Post 9hD3g7nvdlanCigCRM by nergalur@mastodon.technology
(DIR) More posts by nergalur@mastodon.technology
(DIR) Post #9hCZVk8vlCc2IcdXKy by HerraBRE@mastodon.xyz
2019-03-27T14:50:32Z
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@LibertyPaulM Agreed.I wish we, as a community, spent more time making independence easier (lowering the bar) and less time scolding users for making perfectly rational choices.
(DIR) Post #9hCZVkX2JZtXVNumuW by Shamar@mastodon.social
2019-03-27T16:06:01Z
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@HerraBRE @LibertyPaulM > Not everyone can have the> skills or time to host stuff> themselves.Bullshit.https://freedombone.net/https://yunohost.org/https://freedombox.org/As one who can read and write, I will always say to people who cannot to learn and help them to.#Programming is today what writing was during Ancient Egypt.Everybody can learn how to code and host their own software.We just need to teach them self-confidence and #curiosity.And to learn how to teach this.
(DIR) Post #9hCZVkp7EMMAPSNE5g by dublinux@mastodon.technology
2019-03-27T16:26:41Z
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@LibertyPaulM I agree more with @Shamar here. Helplessness when it comes to computers is in many ways learned. When your Sofware Provider constantly changes things around much as Tesco moves products around their stores to 'optimise' things(for them) then people get confused.Unfortunately there is an arrogance about those who constantly boast about hosting their own incredible setup and this intimidates non-technical users. Most experts don't know more than 3% of what's going on on their machines.
(DIR) Post #9hCdK5jm2zdjc9ZMbw by HerraBRE@mastodon.xyz
2019-03-27T17:02:02Z
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@dublinux @LibertyPaulM @Shamar Learned helplessness is a thing.But tech is still complicated and it takes time to learn.Time is our most limited resource. All the time spent learning tech is time not spent dancing or cooking or playing musical instruments, or whatever else people might care (or need) to do.I'm arguing that people who spend their time on other things ALSO deserve freedom and privacy in how they compute, and the FOSS world should work towards that. Lower the bar!
(DIR) Post #9hCdK652lueag7WLlQ by dublinux@mastodon.technology
2019-03-27T17:09:08Z
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@HerraBRE @LibertyPaulM Computers are ridiculously complicated without making them more so. I have been reading tech articles for 20 years and regularly stumble upon stuff that baffles me.And one way of lowering the bar (or rather not raising it in the first place) is to not constantly change things around on people's computers. If people used the same computer setup from the age of say 5 and computers were taught properly in school over 50% of adults would have good enough skills to self-host.
(DIR) Post #9hCeTTC8Ioa8vVrzeq by alcinnz@floss.social
2019-03-27T17:22:44Z
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@LibertyPaulM And if you do believe everyone should self-host, make it just as easy for them to do so. Make sure they don't need to learn any skills.There's a few good projects this way.
(DIR) Post #9hCfDDObNHepFRVzpQ by HerraBRE@mastodon.xyz
2019-03-27T16:22:31Z
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@Shamar @LibertyPaulM And give them enough money and extra free time so they can afford to do all this stuff you think they should do, instead of doing the things they care about today?Your attitude is incredibly elitist and unrealistic for a very large portion of the humans on this planet.Yes, technology should be accessible, we should help people learn. But we should ALSO help those who can't or won't, and respect their choices.
(DIR) Post #9hCfbmRQj9rMtFYGBM by cvcvcv@bsd.moe
2019-03-27T17:35:36.655960Z
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@Shamar @HerraBRE @LibertyPaulM degrading unnatural inhuman SURROGATE SHIT
(DIR) Post #9hCiolVDpSK3bbCzOi by freakazoid@retro.social
2019-03-27T17:05:03Z
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@HerraBRE @Shamar @LibertyPaulM @dublinux Those of us who grew up on computers drastically underestimate how shallow the understanding of them tends to be for people who didn't.
