Post 222788 by KevinMarks@xoxo.zone
(DIR) More posts by KevinMarks@xoxo.zone
(DIR) Post #222779 by bhaugen@social.coop
2018-09-20T13:55:35Z
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@KevinMarks @strypey @cwebber What would a partnership of indieweb and activitypub look like? Can they play nicely together? Or would they fight?
(DIR) Post #222780 by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2018-09-20T14:23:37Z
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@bhaugen @KevinMarks @cwebber it would look like this:https://fed.brid.gy/
(DIR) Post #222781 by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2018-09-20T14:25:18Z
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@bhaugen @KevinMarks @cwebber the main difference is that #IndieWeb (as I understand it) is designed around the idea of everyone having a self-hosted homepage, which implements a bunch of simple-as-possible protocols, allowing those homepages to form a social network. Obviously quite different from the assumptions behind AP (a federation of servers, each with one or more users, each with a web or native client) or #SSB (a #P2P network of native clients that may have intermittent net access)
(DIR) Post #222782 by neil@social.coop
2018-09-23T12:02:26Z
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@strypey @bhaugen @KevinMarks @cwebber Not an expert but I don't think it's *necessarily* (although very common) about being self-hosted, it's about owning your identity and your data. e.g. https://micro.blog provides hosted services that adhere to indieweb protocols (and principles).In some ways its closer to Hubzilla than Mastodon, IMO.The reason I mention that (and hope I'm correct in saying so) is that I think it's vital that indieweb does not expect everyone will self-host.
(DIR) Post #222783 by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2018-09-23T19:46:45Z
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@neil @bhaugen @KevinMarks @cwebber I could be wrong, but the indie.web always struck me as a very 'by developers, for developers' approach. Everything I've read about it, including all the stuff on their site, seems to be aimed at people who understand protocols and how to implement them.
(DIR) Post #222784 by bhaugen@social.coop
2018-09-23T19:59:19Z
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@strypey @neil @KevinMarks @cwebber I don't know if that is true, or if it is, if indie.web can federate with e.g. AP, what's wrong with that.Maybe Kevin Marks could take your comment as a bankshot opportunity?
(DIR) Post #222785 by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2018-09-23T20:07:03Z
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@bhaugen @neil @KevinMarks @cwebber I'm going out on a limb here, but I think the IndieWeb approach is critical of packaging nuts and bolts protocols into "standards" like AP. They would rather educate people about the underlying protocols, and encourage the simplest possible implementations, so more people might use them. This appeals to the withering remains of the punk rocker in me, but some people don't want to play noisy guitar or crashy drums, they just want to listen to it and dance ;)
(DIR) Post #222786 by KevinMarks@xoxo.zone
2018-09-23T22:52:03Z
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@strypey @bhaugen @neil @cwebber indieweb is not against standards at all; we are however wary of monoculture: https://indieweb.org/monoculturewe also tend to agree with Aaron Swartz that "standards are things you write after you’ve got something working, not before"
(DIR) Post #222787 by bhaugen@social.coop
2018-09-23T23:17:26Z
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@KevinMarks @strypey @neil @cwebber > we also tend to agree with Aaron Swartz that "standards are things you write after you’ve got something working, not before"I agree on that. Plus, we don't develop any software until we got a group of people who want to use it now. Not enuf that it works, people gotta be using it in real life.
(DIR) Post #222788 by KevinMarks@xoxo.zone
2018-09-23T23:38:44Z
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@bhaugen @strypey @neil @cwebber I think thats principles 3 and 4 https://indieweb.org/principles(and I can see how 3 could be interpreted by @strypey as engineers for engineers, but 4 is meant to counterbalance it)
(DIR) Post #222789 by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2018-09-26T14:43:38Z
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@KevinMarks @bhaugen @neil @cwebber I like principle 7:> UX before plumbing
(DIR) Post #222790 by bhaugen@social.coop
2018-09-26T15:55:41Z
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@strypey @KevinMarks @neil @cwebber > I like principle 7:>> UX before plumbingI don't. You can put a lot of user experiences on the same plumbing, but if the plumbing does not allow them to internetwork, your ability to implement collaborative UXs will be a bit limited...
(DIR) Post #222791 by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2018-09-26T18:41:11Z
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@bhaugen @KevinMarks @neil @cwebber if you start with the plumbing, you end up trying to re-engineer the user to fit what the plumbing can do. If you start with the UX, you can choose the plumbing that suits what you're trying to achieve. If the UX is served by federation, you can pick AP (or Zot or whatever serves the UX). If the UX doesn't need federation, you can pick something else that does what it needs better than AP.
