Post 2597975 by GwenfarsGarden@sunbeam.city
(DIR) More posts by GwenfarsGarden@sunbeam.city
(DIR) Post #2558815 by fitheach@mstdn.io
2019-01-02T22:11:32Z
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I've just noticed that HM Revenue & Customs will be *requiring* VAT returns be made using 3rd party software, from April 2019 onwards.Looks like all the suppliers are commercial & closed source.So, to make payments to the government, VAT registered businesses will have buy software.
(DIR) Post #2558846 by fitheach@mstdn.io
2019-01-02T22:13:02Z
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More info and the list of software suppliers:https://www.gov.uk/guidance/software-for-sending-income-tax-updates
(DIR) Post #2558970 by vfrmedia@social.tchncs.de
2019-01-02T22:17:46Z
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@fitheach all the usual ones then. When I first started in my current job I had to run the Finance department as well as IT and thus select suitable accounting software. I was using a semi open source package from the Netherlands but when the business expanded my colleagues were frightened by the RDP server menus in Dutch (even though the software itself did have English UI) and in the end my employers (somewhat begrudgingly) paid for Sage as it was the only half reliable one >>
(DIR) Post #2559193 by vfrmedia@social.tchncs.de
2019-01-02T22:21:48Z
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@fitheach AFAIK other than maybe customising GNUcash there isn't any easy to deploy open source solution for UK business accounting especially if the business deals with paper cheques at any point (which are still very much a thing for some people) I did look at various others in late 2000s but they were literally like having to deploy a whole ERP system rather than just basic accounting..
(DIR) Post #2559194 by fitheach@mstdn.io
2019-01-02T22:27:39Z
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@vfrmedia For VAT submission this requirement is complete overkill. The paper based VAT return only has about 8 boxes which need to be completed. There is usually a lot of work to calculate what goes into the boxes, but the submission is simple.HMRC could *easily* have their own web based submission. I know about the VAT changes because I just submitted the business corporation tax return using the HMRC web based service.
(DIR) Post #2559297 by vfrmedia@social.tchncs.de
2019-01-02T22:32:21Z
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@fitheach Healthcare is VAT exempt but at one point there was a subsidiary company which was VAT registered and I had to do these returns using the Dutch software and still managed to produce something HMRC was happy with (this was pre online days though!)Although govt IT has got way better for some things (i.e anything motoring related, and licensing radio equipment via Ofcom), it seems HMRC online forms are a bit behind (I had to use some clunky system to get an EORI number recently)
(DIR) Post #2559334 by gemlog@mastodonten.de
2019-01-02T22:33:49Z
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@fitheach That news is just sickening.A govt not even hiding how cozy it is with a corporation.That's making me very depressed.
(DIR) Post #2559517 by fitheach@mstdn.io
2019-01-02T22:40:42Z
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@vfrmedia The aforementioned HMRC web based submission for corporation tax is quite good. Prior to the introduction of the web based system their only offering was a live PDF thingie that only worked with Adobe Reader. We had to keep a Windows PC just for this requirement.Oh, and the PDF thingie was a complete dog's breakfast.
(DIR) Post #2559694 by gemlog@mastodonten.de
2019-01-02T22:47:13Z
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@fitheach @vfrmedia I didn't realize I was so blessed.I file a provincial sales tax, the federal VAT and employee deductions all on-line. No proprietary s/w involved. Even to calculate the payroll deductions. I pay corporate tax installments online as well.
(DIR) Post #2559859 by fitheach@mstdn.io
2019-01-02T22:52:51Z
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@gemlog I can't get over the cheek of it.They want to collect money from businesses and then expect you to buy software to do it. I'm flabbergasted.
(DIR) Post #2560005 by gemlog@mastodonten.de
2019-01-02T22:57:12Z
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@fitheach Totally off topic, but according to my Nana (whom I always regarded as entirely reliable) my first word was 'fabbergasted'.Yep, waited nearly 4 years and still didnt' bother with the 'ell'.
