Post 9rVSLUxitAlN9FpSPA by PumpkinPie@spinster.xyz
(DIR) More posts by PumpkinPie@spinster.xyz
(DIR) Post #9rU9sO4gKCDn3PX1XM by alex@gleasonator.com
2020-01-29T06:45:45Z
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I don't celebrate Kobe Bryant's death. I think that's wrong. I read the rape story and it's awful. His actions are part of a larger societal problem though, because men are socialized to view women as subordinate sex objects. By celebrating his death we're really just scapegoating him. I don't think scapegoating helps things - we're basically saying "fuck Kobe Bryant in particular on behalf of all rapists." He is just one person, and I'm sure he was even likeable at times.He was a product of society, and as humans we're collectivily responsible for building the type of society we want to live in.I'm not overflowing with sympathy for the guy, I just think celebrating someone's death is territory that shouldn't be entered. It was the same when Magdalen Berns died.
(DIR) Post #9rUAIPvy2AGGLlrr28 by a7@pleroma.mouse.services
2020-01-29T06:50:42.873597Z
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@alex so you are saying i gotta feel sorry for this rapist death and take responsibility for his rapes - man you must be one delusional lakers fan
(DIR) Post #9rUybGDSU9jxQEmye0 by Starlit_Fire@spinster.xyz
2020-01-29T16:14:13Z
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@alex It is perfectly fine and even good to celebrate the death of a rapist.
(DIR) Post #9rUyw9WiYFc0kyl8xE by beep@cliterati.club
2020-01-29T16:18:00Z
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@Starlit_Fire @alex@gleasonator.com the fact that he compared this situation with MAGDALEN BERNS' DEATH says so much abt him like how is that a comparison u makerapistwoman's rights advocator/radical feminist/lesbian/outspoken for sex based oppressionlike what the fuck
(DIR) Post #9rV11vgV84ELTJDZGi by Melkora@spinster.xyz
2020-01-29T16:41:27Z
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@beep @Starlit_Fire Oh, great! So I'm on the platform created by a homophobic misogynistic right-winger. Another reason to delete my account. Just great!
(DIR) Post #9rV1GuNUGm15lMT06q by beep@cliterati.club
2020-01-29T16:44:09Z
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@Melkora come over!!!!!!! :3
(DIR) Post #9rV1Sd0afqfjMsLTqy by Starlit_Fire@spinster.xyz
2020-01-29T16:46:16Z
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@beep I know! Magdalen Berns was a good person who fought for women, she did not sexually violate people. People who celebrated Magdalen's death were not justified in doing that because Magdalen was not a bad person.
(DIR) Post #9rV1lsCuOENw0YHfBQ by beep@cliterati.club
2020-01-29T16:49:45Z
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@Starlit_Fire and they were celebrating her death BECAUSE she was an outspoken woman about woman's issues and sex based oppression. alex is spiraling out of control more and more it seems lmao, hard to keep all his right wingery inside it seems
(DIR) Post #9rV1rnkxqmgvwS2Xia by Melkora@spinster.xyz
2020-01-29T16:50:49Z
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@beep Oh! I'll give them just one last chance.
(DIR) Post #9rV1yqhXIgbh6MnTXs by Starlit_Fire@spinster.xyz
2020-01-29T16:52:06Z
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@beep Yep. He just continues to his very bad takes.
(DIR) Post #9rV23qaV9LB0CJtEcS by Melkora@spinster.xyz
2020-01-29T16:53:00Z
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@beep @Starlit_Fire He've literally compared a death of an outspoken feminist to a death of a rapits? Just... Wow!
(DIR) Post #9rV28GCtq76SoSxFs8 by beep@cliterati.club
2020-01-29T16:53:48Z
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@Melkora @Starlit_Fire I legit wonder where his brain is sometimes
(DIR) Post #9rV39GJL2T89NY0YCG by Yavanna@spinster.xyz
2020-01-29T17:05:10Z
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@Starlit_Fire @alex And Magdalen is NOT COMPARABLE to a fucking rapist scum! I kind of get what Alex is saying here, and kind of don't get it... Like yeah, society is the one to blame but we cannot blame society for everything, individuals have their freedom to do stuff and whatever."He was likeable at times". Yeah, so was Hitler. What's your point?
(DIR) Post #9rV3aLGYivXWZ8cXT6 by Melkora@spinster.xyz
2020-01-29T17:08:47Z
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@Yavanna @Starlit_Fire @alex A dude, defending a rapist! What precisely is new here?