(DIR) Post #222792 by bhaugen@social.coop
2018-09-26T18:48:48Z
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@strypey @KevinMarks @neil @cwebber That still says "single isolated user" to me. I am designing for communities. Here's a real-world story going on now: this cooperative, which shall remain nameless, got into an argument where different people wanted to use different apps to log their work because they liked the UX better there. The co-op pays people according to their logged work. Continued...
(DIR) Post #222793 by bhaugen@social.coop
2018-09-26T18:51:12Z
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@strypey @KevinMarks @neil @cwebber So now they need to corral all that data from all those apps in order to pay people, which happens in yet another app.And now they are trying to figure out where all the money went, because the payments are disconnected from what they paid for.Some better plumbing might save them. Or maybe could have been started with some plumbing first. Or one app. Or less fights.None of this is easy, unless you are thinking of one isolated user.
(DIR) Post #222794 by KevinMarks@xoxo.zone
2018-09-26T20:02:01Z
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@bhaugen @strypey @neil @cwebber this is the same with other companies too - there is always some effort involved in getting paid. I invoice multiple companies and log time sheets in several apps to do so, but there is the incentive of being paid. If the co-op doesn't have someone running a payroll process for them it is going to be tricky.
(DIR) Post #222795 by bhaugen@social.coop
2018-09-26T20:10:27Z
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@KevinMarks @strypey @neil @cwebber Sensorica does it as a collaborative process using a somewhat democratically decided "value equation". This could mostly be done in a P2P network.
(DIR) Post #222796 by bhaugen@social.coop
2018-09-26T20:13:09Z
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@KevinMarks @strypey @neil @cwebber They's actually like to do it using a technically P2P network, because they consider themselves to be a socially-politically-economically P2P network, just looking for the technology. (And the resources to build it...)
(DIR) Post #222797 by 361.xj9@social.sunshinegardens.org
2018-09-26T20:27:50.070340Z
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@bhaugen @cwebber @neil @strypey @KevinMarks i find it important to have concrete problems to solve. it is difficult to design systems that work well in partially connected/offline scenarios when you are jacked into the internet with fat pipes. you can't really know what the actual challenges of going off-grid are unless you are actually attempting it.#solarpunk future depends on people with minimal resources using technology, information, and a lot of moxie to sever their dependency on the global scarcity economy.
(DIR) Post #222798 by bhaugen@social.coop
2018-09-26T20:30:40Z
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@xj9 @cwebber @neil @strypey @KevinMarks xj9, I admire your moxie. I am not solar punk yet. Got enuf solar, but still grid-tied, and yes, fat pipes.But agree about concrete problems to solve.
(DIR) Post #222838 by 361.xj9@social.sunshinegardens.org
2018-09-26T20:31:52.389659Z
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@bhaugen @KevinMarks @strypey @neil @cwebber in a more general sense, the only problem you are going to solve is the one you have.
(DIR) Post #9sPmlFJNUWHtHVcqcS by cwebber@octodon.social
2018-09-23T19:49:33Z
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@strypey @neil @bhaugen @KevinMarks I'm not really interested in "by developers, for developers", because my target is not "liberate developers", it is "liberate everyone"
(DIR) Post #9sPmlIMKA1QWjW1k80 by KevinMarks@xoxo.zone
2018-09-23T21:43:19Z
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@cwebber @strypey @neil @bhaugen I don't think we disagree about goals, but about methods to some extent. Indieweb was founded after frustration with large complex federation efforts aimed at big companies, and refocusing on web-centric models that are small and simple to implement. OStatus has a lot of these complexities included (webfinger and salmon being the most egregious). https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/AccountDiscovery has some of this.
(DIR) Post #9sPmlJWznpYcMu1mOu by bhaugen@social.coop
2018-09-23T22:13:02Z
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@KevinMarks @cwebber @strypey @neil Kevin, can you federate with all of the people in this message from an indie.web place-to-stand?If not, what would it take to be able to do that?Or conversely, what would it take for eg a one-person ActivityPub (which I got) to be able to federate with you communing from an indie.web place?(Was that all clear?)
(DIR) Post #9sPmlKMOiifqwK4pWK by KevinMarks@xoxo.zone
2018-09-23T22:43:59Z
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@bhaugen @cwebber @strypey @neil http://known.kevinmarks.com/2018/i-can-reply-to-you-from-myIt should be possible for you to subscribe to an indieweb site via atom and webpub, but mastodon wants a lot of webfinger wrangling to do that.
(DIR) Post #9sPmlL0SJmiUwYooxU by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2018-09-26T15:14:58Z
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@KevinMarks @bhaugen @cwebber @neil #WebFinger isn't part of the AP spec (AFAIK). It's just something Mastodon (and Pleroma) bolt on, so people can continue to use the familiar user@domain.foo ID format, and (I assume) to maintain backwards compatibility with #OStatus.