(DIR) Post #2560066 by deejoe@mastodon.sdf.org
2019-01-02T22:58:43Z
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@fitheach 😡
(DIR) Post #2560184 by fitheach@mstdn.io
2019-01-02T23:02:26Z
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@deejoe Yeah, the more I think about it the redder my face becomes.
(DIR) Post #2560198 by GwenfarsGarden@sunbeam.city
2019-01-02T23:02:28Z
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@fitheach plus it's yet another cost being externalisedOur accountants said they should be able to do this for us so we don't have to buy the damn software, but it will of course cost us. A cost that is currently only 10 mins of my time every 3 months.
(DIR) Post #2560479 by GwenfarsGarden@sunbeam.city
2019-01-02T23:10:54Z
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@fitheach @vfrmedia I don't get why we can't continue to use the website, which already works perfectly well for both VAT and Corporation tax. This change is totally unnecessary.
(DIR) Post #2560731 by lyliawisteria@enby.club
2019-01-02T23:18:45Z
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@fitheach sounds like Ancapistan
(DIR) Post #2561225 by paolo@mastodon.partecipa.digital
2019-01-02T23:34:12Z
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@fitheach I've been using HMRC web form for years and I don't see the point of forcing businesses to go through third party providers. Retirement planning for some politicians?Looking to implement HMRC specs for electronic submission through our CRM/sales platform but I don't think we'll make it for April.Any other options available? @vfrmedia
(DIR) Post #2578115 by gemlog@mastodonten.de
2019-01-02T22:59:53Z
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@fitheach @vfrmedia back on topic, I was very angry that there was only a proprietary program for working out payroll deductions on line.I wrote and maintained my own gpl version until I eventually shamed the candadian govt into releasing their own.(actually, it's only two guys in ottawa - I've talked to them ;-) )
(DIR) Post #2578116 by fitheach@mstdn.io
2019-01-03T10:15:47Z
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@gemlog Well done! Was the Canadian government software GPL as well?@vfrmedia
(DIR) Post #2578283 by fitheach@mstdn.io
2019-01-03T10:22:19Z
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@GwenfarsGarden Exactly the same here. Our current software produces the numbers, and they then have to be entered into the appropriate boxes. Ten minutes work every quarter, if that.This change will mean researching some other solution and probably buying software just to make a submission.I'm really angry about this change.
(DIR) Post #2578479 by GwenfarsGarden@sunbeam.city
2019-01-03T10:28:38Z
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@fitheach between this change, and the impact of Brexit, we will have more costs* and faffing. *our company is really just my partner working for a company in The Netherlands and I do the bookkeeping. At the moment all we have to do is enter a few figures online every quarter, taking 5 mins. Leaving the EU is going to massively complicate this. We are so angry on so many levels!
(DIR) Post #2578538 by fitheach@mstdn.io
2019-01-03T10:30:50Z
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@lyliawisteria A social experiment in anarcho-capitalism? Not sure it is that highfalutin. 😉 I suspect HMRC want to get the numbers (supplier/customer relationships too possibly) behind the calculations, but didn't want to provide the software.
(DIR) Post #2578692 by fitheach@mstdn.io
2019-01-03T10:36:03Z
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@paolo I only discovered this last night. I was feeling elated at finishing the corporation tax submission. Then I noticed this announcement and instantly felt deflated again.I don't know when this was first announced, but April isn't far off now. There are plenty of other things I should be spending my time doing, not this nonsense.@vfrmedia
(DIR) Post #2578699 by lyliawisteria@enby.club
2019-01-03T10:36:21Z
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@fitheach it's just another one of those little "snake eating its own tail" things that's seems to be a hallmark of Ayncrappers practising their broken ideas.
(DIR) Post #2578764 by fitheach@mstdn.io
2019-01-03T10:39:18Z
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@GwenfarsGarden I guess a no-deal Brexit could be a big impact for you. Have you got a trade body, or similar, that might advise?
