Post 3177424 by alcinnz@floss.social
(DIR) More posts by alcinnz@floss.social
(DIR) Post #3172713 by brainblasted@social.libre.fi
2019-01-20T04:04:03.877309Z
2 likes, 1 repeats
I wonder, could I go a whole month without opening my terminal for reasons other than development?Users on Windows and macOS go the entire lifetimes without opening their respective shells. How long could the average person do that on Linux?Are we at the point where the average person never needs to open a terminal? If not, how can we get there?
(DIR) Post #3172781 by calvin@cronk.stenoweb.net
2019-01-20T04:06:29Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@brainblasted i think karen sandler tried this a few years ago, i can't remember where it was posted tho
(DIR) Post #3173023 by alcinnz@floss.social
2019-01-20T04:16:34Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@brainblasted I'm in the same boat here!
(DIR) Post #3173159 by hansbauer@fosstodon.org
2019-01-20T04:21:50Z
2 likes, 4 repeats
@brainblastedfrom my experience installing linux distros for family and friends (windows users), i can say that it is possible. they've never needed to open the terminal. some worked flawlessly three years without maintenance, just normal updates through ui. needless to say, they don't want to go back to windows.
(DIR) Post #3173205 by Rude@pl.kys.moe
2019-01-20T04:23:27.645937Z
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@hansbauer @brainblasted If they just browse the web its fine. Anything else involves knowing more than button pushing.
(DIR) Post #3173374 by mprv@scholar.social
2019-01-20T04:29:06Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@hansbauerSame here, I've installed Linux a few times on my friends' machines and almost all of them are non-tech people. The most common distro I go for is Manjaro, followed by xubuntu, and I've had a few people choose elementary. Honorable mention to my mom, who uses xubuntu and was born right after Italy stopped being a monarchy 😄@brainblasted
(DIR) Post #3173435 by teleclimber@social.tchncs.de
2019-01-20T04:29:41Z
1 likes, 1 repeats
@brainblasted should be possible so long as:- your hardware is fully supported by the distro and you never change it- you never try to install software from outside package manager or snapThat could cover most users.
(DIR) Post #3173478 by brainblasted@social.libre.fi
2019-01-20T04:22:58.873011Z
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@hansbauer nice! What distros do they run?
(DIR) Post #3173479 by hansbauer@fosstodon.org
2019-01-20T04:31:50Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@brainblastedusually i know how they use the pc, and make a suggestion, they always accept. they mostly had a good experience with ubuntu gnome (when unity was the default) and the newer versions of ubuntu. i've already tried mint, but the aesthetics was not really appealing for them. in my waiting list is elementary, but i feel it needs to mature. the most important thing was a coherent ui along the programs, otherwise they felt lost.
(DIR) Post #3173653 by hansbauer@fosstodon.org
2019-01-20T04:37:13Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@Rudenot really... they use gimp, libreoffice, simple scan, ghostwriter, love syncthing, love pandoc shortcuts in nautilus, krita, some installed programs that I've never used before... it is surprising sometimes. as soon as they get that it is not windows and the things work differently, they start to try new programs and new workflows. a good thing to do is to show them how to use alternativeto.net too.@brainblasted
(DIR) Post #3173969 by elomatreb@social.elomatreb.eu
2019-01-20T04:27:38.322947Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@brainblasted I installed Manjaro Xfce on the netbooks of my parents and they're very happy with it, use it mainly for web browsing and watching movies
(DIR) Post #3174786 by brainblasted@social.libre.fi
2019-01-20T05:08:51.911492Z
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@mprv @hansbauer I've only had one experience with installing a distro for someone else, and I chose Fedora due their close relationship with GNOME (that way fixes on our end will actually reach him). So far he seems to appreciate it, and I'll be checking in with him tomorrow probably.
