Post 9oSW5nCmmJD7Z91yds by rah@social.librem.one
(DIR) More posts by rah@social.librem.one
(DIR) Post #9oK556q8d3HFlk03e4 by fitheach@mstdn.io
2019-10-26T16:28:35Z
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Good to see that the Radical Independence Conference was so busy in Glasgow, to-day.Included in the agenda was a presentation by Clara Ponsatí. The audience made it clear that they opposed the curtailment of political freedoms in Catalonia.The proceedings were filmed. I'll post a link once the video is available online.#RIC #Scotland #independence #Catalonia
(DIR) Post #9oKQg5GlWrEOeMvWeu by fitheach@mstdn.io
2019-10-26T20:29:53Z
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As promised, the link to the RIC 2019 conference video (all 6 hours):https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WhJ3tVJc2E
(DIR) Post #9oMNbkaqY705osTuVc by krozruch@eupublic.social
2019-10-27T19:05:29Z
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@fitheach I was re-reading Democracy in Europe by Larry Siedentop earlier - it's a Tory take on events from back in 2000 but none the less enlightening for that - and got to thinking of the chance of an independent Scotland helping to improve the currently dire level of debate relating to the EU's institutions, federalism, and democracy. An independent Scotland could punch above its weight in terms of the necessary reform of the EU. Civil society there seems exceptionally strong right now.
(DIR) Post #9oMQGVjCvEGLUtxKEq by fitheach@mstdn.io
2019-10-27T19:35:22Z
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@krozruch That might be the case, but I'm not counting our chickens. Scotland has to achieve independence before we think of anything else. For sure there are many areas where the EU could do with reform. Aren't there some small Euro states trying to do this already?
(DIR) Post #9oMQruj2wf2jjwiRRg by krozruch@eupublic.social
2019-10-27T19:42:03Z
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@fitheach Quite so though I suppose this is one vector of a favourable outcome in the context of my pessimism in terms of both Britain's future & Europe's.. Small states in the EU are having a hard time getting their voice heard, I'd say. And not all of them are reacting to this with constructive criticism - to do so is a risk. Those that are the most constructive are closer to the status quo. Any post-Brexit independent Scotland would be a new entity, peculiarly visible as such for a few years.
(DIR) Post #9oMSAH0gvjNI1NHsci by krozruch@eupublic.social
2019-10-27T19:46:03Z
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@fitheach Little more than an idle thought, then, but Scotland's intellectual heritage is rather exceptional and independence could lead to rediscovery and reinterpretation... A long way to go but things could happen quickly IF - a big if - pro-independence folk play their hand well in the next few years. English is a plus; no less so for Brexit... Anyway, one can hope.
(DIR) Post #9oMSAHekWnPw1c1s3s by fitheach@mstdn.io
2019-10-27T19:56:41Z
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@krozruch Well...This is supposition, but one possible constraint might be the concern that a smaller state might be punished economically by the bigger states, if they create too much trouble. I'd be surprised if that were the case for Swedenor Finland or Ireland, but you never know.What would be your top priority for reform?
(DIR) Post #9oNPZeW0ZQHxSLJ0V6 by krozruch@eupublic.social
2019-10-28T07:02:17Z
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@fitheach The Common Agricultural Policy and the parliament shunting between Brussels and Strasbourg, but reform may be the wrong word for the main work which needs to be done. Siedentop frames his discussion of the democratic deficit in the EU (which he plausibly claims to support as a project) with the Federalist Papers and the discussion that preceded the founding of the USA. He claims, rightly in my view, that this has been absent in the EU.
(DIR) Post #9oNZ5y1gSp6yp2baaW by fitheach@mstdn.io
2019-10-28T08:48:58Z
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@krozruch CAP is a behemoth, no doubt about it. Something France was, I believe, particularly keen to have in the early days of the European project. The problem now is quite a few countries like it. It does seem to have helped achieve one objective: Europe being able to produce enough food.The geographical distribution of EU institutions is a good thing. Not that the current locations do much for Ireland, Finland or Cyprus, for example.
