Post 9lCXDm8OiFnWyyKzvU by orionwl@x0f.org
(DIR) More posts by orionwl@x0f.org
(DIR) Post #9lCXDkcSLWeaHcNyV6 by waxwing@mastodon.social
2019-07-23T12:32:39Z
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https://quillette.com/2019/07/22/when-the-lion-wakes-the-global-threat-of-the-chinese-communist-party/e.g. :"... A Swedish citizen was abducted in Thailand and flown to China after publishing books critical of the Chinese authorities, and a British citizen from Hull was snatched in Beijing airport and jailed for comments he’d made on Facebook. He was on his way from the Philippines to the UK and only stopping off briefly in the airport, but he ended up spending two weeks in prison for the crime of “not being a friend to China.” .."article may be worth a read (1/2)
(DIR) Post #9lCXDlEk3BHKCMIYAy by waxwing@mastodon.social
2019-07-23T12:33:34Z
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.. if you're not too familiar with how dangerous the CCP has become.If I had a quibble, it's that, while it documents how craven Western political and business organisations have become, it doesn't really discuss *why*, and that's crucially important.
(DIR) Post #9lCXDlmm0eV5tuDjDk by orionwl@x0f.org
2019-07-23T13:07:02Z
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@waxwing I agree that the CCP is dangerous, though, for someone from Europe "[The Chinese authorities] apparently believe that the citizens of all countries come under their jurisdiction. This is more than aggressive nationalism, this is imperialism."", "Academic institutions are increasingly reliant on Chinese money", etc, it sounds very much like the US govt. and the ways they've been applying their power everywhere—and they get away with it, so why wouldn't the CCP try too?
(DIR) Post #9lCXDm8OiFnWyyKzvU by orionwl@x0f.org
2019-07-23T13:12:14Z
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@waxwing like there are a lot of bogeymen and really scary organizations in the world, we all need to be scared, i guess, but this article feels like like *look at how scary China is*, it's kind of mirroring *don't look the other way*, human rights violations are bad, not suddenly because China is doing them
(DIR) Post #9lCXDmOhjcqFnXy1LM by waxwing@mastodon.social
2019-07-23T15:11:03Z
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@orionwl This perspective is common, but imo wrong.The west will treat people like Julian Assange like this - complete violation of rights, thuggishness, even torture.The CCP will do this to anyone who questions their absolute power. Lawyers, journalists, activists. Their families. They have placed entire popualations in internment camps.There is no freedom of speech - imo it's the absence of this safety valve that matters the most.Thinking it's equivalent to the west is just wrong.
(DIR) Post #9lCXDmkgPuQGtiFZbM by FreePietje@x0f.org
2019-07-23T18:47:59Z
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@waxwing @orionwl They *start* with people like Julian Assange.Dutch lawyers didn't get visas to the US because the represent(ed) ppl the US didn't like. Journalist, not just JA, are targeted by the US gov (also AU gov). Whistle blowers were charged under Espionage Act in an unprecedented way under Obama. Trump massively accelerated it (https://x0f.org/@FreePietje/102153161450384087)US MSM suck, but calling it "the enemy of the people" worries me a lot.My "better marketing" thread: https://x0f.org/@FreePietje/101608244331912480
(DIR) Post #9lCXDn3TI3S3pz2Zt2 by waxwing@mastodon.social
2019-07-24T10:41:12Z
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@FreePietje @orionwl Yes, but all of this only proves that the tendency exists in the West towards the same kind of dissent silencing. We still have some freedom of speech and pushback.CCP imprisons, tortures and intimidates the families of its own citizen journalists. People in China don't even hear about it. Heck one activist got a Nobel prize and Chinese people whose fedlings, according to the CCP, had been hurt, in actual fact didn't even recognize his name.There is no equivalence.