(DIR) Post #9hCjAuVj19XNul0HIm by codesections@fosstodon.org
2019-03-27T17:19:35Z
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@Shamar @HerraBRE @LibertyPaulM > #Programming is today what writing was during Ancient Egypt.I disagree with that, for reasons others have said.But *even if that's true*, the global literacy rate is still at 80-something percent. https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SE.ADT.LITR.ZSAnd we've had ~5,000 years to work on that.Now, I'm not saying that we'll need 5k years for computer literacy (for one thing, I'm not sure humanity will exit that long). But we need to plan for a long period of computer education
(DIR) Post #9hCjGo4lr3Rnh9Cv6O by freakazoid@retro.social
2019-03-27T17:12:29Z
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@dublinux @LibertyPaulM @HerraBRE I know it sounds weird to say this, but computers are still a new, immature technology. They may still be when we're all dead. If I used the same setup as when I was 5 (well, 7), I'd still be loading BASIC programs from an audio cassette. For millennials, smartphones and tablets wouldn't exist and they'd be using the XP interface... only that wouldn't exist because they'd have been catering to me loading BASIC programs from tape.Though we could`ve stuck with XP.
(DIR) Post #9hCjoAvltyc28NuRpA by Shamar@mastodon.social
2019-03-27T18:16:53Z
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@codesectionsYes, we need #education to #Informatics (which is about #information not #computers, computers are just mirrors for our minds) AND we need tons of #Research to improve the depressing state of current #IT.Will it take 5000 years?I guess a lot of people will do their best to keep us slave (through #Capitalism) and the rest of people slave through #Ignorance.@galaxis @HerraBRE @dublinux @LibertyPaulM @klaatu @freakazoid
(DIR) Post #9hCjoB8X8WowlxsdiS by Shamar@mastodon.social
2019-03-27T18:22:25Z
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@codesections @galaxis @HerraBRE @dublinux @LibertyPaulM @klaatu @freakazoidBut my bet is in #kids and #hackers.As a #hacker I'm directing my #curiosity towards the research of better distributed operating systems (see http://jehanne.io ) and to kids education at school. I know there's a lot more to do, we need simpler programming language, deeper understanding of the relation between #information and #data...
(DIR) Post #9hCoTztxhL1vuIGEE4 by Shamar@mastodon.social
2019-03-27T18:28:18Z
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@codesections @galaxis @HerraBRE @dublinux @LibertyPaulM @klaatu @freakazoid... the relation between #algorithm and #program, the relation between #language and mind...I find it depressing how many programmers with years of experience don't realize that #bug and #gigo are the exact same thing, because #code is really #data.There is a lot of work to do!But we won't free people by giving them surrogates of our (pretty primitive) #knowledge!
(DIR) Post #9hCoU01lELGiITuSNk by Shamar@mastodon.social
2019-03-27T18:33:58Z
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@codesections @galaxis @HerraBRE @dublinux @LibertyPaulM @klaatu @freakazoidWe should stop to say "it's too difficult to learn, it will take years, don't even try if you don't want to dedicate your life to computers!"THIS IS #ELITIST!Instead we should #KISS.#KeepItSimpleStupid.If we care about people, we should all throw all this crap that surround us out of the window and start building better systems from scratch, so that they are simple to understand and #hack.
(DIR) Post #9hCoU0COanm8pSswxU by Shamar@mastodon.social
2019-03-27T18:39:13Z
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@codesections @galaxis @HerraBRE @dublinux @LibertyPaulM @klaatu @freakazoidAnd there's no way we can build the solutions to this issues. There's no way that #Jehanne will become the definitive distributed operating system. There's no way that #Oberon will become the people's programming language.But we CAN explore new ways.And most importantly we can teach people to do the same!Don't give people a fish, #teach them how to fish. Only by teaching you will really #learn your craft.
(DIR) Post #9hCoU0QvilOxYXgYc4 by HerraBRE@mastodon.xyz
2019-03-27T18:42:55Z
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@Shamar @codesections @galaxis @dublinux @LibertyPaulM @klaatu @freakazoid There is room for both.Research into the future, and making what we have today less horrible.But pretending that the average Jane should just drop what they're doing and learn today's tech to gain freedom on today's Internet... that's neither realistic nor reasonable, except for a tiny minority of privileged people.