(DIR) Post #9oNaQtClgTfbuAKX7A by krozruch@eupublic.social
2019-10-28T07:06:31Z
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@fitheach Language complicates things. The US shares a language and, broadly speaking, a culture, though it has become more multicultural since the foundation, and Native Americans have generally been ignored in all discussions. The EU has 24 official languages (some are overlooked, I think). In my experience this means that both its legitimacy and the tendency of people to identify with it is significantly higher the higher the educational level. This is a major problem.
(DIR) Post #9oNaQtgBv5CpNQ61ya by fitheach@mstdn.io
2019-10-28T09:03:52Z
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@krozruch The USA has hardly any homogeneity. This is normal in any big country. There will be certain things that bind the country together, but they are possibly different from what we normally think of as culture.For the same reason it should be possible for an EU to operate certain things on a shared basis. Though I do hesitate to go as far as advocating a "super state".
(DIR) Post #9oNawTFdiNNOg4jTQe by krozruch@eupublic.social
2019-10-28T07:09:29Z
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@fitheach If these people (leavers in the UK, but similar demographics elsewhere) are not won over in terms of legitimacy and identity both, then the game is over sooner or later and / or only heavy handed tactics, such as are seen against the yellow vest in France, can shore up the institutions.. Further, the EU has both expanded into territories whose political cultures were broken over generations while at the same time increasing its powers over nation states. This was poor strategy.
(DIR) Post #9oNawUpTqbdjZWVbvs by fitheach@mstdn.io
2019-10-28T09:09:39Z
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@krozruch I understand that the traditions in other EU states is different, but the role of the EU Commission needs to be changed. It is not the role of civil servants to produce policy, this should come from the parliament.I don't know the original arguments for the EU Council, but I can guess. A sop towards national sovereignty perhaps. Does it still need to exist?
(DIR) Post #9oNmCAtgoyxtsn9kvo by krozruch@eupublic.social
2019-10-28T11:15:48Z
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@fitheach Yes, this is Siedentop's argument circa 2000. It was a fiction even then, but I do think that in terms of federalism a single shared language is a boon. At that point the debate about a European federalist state as a key goal was more prominent than it is now. The hetereogeneity of Europe is a great strenght, of course, and I consider the same to be true of the UK, but in terms of a shared notion of European identity it poses difficults not resolved by the EU's bureaucratic nature.
(DIR) Post #9oNmECraTy9OYl8r9E by krozruch@eupublic.social
2019-10-28T11:16:14Z
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@fitheach 100%
(DIR) Post #9oOCGOzmwYUlZggYW8 by fitheach@mstdn.io
2019-10-28T16:08:00Z
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@krozruch Everyone in the EU probably feels European, but not every European is in the EU. I'm sure the Swiss and the Norwegians feel European, too.It isn't necessary for everyone in the EU to think in the same way or share the same culture or language. It is sufficient for people to share some values, objectives, and a means of achieving them.
(DIR) Post #9oQ3f2tDAch3MHPfRA by krozruch@eupublic.social
2019-10-29T13:40:57Z
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@fitheach I think a lot of people in the EU don't feel European. I'm certainly talking about plenty of people here in the Czech Republic where even among young people that's not a given. Swiss and Norwegians more so.
(DIR) Post #9oQA4eYKsLmX8LF5SC by fitheach@mstdn.io
2019-10-29T14:52:52Z
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@krozruch If not European what then, Slavic?
(DIR) Post #9oQFdyEQCZIe4YaUro by krozruch@eupublic.social
2019-10-29T15:55:16Z
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@fitheach Not so much - for those I know. Here there are strong regional identities such as in Moravia, but for many people identity doesn't reach much further than the national level even outside of Central Europe.
(DIR) Post #9oQUkj0kgitICrsARk by krozruch@eupublic.social
2019-10-29T15:56:41Z
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@fitheach Here there is the additional complexity that there are those who believe things were better before the revolution (you hear them grumbling to themselves on trams in Prague, but there's many outside of the city), and also that these countries have rarely been independent for long and their countries appear marginal and voiceless in the EU.
(DIR) Post #9oQUkjRL5s9rXKJOt6 by krozruch@eupublic.social
2019-10-29T15:59:39Z
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@fitheach But a lot of the people I grew up with in the Black Country absolutely did not view themselves as anything but tangentially European if that. They were English in a way I have never been. For a time I read think pieces about the Erasmus Generation. Self-evidently, that is not a generation but a privileged demographic, and those (like myself) who view themselves as European tend to be university educated and materially well-situated. That is a problem for democratic legitimacy.