(DIR) Post #3174787 by hansbauer@fosstodon.org
2019-01-20T05:13:45Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@brainblastedi've tested fedora for the average user use case, but i got issues with non-free drivers. i couldn't really watch videos in the web browser and some other minor issues. i know it is solvable and all, but i wasn't testing for me, and saw that as a possible source of problems and ditched the idea.@mprv
(DIR) Post #3175082 by brainblasted@social.libre.fi
2019-01-20T05:15:12.507212Z
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@hansbauer @mprv videos in the browser is the one thing he brought up when I asked.
(DIR) Post #3175083 by hansbauer@fosstodon.org
2019-01-20T05:21:43Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@brainblastedit is a common one. another common one, is multiple displays. some have to do presentations and have to plug into a projector. then comes a whole lot of issues with hybrid graphic drivers and what not. but i don't know if this is present on fedora. it might be for some.@mprv
(DIR) Post #3175390 by alcinnz@floss.social
2019-01-20T05:30:36Z
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@brainblasted @hansbauer @mprv If he's not refering to Netflix, etc (but rather YouTube, etc) by that I find GNOME Web, et al does a superb job with videos.I'd argue now the best job as there's hardly a video format we don't support, but there's no DRM support. Which could conceivably put some people off.
(DIR) Post #3175563 by brainblasted@social.libre.fi
2019-01-20T05:22:56.591913Z
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@hansbauer @mprv in my experience, multiple displays and projection work great on Wayland + GNOME, which is what Fedora defaults to.
(DIR) Post #3175564 by hansbauer@fosstodon.org
2019-01-20T05:38:11Z
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@brainblastedoh yes, in my experience they work pretty well. i was just speculating about an issue related to free drivers (possibly nouveau). i don't know exactly how fedora might react oob, for example, on notebooks with strange hybrid graphics subsystems. the video problem was enough for me to ditch fedora, but another thing that i would test would be this: how well the default installed drivers would work with multiple displays.
(DIR) Post #3175635 by hansbauer@fosstodon.org
2019-01-20T05:41:12Z
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@alcinnzthe problem was more driver related, i think. all the graphics was being processed by the normal processor, including video decoding.@brainblasted @mprv
(DIR) Post #3176216 by hansbauer@fosstodon.org
2019-01-20T06:02:03Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@alcinnzjust as a curiosity: i had a funny remark from an ex macos user once (and i had to agree). she thought the browser was buggy as she went in and out full screen on the web browser, because the way it behaves on linux. it is not smooth, looks like the browser is crashing, it is not animated, looks ugly, she was afraid the pc would crash, and a lot more.@brainblasted @mprv
(DIR) Post #3177312 by alcinnz@floss.social
2019-01-20T06:42:08Z
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@hansbauer @brainblasted @mprv In these browsers I'm thinking of (I don't know how it compares to yours), the decoding is usually split between the CPU (heavily optimized code) and to a lesser extent GPU. It is fairly easy to add codecs for more specialized hardware, but I don't know to what extent those have been implemented.To be specific I'm thinking of GNOME Web, Midori, Ephemeral, my own Odysseus, etc which all utilize WebKitGTK and GStreamer for displaying videos.
(DIR) Post #3177424 by alcinnz@floss.social
2019-01-20T06:45:32Z
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@hansbauer @brainblasted @mprv I'd classify this as mostly an issue with the window manager, though the browser can make it look even smoother if the window manager lets it.Now I'm tempted to see if elementary OS has the animation...
