Post AyCIHzS3TeFxdm06hU by mike@sauropods.win
(DIR) More posts by mike@sauropods.win
(DIR) Post #AyCGZ0gZwRf4U0mXwm by organicmaps@fosstodon.org
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Some are asking: why does privacy-focused Organic Maps use GitHub? The largest open-source contributor network, familiar PR & issue workflow, Actions CI, broad integrations, zero infra to maintain, and easy onboarding/discoverability. This lets us focus on improving the app instead of running and maintaining servers. Development time is the most precious resource nowadays, and most of our users don't care where the code is hosted, but care about the app functionality and usability… Do you care?
(DIR) Post #AyCGt5erAH2bhCYFc0 by tobru@mstdn.social
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@organicmaps I care! I prefer @Codeberg and I'd appreciate if you would move there.
(DIR) Post #AyCH6HC5aM4TErNpL6 by janvlug@mastodon.social
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@organicmaps Thanks for developing Organic Maps!I do care a lot about preventing vendor lock-in and a Free and Open Source software development environment (Git forge). In general, I'm willing to accept some inconvenience for having freedom.I would applaud it if Organic Maps moved to @Codeberg In this way the Free and Open Source Software development ecosystem would be strengthened.#vendorlockin #opensource #FOSS #DigitalSovereignty #digitalautonomy
(DIR) Post #AyCHG7t52euZGqBm2S by organicmaps@fosstodon.org
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@janvlug @Codeberg what issues, risks, or lock-in-related things do you see now? Migration is possible at any moment; git guarantees it out of the box.
(DIR) Post #AyCHSoEBRmos3u6j3Y by organicmaps@fosstodon.org
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@tobru @Codeberg there should be a serious reason to break the existing convenience and workflows for active contributors and add the burden of migration/new workflows. Why do you think the pros of migration outweigh the cons? Or is it just a wish that doesn't take into account the reality?
(DIR) Post #AyCIHzS3TeFxdm06hU by mike@sauropods.win
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@organicmaps @tobru @Codeberg I think you're making the right call, OrganicMaps. Lots of calls for "action" by (in most cases) people who haven't given any thought to all the things you mention.
(DIR) Post #AyCISzxruSw8Pw88yO by janvlug@mastodon.social
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@organicmaps @Codeberg By using a proprietary platform, you are indirectly strengthening and endorsing it. There is a risk of using parts of GitHub that are not directly related to Git. For example the CI/CD-pipelines, issue tracking, milestone management, and package registries.I did not look into the Organic Maps specifics here. But the whole Codeberg fundamental philosophy is very aligned to the one of Organic Maps, in contrast to the GitHub business model.See:https://codeberg.org/about
(DIR) Post #AyCIVgolYNsru49jTE by skyfaller@jawns.club
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@organicmaps Yes I care, get off GitHub you dweebs. Are you really coming down on the side of apathy?You really want to support MechaHitler? GitHub partnering with xAI is really the last straw, although maybe we all should have bailed earlier, due to previous ethical failures like partnering with ICE.If you're worried about running your own servers, work with Codeberg or any other existing forge.
(DIR) Post #AyCIjUxYRHXBBCqq0m by tobru@mstdn.social
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@organicmaps @Codeberg Free software should be developed with free software, GitHub isn't! Migration is a bit of an effort, but even GitHub Actions can be easily migrated. I'm using all the platforms every day, I don't see moving to Codeberg as a burden, but a choice of freedom.
(DIR) Post #AyCIqG8LxY8PE27sW0 by CheesyLaZanya@techhub.social
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@organicmaps @janvlug @Codeberg I also care and would love more FOSS projects to move off Github. In terms of lock in, the argument seems to be that you don't need to move yet because it would be easy to move, in a thread where you are arguing it would be too much of a hassle to move.The lock in is in the momentum of moving users/communities where Github has an outsized advantage, making people feel trapped in the ecosystem regardless of their feelings of Microsoft/etc.Though I am not a contributor on this project, and while I prefer to not use Github, it is probably more fair to be a decision for contributors who have more stake in it?
(DIR) Post #AyCJ0H5JHLgh4QTiUK by mattwilcox@mstdn.social
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@organicmaps I don’t care no. As long as you maintain control, the rest is preferences.Philosophically there are “better” options; but in practical terms if you follow those you’ll nerf potential contributors because; like it or not; GitHub is the most widely used with the largest audience / pool of people.Practicality trumps philosophy up until that practicality restricts your project.