(DIR) Post #9oQUkjxx8cFJATZRiq by fitheach@mstdn.io
2019-10-29T18:44:32Z
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@krozruch I'm a Highlander first, of course, but that doesn't stop me being Scottish or European. Are people equating Europe with the EU? Have EU politicians using the term Europe when they mean EU, poisoned the well?
(DIR) Post #9oQktArCdjCk9WSOCu by kensanata@octodon.social
2019-10-29T21:45:21Z
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@fitheach @krozruch as somebody from Switzerland who feels European it does feel weird when people mean the EU when they say Europe. And sometimes we just get added as an afterthought because of the bilateral agreements…
(DIR) Post #9oQpJVUcwEb1V1i1xY by fitheach@mstdn.io
2019-10-29T22:34:56Z
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@kensanata @krozruch The situation is much worse in the UK. Even people who don't/didn't have an idealogical problem with the EU, would refer to continental Europe as just Europe. Their language separated the UK from Europe, emphasising a British exceptionalism. The apocryphal newspaper headline "Fog in Channel; Continent Cut Off" attitude exemplified.The EU referendum brought those attitudes to the fore, and then amplified them.However, you can't escape geography:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Europe_orthographic_Caucasus_Urals_boundary.svg
(DIR) Post #9oRWSBAABrVl59WF2O by krozruch@eupublic.social
2019-10-30T06:38:21Z
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@fitheach People in the Black Country used to hate me for watching French films with subtitles. In many working class circles not only in England, people are suspicious of cosmopolitanism and carry with them a Tabloid-style suspicion of Johnny Foreigner to a much greater degree than might be suspected by commentators who live in capital cities or outside of the struggling periphery. Some of this is the conflation of Europe and EU, but I think not all of it.
(DIR) Post #9oRg6bnLUYDEqnCQ9w by edavies@octodon.social
2019-10-30T08:26:28Z
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@fitheach @kensanata @krozruch A practical acknowledgement of UK nationals not thinking of themselves as EU citizens: https://lifeandphysics.com/2019/03/28/going-through-gva/
(DIR) Post #9oRmygcQN8znAqGDEe by fitheach@mstdn.io
2019-10-30T09:43:28Z
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@krozruch People in the "periphery" being suspicious of metropolitans is a universal trait, as is distrust of foreigners (sadly). What is more pronounced in the UK is the "otherness" compared to the European neighbours. I'm sure it is a hangover from the days of empire, where Europe was a competitor. French films with subtitles? That was probably anti-intellectualism rather than anti-European.
(DIR) Post #9oS41w9qkknlSP1yJk by rah@social.librem.one
2019-10-30T12:54:33Z
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@fitheach @krozruch I don't think the cause of Britons' sense of "otherness" is so subtle, I think it's quite plain: our country is physically separate from the rest of Europe.
(DIR) Post #9oSKhovLdZtUS0F0fA by fitheach@mstdn.io
2019-10-30T16:01:26Z
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@rah If that was true, Ireland, which is even more geographically remote from continental Europe, would also be anti-Europe, but that isn't the case.@krozruch
(DIR) Post #9oSUoRuGc4c6dFXELg by rah@social.librem.one
2019-10-30T17:54:39Z
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@fitheach @krozruch I never said 'anti-Europe', I said 'sense of "otherness"'.
(DIR) Post #9oSV7V5mzaYm0z0blw by fitheach@mstdn.io
2019-10-30T17:58:07Z
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@rah So, what exactly did you mean by:"our country is physically separate from the rest of Europe."@krozruch
(DIR) Post #9oSW5nCmmJD7Z91yds by rah@social.librem.one
2019-10-30T18:09:00Z
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@fitheach @krozruch I meant the country is surrounded by water with no land bridge to the rest of Europe.
(DIR) Post #9oSZIAnvABlY5tznYO by fitheach@mstdn.io
2019-10-30T18:44:52Z
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@rah The 21 miles gap at the Strait of Dover is not an insurmountable obstacle in the modern age. The otherness has to be explained by other things. Language, of course, is another obstacle. However, Ireland also has both of those "disadvantages" and they, in the main, are enthusiastic Europeans. @krozruch