Post 1962426 by Canageek@cybre.space
(DIR) More posts by Canageek@cybre.space
(DIR) Post #1921433 by Canageek@cybre.space
2018-12-12T00:55:54Z
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I did a LOT of work trying to make sure all the "other winter holiday" questions where checked by people of that culture/religion, and when possible written by them. The other caucus members want to axe them as the mere mention of a religion might offend them.My understanding (Based on talking to Mara and others) is many non-Christians would like their holidays mentioned and are sick of "holiday" events that only mention "Christmas" Is this true? Does anyone have a statement I can quote? #plsboost
(DIR) Post #1921482 by Canageek@cybre.space
2018-12-12T00:58:50Z
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NOTE: If I am wrong and a basic question (Say, what are the colours of Kwanzaa or what is the name of a food served as Hanukkah would offend you, please let me know!)
(DIR) Post #1921524 by DialMforMara@wandering.shop
2018-12-12T01:01:12Z
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@Canageek Here is my statement, edited down significantly so I don't sound rabid.I understand that you feel uncomfortable. You now understand how people who are not Christian feel when participating in events that are clearly Christmas-oriented despite an ostensible lack of religious bias. Just because it's a generic "holiday party" doesn't mean that the decorations, the music, and the social expectations of the event are not specifically oriented toward participants who celebrate Christmas.
(DIR) Post #1921530 by Canageek@cybre.space
2018-12-12T01:01:44Z
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@DialMforMara I thought it was very well written and clear, not rapid at all.
(DIR) Post #1921531 by DialMforMara@wandering.shop
2018-12-12T01:01:32Z
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@Canageek (2/3)For most non-Christian North Americans, pressure to participate in such events can be overwhelming, and removing religion is not the solution. In fact, it is often even more alienating and othering, since the North American "secular" mainstream relies so heavily on Protestant tradition.
(DIR) Post #1921551 by DialMforMara@wandering.shop
2018-12-12T01:02:36Z
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@Canageek that's because, before I sent it to you, I took out the part that started "if you're really concerned about offending people, start by thinking about the people you've been offending for centuries by force of habit"
(DIR) Post #1921571 by Canageek@cybre.space
2018-12-12T01:04:03Z
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@DialMforMara Thank you
(DIR) Post #1921572 by DialMforMara@wandering.shop
2018-12-12T01:01:46Z
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@Canageek (3/3) The best way to alleviate these feelings of alienation is through overt representation--in the case of your trivia game, by including questions about diverse holiday traditions, instead of assuming that the world's winter celebrations are not worth a mention at a supposedly inclusive event.
(DIR) Post #1921601 by Canageek@cybre.space
2018-12-12T01:06:52Z
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Note: If you are from a non-Christian background and you agree (or disagree) with @DialMforMara 's points in that tootchain, can you let me know? Saying I posted that online and had a number of people respond to it would help me a lot.
(DIR) Post #1921609 by pericat@wandering.shop
2018-12-12T01:07:25Z
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@Canageek I think what is needed here, is caucus members who are not some flavour of Westernized Christian or were not raised in societies where such was the unquestioned norm.@DialMforMara 's statement cuts to the chase.
(DIR) Post #1921613 by Canageek@cybre.space
2018-12-12T01:07:52Z
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@pericat @DialMforMara We have some, but none of them joined the trivia committee.
(DIR) Post #1921633 by jessmahler@wandering.shop
2018-12-12T01:10:15Z
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@Canageek @DialMforMara Absolutely agree. I still have... feels... about the 'winter party' my kid's school had last year with a bingo card that included an evergreen tree, a sleigh and a snowman (no, snowman isn't inherently Christmas, but EVERYONE around my age grew up watching that Snowman Christmas movie.)
(DIR) Post #1921636 by pericat@wandering.shop
2018-12-12T01:10:17Z
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@Canageek @DialMforMara Darn. It sounds like the ones who are there are better at killing holiday spirit than boosting it.
(DIR) Post #1921643 by Canageek@cybre.space
2018-12-12T01:11:16Z
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@jessmahler Do you mind if I send that message to my Caucus and do you want your name attached?
