and moving to a place with better coverage (=less power needed).
(DIR) Post #9usxgiVOkRI36qyU8u by kravietz@social.privacytools.io
2020-05-09T23:33:19Z
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@dsfgs @mplammers @rysiek So the closer you are to the base station, the less power your device needs to transmit data or voice. The old analog mobile phones were the worst because base stations were like 30 km from each other but the trend is now to build more and more stations so they're closer to people. 5G tries to build even more dense network than 4G which will result in even more power needed for communication.
(DIR) Post #9ut0yUaXWuIx1OXzCC by dsfgs@activism.openworlds.info
2020-05-10T00:10:06Z
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@kravietzNice to talk to you.Do you mean "even less energy" not "even more energy"? Because that last loint contradicted your pointWe're supporters of #meshNetworking (for #bitcoin/#crypto) combined with #fibreToTheHome and even #satelliteTransmission. So we are not afraid of radiation, but the standards are a concern to us without proper #publicDiscourse. Also who controls the #broadcasting systems? An accountable govt or private interests?#meshnet@mplammers @rysiek
(DIR) Post #9ut2pY1Rap84yQzgwK by kravietz@social.privacytools.io
2020-05-10T00:30:57Z
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@dsfgs @mplammers @rysiek > Do you mean "even less energy" Precisely, I reworded the paragraph and forgot to change. Thanks for pointing this out.
(DIR) Post #9ut2y7oOPcnKI0ymSO by dsfgs@activism.openworlds.info
2020-05-10T00:12:50Z
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@kravietz @mplammers @rysiek@kravietzIt's very interesting that #Brazil and #Iran are points of intense radiation. Are they at opposite ends of the #earth (ie. could there be a #magnetic aspect to this) or is it purely #geology? If so, maybe the govts in those places need to explore #faraday cage-like systems for #housing as a means of basic #shelter to assess whether there's a #publicHealth benefit?Maybe we need more #transparency around radiation generally. :)@mplammers @rysiek
(DIR) Post #9ut2y7xxq2S0lhSQNM by kravietz@social.privacytools.io
2020-05-10T00:32:30Z
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@dsfgs @mplammers @rysiek > or is it purely geology In these two specific cases it's purely geology but magnetic field of Earth stops a lot of cosmic radiation, so altitude and latitude also matter a lot. On the poles you got more radiation, high in the mountains you get more than on sea-level, in plane even more, but it still has zero biological effect at these doses. If you're interested, this is probably the most informative lecture:https://scitech.video/videos/watch/60a7b2c5-739b-40ac-8ab1-009d1aa653cd
(DIR) Post #9ut3K189vvuZwHfEAK by kravietz@social.privacytools.io
2020-05-10T00:36:28Z
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@dsfgs @mplammers @rysiek > need to explore faraday cage-like systemsThere's no need for that simply because it still has no biological effect on the residents. People have been living there with this radiation for thousands of years. There is *some* scientific evidence that background radiation actually has beneficial effect on human body (which would be logical because we evolved with it). In some countries people actually do "radon bathes", one of them Germany which is rather ironic.
(DIR) Post #9ut3yzoVjb0pjB0uoq by kravietz@social.privacytools.io
2020-05-10T00:43:52Z
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@dsfgs @mplammers @rysiek > Maybe we need more transparency around radiation generallyThere are few topics in the world that are better studied and documented than radiation, specifically due to the widespread fears around it. The problem is that few people wants to learn anything about it because it's easier to just be scared.This worldwide radiation monitor network is probably the best I've seenhttps://map.safecast.org/
(DIR) Post #9ut4J70ggihLq3IkQS by kravietz@social.privacytools.io
2020-05-10T00:47:30Z
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@dsfgs @mplammers @rysiek The latter - regulation and monopolies - are the biggest obstacle to mesh networks in the UK - and I've seen that in both my attempts to build one locally and also even in case of low-power small-bandwidth networks like LoRAWAN.People won't engage into mesh networks because they are scared to even route someone else's ping packed due to alleged restrictions of anti-terrorism laws. And broadband and LTE absolutely suck in the UK in terms of both bandwidth and price.