(DIR) Post #AyCJj6SncAi5A1qDQG by allpurposemat@mastodon.gamedev.place
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@organicmaps while I recognize that migration is an effort, as a developer I am less likely to look into contributing to a project if contributing means I have to navigate a platform that is hostile to me. While I can always `git clone` the project locally, I can't submit patches or participate in discussion without agreeing to MS/GitHub's terms and being subjected to the platform.
(DIR) Post #AyCJkiSDqrfPHCLAPI by ba8842@mastodon.social
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The truth is that I am not a technical expert, and I did not understand the difference between the options mentioned.But in any case, I support any step or measure that supports my privacy and freedom, even if it means a decline in the quality of the service provided.@organicmaps
(DIR) Post #AyCKBvNFvL51AJzWNc by pascaline@mastodon.nl
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@organicmaps Yes, I care.I feel it's us, the people who are open to alternatives and want to move away from, say, Google Maps 🙄, who are the ones who make Organic Maps big and help it grow. So, if we care, you might also care.
(DIR) Post #AyCKrLq6Qo117REos4 by sebulon@mastodon.social
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@organicmaps First of all, thank you for a great piece of software!Yes, I care! As many has already mentioned, I also think you should move over to Codeberg.
(DIR) Post #AyCLz4KhVIY15unHbk by Hyzual@mastodon.xyz
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@organicmaps I think maintainers should do what is best for maintainers. If maintenance becomes too hard, the project dies. I totally understand that migration is "a project" in itself. Morality and values are great, but people demanding change are hardly the ones who will have to figure out the logistics.Thanks for a great app, we love Organic Maps no matter what 💚
(DIR) Post #AyCN4oCQV5UmkVDyoi by pixelcode@social.tchncs.de
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@organicmaps @tobru That “burden of migration” you're rightly complaining about is the exact lock-in effect that the whole #GiveUpGithub discussion is centred around! Migrating issues and PRs isn't a hassle because @Codeberg is shit, but because GitHub try their very best to add as much friction as necessary to stop you from leaving.Forgejo (the platform powering Codeberg) is actively working on federation, i.e. the diametric opposite to lock-in.If you can't bother to use privacy-respecting open-source tools, why do you develop a privacy-respecting open-source app in the first place?
(DIR) Post #AyCNic0NG4IUVoZCfw by n0toose@chaos.social
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@organicmaps @tobru @Codeberg heard it is working out just fine for the @CoMaps folk 💅
(DIR) Post #AyCQ0euXOPase4ZOnQ by adamsdesk@fosstodon.org
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@organicmaps I get it but the truth is this is a conflict of interest and values of the project doesn't align with GitHub/Microsoft. These companies don't care about community. Use services, software, etc. that respect freedom.
(DIR) Post #AyCQL4mqtbgIgqi8a8 by Stomata@social.linux.pizza
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@organicmaps @janvlug @Codeberg git guarantees it but does github guarantees?
(DIR) Post #AyCQiOvMBzfjnxoLaq by nictakiego@mastodon.com.pl
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@organicmaps In my opinion it would be better for you to stay on github. Because recently a new project emerged @CoMaps you might have lost some of contributors, therefore making it harder to maintain the stability of development proccess. Of course I would prefer you to self-host the repository, but it creates some issues:- CoMaps emergence probably caused loss of many contributors - therefore making harder fixing the issues and adding new features- self-hosting on Codeberg or somewhere else would probably also cause loss of some contributors, because they would have no motivation to make another account on Codeberg or somewhere else just to contribute to 1 repository (some of them would just prefer to keep all the eggs in one basket - most of devs have github account these days, and most of the foss projects are on github)- self-hosting generates additional costs and takes time for maintaining its security, stability etc., so while having a decrease in contributors would not be a good move in my opinionIn conclusion I think it is better for you to currently stay on github (i have no much opinion about this, I just want this project to stay alive and grow, as it has proven to be amazing over many years already) to not generate additional costs and focus on gaining more users/contributors/sponsors. I think moving to Codeberg won't change much currently, yet staying on github might assure stability, but it is just my opinion.
(DIR) Post #AyCSm6LJQ3ZpF5qMhk by stinerman@mastodon.social
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@organicmaps ideally you'd have your code elsewhere but it's not a deal-breaker by any means.
(DIR) Post #AyCTI6XeDOIn7ssENc by mhz@piaille.fr
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@organicmaps @tobru @Codeberg obviously migrating to a respectful service will not be painless, but doing it will absolutely be easy. Just ask the community for help, you'll see.Always come back to the community.