(DIR) Post #1921644 by Canageek@cybre.space
2018-12-12T01:11:38Z
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@pericat More they are trying to be very secular and not understanding why that can be exclusive.
(DIR) Post #1921647 by jessmahler@wandering.shop
2018-12-12T01:11:59Z
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@Canageek Go right ahead.
(DIR) Post #1921678 by jessmahler@wandering.shop
2018-12-12T01:11:22Z
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@Canageek @DialMforMara I had some serious shadenfruede when the school adminstrator called the evergreen a Christmas tree, paused, looked at me, turned red, reframed it to 'yule tree' then 'holiday bush'.I suggested that 'evergreen' as a perfectly reasonable term.
(DIR) Post #1921679 by Canageek@cybre.space
2018-12-12T01:14:06Z
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@jessmahler @DialMforMara I recently learned that Yule is also a pagan/wiccan tradition celebrated on the solstice. There was a LOT of discussion about how to make that trivia question accurate to all the groups in question.
(DIR) Post #1921686 by Canageek@cybre.space
2018-12-12T01:14:28Z
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@jessmahler Should I include your name?
(DIR) Post #1921694 by pericat@wandering.shop
2018-12-12T01:15:09Z
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@Canageek Maybe if the questions you've worked up are framed as 'other cultures' holiday traditions'? The religious aspect, so far as the questions are concerned (if I remember them aright) is limited to how the holidays are named.
(DIR) Post #1921699 by jessmahler@wandering.shop
2018-12-12T01:15:15Z
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@Canageek Sure
(DIR) Post #1921709 by jessmahler@wandering.shop
2018-12-12T01:16:27Z
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@Canageek @DialMforMara My partner's family (pagan) called it Yule.Their celebration didn't involve a tree or bush.(The Christmas tree is of pagan origin, but comes from Germany, their family is from the UK.)
(DIR) Post #1921718 by Canageek@cybre.space
2018-12-12T01:18:19Z
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@pericat I think I've called it the "Holiday" Section.
(DIR) Post #1921734 by pericat@wandering.shop
2018-12-12T01:15:50Z
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@Canageek I mean, the questions don't address creeds or beliefs.
(DIR) Post #1921735 by Canageek@cybre.space
2018-12-12T01:19:24Z
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@pericat We have one: "2."What are the colors associated with Kwanzaa?" Green, Red and Black" That is also one of the very few that I've not found someone who celebrates Kwanzaa to check with.
(DIR) Post #1921736 by pericat@wandering.shop
2018-12-12T01:19:32Z
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@Canageek Honestly, it sounds like you've done your due diligence and it should be on them to support any further objections with actual facts.
(DIR) Post #1922082 by tricoteur@pouet.ca
2018-12-12T01:46:44Z
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@Canageek Well, as someone who once wasted a bunch of time researching it… there is nothing Christian about Christmas. The date was selected based on marketing arguments and politics; the people involved in the discussion had a general consensus the actual date of birth would have been around May which is still the current consensus of opinion.Which turns out not to matter. It is a good time of year to have a holiday, and has been one far longer than any existing religion. #Solstice
(DIR) Post #1922143 by Canageek@cybre.space
2018-12-12T01:49:16Z
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@tricoteur So it wouldn't make you feel more welcome, but not having it wouldn't make you feel excluded. Most of all, it wouldn't offend you either way.
(DIR) Post #1922226 by tricoteur@pouet.ca
2018-12-12T01:52:40Z
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@Canageek Pretty much. But failing to note the quintessential importance of the erratic orbit on all these cultural traditions would be disappointing.Without the wobble, the holiday just wouldn't be the holiday!
(DIR) Post #1922660 by evilscientistca@octodon.social
2018-12-12T02:14:24Z
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@Canageek @DialMforMara From a Buddhist tradition here, wholeheartedly agree with @DialMforMara
(DIR) Post #1922669 by Canageek@cybre.space
2018-12-12T02:14:47Z
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@evilscientistca @DialMforMara May I quote that, and if so, may I include your name?
(DIR) Post #1922676 by evilscientistca@octodon.social
2018-12-12T02:15:04Z
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@Canageek @DialMforMara Sure!
