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# taz.de -- Genocide against Herero and Nama: „We know where the land is“

> Paramount Chief of Ovahereros explains what's wrong with the Joint
> Declaration between Germany and Namibia – and what Hereros and Namas
> demand.

(IMG) Bild: Paramount Chief Mutjinde Katjiua in Berlin, 6/11/2022

taz: Professor Katjiua, now Germany and Namibia seem to re-negotiate the
Joint Declaration about reconciliation that war initialized 2021 after five
years of negotiations. You have had a problem with the whole process right
from the start. Why?

Mutjinde Katjiua: In 2006 the National Assembly of Namibia adopted a
resolution that was brought to parliament by the late Paramount chief Dr
Kuaima Riruako with three key aspects. The first is that Germany must
recognize that what it has committed was a genocide. The second one says
that there should be negotiations, a dialogue between the affected
communities, the Hereros and Namas, and the German government. The third
point is the Namibian government, as an interested party, must facilitate
the negotiations.

Has the Namibian government followed this resolution?

No. When the Geingob administration took over in 2015, it deviated from the
resolution and started a state-to-state negotiation process. We have been
making it very clear that we will not accept a discussion about us without
us, that we must be present at the table. It is only the Ovaherero
traditional authorities and the Nama Traditional Leaders Association that
can represent Hereros and Namas at the negotiations. Because we have many
Hereros and Namas who are not Namibians, these are groups in South Africa,
in Botswana, in the USA, in Canada. The two governments can only speak for
people here in Germany or in Namibia. The state-to-state negotiations
exclude diasporans.

Both governments argue that you could have been part of the negotiations
and that some traditional representatives actually did that. Why did you
not?

When we pushed that we should participate then the Namibian government
created a forum of Chiefs to advise the negotiations. But they did not
participate in the process directly. They did not sit at the table and
negotiate. That is why, when the joint Declaration came out, some of those
chiefs who were part of the Chiefs forum, were surprised of the
declaration- and they pulled out. But the overhelming majority of the
Herero leaders and all the Nama leaders refrained from being part of that
advisory team from the start. We knew that this was fake.

Let us talk about the Joint declaration itself. What do you think about it?

It's only a declaration and nothing is binding. There is no contractual
obligation on any of these two governments because it's an intent. This is
the first thing. Secondly, this declaration has deviated from the
resolution of 2006 of the National Assembly. Thirdly, this declaration does
not speak about reparation. In effect, it says „from today's perspective
those events“ – they really speak of events – „can be classified as
genocide“. Only from today's perspective! But when it happened it was not a
genocide. It was fine to exterminate us, it says. Germany did well. That is
why Kaiser Wilhelm II gave the highest military order to General von Trotta
who issued the so called „extermination orders“ – for doing a great job!

The German government would not say that!

When we went to court in New York 2018 our lawyers were pushing for the
application of the Restatement of International Law of 1868, which states
that any „extermination, annihilation of a tribe capable of cultures and
language would be a violation of international law“. The German lawyers
were arguing that we were not protected by the Restatement of International
Law because we fall in a category of tribes considered as „wild“, or
savages. So from the German point of view we are not part of that
protection.

Do you think they did not want to name it genocide because this would mean
that you have the right for reparations?

Exactly. If you talk of genocide you also talk of reparation which comes
with certain liabilities. Thus „reparation“ is not mentioned in the whole
document.

The German government also argued that the term genocide was not yet
invented by 1904-1908.

It is correct that the term came in 1948. But it's the same German
government that recognized the Armenian genocide of 1915, seven years after
ours. It is recognised here in the Bundestag that this was a genocide. So
why don’t they recognize ours?

What is it exaclty that you demand from Germany?

Our demands are that they come at the table and we will put our case to
them. And we negotiate our case.

And in the end?

It will be an agreement that would result in a reparation of damages, of
our sufferings, of our dignity. And it will address the needs of Herero and
Nama everywhere in the world, in the diaspora as well as in Namibia.

Is it mainly a question of more money?

