Post 9sPnSbFPoEHRlcRddA by trobador@mastodon.social
(DIR) More posts by trobador@mastodon.social
(DIR) Post #9sPirxzzrFPNnWVe52 by sir@cmpwn.com
2020-02-26T01:15:36Z
4 likes, 3 repeats
It occurs to me that browsers may actually _embrace_ the reckless scope of the web because it makes it too difficult for anyone to put forward any reasonable competition.
(DIR) Post #9sPixviPGHBYS77p20 by sir@cmpwn.com
2020-02-26T01:15:53Z
4 likes, 0 repeats
This is why Mozilla thinks they can get away with selling out to CloudFlare
(DIR) Post #9sPjG9YuWB12btNC76 by sir@cmpwn.com
2020-02-26T01:19:57Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@ben my definition is probably starkly different from the mainstream in this respect
(DIR) Post #9sPjMXYEExlakS6F1s by sir@cmpwn.com
2020-02-26T01:20:48Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@ben I think a reasonable subset of CSS would be good here
(DIR) Post #9sPjSvVQ5eoemPpad6 by sir@cmpwn.com
2020-02-26T01:21:18Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@ben I mean, strictly speaking, anything which browses the web is a web browser. Meeting the definition and being useful are different goals
(DIR) Post #9sPjZsJGN6BUtWST1E by sir@cmpwn.com
2020-02-26T01:22:55Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@ben lol
(DIR) Post #9sPjjZzvJGPczs2WS8 by progo@noagendasocial.com
2020-02-26T01:24:21Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@sir @ben for what it's worth, don't forget the success of LibreOffice after the entire dev team abandoned OpenOffice and quit Oracle in order to start their own company and their own fork.Firefox is still open source. There are some good tracking forks like Waterfox (… whose one real project member just got acquired, with Waterfox, by an ad company).
(DIR) Post #9sPjsZb4Aa5CMMhYB6 by sir@cmpwn.com
2020-02-26T01:25:19Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@progo @ben you pointed out yourself why Waterfox is a joke.
(DIR) Post #9sPk1F41sbKJHhNlNQ by progo@noagendasocial.com
2020-02-26T01:24:28Z
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@sir @ben The question is what are the minimum set of Firefox parts that can be maintained by a volunteer team and still more or less work with the MSM shithole that is the popular and difficult part of the web?
(DIR) Post #9sPk1FKKtyN26H0mnI by sir@cmpwn.com
2020-02-26T01:25:48Z
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@progo @ben I don't think a Firefox fork is the right starting point for a better web browser. I think something needs to be made from scratch with an emphasis on conservative maintainability
(DIR) Post #9sPkBlMKf5NGLGxaQS by progo@noagendasocial.com
2020-02-26T01:29:59Z
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@sir @ben That's a good idea, and it could work, but unfortunately all it takes is one INTENTIONAL bug introduced by Outlook.com, and it snowballs from there.Microsoft accused Google of hobbling Edge, for about a year, and then they threw in the towel and imported Chromium. :^(If conditions are right, maybe there will be just enough critical mass of users to call out publishers' bullshit when they do it, and slow it down.
(DIR) Post #9sPkJCnv1KMJUKPcvY by sir@cmpwn.com
2020-02-26T01:30:21Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@progo @ben such a project would have to focus on not giving a shit for a good long while
(DIR) Post #9sPnMDCCJwPVQxtTdY by af@social.librem.one
2020-02-26T02:06:47Z
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@sir fork it!
(DIR) Post #9sPnSbFPoEHRlcRddA by trobador@mastodon.social
2020-02-26T02:06:30Z
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@sir @ben controversial opinion: stylesheets are useless. Let users be able to choose how they want to display hypertext, like in the old days when you could choose default background colour and typeface.
(DIR) Post #9sPnheY7occQLpNFpI by sir@cmpwn.com
2020-02-26T02:07:04Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@trobador @ben to me stylesheets are useful for organizing information spatially in a way which makes sense on a variety of user agents
(DIR) Post #9sPouTghbstONo46ka by isagalaev@mastodon.social
2020-02-26T02:20:47Z
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@trobador @sir @ben users have already spoken. Given the runaway success of sites designed by designers (using CSS or whatever), it should be obvious that users much prefer a coherent experience designed by someone else to the ability to fine tune the look of sites in their browsers. The idea that the latter is something desirable is very dear to techie's minds, but there's a reason it never took off.