(DIR) Post #1922907 by Canageek@cybre.space
2018-12-12T02:25:47Z
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@tricoteur Do you mind if I quote this? (You are the only person to say that it wouldn't make you feel more included so I feel I should represent that viewpoint. Also do you mind if I mention your cultural/religious affiliation)
(DIR) Post #1923072 by tricoteur@pouet.ca
2018-12-12T02:31:51Z
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@Canageek No problem quoting me, although you might not be believed.I was raised in an Evangelical tradition, 'but I came to believe'… When forced to it, I usually identify myself as a Gaiaistic ecclectic neo-pagan. That is, I think of the earth a deity-level organism, and I have fun doing so.
(DIR) Post #1923396 by Canageek@cybre.space
2018-12-12T02:49:52Z
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@pericat DO you mind if I quote that, and mention who sent it?
(DIR) Post #1923486 by pericat@wandering.shop
2018-12-12T02:55:08Z
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@Canageek help yourself. :)
(DIR) Post #1923659 by gemlog@mastodonten.de
2018-12-12T03:06:09Z
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@Canageek I'm sick of 'christmas' by about November 1. It's the next corporate festival for 'consumers' after halloween. I especially hate the same tunes over and over and over - you can't escape them.There is nothing Christ Mass-y about cocacola santa claus and going in debt to outspend. I could use some legit advent themes or more Dawali and Hannakuh et al. in my life.Psst! Spammers with 'on the Xth day of christmas' spam: The first day of Christmas is December 25th!https://youtu.be/Rr8ljRgcJNM?t=132
(DIR) Post #1923714 by Canageek@cybre.space
2018-12-12T03:08:59Z
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@gemlog I've actually been pretty hyped this year: Since I've been working from home a lot and working at university I've not seen much xmas stuff at all yet. Even the youtube ads are mostly not xmas themed, except for the Soda stream.
(DIR) Post #1938493 by Canageek@cybre.space
2018-12-12T19:58:02Z
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@pericat Hey. Would you be willing to look over a specific question about the trivia from yesterday and let me know if I'm risking offending you or anyone you know this way? https://cybre.space/@Canageek/101229784882772006
(DIR) Post #1938500 by Canageek@cybre.space
2018-12-12T19:58:05Z
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@tricoteur Hey. Would you be willing to look over a specific question about the trivia from yesterday and let me know if I'm risking offending you or anyone you know this way? https://cybre.space/@Canageek/101229784882772006
(DIR) Post #1938502 by Canageek@cybre.space
2018-12-12T19:58:13Z
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@evilscientistca @DialMforMara Hey. Would you be willing to look over a specific question about the trivia from yesterday and let me know if I'm risking offending you or anyone you know this way? https://cybre.space/@Canageek/101229784882772006
(DIR) Post #1938697 by Canageek@cybre.space
2018-12-12T20:05:18Z
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@pericat Also, I'd like to reduce the number of questions about Christian traditions, so if you wanted to suggest a Buddhist question about anything related to winter or December I'd be very happy.
(DIR) Post #1938708 by Canageek@cybre.space
2018-12-12T20:05:44Z
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@evilscientistca Also, I'd like to reduce the number of questions about Christian traditions, so if you wanted to suggest a Buddhist question about anything related to winter or December I'd be very happy.
(DIR) Post #1938789 by tricoteur@pouet.ca
2018-12-12T20:08:43Z
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@Canageek Sure, I would be happy to look things over. I did not see any specific questions at that link?
(DIR) Post #1938812 by Canageek@cybre.space
2018-12-12T20:09:46Z
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@tricoteur They should be formatted as replies to it.
(DIR) Post #1939124 by tricoteur@pouet.ca
2018-12-12T20:23:48Z
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@Canageek Nope, not finding all the questions I saw yesterday as responses, but I did find 3 repeats of a single response, which corresponds with the three I saw yesterday listing the questions.Maybe you could throw the list on something like write.as ? Also, I was just looking at the Budhist, Ethiopic/Coptic, and Persian calendars.
(DIR) Post #1939177 by Canageek@cybre.space
2018-12-12T20:25:47Z
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@tricoteur I mean, the question is would having this trivia w/ that question breakdown make you feel marginalized, sorry, not about a specific trivia question.
