Post 1574155 by museus@freespeech.firedragonstudios.com
(DIR) More posts by museus@freespeech.firedragonstudios.com
(DIR) Post #1572604 by bedap@sunbeam.city
2018-11-29T02:37:47Z
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Using "utopian" as an insult makes no sense to me. If you're not striving for utopia, literally what the fuck are you doing?
(DIR) Post #1572605 by museus@freespeech.firedragonstudios.com
2018-11-29T03:07:27Z
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@bedap In practice, utopia is just an excuse for tyranny.
(DIR) Post #1573653 by bedap@sunbeam.city
2018-11-29T04:19:36Z
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@museus interesting, have any examples?
(DIR) Post #1573851 by museus@freespeech.firedragonstudios.com
2018-11-29T04:37:33Z
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@bedap Plenty...Short of listing all of them, pretty much any political ideology that ends in -ism.Name me one that hasn't ended up producing copious mass graves in the effort to foist it's desired outcome on the unwilling?The only potential exception I can think of is maybe Anarchism without hyphens, which doesn't specify any outcome apart from the absence of rulers. Though hyphened Anarchists have proven nearly as violent as any other -ism in their efforts to achieve that emancipation.
(DIR) Post #1574085 by bedap@sunbeam.city
2018-11-29T04:55:55Z
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@museus cool, soooo, no examples. Kinda figured that.I'm curious how you define utopia, though. And also anarchism?
(DIR) Post #1574155 by museus@freespeech.firedragonstudios.com
2018-11-29T05:01:25Z
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@bedap FFS... You seriously need a list? Okay, I'll give you a few since you don't seem able to grasp my meaning without me spelling it out.Communism, fascism, socialism, democracy (of the drama-quotes variety constantly bleated by 'muricans). Also Abrahamic religion. Is that enough examples, or do you need me to go through the encyclopedia and list every -ism in there?As to the rest, you'll have to use a dictionary. I'm not gonna waste any more of my time on it rn.
(DIR) Post #1588544 by bedap@sunbeam.city
2018-11-29T18:45:57Z
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@museus okay, but I'm talking about utopia, and you're talking about systems that intentionally retain power and oppression.Dictionary definitions of utopia aren't really useful, which is why I asked how you interpret it, but okay. "an imaginary place in which the government, laws, and social conditions are perfect," according to Merriam-Webster. At far point, in practice, has there ever been a utopia like you claimed?
(DIR) Post #1588672 by museus@freespeech.firedragonstudios.com
2018-11-29T18:54:25Z
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@bedap > in practice, has there ever been a utopia like you claimed?Of course there hasn't. Maybe excepting some indigenous societies, such as the Haudenosaunee, etc. Though they had centuries of blood shed before voluntarily choosing a better strategy.The point is political ideologies are typically based on an imaginary utopia which will come about if only everyone adopts that system. As a consequence the utopian ideal becomes the perfect excuse to violently impose that on the unwilling.
(DIR) Post #1588813 by museus@freespeech.firedragonstudios.com
2018-11-29T19:02:18Z
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@bedap So as an accurate generalization, it's perfectly legitimate to say that "utopia is just an excuse for tyranny". The only possible exception is total voluntarism brought about exclusively through pure moral suasion.That is how the Haudenosaunee finally "buried the hatchet" under the "tree of great peace". Ironically, ideologies like Marxism and American republican democracy were heavily based on the Haudenosaunee system. Yet look at their results ... 100s of millions in mass graves.
(DIR) Post #1588905 by museus@freespeech.firedragonstudios.com
2018-11-29T19:06:39Z
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@bedap Arguably the reason that's the case for the non-indigenous attempts to achieve an egalitarian constitutional democracy, is that they didn't think about what it took the Haudenosaunee to achieve it, but only the end result that they finally did. Then they went about trying to force it on everyone against their will, which is the polar opposite of the spirit of that style of governance.So, I am very wary of people who come bearing utopian ideals, as I think any sane person should be.
(DIR) Post #1591999 by bedap@sunbeam.city
2018-11-29T21:30:46Z
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@museus I wish you had laid it out like this from the beginning, because this is something we can actually have a conversation about 😊I think the crux of our disagreement here is in my use of "striving for utopia." Imo utopia isn't a plan to be implemented unilaterally, which as you said can be a vector of great violence, but it's a process. Always asking the question "is this the best we can do?" and trying to make things better based on the answer.
(DIR) Post #1592196 by museus@freespeech.firedragonstudios.com
2018-11-29T21:41:37Z
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@bedap Agreed. I wasn't too keen on the apparent flippancy of your initial response to mine, but glad to see that was a one off. Maybe we can start over on a better footing.I think yours is too great a deviation from the standard meaning of the word "utopia". Utopia isn't generally conceived of as a process, but rather as an idealized end result. If you can find some definition that supports your alternate view, I'm open to it. Effective language requires a common basis for understanding.
(DIR) Post #1595562 by bedap@sunbeam.city
2018-11-30T01:02:43Z
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@museus I hope you'll understand why, w/o further elaboration, your initial response also seemed flippant to me. Let's definitely try this again.While not the standard definition of utopia, it's fairly well established in various literatures. I'd compare it to the idea of permanent revolution, constantly renegotiated & never taken for granted. My conception of utopia is also heavily influenced by Le Guin & Taoism. The Dispossessed argues for this type of utopia
(DIR) Post #1596020 by museus@freespeech.firedragonstudios.com
2018-11-30T01:39:08Z
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@bedap I'm a LeGuin fan, but sadly have yet to read that one. On my list though. Tao Te Ching is also a huge influence on my conception of Anarchism. The specific translation I prefer is below.https://archive.fo/dbfbEIn essence I'd agree with you insofar as I understand your position, though I tend to conceive of it in individualist terms rather than as a grandiose social scheme.Basically if one understands their own rights, society doesn't need to conform. It's merely safer when it does.