(DIR) Post #3177554 by gemlog@mastodonten.de
2019-01-20T06:51:11Z
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@hansbauer @brainblasted That's been true for over ten years now. The only fight now is with some weird EFI (don't get me started) bios, but you will eventually win :-)
(DIR) Post #3177812 by hansbauer@fosstodon.org
2019-01-20T07:02:24Z
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@alcinnzi might be. i can't directly pinpoint the main culprit here because i lack the knowledge about the components involved. but it would be good to have some smoothness in the in and out procedures and maybe some going to and coming out from dark to the rest of the browser canvas while at it.@brainblasted @mprv
(DIR) Post #3177842 by hansbauer@fosstodon.org
2019-01-20T07:03:56Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@gemlogthe hybrid graphics on some notebooks is still a main source of problems too. @brainblasted
(DIR) Post #3177890 by gemlog@mastodonten.de
2019-01-20T07:06:06Z
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@hansbauer @brainblasted that may well be. I haven't run across them myself yet, but that is a perennial problem for linux: new hardware.The manufacturers only care about Apple and Microsoft (in general).
(DIR) Post #3177962 by gemlog@mastodonten.de
2019-01-20T07:09:07Z
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@hansbauer @brainblasted Sorry, the main question/argument.Yes. Users can go decades without opening a terminal or typing a damn thing if you set them up properly.You know - like ms windows or apple does for its users...
(DIR) Post #3178035 by hansbauer@fosstodon.org
2019-01-20T07:13:08Z
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@gemlogit is not even that new... nvidia optimus is already 9 years in the market, i think. but that's more a nvidia problem, than a linux problem. i don't know how well the hybrid graphics from amd works.@brainblasted
(DIR) Post #3178209 by gemlog@mastodonten.de
2019-01-20T07:18:57Z
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@hansbauer @brainblasted Sorry, it is the case that keeping up with the new actual versions and also firmware versions is very difficult.In a sense, that was the thrust of my original post.Again, sorry that I wasn't clear enough in what I wrote.gem
(DIR) Post #3178501 by hansbauer@fosstodon.org
2019-01-20T07:29:15Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@alcinnznormally it is used something like vaapi or vdpau to do the decoding. vaapi is used for intel integrated graphics and amd (integrated or discrete) and vdpau for nvidia (i might be wrong). these depend on the actual driver (intel, radeon, amdgpu, nvidia or nouveau). if all this works, there is still mesa to configure to use them and the actual browser. so it depends on the defaults of the distro on each part of this mess.@brainblasted @mprv
(DIR) Post #3178599 by hansbauer@fosstodon.org
2019-01-20T07:32:48Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@alcinnz @brainblasted @mprvif there is no support for vaapi or vdpau, the whole processing will fall onto the processor without many of the specialized instruction sets (like the intel clear video or quicksync, for actual video decoding).
(DIR) Post #3178814 by hansbauer@fosstodon.org
2019-01-20T07:39:48Z
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@gemlogohh no problem. you are right in what you are saying. some manufacturers like intel and amd are really quick to contribute. but nvidia seems to have no interest in going open. in this case keeping up with drivers and firmwares in all the different distros become a really hard thing.@brainblasted
(DIR) Post #3180823 by hirojin@dev.glitch.social
2019-01-20T09:01:12Z
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@calvin @brainblasted i honestly think my main issue is that i have so gotten used to navigating the Filesystem thru the terminalso I'll be copying / moving files, and starting my editing process, which 90% of the time will be emacs or vimcome to think of it90% of the time i spend on my laptop *is* development time. all my other "computing" (reading stuff on the Internet) are done on the phone
(DIR) Post #3181617 by mjog@octodon.social
2019-01-20T06:03:44Z
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@brainblasted I wonder if you'll start having to reboot a more, as much as typical win/osx using peeps?
(DIR) Post #3181618 by brainblasted@social.libre.fi
2019-01-20T06:23:10.797007Z
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@mjog I've definitely been rebooting more since I started using GNOME Software to handle system updates.
(DIR) Post #3181619 by maryjane@social.coletivos.org
2019-01-20T09:24:55Z
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@brainblastedI also evoid using a terminal when installing linux for friends, and when explaining how stuff works to them. And they usually get along with. As for me i need a terminal :p@mjog
(DIR) Post #3183299 by juh@chaos.social
2019-01-20T10:38:44Z
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@brainblasted I hope we never get there. CLI rules!