(DIR) Post #AyCUNcMjQConEDxcWm by fbobraga@mastodon.social
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@organicmaps @janvlug @Codeberg there's AI PRs...
(DIR) Post #AyCUXDYKWwdPAUxmiG by hdvalentin@rheinneckar.social
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@organicmaps I care. It is only decision you have to make. Everything else then is easy. Only cost some time. A step to a more open web. @Codeberg and @forgejo may help.
(DIR) Post #AyCUhGZGAwYPPnBp9k by fbobraga@mastodon.social
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@organicmaps essentially, there's unsolicited AI stuff forced on developers (thanks to Microsoft business goals): on an open service something like it can't happen if the users don't want it :-)
(DIR) Post #AyCW0kDeFx4opjvtrc by arpia49@mas.to
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@organicmaps another one who cares about using GitHub with their controversial agreements/statements. Especially when there are great alternatives. To be honest, I care in general, but since moving to CoMaps, I don't care much about what OM does.
(DIR) Post #AyCXfSgYS1xAHSQu1I by kboyd@phpc.social
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@organicmaps I feel like I should care, because GH is part of a machine that serves incompatible interests. In the long run, I think it's a good idea to move away from it - not just for moral reasons, but because it's slowly going to become deleterious to keep using it. Particularly for OSS.I don't think there needs to be a rush, but it should likely be put on a roadmap somewhere. So in that sense, I "don't care" about urgency.
(DIR) Post #AyCYXYccaxhAKWO7Xc by janikvonrotz@fosstodon.org
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@organicmaps I care!Your pro arguments are the exact problems of a vendor-lockin.The value of being on GitHub for reach and visibilty is a false promise.I am pretty sure that serious and valuable contributors do not care about GitHub.Reference: https://codeberg.org/comaps
(DIR) Post #AyCbLlGm2sz5wYEgXg by antimundo@mastodon.gamedev.place
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@organicmaps Organic Maps was literally banned from GitHub this march: https://mastodon.social/@organicmaps/114233788700982882Why are you back to GitHub after that? And of course a lot of FOSS users care very much about not using Microsoft products.I feel like this post is just rage bait.
(DIR) Post #AyCbvEb10Cmb27cOtE by ambiguous_yelp@veganism.social
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@organicmaps Yes I care that you're on #github , #microsoft materially supports the gazan #genocide , and its microsoft, their #software business interests are anti user anti freedom and anti privacy, #codeberg exists, nobody said #solidarity was easy but its a one time cost then I hear that using codeberg is basically the same as github#FLOSS #OrganicMaps #Gaza #Palestine
(DIR) Post #AyCbx78LiaN8T66ex6 by organicmaps@fosstodon.org
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@antimundo One of the owners of our GitHub org at that time made a big mistake by making a previously US-sanctioned contributor pastk also an owner of our GitHub org. That triggered the ban. GitHub followed the rules and the law that some people had explicitly broken. We are back on GitHub because we do not plan to break the law (or use the code without the authors' permission, like some other forks do).
(DIR) Post #AyCcq9vb1x7F3tOAPw by antimundo@mastodon.gamedev.place
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@organicmaps Please just stop, really, whoever is in charge of Organic Maps social media it looks like you are rage baiting, and doesn't make you look like a serious trustable project.Take it as constructive criticism.
(DIR) Post #AyCedi8qiH5DJkmPFw by organicmaps@fosstodon.org
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@antimundo You've asked why we returned to GitHub, and got an answer with facts. If using Microsoft products helps develop privacy-focused, open-source Organic Maps and saves contributors' time, why give it up? We have a very pragmatic, non-religious approach. If development speeds up and becomes easier for contributors after changing the platform, we will gladly consider this option.
(DIR) Post #AyCelXDDEVkfjjYEtM by n0toose@chaos.social
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@organicmaps @antimundo i think you guys are doing some very good public relations
(DIR) Post #AyCf4Zkg0xeh7EHcsS by organicmaps@fosstodon.org
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@kboyd Of course, we're very pragmatic. If there are better options, more efficient for the project's development, we would gladly consider them. After trying some alternatives, GitHub is still the winner at the moment in our pros vs cons list.
(DIR) Post #AyCfEVvz3yiUAgJM1Y by organicmaps@fosstodon.org
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@fbobraga that also means that Organic Maps code can be suggested in other projects using AI for similar tasks. Is it good or bad?
(DIR) Post #AyCfZ1BsYvdYu2WUl6 by organicmaps@fosstodon.org
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@pixelcode @tobru @Codeberg Because we're building the best maps, an open alternative to big corps maps.
