Post 9pFhkuuXAFe7gRItV2 by jump_spider@qoto.org
(DIR) More posts by jump_spider@qoto.org
(DIR) Post #9pFTz1DT7Ra9w2zSoy by freemo@qoto.org
2019-11-23T09:06:12Z
0 likes, 2 repeats
Should we make a rule that all non-english posts must include a hand written english Translation?The main reason would be moderation as moderators cant currently read or prevent advertisements in foreign languages.
(DIR) Post #9pFUL6iJMOgnM8wvSa by saxnot@chaos.social
2019-11-23T09:10:10Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@freemo language always has cultural baggage.Language is what you change after being victorious over another country. One changes the language in order to disrupt their culture and roll out ones own culture.Language is important.
(DIR) Post #9pFUTKxAIlbVptozQ0 by freemo@qoto.org
2019-11-23T09:11:41Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@saxnot Indeed but in this case there is a functional need. We simply cant moderate effectively if everyone talks a different language. Most of that with regards to advertising
(DIR) Post #9pFcfylsssigRD5H84 by saxnot@chaos.social
2019-11-23T10:43:35Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@freemo You cannot be sure that the manually written translation correctly reflects the content in the other language.If it's the sole source for moderation then it can easily be cheated
(DIR) Post #9pFcnQ2Ttyuj2BOXVA by freemo@qoto.org
2019-11-23T10:44:56Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@saxnot Agreed, you cant. But if a user is found to be giving clearly dishonest translations that would therefore result in moderator action.So that can be easily addressed.
(DIR) Post #9pFes0eju0L7fObevQ by jump_spider@qoto.org
2019-11-23T11:08:10Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@freemoI voted no because it puts an undue burden on the user. I think the solution is either to enlist a moderator who can read the language -or- trust that other users who can read the language will report responsibly@saxnot
(DIR) Post #9pFfJqqnx5Y9MdWfMO by freemo@qoto.org
2019-11-23T11:13:07Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@jump_spider Do we really want to have a new moderator for every new language. Having as many moderators as there are people doesnt seem viable.As for relying on people to report, in theory that sounds reasonable, in practice that isnt what happens.easily 95% of the things i moderate are things I find after 12+ hours that no one ever reported, usually even very obvious offenders, nudity, advertisements, etc. People dont report it for a few reasonsFirst the average user doesnt know enough about the rules to know when to report. Second they feel like a burden reporting it like they are complaining. Thirdly they assume that content is allowed if its around and not noticed on an instance that isnt very active.But most importantly most people wont join a timeline riddles with ads and spam and stick around and be proactive about reporting in the hope it cleans it up. By the time a user reports it it is too late.Think of it like email. Would you be ok with an email service that does absolutely nothing to pre-emptively prevent spam before you see it? If it relied entierly on your own blocking of servers **after** you identify spam in order to prevent it. Of course not, its the same here.The end result is usually not that people will report it, but rather people will simply leave the server and go to a place where the timeline isnt filled with spam in the first place.@saxnot
(DIR) Post #9pFgI1T3biRtfQ6sq0 by saxnot@chaos.social
2019-11-23T11:24:05Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@freemo @jump_spider your email argument is convincing yet I can't see the burden of "everyone has to write everything in english all the time" to be in appropriate relation to the "mods can read it ; moderation frequency or speed doesn't increase though"
(DIR) Post #9pFgOYlqhT7mgz16rA by freemo@qoto.org
2019-11-23T11:25:10Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@saxnot If we enacted such a rule then people who dont speak fluent english would not be allowed on the instance. If they dont speak english how did they read the rules and understand them or even know that we are a STEM instance for that matter. We are not a general purpose instance, we are not here to cater to everyone.@jump_spider
(DIR) Post #9pFgQpa1AuRNP7Z9UW by saxnot@chaos.social
2019-11-23T11:25:41Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@freemo @jump_spider hooray for gatekeeping i guess?