(DIR) Post #9hCoU0cyzx2i9vKBOq by dublinux@mastodon.technology
2019-03-27T18:57:32Z
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@HerraBRE I think I agree more with @Shamar on the idea of the average user's ability. Sure, currently 90% of web-users are consumers and don't have the skills to be truly independent on the interweb; but I won't accept that computers and the interweb are too complicated for 90% of people to learn that independence. It is mostly down to education and lots of practice.Properly educated netizens are what will make or break the success or otherwise of the #Fediverse . Without empowered users it will fail.
(DIR) Post #9hCtVjUOBovxM2wilU by nergalur@mastodon.technology
2019-03-27T19:18:13Z
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@freakazoidThis so hard. It's the same reason most people take their car to a mechanic: that shit is intimidatingly complicated and gives people anxiety to even think about dealing with.Yes it's liberating to learn the DIY shit, but not everyone has the time to do so. That's why society is built on a division of labor.@dublinux @LibertyPaulM @Shamar @HerraBRE
(DIR) Post #9hCtVlfS5eyI6w8aHo by dublinux@mastodon.technology
2019-03-27T19:27:22Z
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@nergalur You say not everyone has the time to learn. And yet above 85% literacy in reading and writing has been achieved in societies that did not have the vastly powerful communication technologies we have today. If schools liberally sprinkled proper I.T. studies throughout 12 years of education then similar rates of I.T. literacy could be achieved.Most people will be more likely to be consumers than to self-host but at least it will be more of a choice based on knowledge than one based on ignorance.
(DIR) Post #9hCtVmWctxVQlr13AW by alcinnz@floss.social
2019-03-27T19:32:48Z
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@dublinux @nergalur And please! Teach it from the first principles like Turing Completeness.That's significantly lacking.
(DIR) Post #9hCtVn4IskRcSIlwf2 by freakazoid@retro.social
2019-03-27T20:05:02Z
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@alcinnz @nergalur @dublinux I think we need to teach programming as a generic thing instead of as specific programming languages, but hard no on starting with concepts like Turing completeness. We need to be teaching programming to kids before they can grasp concepts like the halting problem.
(DIR) Post #9hCtVnGi8cMx4mZr04 by freakazoid@retro.social
2019-03-27T20:07:33Z
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@dublinux @nergalur @alcinnz I'm teaching my 7 year old programming with Scratch and right now it's about sprites moving around the screen and interacting with one another. I'm making sure my explanations are applicable to programming generally, but I'm definitely not going into theory or too deep into how things work under the hood.Also I've known what Turing completeness was since high school, but I've literally never needed it for anything.
(DIR) Post #9hD3g4y6BUwePOPmNM by nergalur@mastodon.technology
2019-03-27T19:23:15Z
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@freakazoid @dublinux @LibertyPaulM @Shamar @HerraBRESo instead of harassing users to learn our archaic, complicated magic fuckery, those who care about tech autonomy need to organize politically alongside tech workers to chart a path collectively for software freedom that isn't elitist, but inclusive.We need to work on making community self-hosted tech accessible in the same way we should fight for public transit, education or healthcare
(DIR) Post #9hD3g5SENT31uqVqLI by Shamar@mastodon.social
2019-03-27T20:29:46Z
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@nergalurFeel free to say I'm an harrasser, I don't give a shit about it as anybody who barely knows me would laugh at you.You raise an interesting point: can unions improve the state of #Informatics.The answer is "No" and it should be obvious to anyone who know anything about #unions and Informatics.1/@freakazoid @dublinux @LibertyPaulM @HerraBRE
(DIR) Post #9hD3g5uag1jVKnmUXw by Shamar@mastodon.social
2019-03-27T20:35:53Z
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@nergalur @freakazoid @dublinux @LibertyPaulM @HerraBREI'm member of a union. They protect MY economical interests. And I like this.But what reaction they would have in front of a technology that could zero my income by turning everybody to programmers?Unions have an important role in our society.But our interest as IT professionals is secondary to democracy. They can't really manage this tension.