(DIR) Post #9lCXDnNK6FKapYKQpU by orionwl@x0f.org
2019-07-24T11:06:33Z
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@waxwing @FreePietje sure, i just think the rise of authoritarianism is a global problem, not an 'us' versus 'them' problemand i'm sure propaganda like this is another pretense for sanctions, or war, or at least aggressive nationalism, and i believe any of those things makes the problem worse not better
(DIR) Post #9lCXDngSx4dxmvHifQ by waxwing@mastodon.social
2019-07-24T12:21:14Z
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@orionwl @FreePietje From that perspective I somewhat agree, I don't see many good options. In a way, the ethical thing to do is to treat China like North Korea in terms of trade and diplomacy, as long as the CCP is in power (admittedly it's only 10% as bad as NK but it's still unacceptable). But that's not realistic.The reason I engage in discussions like this is to help good-thinking people to realise that it's not just another corrupt country, it's an issue for the whole world.
(DIR) Post #9lCXDo6LOrLN5BOO0G by FreePietje@x0f.org
2019-07-24T12:31:42Z
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@waxwing @orionwl I could not disagree more.What good has sanctions (in general) brought the world? I know that 100s of thousands if not millions of civilians have died because of it. It's always normal people, often the poorest ones, who have no part in this geopolitical game that pay the price. With their lives.
(DIR) Post #9lCXDoJSc5prjrWrRo by waxwing@mastodon.social
2019-07-24T12:34:24Z
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@FreePietje @orionwl OK; I wasn't advocating sanctions though, per se.See where it gets tricky is when you have a genuinely authoritarian state that effectively controls all business activity. Any business you do with NK is doing business with the state. You won't be allowed to do any other sort of trade.Like I say, that's only 10% as true in China (but the large industrial companies are all under the complete control of the party, make no mistake).
(DIR) Post #9lCXDodJQHiOjQoiOG by Sosthene@bitcoinhackers.org
2019-07-25T07:29:57Z
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@waxwing @FreePietje @orionwl just to nuance things a bit, I think the CCP is much weaker than it appears to be esp in western media. Chinese bureaucrats don't really care about world hegemony, they think the only threat to their power comes from the Chinese people itself, and they're mostly right. The economy is nowhere as good as they've been saying, and there is an arm race to strengthen their grip on the people before they rise up and overthrow them like they always did in the past
(DIR) Post #9lDtxvkKF99y7paWaO by waxwing@mastodon.social
2019-07-25T23:19:34Z
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@Sosthene @FreePietje @orionwl Re: hegemony, yeah somewhat, but things have changed, a lot in the last 10-15 years and especially since Xi Jinping took power.See: 9 dotted line, see belt and road initiative. The direction is clear.It's not that I disagree with you about their threat analysis, it's more that there's a significant delta developing in the (now permanent) Xi era.
(DIR) Post #9lElr9uEatYXXTRWUa by Sosthene@bitcoinhackers.org
2019-07-26T09:23:26Z
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@waxwing @FreePietje @orionwl I'm aware of all the international investment and "imperialist" policies of those last years, I'm just saying that if you want to deal with this you better not forget what they have in mind is to stimulate the Chinese economy to sustain the illusion of economic growth (and probably keep kicking the can down the road until the unavoidable crisis triggered by the heavy misinvestment of the last 2 decades). They have little interest in world hegemony for the sake of it
(DIR) Post #9lEmlegXLT1LDOyXyq by waxwing@mastodon.social
2019-07-26T09:33:38Z
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@Sosthene @FreePietje @orionwlAmerica is/was exactly the same. They had less than zero imperialist ambitions. They became de facto imperialist because it was the way to improve their power, wealth and security.
(DIR) Post #9lEnWmOUV8mqjb0OWm by Sosthene@bitcoinhackers.org
2019-07-26T09:42:07Z
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@waxwing @FreePietje @orionwl yeah maybe it doesn't make much difference in the way you handle it in the end, but it's always better to understand you're opponent deepest motivation. It was certainly the case for America one century ago but interestingly it seems to become a goal in itself after a few generations. The dollar also plays an underestimated role in the urge for such policies in the case of the US and (I suspect) for China today too.Now we'll see if they can espace Thucydide's trap