(DIR) Post #9pFgSKrGMwUghXLjma by jump_spider@qoto.org
2019-11-23T11:25:59Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@freemo Semi-open registration may be appropriate then, requiring a written submission for why a user wants to join@saxnot
(DIR) Post #9pFgvIDJHPgetiTBr6 by freemo@qoto.org
2019-11-23T11:31:10Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@jump_spider And if they do not live up to what they say? What if someone wants to come here with the sole intention of spamming advertisements in a foreign langauge and simply claims to want to come here for stem so they can get access? How would we prevent that after the fact in a way that is quick and before it has a chance to pollute the timeline for everyone.You have to remember spam is a huge problem on the fediverse, just as much as any email server.@saxnot
(DIR) Post #9pFh1pCxWL3AxuQ82K by saxnot@chaos.social
2019-11-23T11:32:22Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@freemo @jump_spider because it's effort and spammers hate effort
(DIR) Post #9pFhEc85SRL8AREw2S by freemo@qoto.org
2019-11-23T11:34:41Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@saxnot Yes and no. If they found they had to fill it in, wait a day, then they got banned 5 minutes after their first post and had to repeat, then i agree, they would avoid it.But when their spam goes unnoticed for weeks or months on end (which seems to be the pattern with ads in foreign languages so far) then that small initial effort is well worth it for them.@jump_spider
(DIR) Post #9pFhfPe5yosfGhzS2C by saxnot@chaos.social
2019-11-23T11:39:28Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@freemo @jump_spider i don't find the article right now but I think it was Jeff Atwood who secured his commend field with a "2+2=" chaptra. He never changed it. He said it was the most naive way of preventing spam he could think of and it lowered spam like 99 % or somethingi looked fo the source and was unable to locate it
(DIR) Post #9pFhku4QHzxj4ovHH6 by jump_spider@qoto.org
2019-11-23T11:33:43Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@saxnot @freemo 💯 I don't know how the written submission feature works; maybe the submission can be cross-referenced with the poster's actual activity? And I think there's a moderation feature to purge an account's activity from the server, although I'm not sure how well that federates.
(DIR) Post #9pFhkuMVCmQLytNiSG by saxnot@chaos.social
2019-11-23T11:35:20Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@jump_spider @freemo like having an email address or something?and/or i'll message the admin from a different fediverse account?I don't think an elaborate process here is needed. Create a minimal entry hurdle (e. g. every person needs to solve 2+2 before signup) and everything else can continue to be like now. Probably spam will go down...
(DIR) Post #9pFhkuuXAFe7gRItV2 by jump_spider@qoto.org
2019-11-23T11:37:32Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@saxnot @freemo It may be appropriate to include a clause in the ToS that moderation is always best effort and due supporting multiple languages, non-English moderation will not be as comprehensive as desired. (And a call for volunteer moderators in the ToS might be good too.)
(DIR) Post #9pFhkvNbQAtl8au6oC by freemo@qoto.org
2019-11-23T11:40:28Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@jump_spider More importantly, how does it serve the interests of the community to host people who can not speak english, who can not understand the rules, and who can not be directed by the moderators when acting inappropriately.To me it seems like as it stands now anyone who doesnt speak english is effectively immune from the rules of the community all together.@saxnot
(DIR) Post #9pFhvhYLAYOxRL47Hs by saxnot@chaos.social
2019-11-23T11:41:16Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@jump_spider @freemo nobody reads ToS
(DIR) Post #9pFhvhv1oCY8ZhgEeO by freemo@qoto.org
2019-11-23T11:42:26Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@saxnot We remind ebvery new user to read it. But if they behave in a way that demonstrates that they did not then we will temporarily silence if needed and otherwise let them know how/why they violated it to ensure they dont continue to do so in the future.None of that is possible for a non-english speaker.@jump_spider
(DIR) Post #9pFi7wCcWn0oLljzJA by saxnot@chaos.social
2019-11-23T11:43:22Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
I think i'll tune out of this conversation nowperhaps you find an appropriate solution@jump_spider @freemo
(DIR) Post #9pFi7x21Rg82vBn2Qa by freemo@qoto.org
2019-11-23T11:44:40Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@saxnot Sure, thanks@jump_spider
(DIR) Post #9pFzHJG3sMcfgNPAPY by Sphinx@qoto.org
2019-11-23T14:56:50Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@freemo when we are talking about languages here, we are talking about the content of " foreign languages". a lot of times, one language stands for one culture.English as the most universal language in the world. i understand why some of people know English at least the basic of them but still don't post in English instead of the first language on social media.because they feel more comfortable that way. when we use the tag language to ask people's view, their first feeling is they can say any language they want.what i try to say is the best way is can only affect, can not be forced.before sort out this spam issue, or enhance the quality of this instance, it's necessary close the register before it's getting totally out of control. people here can invite new user but you can raise the threshold of register like set up some questions about STEM or ask what language they prefer .@saxnot @jump_spider
(DIR) Post #9pGD79ZASC625POQG8 by chikara@qoto.org
2019-11-23T17:31:52Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@freemo Your reasonable argument for translation of non-English posts is sufficient, compelling..I'm persuaded to vote "yes" because of two quite different reasons which need to be made explicit. .A. The motto and core functon of QOTO is very clear:QOTO = Question Others to Teach Ourselves?If a post is in a language I can't understand, the explicit purpose and/or function of this Mastodon instance is thwarted. That's not good.B. The function of a social media website is communication, but that important opportunity is frustrated, for example, if a post is in Telugu. If someone post anything at all in Telugu, the words are understood only those who can read this Dravidian language. Does this mean someone should infer that I'm "anti-Telugu"? No. Who's kidding who?.I'd like to see another vote on a related but more general topic: Should we make a rule which mitigates solipsim because of the unintended consequences?.Going forward, we can do better, right?.QOTO = Question Others to Teach Ourselves?