No! This agreement between the two governments is looking at money and it
is looking at addressing Namibia's five year development programs. And the
programs are identified as rural electrification, roads, water
infrastructure. But nowhere is it addressing the psychological trauma of
Herero and Nama, the loss of language and culture of Herero and Nama in
Botswana, South Africa and elsewhere. So those things are not included.

How can you measure such things in money?

That can always be worked out. If you have lost the language and you want
to learn it, how much does it cost to teach a language? What sort of
programs should be in place for you to be exposed to your lost culture?
What sort of improvement do we need to do for your community where they are
based? But we can only come to those discussions when we are at the table
and can say: Look guys of the needs to address, this is the loss, this is
the damage, this is what it cost to repair. And it becomes an issue of
negotiations.

The German government also said that a government cannot negotiate with
people, with traditional leaders. It could only negotiate with another
government.

That's a an excuse. At some point of the negotiations the special envoy of
the German government Ruprecht Polenz was saying: We don't know and we
don't care who comes to the table – that is an issue for the Namibian
government to discuss. So they're contradicting themselves.

In Germany many people think all this is more than 100 years ago, what does
it have to do with our present life? And they don't understand what present
impacts the genocide still has for your people. Maybe you can explain?

Till to date some Hereros are still being buried at the places where their
ancestors were buried at those private farms occupied by Germans. But some
of these German commercial farmers in Namibia are prohibiting Hereros to
access their holy sites, their sacred sites.

They cannot go to the graves of their ancestors?

And we are a religious group who believes in the life after death and the
presence of our ancestors. And the 70 per cent of land that is mainly
occupied by the Germans were taken from the Namas and Herero. We know where
this land is. We know that the descendants of those who expropriated the
land are still on that land. So this long term impoverishment derived from
dispossession is still present. Also the lack of culture, the cultural
genocide of our people in Botswana, in South Africa, that we are visiting
yearly is still a cost to us. So it is very much present. Where I live
today is determined by where I moved to when the displacement that had
taken place. So it is still present.

At the conference last week in Berlin at the Haus der Kulturen der Welt it
was said that something like a truth commission would be helpful or even
necessary. What do you think?

It is necessary because it will eliminate this issue of denial. A lot of
Germans are sitting on our land enjoying the fruits of our blood. But
they're denying that we were on the land when they occupied it, and that we
were killed and displaced. But that denial doesn't make the land theirs. So
a truth and reconciliation commission or such a framework would be best for
people to express their losses, their sufferings, and for others to
recognize that the ancestors have contributed to pain in parts of our
community as Namibians.

So it would also be important to close the gaps within the Namibian
society?

Yes of course! At the moment we have more Germans here who are sympathizing
with our case than in Namibia. The Germans in Namiia are all denialists.
They are no Germans who are sitting with us and argue for reparation. We
are sitting on the other side of the fence. We're sitting outside and they
are taking comfort in the SWAPO government because the government also
doesn't want us to be paid reparations in nutshell.

And why is that? Why is still 70 per cent of the land in the hand of the
Germans as you call them? Didn’t the Swapo government want to make a land
reform some years ago?

The reality is that the government that is running the country is dominated
by people who have not lost theirs land. So the land reform program is
cosmetic. It's basically a settlement program. And they are trying to
settle every person without considering the history of land loss or land
dispossession. That government is not in the interest of those who have
lost land. It is serving the interest of the Germans.

Because they are the economic most powerful group in the country?

No, I think the government itself doesn't want to address our needs. It is
probably gaining wealth by marginalizing us. And of course, the Germans
development aid that comes to Namibia is to protect the German interests.
It goes to the Namibian government and they use it to enrich themselves or
to divert it wherever they want it.

Now the Namibian government seems to change its mind. The [1][vice
president last week said that they would like to renegotiate] the
declaration and that no agreement with Germany is made so far.

It's politics. It is only through our efforts, the pressure that we have
put on both governments that the German government first moved to say it
was a genocide in public. And only then did the Namibian government started
to use the same term genocide. So when the government now is saying this
declaration ust be renegotiated and that the people in diaspora must be
included – it's lip service. It's soon in the election year. I don't think
they are genuine in that request, but it has come because those chiefs who
are with the government, they also started to say that the diasporans must
be included. The negotiation must be start afresh or renegotiated and so
forth. So it is that pressure that is cosmetically changing the
government's tone. The government basically is trying to use these pseudo
chiefs to bargain, to increase its bargaining power to go to Germany and
say, increase the money.