(DIR) Post #3183300 by clacke@libranet.de
2019-01-20T10:41:03Z
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@juh @brainblasted Being able to choose the UI paradigm that works for your purposes rules.
(DIR) Post #3186723 by cbowdon@linuxrocks.online
2019-01-20T13:00:21Z
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@brainblasted Pretty sure you can do this with many distros (Ubuntu, Mint, openSUSE) but it’s just the path less travelled so there’s not a lot of guidance.
(DIR) Post #3188926 by calvin@cronk.stenoweb.net
2019-01-20T14:53:56Z
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@brainblasted ah, i found where i heard it, though maybe there's an article about it toohttps://usesthis.com/interviews/karen.sandler/(also, an interviewee who doesn't use a mac, extremely rare on usesthis)
(DIR) Post #3194331 by leadore@toot.cafe
2019-01-20T17:55:36Z
0 likes, 2 repeats
@brainblasted (2/2)He did everything himself (we live in different states) I just answered some ?'s and occasionally (rarely) helped over the phone. He's happy with it and has made some great videos. We are both using Mint these days.
(DIR) Post #3194337 by leadore@toot.cafe
2019-01-20T17:53:44Z
0 likes, 2 repeats
@brainblasted I don't think my brother ever opens the terminal & he's used Linux for years. Back in Win XP days he was always calling me with problems. His friend convinced him to get a Mac to solve it. Within a couple months he regretted that & was complaining even more. I was obvs. hesitant to suggest linux, but he was willing to try it & installed Ubuntu (pre-Unity days). (1/2)
(DIR) Post #3199796 by leadore@toot.cafe
2019-01-20T22:09:50Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@brainblasted Well ok, looks like I have to amend my previous statement a bit. 😳 I asked my brother and just got his reply. He said he does use the terminal because he uses youtube-dl fairly often. He said he used it for something else recently too, but usually just for that. So I stand corrected! 😊 Sometimes the terminal is the best way even for non-tech users. :)
(DIR) Post #3199817 by cod3monk3y@housecat.dog
2019-01-20T08:11:34.151660Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@brainblasted i have the more radical opinion that our tech should stop treating everyone like they are babies, and instead we should teach our society to be more digitally literate.it is not uncommon for older people to say oh i used so and so language to do basically excel or data entry for their job. we have just come to expect that if a 5 year old cant use it, then it is bad ui
(DIR) Post #3400489 by freakazoid@retro.social
2019-01-25T23:19:43Z
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@brainblasted I don't think this is a desirable goal in itself. There's too much power in the command line that simply doesn't exist in GUI form. Mac and Windows users simply forego that power.
(DIR) Post #3400490 by brainblasted@social.libre.fi
2019-01-25T23:30:22.028003Z
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@freakazoid there certainly is power, but not everyone feels comfortable using that power. I think it's desirable to make the command line an optional tool rather than mandatory for usage.Mac and Windows both have powerful command line environments, but the regular user does not need to use them.
(DIR) Post #3400491 by freakazoid@retro.social
2019-01-26T17:31:22Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@brainblasted I think the problem is that the command line has too steep a learning curve. I think it could be made much friendlier. In particular, it should be more like an IDE, not an interactive program running in a terminal. I'm thinking something along the lines of Smalltalk.
(DIR) Post #3400492 by freakazoid@retro.social
2019-01-26T17:34:00Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@brainblasted The fundamental mistake we made, as I see it, is thinking that powerful things are fundamentally hard and intimidating, so therefore we should make simplified alternatives. Steve Jobs epitomized that "consumers are stupid" way of thinking. And unfortunately Microsoft has mostly copied them. There's PowerShell, which has an IDE, but MS is still pretty far from making that the actual "shell", and I doubt they intend to.
(DIR) Post #3400737 by alrs@lsngl.us
2019-01-26T17:56:58Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@freakazoid @brainblasted I quit my computer information systems major in college because I could not get my head around Smalltalk. Retreated to my dorm to continue being a Linux hobbiest (1997). Please, God, subject no one to that.