(DIR) Post #9rV40crPvjwifBOTa4 by beep@cliterati.club
2020-01-29T17:14:50Z
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@Melkora @Yavanna @Starlit_Fire @alex@gleasonator.com legit just look through his gleasonator account and tell me it doesn't reek of male
(DIR) Post #9rV4yiMkafL773hb4y by alex@gleasonator.com
2020-01-29T17:25:36Z
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@Yavanna I totally agree. My point was that if people accept celebrating someone's death as part of civil dialogue, then we should expect our political opponents to do the same.
(DIR) Post #9rV5BW7dQL1su6jjkm by beep@cliterati.club
2020-01-29T17:28:00Z
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@Melkora @Yavanna @Starlit_Fire alex: mutes and blocks women who criticize himalso alex: has a Civil Conversation with a literal nazi http://archive.ph/leMHP
(DIR) Post #9rV69l74ogr2lyCWvo by Yavanna@spinster.xyz
2020-01-29T17:38:48Z
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@alex Yeah, I get what you're saying but there's nyances. When a rapist dies it's different when a opinionated woman dies. I don't think the people who celebrate the rapist's death are even trying to be civil anyway. 🤷♀️
(DIR) Post #9rV6MEVxKT3hQymoWu by Melkora@spinster.xyz
2020-01-29T17:40:34Z
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@beep @Yavanna @Starlit_Fire This is disgusting! This is so much disgusting, I wasn't able to finish it. Alex is trash.
(DIR) Post #9rV7RSMrLmKpnkaP0y by alex@gleasonator.com
2020-01-29T17:53:14Z
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@Yavanna For sure! Nuances can be hard to capture over social media. It's probably the biggest disadvantage of communicating through an ego-centric interface.
(DIR) Post #9rVAHzr6Hwqud1ubCK by Ilongedformuskrats@spinster.xyz
2020-01-29T18:25:10Z
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"He was a product of society, and as humans we're collectively responsible for building the type of society we want to live in." This sounds like you're saying women are (co) responsible for the fact that there are tons of rapists, murderers, torturers, and mutilators of women in the world. Well, no. @alex @Yavanna
(DIR) Post #9rVCo7k2hetSGJ3e7M by Yavanna@spinster.xyz
2020-01-29T18:35:46Z
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@Ilongedformuskrats @alex Yeah that came into my mind as well.
(DIR) Post #9rVCo827cRM5ANW5IW by Lemondrizzle@spinster.xyz
2020-01-29T18:53:23Z
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@Yavanna @Ilongedformuskrats @alex There's a difference between society and culture. Macho, sexist, patriarchal cultural norms encourage male entitlement and rape.Only the people who perpetuate these cultural norms should be blamed for the harm they do,.I also hate it when people are like 'we need to do better.' Leave me out of this, I've not raped anyone.
(DIR) Post #9rVDiwnk3G9opysqUy by alex@gleasonator.com
2020-01-29T19:03:34Z
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@Ilongedformuskrats I considered that too, and there's some nuance about it I didn't fit into my OP. I was recently told a story about the African philosophy Ubuntu ("I am because we are").The short version goes: one group was oppressing another. In response, the oppressed group sought to destroy their oppressors. An African court ruled that both parties shared some responsibility. For the oppressed group, it was their unwillingness to envision a world where the problem was solved.My takeaway from this story was that it was unfair. However, how DO we solve the problem unless the oppressed are willing to take some responsibility to solve it? One way of thinking says that the oppressed should continue to fight to the death in the name of justice (this is a very popular idea among leftists right now). The other way is that the oppressed take on the burden of creating peace, fully knowing it's unfair. The latter is the Ruth Bader Ginsburg approach.Anyway, it's not really my place to say what women should or shouldn't do in the women's movement. In general I think both approaches have pros and cons for when you use them, but social media culture seems to be fueling justified outrage, leading mainly to the "fight to the death" approach.@Yavanna
(DIR) Post #9rVEe8yfS9rt6jGdpw by Lemondrizzle@spinster.xyz
2020-01-29T19:14:00Z
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@alex @Ilongedformuskrats @Yavanna But Alex women ARE working to fight the male entitlement that leads to rape. There's a whole feminist movement dedicated to that.We do that in addition to not celebrating rapists 🙅♀️
(DIR) Post #9rVEiRHJLypl1a2HpI by Ilongedformuskrats@spinster.xyz
2020-01-29T19:14:45Z
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There's no we that's gonna solve any problems. 1) There's no WE - rape is not a men's "problem". Your group likes rape and does everything in its power to keep it in the world. You wanna change that? Be my guest and go tell men not to rape. 2) There's no "solving" and there's no problem. This is not a technical bug, you're not gonna fix it. There's men oppressing women. Yes, it's only us women who can free ourselves from male oppression, but it's not our responsibility, or duty. It's the question of being free or not being free. @alex @Yavanna
(DIR) Post #9rVEnp6YC8gQMvZPQO by Lemondrizzle@spinster.xyz
2020-01-29T19:15:46Z
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@Ilongedformuskrats @alex @Yavanna We do it because we have to.