So they only want more money?

Yes. And then in the end, when Germany will give some more money, they will
sign it.

But the Namibian parliament has to sign, or not?

Well, it's not clear whether parliament will have to sign it. But of course
it was in Parliament, it has to go back to parliament. But the president
may use his own discretion and the Foreign Affairs Ministry will sign it. I
don't know. But we're not going to leave that case there.

I heard that you and some Namibian lawyers want to bring the case to the
high court of Namibia, is that correct?

We are in preparation to file the case to the Namibian court.

Do you think that there is a realistic option that you could win?

Courts are courts. Sometimes courts are political instruments. So you may
have the best case, but courts make the decisions. But we're always hopeful
and will exhaust all legal means. That's our first priority. But as we have
always said, if all legal means and all political means come to an end, we
know where the land is. We shall mobilize our people to re-occupy their
lands.

You would occupy the land?

That's the only thing when all peaceful means do not work.

Do other Namibians support you in that? What does the majority of the
Namibians think of all this? I mean the Germans, the whites are only a
small minority.

A lot of awareness had to be created. During the second National Land
Conference in 2018 a team went around to interview Namibians the majority
agreed that the issue of ancestral land must be discussed and agreed that
the Herero and Namas, Damaras and San have lost the land. Therefore, that
must be discussed and is an issue of interest to those communities. So that
came out clear.

In the conference here in Berlin the group [2][Forensic Architecture]
presented new scientific results that many places of the genocide are lost,
unknown or even replaced by present buildings and streets. Why are places
of rememberance so rare in Namibia?

It's a thing of the Namibian government for trying to make this genocide
very insignificant. You will be surprised that in Swakopmund where we have
the mass graves of victims of genocide no single Namibian official has ever
visited that site. You'd be surprised that where the extermination order
was issued in the Omaheke region for the Herero there is nothing. No
Namibian official has ever been there in their official capacity.

Now you are here in Germany to attend the conference about the genocide.
And you probably meet politicians who stand at your side and may be can put
some pressure on the German government?

We're trying to do that. You know that the Green Party has always been on
our side when it was in opposition. And also Die Linke.

Now the Greens are part of the government. Do you see any change since the
Greens lead the ministry of foreign affairs?

They adopted the same approach as the government before. They have kept
Rupert Polenz as the chief negotiator or envoy, and they are saying they
have already signed or initialized the joint declaration and that they are
not willing to renegotiate. So the Green Party is as all parties in
Germany: The German interest counts more than the interest and justice of
Hereros and Namas. That's why they're not willing to start the negotiations
afresh. But it has to take place. Whether it's going to take another
hundred years, we'll pursue.

16 Nov 2022

## LINKS

(DIR) [1] /Voelkermord-an-den-Herero-und-Nama/!5893037
(DIR) [2] https://forensic-architecture.org/investigation/restituting-evidence-genocide-and-reparations-in-german-colonial-namibia-phase-1

## TAGS

(DIR) Deutscher Kolonialismus
(DIR) Schwerpunkt Völkermord an den Herero und Nama
(DIR) Deutscher Kolonialismus
(DIR) Namibia
(DIR) Lateinamerika

## ARTIKEL ZUM THEMA

(DIR) Genozid an Herero und Nama: „Wir müssen mit an den Tisch“

Am „Versöhnungsabkommen“ mit Namibia soll wieder verhandelt werden. Der
Paramount-Chief der Herero erklärt seine grundsätzliche Kritik daran.

(DIR) Völkermord an den Herero und Nama: Versöhnungsabkommen wackelt

In Namibia ist die geplante Versöhnung mit Deutschland umstritten. Die
dortige Regierung will Nachverhandlungen – doch Berlin mauert.

(DIR) Kolonialverbrechen in Namibia: Genozid, keine Kriege

Deutschland hat die Verbrechen der deutschen Kolonialmacht im heutigen
Namibia als Völkermord anerkannt. An Schulen wird das kaum behandelt.