(DIR) Post #3402100 by freakazoid@retro.social
2019-01-26T18:48:04Z
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@alrs @brainblasted Smalltalk is used for kids, so your experience would seem to be an extreme outlier.
(DIR) Post #3402315 by alrs@lsngl.us
2019-01-26T18:57:40Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@freakazoid @brainblasted when I was in 6th grade (1986) I knew BASIC and LOGO (which is a LISP) well enough that the school drove in teachers from across town to have me teach them how to teach LOGO. I've saved my IBM VisualAge Smalltalk manual to show anyone who's read how great Smalltalk was how actually awful Smalltalk was.
(DIR) Post #3402351 by freakazoid@retro.social
2019-01-26T18:58:57Z
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@alrs @brainblasted It doesn't surprise me at all that IBM would build a terrible Smalltalk.
(DIR) Post #3402368 by alrs@lsngl.us
2019-01-26T18:59:37Z
2 likes, 1 repeats
@freakazoid @brainblasted I would absolutely put kids in a terminal, and teach them Python without ever mentioning the poorly-bolted-on OO part.
(DIR) Post #3402422 by freakazoid@retro.social
2019-01-26T19:00:31Z
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@alrs @brainblasted Right now, Python will be my choice for my kids as well. But that's their privilege.
(DIR) Post #3402449 by alrs@lsngl.us
2019-01-26T19:01:40Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@freakazoid @brainblasted With a $20 Bluetooth keyboard, any functioning Android phone of the last 5 years, and an installation of Termux you can have a Python development environment.
(DIR) Post #3402700 by louisoft01@the.hedgehoghunter.club
2019-01-26T19:11:42.686939Z
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@alrs @brainblasted @freakazoid I learnt linux termnial back when I was 12 and used ubuntu, it's not that hard
(DIR) Post #3403685 by freakazoid@retro.social
2019-01-26T19:47:43Z
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@alrs @brainblasted Oh, I missed the "poorly-bolted-on OO part". This is not an accurate description of Python, certainly not 3.0+. It also partially explains your aversion to Smalltalk. It is not really indicative of what other users are going to experience.
(DIR) Post #3403732 by freakazoid@retro.social
2019-01-26T19:49:52Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@louisoft01 @alrs @brainblasted And yet even people who know it think that preventing people from having to use it is a desirable goal.
(DIR) Post #3403742 by freakazoid@retro.social
2019-01-26T19:50:30Z
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@alrs @brainblasted Not sure why you'd go to those lengths just to subject yourself to Android, though.
(DIR) Post #3403753 by louisoft01@the.hedgehoghunter.club
2019-01-26T19:50:49.642415Z
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@freakazoid @brainblasted @alrs Why would anyone want to thawt linux apart from microsoft. It's better for privacy and freedom.
(DIR) Post #3403821 by alrs@lsngl.us
2019-01-26T19:54:36Z
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@freakazoid @brainblasted OO is fine, OO in Python is not a thing of beauty.
(DIR) Post #3403893 by alrs@lsngl.us
2019-01-26T19:57:41Z
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@brainblasted Forgotten, in all of this, is that children show up to school today not knowing how to use a mouse, because they've never touched one. Programmers are going to live in terminals, artists are going to have Wacom tablets, and users are going to have touch interfaces. The mouse is going to be a 20th century artifact for old people.
(DIR) Post #3404204 by freakazoid@retro.social
2019-01-26T20:10:12Z
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@alrs @brainblasted Nowhere is OO a thing of beauty, except maybe Eiffel and E-like languages. It's a fairly limited model of computation.
(DIR) Post #3404214 by freakazoid@retro.social
2019-01-26T20:09:21Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@louisoft01 @alrs @brainblasted Sorry, my response was too brief. I mean the terminal, not Linux.