(DIR) Post #9rVEtysEmoDCP9oN9M by alex@gleasonator.com
2020-01-29T19:16:49Z
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@Ilongedformuskrats Do you support separatism?@Lemondrizzle
(DIR) Post #9rVEw1OWNwu2nlsvxo by Ilongedformuskrats@spinster.xyz
2020-01-29T19:17:14Z
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Yes, and I practice separatism. @alex @Lemondrizzle
(DIR) Post #9rVFqAIsRtjmeJ14wy by alex@gleasonator.com
2020-01-29T19:27:20Z
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@Ilongedformuskrats I think a group either has to work out their issues, kill each other, or separate. Separatism is probably the most fair and nonviolent approach, but also the hardest to achieve. Anyway separatism is consistent with the idea we don't have to work out the issues between men and women. I think that's fair and I accept it. I'm speaking under the assumption that we can still work it out, but you know I'm a man, so... lol.@Lemondrizzle
(DIR) Post #9rVGYifk1n9tz2xL3A by Lemondrizzle@spinster.xyz
2020-01-29T19:35:27Z
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@alex @Ilongedformuskrats You know what though, it would be nice if, just as a gesture of good will, men would:1. Not sack women for pointing out a man is a rapist2. Not circle the wagons around rapists3. Not deny there is a problem4. Not shirk responsibility for sorting out the fucking problem5. Not rape
(DIR) Post #9rVISaq2RPgHrFykhk by AprilTui@spinster.xyz
2020-01-29T19:56:44Z
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I can’t think of any oppressive force in history or any inequality, that was destroyed or overcome without violence. I come from pacifists, Te Whiti & Tohu are my ancestors, I loved their message, but we were destroyed as a tribe almost, because of it, and our women left alone to get mass-raped. So you know... ideological approaches aren’t something that work as the oppressors are not reasonable people 😬@alex @Ilongedformuskrats @Yavanna
(DIR) Post #9rVJF0e7n7t3ndUcuu by alex@gleasonator.com
2020-01-29T20:05:24Z
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@AprilTui This book Why Civil Resistance Works by Erica Chenoweth argues that only 5% of the population needs to be engaged in nonviolent direct action in order to cause a regime change.Gandi and MLK are often used as examples.@Ilongedformuskrats @Yavanna
(DIR) Post #9rVJzDt4tRBIBfWWUC by AprilTui@spinster.xyz
2020-01-29T20:13:39Z
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Before Ghandi and MLK were Te Whiti and Tohu, who I just mentioned? You’ve probably not heard of them but they were Pacifists from my culture, they just don’t get much credit even in NZ. The thing is, the American civil rights movement, the South African apartheid regime too, included violence. Nothing has been achieved without it, much as we might like the idea, the reality is different. Individuals may have called for it, but both you mention were only a part of the fight, they didn’t do anything on their own . Nelson Mandela was part of the violent arm of the ANC. When you’re talking about stopping rape, an act of violence, I’m not sure you can fairly say that we should engage in non-violent ways to stop it. It’s not the same as arguing over law changes. @alex @Ilongedformuskrats @Yavanna
(DIR) Post #9rVKNaDVWYjqOIh9yC by alex@gleasonator.com
2020-01-29T20:18:14Z
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@AprilTui Thanks for the info, you're right I've never heard from them. Interested in learning more and revisiting this.@Ilongedformuskrats @Yavanna
(DIR) Post #9rVKTPiVTZ2DYyyVuK by AprilTui@spinster.xyz
2020-01-29T20:19:18Z
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They were leaders of Parihaka marae, it’s quite famous sort of, and my Nana started her life there 😊 @alex @Ilongedformuskrats @Yavanna
(DIR) Post #9rVQ1es28nICB6ZzPM by rose@spinster.xyz
2020-01-29T21:21:31Z
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Yes. Women are not the problem. @Lemondrizzle @Yavanna @Ilongedformuskrats @alex
(DIR) Post #9rVQn3C9WL5tEIaXfE by grace_hawthorn@spinster.xyz
2020-01-29T20:30:39Z