(DIR) Post #9sPouVGXk79jHFqFFo by sir@cmpwn.com
2020-02-26T02:23:26Z
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@isagalaev @trobador @ben hard disagree. Users can barely tell the difference. What they can tell is that modern web applications are slow and annoying and full of ads, and their battery life gets worse and worse before they're forced into buying a new phone. Most users don't have the enthusiast grade hardware that techies are used to, either, which exacerbates the problem significantly. Users DO notice and they DON'T like it, but they are less capable of expressing why than you or I.
(DIR) Post #9sPpIl5CaRjbHc6QNs by isagalaev@mastodon.social
2020-02-26T02:27:47Z
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@sir @trobador @ben this is not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about specifically about users not wanting to choose colors of the links and fonts on the Web. Of course they don't like slow pages. But they want fast and usable pages and apps designed *for* them by someone else, they don't want to do it themselves.The idealist's idea about users wanting freedom over nice experience proves wrong every time.
(DIR) Post #9sPpOY5zmmgGk2Ecxk by sir@cmpwn.com
2020-02-26T02:28:41Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@isagalaev @trobador @ben do you have any evidence?
(DIR) Post #9sPpUqDxIWmMhexUW0 by isagalaev@mastodon.social
2020-02-26T02:29:53Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@sir @trobador @ben put another way, the fact that people still use the modern crappy Web without even installing ad blockers en masse should tell you all you need to know about how much time and effort people are prepared to invest in making what is rightfully someone else's job (ours).
(DIR) Post #9sPpc68AYVX641iDyK by isagalaev@mastodon.social
2020-02-26T02:30:45Z
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@sir @trobador @ben Drew, I'm not arguing a legal case against you :-) I'm just telling you what I learned over time. Feel free to disregard :-)
(DIR) Post #9sPphiVbIL3EXTLqoC by sir@cmpwn.com
2020-02-26T02:30:54Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@isagalaev @trobador @ben ad blocker usage is pushing 40% dude
(DIR) Post #9sPppEpZWJuooMHNdQ by isagalaev@mastodon.social
2020-02-26T02:33:34Z
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@sir @trobador @ben that's news to me, alright. Still not even a majority though :-) But anyway, pick another example of people not going into some other obscure setting to make their life easier.Also, we started with not needing CSS. I believe it's still possible in Firefox to go into about:config and remove site's styles and use your own. How many people do that?
(DIR) Post #9sPpvV5xxjZWzYvx3Y by sir@cmpwn.com
2020-02-26T02:34:15Z
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@isagalaev @trobador @ben riddle me this: would it be an objectively better user experience if firefox and chrome, the _user_ agents, were to ship ublock origin by default?
(DIR) Post #9sPq0ezeaYf38eRQe0 by sir@cmpwn.com
2020-02-26T02:34:58Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@isagalaev @trobador @ben fun fact: firefox owes its first big spike in users thanks to the introduction of popup blocking
(DIR) Post #9sPqPaM4yFbxzboebA by isagalaev@mastodon.social
2020-02-26T02:39:19Z
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@sir @trobador @ben yes, this is my point exactly.Let me do this again. *Firefox* started doing a good thing *by default*. It didn't just made it configurable. And that's why people started using it (also, it was so much lighter than the Mozilla suite). My original point is that people want someone else (programmers, designers) to take care of those things, as opposed to having to tune it themselves.
(DIR) Post #9sPqWQH6qZZMkykfia by sir@cmpwn.com
2020-02-26T02:40:47Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@isagalaev @trobador @ben that's what's being suggested in this thread. Taking the power away from websites and putting it in the browser's hands. And I don't think that you have any evidence to support the idea that if users could pick the theme their browser applies to the web, they wouldn't. My normie sister has a custom Android theme.
(DIR) Post #9sPqcXcqQl9PI8psiO by isagalaev@mastodon.social
2020-02-26T02:41:04Z
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@sir @trobador @ben and they chose popup blocking because popups are annoying, not because they were ideologically against advertising.
(DIR) Post #9sPqiGnltTpGqpg7X6 by sir@cmpwn.com
2020-02-26T02:41:27Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@isagalaev @trobador @ben anyone who claims to not be ideologically against advertising is a fucking moron
(DIR) Post #9sPqoJUEpA1GuqQJeK by sir@cmpwn.com
2020-02-26T02:41:37Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@isagalaev @trobador @ben or makes money from their ignorance
(DIR) Post #9sPqvTmgw6b6seTK3U by tsturm@mastodon.cloud
2020-02-26T02:43:00Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@isagalaev @sir @trobador @ben Heavy agree. Most users are not able to make changes like these themselves and frankly shouldn’t have to worry about it.