(DIR) Post #9hD3g6OMtJYIp9iGxc by nergalur@mastodon.technology
2019-03-27T21:01:38Z
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@ShamarI'm not saying we should make everyone programmers.I'm saying those who *are* should work on projects for community self hosting, not the company they currently work for.I'm not trying to attack you here. I'm just saying when people like us tell our loved ones to leave their shitty, abusive relationship with big tech they roll their eyes because they don't have time for that shit@freakazoid @dublinux @LibertyPaulM @HerraBRE
(DIR) Post #9hD3g74uL9a0x5cFGa by nergalur@mastodon.technology
2019-03-27T21:03:44Z
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@Shamar @freakazoid @dublinux @LibertyPaulM @HerraBREEspecially if we don't have working, well maintained and professional level alternatives to migrate to
(DIR) Post #9hD3g7KrNqL9kZ4z8C by Shamar@mastodon.social
2019-03-27T21:16:42Z
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@nergalurWell, I'mnot sure that leaving my day job would help my #FreeSoftware much.You are right about alternatives.We need to build radically better alternatives (which means also radically different ones) so that people can move to them from the current crap.But such alternatives should be simple, not just easy. They should have as goal to make people think and learn, not just chat, share photos or whatnot.@freakazoid @dublinux @LibertyPaulM @HerraBRE
(DIR) Post #9hD3g7nvdlanCigCRM by nergalur@mastodon.technology
2019-03-27T21:31:24Z
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@ShamarI'm saying you should be employed by the public to produce exactly the software you just went on to describe later in your post.Also, sharing photos, chatting and learning are not exclusively separate. You can do all 3 at once.@freakazoid @LibertyPaulM @HerraBRE
(DIR) Post #9hD3g7yuyuNnknoyZM by kragen@nerdculture.de
2019-03-27T22:05:15Z
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@nergalur @Shamar @freakazoid @LibertyPaulM @HerraBRE "employ" means "use" — things are for using. People are for loving. No child is born an employee
(DIR) Post #9hD3uzSsvcazgRvPe4 by Shamar@mastodon.social
2019-03-27T22:07:59Z
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@kragenThidls post made my day. Thanks!@nergalur @freakazoid @LibertyPaulM @HerraBRE
(DIR) Post #9hD3xApZdnxXVuZwFk by Shamar@mastodon.social
2019-03-27T22:08:23Z
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@kragenThis post made my day. Thanks! 😉@nergalur @freakazoid @LibertyPaulM @HerraBRE
(DIR) Post #9hD4QIcvjawI5gYLHU by kragen@nerdculture.de
2019-03-27T22:13:38Z
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@HerraBRE @dublinux @LibertyPaulM @Shamar We need software that allows you to self-host without it being a full-time job. All kinds of random people carry Linux boxes around in their pockets nowadays to host their client apps. We need servers and P2P apps that are easier to manage.
(DIR) Post #9hD4X4lHgRB77Dgwc4 by DJWalnut@pleroma.weirdart.space
2019-03-27T22:14:53.397312Z
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@kragen @Shamar @LibertyPaulM @dublinux @HerraBRE Agreed
(DIR) Post #9hD4iNpn70IzSCBwSe by kragen@nerdculture.de
2019-03-27T22:16:54Z
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@HerraBRE @dublinux @LibertyPaulM @Shamar We laugh at how literacy was limited to the clergy in medieval Europe and monks thought Augustine was a genius because he could read without moving his lips. But have you ever tried to read a medieval manuscript? The handwriting is usually atrocious, there are no spaces between words, a quarter of the words are abbreviated, and the scribes used thousands of Tironian notes — ideographic script for Latin, but optimized for rapidity of writing.
(DIR) Post #9hD4xdS5KPRIEcNMqe by kragen@nerdculture.de
2019-03-27T22:19:40Z
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@HerraBRE @dublinux @LibertyPaulM @Shamar ALSO, though, users have to learn more. If someone is profoundly ignorant about their own body, they will always be vulnerable to unethical doctors taking advantage of them. Someone who is profoundly ignorant about finance will always be vulnerable to fraud. Similarly, if someone is profoundly ignorant about software, they will always be vulnerable to companies like Facebook and Microsoft — who aren't evil, just misaligned with users' interests.