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@AprilTui @alex @Ilongedformuskrats @Yavanna i think there are 2 parts to this - what is it that we want oppressed groups to do, exactly, to 'create peace'? Feminists have spent decades trying to do this ethically and respectfully and have been met with violence. The whole point of oppression is that it is inherently violent (5 faces of oppression; marginalisation, exploitation, cultural appropriation, violence, invisibility). It is a form of epistemic exploitation to expect an oppressed group to 'solve' it, or to assume as much responsibility for a deeply asymmetric relationship. I have worked in 16 countries in Africa and there are multiple models and narratives of peace-building in specific contexts and in relation to specific conflicts. There are also multiple oppressions, violently enforced, and it is not helpful when outsiders extract symbolic stories and make them universal (Alex, I'm not having a dig at you, i'm very over the kind of romanticising of 'Africa' that goes on all the time). And then it is true that non-violent resistance only works in specific contexts. Dr King could do and say what he did because Malcolm X and the Black Panthers were active at the same time. Same with Mandela and the ANC. There is no liberation movement in history that has been successful without some kind of fighting resistance and it is naive to think that there could be. The guy in Tiannanmen Square was only able to stand in front of those tanks because there was a live global audience - if there hadn't been, he'd have been run over, no question. You need to be prepared to defend, and you need an audience. To make a specific example - how do women stop men raping and killing us by 'taking responsibility' for imagining a world without rape and death? For many of us, the imagining is all we have been doing for most of our lives. Men will not cooperate and we have no way to make them. So, what should we do? Keep asking nicely or meet the violence with an immovable resistance?https://grace-notes.blog/2019/01/04/whats-your-number/
(DIR) Post #9rVSLUxitAlN9FpSPA by PumpkinPie@spinster.xyz
2020-01-29T21:47:24Z
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@alex On mobile and traveling, so I don't have time/ability to write a good response. Will just leave these two titles as a response to Chenoweth's flawed work.The Failure of NonviolenceHow No violence Protects the StateBoth by Peter Gelderloos@AprilTui @Ilongedformuskrats @Yavanna
(DIR) Post #9rVSOV3qygBWK87yme by PumpkinPie@spinster.xyz
2020-01-29T21:48:02Z
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@alex On mobile and traveling, so I don't have time/ability to write a good response. Will just leave these two titles as a response to Chenoweth's flawed work.The Failure of NonviolenceHow Nonviolence Protects the StateBoth by Peter Gelderloos@AprilTui @Ilongedformuskrats @Yavanna
(DIR) Post #9rVUhBymLbrGYKnLe4 by Alicia@neenster.org
2020-01-29T22:13:41Z
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@alex See also The Deacons for Defense - armed protectors of US black civil rights activists.Excerpt: "The Deacons had strict membership criteria for applicants.[8] They accepted only male American citizens over the age of 21.[8] They preferred married men with military service, as well as registered voters.[8] They refused men with a reputation for "hotheadedness."[8] They vigorously upheld their stance of only acting in defense.[8] They continued guarding CORE as a means to further the overall civil rights agenda.[8] Every member of the Deacons had to pledge his life for the defense of justice, black people, and for civil rights workers.[10]During the day, the men concealed their guns. At night they carried them openly, as was allowed by the law, to discourage Klan activity at the site and in the black community. In early 1965, Black students were picketing the local high school in Jonesboro for integration. They were confronted by hostile police ready to use fire trucks with hoses against them. A car carrying four Deacons arrived. In view of the police, these men loaded their shotguns. The police ordered the fire truck to withdraw. This was the first time in the 20th century, as Hill observes, that "an armed black organization had successfully used weapons to defend a lawful protest against an attack by law enforcement."https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deacons_for_Defense_and_Justice@AprilTui @Ilongedformuskrats @Yavanna
(DIR) Post #9rVWc7kYqPzFtcr7Fg by Formermediocremale@spinster.xyz
2020-01-29T22:35:05Z
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@alex I think there is a big difference between celebrating a persons death and countering hero worship of a rapist!If his death had been allowed to pass quietly (and more respectfully) then there would not have been the "backlash". When world leaders among others celebrate a rapist though it should be called out. Otherwise you send the message that it is ok to rape as long as you make up for up after!!! He didn't make up for what he did to the actual victim, he made sure she was put through hell publicly!