(DIR) Post #9sPqvUKMutXIZ6EDY0 by sir@cmpwn.com
2020-02-26T02:43:46Z
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@tsturm @isagalaev @trobador @ben the lack of faith you guys have in users frankly disgusts me. Users are not idiots. The average user is a lot smarter, more creative, and more curious than you expect. A good application design puts the tools in their hands.
(DIR) Post #9sPr0jPEHbX8mI0BkG by sir@cmpwn.com
2020-02-26T02:44:45Z
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@isagalaev @trobador @ben I'll also point out that switching from IE6 to Firefox required _effort_, it was not the default and people _still did it_
(DIR) Post #9sPrObrPzJTKKIZb9s by isagalaev@mastodon.social
2020-02-26T02:51:09Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@sir @tsturm @trobador @ben okay, let me be frank. What disgusts *me* is when you equate not wanting to mess with settings with being idiots. At no point I implied users were incapable of doing it. But they are not computer professionals. They are teachers, accountants, vet doctors and truck drivers. They don't want to mess with software not because they can't, but because they're rightfully consider it to be our job to provide software that just works. You're experienced enough to know it.
(DIR) Post #9sPrUjDrWrcWtezNGC by sir@cmpwn.com
2020-02-26T02:51:30Z
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@isagalaev @tsturm @trobador @ben ugh. I'm done talking to you.
(DIR) Post #9sPriiAIG2vDfezGZE by isagalaev@mastodon.social
2020-02-26T02:54:50Z
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@sir @trobador @ben I wouldn't know. I hate ads with all my heart, but I wasn't talking about myself. Just looking around, it seems many (most) people are way more tolerant to this, unfortunately.It feels like you keep reading something else in what I'm writing though. Sorry about that…
(DIR) Post #9sPrjYmMdkGwqnCP7w by dredmorbius@mastodon.cloud
2020-02-26T02:13:20Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@ben There's a (partial) technical answer in Pavel Panchekha's textbook (in process) on the topic:https://browser.engineeringThough along with @sir my own answer probably deviates strongly from the mainstream.I don't care much about pixel-perfect layout, and would be willing to simply ignore most markup (or outright replace it), excepting / in favour of semantic structure. Likewise scripting.
(DIR) Post #9sPrpyVRtrE6NaLW1A by tsturm@mastodon.cloud
2020-02-26T02:55:37Z
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@sir @isagalaev @trobador @ben Many years of testing web UI in a usability lab with panels of randomly selected users have taught me many hard lessons about what is acceptable complexity in UI design. I’ve seen designers cry at the sight of regular people not giving a damn about the carefully weighted menu choices we gave them. Most people are strictly task oriented. They open whatever icon promises web access with the least amount of obvious decision points. They won’t configure a browser.
(DIR) Post #9sPrxHTJmhgdE9pi5Y by sir@cmpwn.com
2020-02-26T02:57:31Z
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@tsturm @isagalaev @trobador @ben I find this methodology highly questionable. You sit them down and give them a task, and they solve the task. Obviously they're looking to get The Thing done ASAP. It has little to no bearing on what someone's daily habits are, especially for tools they use often.
(DIR) Post #9sR7Ha28U5bh1IgWps by trobador@mastodon.social
2020-02-26T17:23:55Z
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@sir @ben yeah I know, there are cases when we use CSS to build specialized layouts that must obey some order, but I think then we are using stylesheets for something that semantic HTML was supposed to do: if the order of the information is meaningful then the order is itself information (which is for instance why a tag like <ol> exists). Some people may find this laughable, but I still believe languages like XHTML were heading in the right direction.
(DIR) Post #9sR8lpZXNNSFr1ISOW by dannycolin@fosstodon.org
2020-02-26T17:40:09Z
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@sir pff... They aren't selling anything since Cloudflare can't legally sell the data. And for the majority of people in the US, DoH is safer than their current ISP DNS.
(DIR) Post #9sgAHix4mwL2YHGL1U by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2020-03-04T23:39:02Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@af or help out with one of the many existing #Firefox forks, like #ABrowser, or #IceCat, which undo all the user-compromising stuff #Mozilla adds to FF these days, and add some extra user protection.@sir