(DIR) Post #2580921 by GwenfarsGarden@sunbeam.city
2019-01-03T11:40:22Z
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@fitheach anything that changes from current status (staying in the EU) will have a negative impact for us. We have found that our so-called trade body isn't much use. Our accountants are pretty good and they should be able to give us enough advice. Still vaguely hoping we might stay in the EU!
(DIR) Post #2583905 by fitheach@mstdn.io
2019-01-03T12:08:16Z
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@GwenfarsGarden I'm sure most accountants will be keeping abreast of the changes. Unless you are lucky your accountants will be charging for advice. Good that you are happy with your accountants.It is possible that the UK exit from the EU will be delayed. I can't see a scenario where the UK will stay in the EU. Staying in the Single Market & Customs Union is also possible (which would mitigate some problems), but the anti-immigration rhetoric is so strong I doubt that would happen.
(DIR) Post #2585997 by bob@soc.freedombone.net
2019-01-03T11:52:23.907377Z
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@fitheach This isn't my usual area of expertise but I have maintained and written accounts software in the past.What format are they using? Can something FOSS be written, rather than buying proprietary software? Maybe not in time for April, but for future.
(DIR) Post #2585998 by bob@soc.freedombone.net
2019-01-03T12:19:23.334604Z
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@fitheach Looks like it's json with OAuth, so I expect some free software can be written for this.https://developer.service.hmrc.gov.uk/api-documentation/docs/api/service/vat-api/1.0
(DIR) Post #2586350 by kline@cmpwn.com
2019-01-03T12:39:10Z
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@bob @fitheach paging @barrucadu
(DIR) Post #2589942 by barrucadu@social.lainon.life
2019-01-03T13:07:31.297571Z
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@kline @fitheach @bob I've not come across this before (government is big), but I expect the thinking higher-up in HMRC went something like this:> We spend M money and T time every year processing paper VAT formsOr however it's done.> We could reduce that to N money and U time if we didn't have to worry about errors in our processing of the forms.> Businesses use accounting software, can they just submit digitally from that?Yes, there's an assumption here.> Good idea, let's get some developers on this.Then it'll have been passed off to a team who decided that an open API like this is the only feasible way of doing it because (a) there are so many accounting software vendors, and HMRC don't want to have to closely work with all of them on this; and (b) HMRC can't really be seen to be forcing people to buy certain software to submit their VAT info.So despite the unfortunate guidance (I think it should probably link to the API docs to make it clear you can do it yourself), on the whole I think this is a positive thing.
(DIR) Post #2589943 by fitheach@mstdn.io
2019-01-03T13:18:59Z
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@barrucadu The VAT return paper forms were removed as an option for almost everyone a few years ago:https://www.gov.uk/vat-returns/send-your-returnOnline returns are the norm.My suspicions are that HMRC are wanting to know all the customer/supplier data behind the VAT return. This could be the first step in that direction.@kline @bob
(DIR) Post #2597975 by GwenfarsGarden@sunbeam.city
2019-01-03T14:43:21Z
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@fitheach we changed accountants last year because we found we were suddenly getting bills for £200 for a quick question, when they bothered to respond at all. The new accountants are a much smaller firm and so far we've found then much more reasonable. I know I just have false hopes, so if we could at least have single market & customs union, I'd consider that a win. But yeh, tiny hopes...
(DIR) Post #2598159 by gemlog@mastodonten.de
2019-01-03T14:49:43Z
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@fitheach @vfrmedia No, but the formulas are quite simple and published. https://www.canada.ca/content/dam/cra-arc/formspubs/pub/t4127-jan/t4127-01-19e.pdf So simple that it was my first or second program in python, because it was a previously solved problem for me using rexx. I didn't know for years that revenue canada tested my code twice a year - I slacked off a bit after learning that ;-)I once lost an argument (and a long day) trying to do the same with inland revenue. What a nightmare. I gave up without even getting a start...