(DIR) Post #AyCflIt6afO3GTbGHw by organicmaps@fosstodon.org
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@Hyzual very true, it is not only about the maintenance, but about other aspects of open-source development too. We're open to using whatever is the best platform on the market to build the best maps. Because we don't want to spend time on some platform. We want to build the best maps instead.
(DIR) Post #AyCg1e81O0E1m5Myg4 by witcher@digitalcourage.social
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@organicmaps @antimundo going back to GitHub after you so *proudly* announced that you've left GitHub for Forgejo (no matter the reasons) is just on a different level. The whole "pragmatic approach" you seem to have about leaving GitHub *again* really just looks like a front.Actually, the question should be asked the other way around: why did you leave Forgejo for GitHub? And, no, "pragmatism" is not a valid answer here.These posts are the last straw to finally make me leave for @CoMaps. It should be enough reason for anyone else that cares about free software even in the slightest at this point. Rage bait isn't getting you anywhere.
(DIR) Post #AyCg2R5ZLuNXcfbD9s by organicmaps@fosstodon.org
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@pascaline Would you prefer better open-source maps built on the GitHub platform or worse open-source maps built on some other platform? Many users (outside of Fosstodon) have a very pragmatic answer to this question. And that's the reality at the moment.
(DIR) Post #AyCgbziQbR2Z9QjMie by adventure_tense@mapstodon.space
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@organicmaps The initial question posted here already states its conclusion, so why is it being asked?CoMaps forked the project for a reason, so if folks are concerned about open source transparency, I highly encourage them to migrate over to that project, which is already on Codeberg. :-)#CoMaps #Codeberg
(DIR) Post #AyCglJS6ajQAyBXUWW by kboyd@phpc.social
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@organicmaps Yep. Just be prepared for that math to stop mathing, and quickly. Both from GH rotting and from the other offerings improving.
(DIR) Post #AyCgtIfLOp8CqaXYNk by organicmaps@fosstodon.org
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@kboyd agree, it’s better to always stay prepared for the better.
(DIR) Post #AyChScqkLdVna8iaCe by pascaline@mastodon.nl
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@organicmaps I don't think this is a fair question, and for some reason I get the feeling you only asked us the question to push your own answer and promote it here. If this is the case, it's not a very nice strategy.
(DIR) Post #AyCiGVRWA28b5ZhbnM by bgtdsword@toot.io
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@organicmaps i care. Very much so.There are some good points in this blog post about why you should toohttps://drewdevault.com/2022/03/29/free-software-free-infrastructure.htmlMainly: if you are to convince people to use your free software maps alternative over some proprietary ones, why not lead by example with code infrastructure?
(DIR) Post #AyCkxdxMaCWvr0IM2S by chebra@mstdn.io
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@organicmaps @antimundo And that sanctioned individual is... still in your team? Yes, we care. If we want a map app that cares, we can go to CoMaps. This is why "open" matters.
(DIR) Post #AyClKeEhi1hnNjNL2u by tobru@mstdn.social
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@organicmaps are you really thinking the app would be worse on other software forges? What does the forge have to do with software quality? This is insane! @pascaline
(DIR) Post #AyCm0RUDVEdo09YoRk by organicmaps@fosstodon.org
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@bgtdsword we have almost 3k issues on GitHub. Focusing on the product by using the most optimal tools for that is in the priority. Promoting FOSS to millions of app users by providing a privacy- and user-friendly alternative to Google or Apple maps is more efficient, than spending our time on good, but still not as efficient tools.
(DIR) Post #AyCnFaBTXycnH6ZsmW by organicmaps@fosstodon.org
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@tobru @pascaline there are reasons why popular FOSS projects like Mastodon, Python, Nix, LLVM, and many others are still on GitHub. For sure, after some time, the situation may change.
(DIR) Post #AyCpPWKSvzuK7geJg8 by tagomago@mastodon.social
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@organicmaps The convenience argument is pretty feeble in the free software movement, you must already know that...
(DIR) Post #AyCrj97x6k5prcHYzw by pare@homestuck.fr
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Maybe "Development time is the most precious resource nowadays".But in my opinion "freedom" is much more precious than "resources".So, if you ask me "Do you care"? I do answer: yes, of course I care!
(DIR) Post #AyCrj9kEoOiZmMC8fo by organicmaps@fosstodon.org
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@pare 100% agree. Resources are important if you're building a worldwide app that promotes privacy and FOSS. Freedom is important for everyone. No exceptions.