(DIR) Post #9sPmlLYqFwDqfCuHYW by jgmac1106@mastodon.social
2018-09-26T16:39:21Z
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@strypey @KevinMarks @bhaugen @cwebber @neil I wonder if a federated system would ever beat out a decentralized vision. Mastodon instances come and go and data could be, will be, lost forever, somebody else besides you gets to decide the rules of the road.Open systems can have closed leadership that does not gel well with the idea of putting users in control of their data,
(DIR) Post #9sPmlM7aAm0mOxA1ho by bhaugen@social.coop
2018-09-26T18:32:31Z
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@jgmac1106 @strypey @KevinMarks @cwebber @neil xGreg, I am missing something.What's the diff in your mind between decentralized and federated? And what closed leadership do you have in mind in each case? For example, if we do personal activitypubs (which we are doing) and then we federate them, is that decentralized or federated?Or are you considering federation to mean only large sites with lots of members which federate with other large sites with lots of members?
(DIR) Post #9sPmlMykz4Xv3s2UaW by jgmac1106@mastodon.social
2018-09-26T18:46:04Z
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@bhaugen @strypey @KevinMarks @cwebber @neil Federated=open protocols allowing different instances to talk but still requires some central server, an admin and a bunch of users to call that admin a fascist nazi whenever they make a small change.Decentralized=open protocols all run on individual instances with no concentrated power or loss of data if someone shuts down server
(DIR) Post #9sPmlNky5p6vTOazjc by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2018-09-26T18:57:16Z
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@jgmac1106 @bhaugen @KevinMarks @cwebber @neil decentralized = no single centreSo federated *is* decentralized. What you mean is 'distributed', or pure #P2P.
(DIR) Post #9sPmlOaizOVk3uoKPI by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2018-09-26T18:59:46Z
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@jgmac1106 @bhaugen @KevinMarks @cwebber @neil the reality is, unless you engineer a protocol to be only capable of supporting single-user apps (if that's even possible), a decentralized network will have a mix of multi-user and single-user instances. It's up to each user to decide which to use. Ideally, at some point, individuals accounts will become totally portable between instances. This is already possible with Hubzilla (using Zot protocol).
(DIR) Post #9sPmlQa5ajBuEWWqh6 by neil@social.coop
2018-09-26T20:39:05Z
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@strypey @jgmac1106 @bhaugen @KevinMarks @cwebber Yes I think Hubzilla has done it nicely. With both nomadic identity, and also simply the groups idea (not original to Hubzilla ofc). For me interest groups should be decoupled from infrastructure. I'm interested in both coops and solarpunk, but I shouldn't need an account on social.coop and sunbeam.city to get the goodness of both. I want to just exist as myself, but be part of both groups. Tags don't cut it.
(DIR) Post #9sPmlUwvLlpjmVF8qG by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2020-02-26T01:59:43Z
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@neil > For me interest groups should be decoupled from infrastructure#Guppe semi-solves this problem, by allowing a group hosted by an instance like gup.pe to be followed and posted to by any user on an AP-compatible instance (in theory, I've only tested with Mastodon so far). See:https://mastodon.nzoss.nz/@strypey/103694541220464143@jgmac1106 @bhaugen @KevinMarks @cwebber
(DIR) Post #9sPmvibDSHBH0lxl1k by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2020-02-26T02:01:30Z
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The problem that remains unsolved for now is that if gup.pe itself goes away, all the groups hosted on it stop working. But each member's instance would still have copies of all the posts since they joined.@neil @jgmac1106 @bhaugen @KevinMarks @cwebber
(DIR) Post #9sPn8z2bdVVZll6EqG by jgmac1106@mastodon.social
2018-09-26T21:25:30Z
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@neil @strypey @bhaugen @KevinMarks @cwebber Yes my dream is the semi-private post where I can choose which networks of friends can see certain content.Like if I had a list of groups in my h-card and only other people who also belonged to same group would see post.
(DIR) Post #9sPn8zXnlWShKVh9Sy by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2020-02-26T02:03:20Z
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@jgmac1106 > my dream is the semi-private post where I can choose which networks of friends can see certain content.#Diaspora has always allowed this. If only somebody outside the core team would come up with a way for D* instances to inter-operate with AP apps ...@neil @bhaugen @KevinMarks
(DIR) Post #9sSmtmH1iMPNGUwUwi by jgmac1106@mastodon.social
2020-02-27T12:45:26Z
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@strypey @neil @bhaugen @KevinMarks yeah i wonder if solution for me is a mix of personal websites and ActivityPub for private or group posting