(DIR) Post #9rVYhSOrhANjIVNWFc by alex@gleasonator.com
2020-01-29T22:58:28Z
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@Formermediocremale Yeah, there was some stuff I didn't know when I made that post, such as the Washington Post author who got cancelled over it, nor all of the praise and other Twitter drama. I don't have any other social media accounts so I didn't see all that stuff, but it definitely changes how I feel about it.
(DIR) Post #9rVZ2ekwwynrhVoi6S by Ladyfat@spinster.xyz
2020-01-29T23:02:31Z
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This is a really fair response. @alex @Formermediocremale
(DIR) Post #9rVZn9RpAjX6D42e3M by Formermediocremale@spinster.xyz
2020-01-29T23:10:53Z
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@alex The WP back peddled on that when colleagues and others said they were wrong.I get where you are coming from wanting pacifism, just I don't see how we can get it when women are the victims rather than perpetrators of violence generally.
(DIR) Post #9rVcPjatQg99EBoDdw by VioletFirePhoenix@spinster.xyz
2020-01-29T23:39:52Z
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Comparing a rapist to a lesbian to make an unbased point. Alex how about you STOP TALKING ABOUT LESBIANS PERIOD???? youre a homophobe, and this??????? This right here???? Jfc there arent words to describe how senselessly fucked up you are. Using and considering lesbian bodies and lives as props, YOU GET THATS HOMOPHOBIC RIGHT???!! OFC YOU DONT AND IF YOU DID YOU DONT CARE!! this thread is unspeakably vile but really its op and his vile lesbophic ideas.@Melkora @Yavanna @Starlit_Fire
(DIR) Post #9rVtjq0DQeFV43NvG4 by classybitch@spinster.xyz
2020-01-30T02:06:41Z
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@Formermediocremale @alex I don't think we are celebrating his death, we are in a space where we are allowed to acknowledge he's a rapist and we are going to be loud and talk about it. Am I sad for his family? Yes. Am I relieved that a rapist finally had some kind of retribution and his victims can stop thinking about this bastard every fucking day? Yes
(DIR) Post #9rVtjqZJKAK0otnwxc by alex@gleasonator.com
2020-01-30T02:54:14Z
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@classybitch @Formermediocremale I agree. This isn't directed at Spinster users, I was just prompted to write it after seeing a few posts. I explained more in some other posts in the thread.
(DIR) Post #9rVy8F7G6m1zifZWW8 by classybitch@spinster.xyz
2020-01-30T03:43:26Z
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@alex @Formermediocremale even if we did celebrate a man dying because he raped a young woman I don't have a problem with it, women deservedly have a huge amount of anger at what this man represents. He only got to have a career because his legal team doxxed her and she refused to testify, he admitted he raped her and another woman, he told the world it was a casual infidelity. If women need to celebrate someone like that dying because it gives us a shred of justice I'm OK with it
(DIR) Post #9rWZzZ5NJH6HR5u4pc by catling@spinster.xyz
2020-01-30T10:47:40Z
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@alex See this is what's always wrong with men who call themselves our allies. Kobe Bryant wasn't a helpless victim of society. It doesn't matter that he's not the only rapist, or that we might have been likeable at times. He raped a woman. That's a choice he freely made, and none of your stupid philosophising is gonna change that for her. The only reason you can take this pretentious stance at all is you're a man, and it will never be you in her place. Women are not responsible for men raping them, we are not responsible for men's evil, and saying that we are collectively responsible for this society is laughable coming from a man. If fucking rapists aren't responsible for rape culture, who is?Men not only can't be feminists, but with every word you lot say you prove you can't even be allies.
(DIR) Post #9rWet9X9tj1mDnf2Ho by socjuswiz@spinster.xyz
2020-01-30T11:42:44Z
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@Melkora You are being satirical, right? :blobpeek: FYI I can't see what @beep posted so I'm lacking context.@Starlit_Fire