(DIR) Post #9hD5E6DW9FRm56PeOO by foxwitch@queer.af
2019-03-27T22:21:24Z
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@DJWalnut @kragen @dublinux @HerraBRE @Shamar @LibertyPaulM I think a more community based hosting model would really be best for most. Sure if you can self host then you should, but if you can’t you should probably at least know your admin by name and be able to have a conversation with them. Corporate hosting models on the other hand are all about extracting profit and should be avoided at all costs.
(DIR) Post #9hD5IpVjgl7DiSBpy4 by DJWalnut@pleroma.weirdart.space
2019-03-27T22:23:31.160917Z
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@foxwitch @LibertyPaulM @Shamar @HerraBRE @dublinux @kragen https://sandstorm.io something like this should become popular
(DIR) Post #9hD5Wjha5Cm9koMT6e by kragen@nerdculture.de
2019-03-27T22:26:00Z
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@foxwitch @DJWalnut @dublinux @HerraBRE @Shamar @LibertyPaulM I think some procedural safeguards are also needed — as at Facebook, there should be no single person who can push out a new kernel or device driver that allows them to spy on users, including, say, users they used to sleep with, or users who are using their competitor's hardware (as in FTDIgate). The system needs to have checks and balances to prevent individuals or small corrupted groups from introducing malicious code.
(DIR) Post #9hD5fvDUdnOO4YfULQ by Shamar@mastodon.social
2019-03-27T22:27:40Z
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@kragenTotally agree.Indeed I think that this is going to be an asymptotic dance.On one hand we need to teach people #Informatics. On the other, we need to make it #simple (not necessarily easy, easiness should emerge as a byproduct of simple orthogonal abstractions that compose in infinite obvious ways).More programmers => more different ideas => more innovation => more programmers => more different ideas...@HerraBRE @dublinux @LibertyPaulM
(DIR) Post #9hD5tDnoqm3XTq08Mi by foxwitch@queer.af
2019-03-27T22:30:02Z
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@kragen @DJWalnut @dublinux @HerraBRE @Shamar @LibertyPaulM that’s a potential risk, but having the administration be as local and distributed as possible should limit the damage done by snooping. Sure Facebook might have safeguards against individual admins snooping, but they literally data mine everything and then sell the data as a service for advertising. That’s the bigger risk IMO.
(DIR) Post #9hD6PTk57dQoBPdOD2 by seasharp@crowsnest.libre.audio
2019-03-27T22:35:54.695624Z
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@foxwitch @DJWalnut @kragen @dublinux @HerraBRE @Shamar @LibertyPaulM This 1000%. I also like the idea of something like a Local Data Trust for specific communities, wherein access to APIs could be granted and used to fund community infra projects. Trust-managed data could be leveraged by any manner of apps that the community deems acceptable (The ubereats, lyft, airbnb replacements)
(DIR) Post #9hD6Rdwo9NEQPgcReK by Shamar@mastodon.social
2019-03-27T21:54:00Z
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@nergalurYes actually I agree on this.Right now, hackers should be payed through public taxes to hack whatever they feel interesting and release it under the strongest possible copyleft one could think.This way we could throw crap away faster.I would accept a fraction of my income to work on Jehanne full time for ten years.But that's not enough though.We need to teach.To learn how to teach, and teach what we learn.@freakazoid @LibertyPaulM @HerraBRE
(DIR) Post #9hD6sOvm5d9bettXrk by 361.xj9@social.sunshinegardens.org
2019-03-27T20:31:35.841902Z
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@Shamar @HerraBRE @LibertyPaulM @dublinux @freakazoid @nergalur > unionstry seizing the sweet means of production instead of begging at the feet of capitalists
(DIR) Post #9hD6sPBN9ddARHC0B6 by Shamar@mastodon.social
2019-03-27T20:46:34Z
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@xj9> means of productionYou mean... our minds? 😉Fortunately it's attached to my neck and it's very hard to remove it from there without destroying the #Capital.That's the point: we are the most powerful class out there. We own the means of production.Why still we behave as slaves, as servants to the #Pharaoh? We should free our brothers and sisters, instead!@HerraBRE @LibertyPaulM @dublinux @freakazoid @nergalur
(DIR) Post #9hD7jjWGGyhurQOMj2 by kragen@nerdculture.de
2019-03-27T22:50:46Z
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@foxwitch @DJWalnut @dublinux @HerraBRE @Shamar @LibertyPaulM I think there are people who consider that a smaller risk, and we want to get them on the system too. Lots of people have very concrete and credible worries about being spied on by individual people they know, but are okay with the more limited level of information delivered to Facebook advertisers being generally available.