(DIR) Post #9ut4cj7pCWvvYJzcNE by dsfgs@activism.openworlds.info
2020-05-10T00:51:01Z
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@kravietzWe'll check out these resources.Good to converse with you today.@mplammers @rysiek
(DIR) Post #9utbM58DQTHvMtqXB2 by wolf480pl@mstdn.io
2020-05-10T06:57:47Z
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@kravietzWait, but every child learns in primary school biology class what vaccines are and how they work...@rysiek
(DIR) Post #9utpN94heIDhFKbYOm by Halbeard@linuxrocks.online
2020-05-10T09:34:49Z
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@wolf480pl according to some studies, 10% of "true believers" within a given population are enough for ideas to spread successfully. So either tech literacy must be far below that figure or the conspiracy guys are above it.@rysiek
(DIR) Post #9uu0YUBQbiirOVMPTM by rysiek@mastodon.social
2020-05-10T11:40:08Z
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@wolf480pl @kravietz@social.privacytools.io what one is exposed to through a curriculum, and what one actually learns, are two different things.
(DIR) Post #9uuJQ14JtCw8skUcc4 by ilja@ilja.space
2020-05-10T15:11:31.026309Z
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@wolf480pl @rysiek Well in that case
(DIR) Post #9uuKcAuNER22pPCbTN by rysiek@mastodon.social
2020-05-10T11:58:00Z
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@Halbeard @wolf480pl I don't think it's tech literacy, to be fair. I think it's basic logic missing from school curriculum.I only got a good course in basic logic (along with a good dive into logical fallacies and the like) because a). I went to a math-profiled class in high-school; b). went on to study philosophy.logic is what's missing the most from schools, I feel.
(DIR) Post #9uuKfM0uOmJU8im6Vc by wolf480pl@mstdn.io
2020-05-10T15:24:23Z
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@ilja @rysiek how much for the case?
(DIR) Post #9uuKqUHlz3myypyJai by ilja@ilja.space
2020-05-10T15:27:33.204786Z
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@rysiek @Halbeard @wolf480pl I had the opportunity to do a semester of maths at uni a couple of years back and I wholeheartedly agree with this. People assume they know how to reason, but they often don't. There I learned the basics of formal logic and suddenly you realise just how labour-intensive reasoning actually is and how much your convictions on certain (and often important) topics are based on flawed and even absent arguments. I basically felt I had to review my whole worldview after that. The worst thing about this is that it's not even that hard. It's something you have to learn, but schools apparently don't properly teach it.
(DIR) Post #9uuKzwbC5LVzOlZ6Dg by ilja@ilja.space
2020-05-10T15:29:16.629238Z
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@wolf480pl @rysiek depends on the well 🤷
(DIR) Post #9uuLFEWLjavPKGacHg by Halbeard@linuxrocks.online
2020-05-10T14:59:44Z
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@rysiektrue to that. Though even the best schooling will only shift or stretch the intelligence distribution. I fear it will always be some kind of thermal like distribution, where the people on the lower end misunderstand the state of the art of reasoning.Maybe the current trend of science media will at least spark enough interest in younger people to raise a good chunk of the base intelligence above idiocy levels @wolf480pl
(DIR) Post #9uuLjLgrdtfsFWrsNU by rysiek@mastodon.social
2020-05-10T15:36:28Z
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@ilja @wolf480pl well, in the picture the well depends on the case. so.
(DIR) Post #9uuMCLZb9oCcHfISg4 by rysiek@mastodon.social
2020-05-10T15:35:45Z
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@ilja @wolf480pl @Halbeard exactly. And the sooner one starts learning this, the less painful it is.In a way, learning about logical fallacies is the vaccine for conspiracy theories and b0rked worldviews. And that shit is like Measles.If you get it early, you will mostly avoid the worst consequences. Going through this once you're an adult is painful and potentially dangerous. And in a non-inoculated community, it spreads like wildfire.
(DIR) Post #9uuPonbBhs7M4R4EBE by Halbeard@linuxrocks.online
2020-05-10T15:55:01Z
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@rysiekI think the logical aspect is only part of the equation. It ultimately comes down to which source of information is most trustworthy for an individual. Conspiracy theories start to form when there is skepticism about established institutions, most notably in politics. But the same goes for other areas where you need to trust expert opinion, if its not feasible to learn everything yourself. Logical consistency can only go so far, with flat earthers being a prime example @ilja @wolf480pl
(DIR) Post #9uuPooDpOD1g0H95PM by Halbeard@linuxrocks.online
2020-05-10T16:08:29Z
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@rysiekand the core of the problem is that governments and other institutions are in fact involved in shady actions. Therefore, once someone begins to be doubtful, it's hard to draw the line where accusations are truthful and which of them are crackpot fantasies. Especially since the sources are all over the place and none of them has (or even can have) official approval. While there are obvious candidates like flatearth, other theroies are on the brink of "maybe possible" @ilja @wolf480pl
(DIR) Post #9uuPooZS5oK75LGM76 by wolf480pl@mstdn.io
2020-05-10T16:23:13Z
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@Halbeard @rysiek @ilja Yeah...For example, in case of 5G, I don't have enough knowledge to be able to tell what its impact on health is gonna be.But what I know for sure, is that the telcos have a lot of money to gain from it, they're trying to drive hype, and they're unlikely to publicly acknowledge any disadvantages of 5G if they know about some.