(DIR) Post #1939244 by tricoteur@pouet.ca
2018-12-12T20:28:08Z
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@Canageek Ah! Mmm, not for that reason, no. I know some people might be bothered by the heavy weight to judeo-christian-islam, but since my own views are never represented it doesn't bother me that way.
(DIR) Post #1939265 by Canageek@cybre.space
2018-12-12T20:29:19Z
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@tricoteur There is a question about the date of the solstice. Which is fairly lame I know, but what the pagans and wiccans I asked thought would be general enough to represent all holiday groups)
(DIR) Post #1939304 by Canageek@cybre.space
2018-12-12T20:30:24Z
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@tricoteur ...all pagan groups. The question SAYS wiccan, but only as they agreed there are some pagan groups with more then one holy event in Dec, so if we included pagan. Would it be more inclusive if I added wordage to the effect "also celebrated by many pagan groups"?
(DIR) Post #1939796 by tricoteur@pouet.ca
2018-12-12T20:52:22Z
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@Canageek No worries! I appreciate the question about Solstice, since pretty much everything we know about time is originally based on determining that and the Equinoxes. But keeping in mind that Pagan meant rural folk and was really a euphemism for 'hicks who are not judeo-christian monotheists' (Mohammad had not yet been born) it is a rather broad term. It's like saying non-BC Liberal voters, or non-UBC grad students. Non-agrarian humans. Ooo, this could be a new fun game.
(DIR) Post #1939824 by Canageek@cybre.space
2018-12-12T20:54:05Z
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@tricoteur Right, but several of the people who responded self-identifies as Pagan or Neo-Pagan, so....
(DIR) Post #1939954 by tricoteur@pouet.ca
2018-12-12T21:00:30Z
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@Canageek Neo- is new, so a hyponym of pagan. Therefore FSM is neopagan, as is formal atheism/humanism. While that pairing could make for a great night out at a whiskey bar, I expect they would have very different reactions to the inclusivity or not of your trivia question.
(DIR) Post #1939993 by Canageek@cybre.space
2018-12-12T21:01:22Z
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@tricoteur Ah. So is there a problem with the wording: 4.What is the name and date of the Wiccan (also celebrated by many Pagan and Neo-Pagan groups) holy day in December? (Winter Solstice or Yule, December 21, 1 pt each)
(DIR) Post #1940239 by tricoteur@pouet.ca
2018-12-12T21:11:21Z
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@Canageek Mmm, I am a word geek, so maybe overthinking everything, but I suspect you could get a lot more legitimate answers than the 2 given. You could simplify it as "What is the name and date of the Wiccan celebration in December?" It is *usually* the 21st, can be the 22nd and, iirc, 20th.Midwinter, Yule, Yuletide, Winter Solstice, Brumalia, Mōdraniht… I think that covers the most popular Anglo-Saxon traditions. There may be Gaelic terms as well.
(DIR) Post #1940292 by Canageek@cybre.space
2018-12-12T21:15:41Z
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@tricoteur that's why we originally only included Wiccan, which apparently it's always the 21st for.
(DIR) Post #1940327 by tricoteur@pouet.ca
2018-12-12T21:18:35Z
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@Canageek Really? how weirdly civil calendarish of them. <shrug> Wasn't the case for the folk I knew; they picked Saturdays closest to the event (full moon, quarters, cross-quarters...)
(DIR) Post #1940331 by Canageek@cybre.space
2018-12-12T21:18:43Z
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@tricoteur that's why I said it's a Wiccan holiday that it's also celebrated by some pagan groups
(DIR) Post #1940356 by Canageek@cybre.space
2018-12-12T21:20:12Z
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@tricoteur *Shrug* I had two people check it. I think I will drop the date part of it and just go with the name then
(DIR) Post #1940382 by tricoteur@pouet.ca
2018-12-12T21:22:46Z
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@Canageek <nods> I would still drop 'other pagans' section, mostly because you don't want to get into the arguments of, for example, Ethiopic vs Orthodox vs Roman vs Reformation christian dates, either. The same kinds of arguments between some varieties of non-christians.