(DIR) Post #9hD8CNH63ZqSGgxKeu by kragen@nerdculture.de
2019-03-27T22:55:56Z
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@seasharp @LibertyPaulM @Shamar @HerraBRE @foxwitch @dublinux @DJWalnut Do the local police get access to this locally held data?
(DIR) Post #9hD8LNC5j5OYckuDKK by foxwitch@queer.af
2019-03-27T22:57:33Z
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@kragen @seasharp @LibertyPaulM @Shamar @HerraBRE @dublinux @DJWalnut I guess it depends on where you are, but in the US I sure as hell hope not or at the very least they better have a warrant signed by a judge in the proper jurisdiction.
(DIR) Post #9hD8OERohY90Mmclua by kragen@nerdculture.de
2019-03-27T22:58:05Z
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@seasharp @LibertyPaulM @Shamar @HerraBRE @foxwitch @dublinux @DJWalnut Because here in Buenos Aires, Lyft is illegal, and so would a locally-organized replacement for it be. (Locally-organized UberEats replacements Rappi and Glovo are apparently legal.) Historically the police abused local data about who associated with whom to illegally kidnap and murder somewhat more than 10,000 political dissidents in the 1970s
(DIR) Post #9hD8RInKzmFmiY9dpo by foxwitch@queer.af
2019-03-27T22:58:38Z
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@kragen @DJWalnut @dublinux @HerraBRE @Shamar @LibertyPaulM In that case perhaps being hosted by a surrounding community or a group specifically looking to protect people in situations like this might be an option
(DIR) Post #9hD8UT1zOSQvKkW6sq by kragen@nerdculture.de
2019-03-27T22:59:13Z
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@foxwitch @seasharp @LibertyPaulM @Shamar @HerraBRE @dublinux @DJWalnut We need to figure out how to make sure users of our decentralized systems are at least as well protected from local police as the users of Fecebutt
(DIR) Post #9hD9SZITE5Xa8qsss4 by foxwitch@queer.af
2019-03-27T23:10:02Z
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@kragen @seasharp @LibertyPaulM @Shamar @HerraBRE @dublinux @DJWalnut It’ll need to be a mix of encryption and minimal logging to limit what can even be disclosed and tbh admins willing to go to jail to protect their communities. Btw in the US law enforcement in some cases has backdoor access to Facebook data, it’s not really private at all.
(DIR) Post #9hDktBuTyzjjjPDpOS by VeintePesos@witches.live
2019-03-28T06:09:28Z
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@kragen @HerraBRE @dublinux @LibertyPaulM @Shamar aren’t evil? that’s a long stretch
(DIR) Post #9hF3ZfmbIbVksMtyHA by adfeno@ecodigital.social
2019-03-28T20:51:26Z
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@Shamar @nergalur @freakazoid @LibertyPaulM @HerraBRE I agree on fostering strongest auto upgradable #copyleft licensed projects to better both teaching, infrastructure maintaining and other things. But also worry about people duplicating efforts. Perhaps the government could have a directory of granted projects, forbidding duplicatas to apply for funding.
(DIR) Post #9hF3ZfziVq0FX32Rii by Shamar@mastodon.social
2019-03-28T21:08:13Z
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@adfenoI'm in favour of duplication because it's never a simple copy, and we need to explore new ways more than everything.To me the shame on forkers is an evidence of an environment that is hostile to hackers despite rhetoric of being friendly and so on.Hackers fork.Duplication of effort means resilience (more people able to do X) and this is a good thing.@nergalur @freakazoid @LibertyPaulM @HerraBRE
(DIR) Post #9opnk2fIbPJQ6lKaem by gemlog@mastodonten.de
2019-03-28T08:18:55Z
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@klaatu @dublinux @LibertyPaulM@linuxrocks.online @Shamar Well said. I really despise being called a 'computer genius'. It took many thousands of hours and a lot pounding my head on the desk to learn what I know.