(DIR) Post #9pGDPrIGcBpSuuPIxs by chikara@qoto.org
2019-11-23T17:35:16Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@freemo Your reasonable argument for translation of non-English posts is sufficient, compelling..I'm persuaded to vote "yes" because of two quite different reasons which need to be made explicit. .A. The motto and core functon of QOTO is very clear:QOTO = Question Others to Teach Ourselves?If a post is in a language I can't understand, the explicit purpose and/or function of this Mastodon instance is thwarted. That's not good.B. The function of a social media website is communication, but that important opportunity is frustrated, for example, if a post is in Telugu. If someone post anything at all in Telugu, the words are understood only those who can read this Dravidian language. .Does this mean someone should infer that I'm "anti-Telugu"? No, not at all, who's kidding who?.RESTATEMENT/BOTTOM LINE: I'd like to see another vote on a related but more general topic: Should we make a rule which mitigates solipsism because of the unintended consequences?.Going forward, we learn lessons the hard way, right? We can do better, right?.QOTO = Question Others to Teach Ourselves?
(DIR) Post #9pGEKMURoXzft62zmy by chikara@qoto.org
2019-11-23T17:45:29Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@freemo Your reasonable argument for translation of non-English posts is sufficient, compelling..I'm persuaded to vote "yes" because of two quite different reasons which need to be made explicit. .A. The motto and core functon of QOTO is very clear:QOTO = Question Others to Teach Ourselves?If a post is in a language I can't understand, the explicit purpose and/or function of this Mastodon instance is thwarted. That's not good.B. The function of a social media website is communication, but that important opportunity is frustrated, for example, if a post is in Telugu. If someone post anything at all in Telugu, the words are understood only those who can read this Dravidian language. .Does this mean someone should infer that I'm "anti-Telugu"? No, not at all, who's kidding who?.RESTATEMENT/BOTTOM LINE: I'd like to see another vote on a related but more general topic: Should we make a rule which mitigates solipsism because of the unintended consequences?.Going forward, we learn lessons the hard way, right? .We can do better, right?.QOTO = Question Others to Teach Ourselves?
(DIR) Post #9pGVYZFqqpQmkda0Qa by compass_straight_edge@qoto.org
2019-11-23T20:58:10Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@freemo >tfw people start annexing photos of their posts written on a piece of paper
(DIR) Post #9pGXKzq3PqAB3PAaJs by compass_straight_edge@qoto.org
2019-11-23T21:18:30Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@freemo Just realized, is this because of the new influx of indian posters? If so, then know that most of them are bots. They are popping up on all instances. Comment something on their posts and see if the response makes any sense.India recently blocked twitter so a lot of people are comming to the fediverse. Which includes advertising and data mining networks that have to rebuild their bot netoworks.Most or all followers of those "people" should be similar accounts.
(DIR) Post #9pGXPhY4qRHhmD0Lq4 by freemo@qoto.org
2019-11-23T21:19:20Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@compass_straight_edge I also interact with all new users who post on our local time line. They do all appear to be real people. But yes it is partly related to the new indian users.
(DIR) Post #9pH8VPidkDSmWKX4e8 by khird@qoto.org
2019-11-24T04:14:54Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@freemoMy thoughts on the matter, having read and considered the existing discussion but not replying to any particular part of it:Enlisting a new mod for every language spoken here doesn't make sense. A monolingual server with five mods and a thousand users is very different from a server with five languages, each with two hundred users and one mod - each language may have a different rate of abuse, mods can't pick up one another's slack when they go on vacation, etc. Moreover, evaluating a foreign-language candidate's suitability is unlikely to be better than guesswork, and rogue mods can cause a lot of damage very quickly. I do not think you will find this an effective solution.You might reason something like the following:1. In order that other servers need not block us to avoid being spammed, and to improve the experience of our own users, all content posted here is moderated.2. As discussed above, content in languages other than English cannot be practicably moderated here. 3. Therefore, the set of content posted here (which, by statement 1, *is* guaranteed moderated) must be disjoint from the set of content in languages other than English (which, by statement 2, *cannot be* guaranteed moderated).Ergo, content posted here must be in English.If you think that user-submitted translations on the honour system are suffucient to make content locally moderatable, you can amend statements 2 and 3 accordingly - but I tend to think that you shouldn't consider such posts actively moderated, because you rely on user reports to find out that someone's cheating.The appropriate solution is *not* for QOTO to try to bodge together a Swiss-army-knife mod team that can moderate any content, but for users who post content that QOTO cannot moderate to use another server that can (or recruit their own moderators and start their own). Then we federate with them and everyone is happy.