(DIR) Post #1940533 by pericat@wandering.shop
2018-12-12T21:30:32Z
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@Canageek I read the questions thread a day or two ago when you were working out the questions, and didn't see anything that seemed questionable to me; but then, I don't fall into any of the groups you were concerned about so my POV is not relevant.On Buddhist holidays... there are a number of sects, and 'holidaying' is not really a big thing; I mean, I celebrate holidays, but it's not because Buddhist, if you get my meaning. There's Vesak, but it isn't winter. BUT (1/ 2)
(DIR) Post #1940723 by Canageek@cybre.space
2018-12-12T21:40:08Z
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@tricoteur okay, that brings it back to the original wording. I just didn't want to make non Wiccan pagan feel excluded.
(DIR) Post #1940740 by pericat@wandering.shop
2018-12-12T21:32:19Z
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@Canageek if you look on the internet for 'buddhist holidays) you will find a number of festivals celebrated in Asian countries where the population identifies as Buddhist, and which are some of them located within a particular Buddhist tradition. (2/2)
(DIR) Post #1940742 by Canageek@cybre.space
2018-12-12T21:41:10Z
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@pericat I'm worried about finding random internet holidays, as I don't want to bring in something that is incorrect or has multiple answers. I really want something I can talk to someone about, don't worry about it.
(DIR) Post #1941673 by tricoteur@pouet.ca
2018-12-12T22:12:58Z
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@Canageek btw, if you are looking for more questions related to observations for the season...Solstice events:* Summer - southern hemisphere* Winter - northern hemisphere* 冬至 (Dōngzhì) - China* Kračun - Slavic ethnicities* Shab-e Yalda - IranianFull moon events (22 Dec):* Uposotha (Poya in Sri Lanka)* Khorram Rooz (first day of Dey, ancient Persian New Years, 1st day of 10th month)Unable to determine date:* Shálako (Zuni) 49th day after 10th moonOthers - http://venez.ca/53mOs
(DIR) Post #1941674 by Canageek@cybre.space
2018-12-12T22:22:41Z
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@tricoteur Not sure how to turn those into questions though :(
(DIR) Post #1941787 by tricoteur@pouet.ca
2018-12-12T22:26:18Z
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@Canageek (Trick question) Q: What are the two types of Solstices and how often do they occur?A: Winter and Summer Solstice, and each occurs twice each year, depending on which hemisphere you are in.
(DIR) Post #1941805 by Canageek@cybre.space
2018-12-12T22:26:54Z
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@tricoteur Mmmm, I don't want to have more pagan holidays then anyone elses, do I'm looking for more stuff from people in Asia if you know of anyone?
(DIR) Post #1942002 by tricoteur@pouet.ca
2018-12-12T22:33:29Z
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@Canageek Well, Dōngzhì is a chinese event, but I do not know how widely observed (China is also wildly non-homogenous.) It's sort of the Chinese Thanksgiving, lots of travel back home, and rice balls.Laba festival will not be until late January this year
(DIR) Post #1942255 by tricoteur@pouet.ca
2018-12-12T22:45:26Z
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@Canageek https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_festivals_in_Asia <- bewildering trying to track these down to Gregorian calendar dates.
(DIR) Post #1942256 by Canageek@cybre.space
2018-12-12T22:46:00Z
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@tricoteur Yeah, I wouldn't want to try and do that myself, I could screw something up and actually offend someone.
(DIR) Post #1942848 by Canageek@cybre.space
2018-12-12T23:30:52Z
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@tricoteur Eh, they are pulling the whole section, and I'm leaving the caucus, don't worry about it.
(DIR) Post #1943786 by evilscientistca@octodon.social
2018-12-13T00:29:10Z
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@Canageek less a Buddhist tradition, more a Japanese one (bearing in mind my dad's family came from Japan in 1912, so a bit removed) is having mochi (a rice cake) baked over the holiday season (usually New Year's Day). The baked mochi is dipped in a mix of sugar and soy sauce then eaten. mmmm, mmmm, mmmm
(DIR) Post #1961666 by evilscientistca@octodon.social
2018-12-13T17:54:13Z
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@Canageek @DialMforMara Sure, which one?
(DIR) Post #1962426 by Canageek@cybre.space
2018-12-13T18:41:53Z
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@DialMforMara @evilscientistca Don't worry about it. The questions got pulled