(DIR) Post #AyCsW62DOVqcShwKv2 by organicmaps@fosstodon.org
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@tagomago Many Organic Maps contributors work on the project in their free time, at the expense of time spent with family. Convenience in terms of saved time is important, yes.
(DIR) Post #AyCtvOxmFvbkMSUj0y by organicmaps@fosstodon.org
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@ChrisWere @tagomago Many Organic Maps contributors have never worked on any FOSS project before. An easy way to start is important for them, as, for example, for GSoC students.
(DIR) Post #AyCuRUQxS3mKawRc8m by richlv@mastodon.social
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@organicmaps @janvlug @CodebergThere's some dissonance here. In another post you talk about having Github issues, and here you talk about git only.I don't have as strong preferences for/against Github as many here, just observing that your PR with this thread has been really good - for other projects.With this being Sunday, was the thread inspired by some party-like events? :)
(DIR) Post #AyCvut2n88gDH3ipkW by tagomago@mastodon.social
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@organicmaps @ChrisWere I mean, you can handle it the way you want, just don’t expect approval. That’s what happens when you become dependent on the kind of platforms you intend to fight with OM: you end up defending its use because, well it’s what everyone has and it’s convenient. Other projects made the effort to migrate, so I guess it’s doable. If you need help, maybe ask for help financing it.
(DIR) Post #AyDIYbTu2s4NNZkMng by justin@toot.io
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@organicmaps yes. #GiveUpGitHub
(DIR) Post #AyDIjUfxgjmxSRa1oG by justin@toot.io
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@organicmaps @pixelcode @tobru @Codeberg while using big corp services to do it...
(DIR) Post #AyDUvjFuVPNvbKzmFc by Salvo@aus.social
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@organicmaps I care, but I also understand that sometimes compromises need to be made for the benefit of the project.Self-Hosting a versioning and distribution platform can become very expensive, very quickly, especially when your project is popular.Open Source projects have limited funds and I am grateful for what the developers do provide us.
(DIR) Post #AyDZUFGwNHuSYsBvge by qruyant@zirk.us
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@organicmaps @tagomago Is the decision about AI supposedly saving development time?
(DIR) Post #AyDxgEhkhyjdAyz0TY by ravi@toot.io
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@organicmaps It's not true that the only alternative to GitHub is self hosting. There are #FreeSoftware options like Codeberg too. If convenience is that important, why don't just use Google Maps? Or use any other maps which work well in that area? Why do OpenStreetMappers put time daily to build OSM? I use OSM even if a region is not well mapped and add data myself too in those cases. Would I have done the same thing if I cared only about my convenience?
(DIR) Post #AyEBzXINDBCDh7D28W by praveen@social.masto.host
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@organicmaps that is a false choice, it does not have to binary of github or self hosting. codeberg is #FreeSoftware and collectively run by the community. There is no platform maintenance cost if you choose #codeberg. Do you like if codeberg actively promoting Google Maps and saying OSM is incomplete, and not convenient ? Free Software projects have to support and promote each other, if we grow together, everyone benefits. If every other Free Software were promoting convenience it'd affect OSM.
(DIR) Post #AyEzMCjshWriM2VxwW by gianni@mastodon.online
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@organicmaps Doesn't matter to me! Thanks for building a great app.
(DIR) Post #AyG6rruYZFNHrVVtbM by genuineparts@mastodon.social
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@organicmaps I care. While it's not gonna be painless Imagine you may not have a choice in the future and then it's really gonna be painful.
(DIR) Post #AyGNp4YkmcmLRTZGfw by linuxjj@mastodon.social
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@organicmaps so enabling ads is now called 'improving the app'. You're just Google maps without the convenience at this point.And most of your users do care where you are hosting the development, that's why you're going through this exodus.
(DIR) Post #AyGObK4kOkZRSqXYIa by linuxjj@mastodon.social
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@organicmaps @tobru @CodebergPlenty of reasons to stay away from github:- GitHub belongs to Microsoft- GitHub is subject to business decisions that affect users- GitHub tracks user activity for analytical and advertising purposes- GitHub is a for profit platform- GitHub is NOT open sourceBeing FOSS developers you should be aware of why each of these points is important. And if you do know, then that means you just don't care.
(DIR) Post #AyGRMDd8NaRMzd77Ls by draken@masto.nyc
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@organicmaps "Improving the app"involves moving away from Github and Microsoft, not including A"i", and never ads.Yes, I DO care. That was a stupid fucking question.