(DIR) Post #9uuR1RUhsoYbeffMo4 by Halbeard@linuxrocks.online
2020-05-10T16:34:10Z
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@wolf480plthat basically applies to all monteray related issues, cancer research being another prime example.Regarding 5G: Even I, as a physicist, am not convinced that more electromagnetic pollution in our environment doesn't have any negative consequences whatsoever. Though, if there are any meaningful consequences, they're at best circumstantial or a very subtle effect. Conspiracy theories stretch such appropriate doubts towards absurdity, impacting true criticism badly @rysiek @ilja
(DIR) Post #9uuTOrj3rwnXNB1GTo by rysiek@mastodon.social
2020-05-10T17:03:21Z
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@wolf480pl @Halbeard @ilja but you're also able to tell that 5g is not causing COVID19.So how about we handle this low-hanging fruit and make sure everyone is on that level, and then try to improve?
(DIR) Post #9uuc72FysMIoPPzRMu by wolf480pl@mstdn.io
2020-05-10T18:40:58Z
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@rysiekNow that I think of it, you can't be sure it doesn't:- decrease the effectivness of immune system- increase likelihood of viruses mutatingThat being said, there is no reason to believe it does... though my brain's tendency to look for patterns where there aren't any reminds me that Huawei is a Chinese company...Ok, no, it's all very unlikely, obviously.@Halbeard @ilja
(DIR) Post #9uucBgaqqa7afXyAsq by wolf480pl@mstdn.io
2020-05-10T18:41:50Z
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@rysiek @Halbeard @iljaWhich means it's overfitting that's causing "conspiracy theories" to appear
(DIR) Post #9uuce47ywMn1lfzyEa by mplammers@fosstodon.org
2020-05-10T18:46:57Z
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@rysiek Today I dove a bit deeper into the sources quoted in this "5gappeal" I referred yesterday. Most of them come from BioInitiative. Even some of the research I checked said on the first page it was carried out for BI. Today I found out Dutch boffins were already on to BI in 2008 (Dutch link):https://www.gezondheidsraad.nl/documenten/adviezen/2008/09/02/bioinitiative-rapport
(DIR) Post #9uudQjh3heUqa8c5Gy by Halbeard@linuxrocks.online
2020-05-10T18:55:44Z
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@wolf480pl AFAIK the radiation needs to be ionizing for mutations to occur, there it must be at least UV-light. There are some hypotheses that novel viruses mostly form in the upper atmosphere, which is also why a lot of them are caught by flying animals first. The corresponding studies haven't yet been confirmed though.But the corona amplification by telecommunication signal theory is very unlikely. Can't say anything about the immune system effectiveness.@rysiek @ilja
(DIR) Post #9uudi3stt27Y7sPhq4 by wolf480pl@mstdn.io
2020-05-10T18:57:59Z
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@Halbeard @rysiek @ilja It was meant to be an example of how human brain tends to overfit to the data, and see patterns where there aren't any.
(DIR) Post #9uueeraBGhXJ3dhEqu by rysiek@mastodon.social
2020-05-10T19:09:32Z
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@mplammers I don't understand. Can you rephrase?
(DIR) Post #9uugKNyBrGClKeI2Jk by mplammers@fosstodon.org
2020-05-10T19:28:16Z
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@rysiek If I understand the Dutch health council correctly, BioInitiative is not to be considered unbiased and that there were several problems with their work, and that it was not peer-reviewed. In cases where peer-review was done, results were not reproduced, and so on.More:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bioinitiative_Report
(DIR) Post #9uv3chx0bd79SaRWr2 by dsfgs@activism.openworlds.info
2020-05-10T23:49:13Z
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@kravietzIf you know anyone who still thinks the threat of terrorism was real. Direct them to a series called The Century of the Self (#BBC (before they turned to mush), 2002).It details how groups are manipulated by triggering subconscious #desires and #fears. How its refined and automated over the past century to generate consent for #imperialWars. ;)The first 15 minutes are a must:https://invidio.us/watch?v=DnPmg0R1M04There's much more where that came from.@mplammers @rysiek