Post B9Gvq0dz3tI6OZpr0K by whitequark@social.treehouse.systems
 (DIR) More posts by whitequark@social.treehouse.systems
 (DIR) Post #B9GvWxJbDKFuZMDOlc by ariadne@social.treehouse.systems
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       i'm sorry but if you are going to suggest matrix to share and process confidential information, i am just not going to take you seriously.E2EE systems can't be fragile.  fragile E2EE systems get disabled.
       
 (DIR) Post #B9Gvc8CGBS7LlYFZOS by whitequark@social.treehouse.systems
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       @ariadne matrix isn't even really e2ee. reactions and lots of metadata are unencrypted and broadcast everywhere
       
 (DIR) Post #B9Gvg0jtqtd7nNpp9E by ariadne@social.treehouse.systems
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       @whitequark sure, but even ignoring all of that, the second people complain about "unable to decrypt message" the typical response is to turn off the encrypted mode
       
 (DIR) Post #B9Gvq0dz3tI6OZpr0K by whitequark@social.treehouse.systems
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       @ariadne that is also true. i think what i mean to say here is that it wasn't designed in a serious way and you can see this in multiple aspects of the system
       
 (DIR) Post #B9Gw4c3okCgsUlslPs by ariadne@social.treehouse.systems
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       @whitequark absolutely
       
 (DIR) Post #B9GwcJkbKJA1YOxvd2 by ariadne@social.treehouse.systems
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       (i am also skeptical of attempts to bolt E2EE into pre-existing systems.  to me, it seems like doing E2EE properly requires designing around the requirements of an E2EE system)
       
 (DIR) Post #B9Gz7t9Zwv1yEtpZ7g by ariadne@social.treehouse.systems
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       @alwayscurious i do not know what i could write that i have not already written: retrofitting E2EE into a pre-existing chat platform is extremely hard to do correctly, to the point that i would be skeptical of any implementation which has done this
       
 (DIR) Post #B9GzLn9N4B39fsMZTU by ariadne@social.treehouse.systems
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       @alwayscurious i also do not believe every chat platform needs to be E2EE.it is more about following traffic-light protocol.  both mastodon and matrix are suitable for TLP:CLEAR.
       
 (DIR) Post #B9H03aN3wMCumYeLFg by ariadne@social.treehouse.systems
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       @pj @alwayscurious we disagree, because supporting E2EE messaging badly is worse than not supporting it at all
       
 (DIR) Post #B9H0A9dniiQduKbxLc by ariadne@social.treehouse.systems
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       @pj @alwayscurious in general we dislike matrix and would like to stop having to use matrix
       
 (DIR) Post #B9HBgKTA5wj2FnBBjM by theraspb@aus.social
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       @ariadne @whitequark I personally haven't had this in my recent (last year) of using matrix again. there is lots of matrix I like and I reckon that the sharp edges keep getting smoother and it probably could be the right tool for most things going forward.
       
 (DIR) Post #B9HDtrivy0w53z8geu by sashin@veganism.social
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       @ariadne Is there a decentralised chat that you like?
       
 (DIR) Post #B9HGedZSbWYugi8csK by ariadne@social.treehouse.systems
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       @sashin i like plenty of decentralized chats, but not for E2EE
       
 (DIR) Post #B9HPcftHuKGmtIYEyG by ariadne@social.treehouse.systems
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       @xarvos yes, I am equally skeptical, but I would rather they at least make an effort as a form of harm reduction
       
 (DIR) Post #B9HPiQhFJPlDVKfAGW by sashin@veganism.social
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       @ariadne Is it just that none at the moment are up to scratch? Or is there reason to believe it can't be done in principle?
       
 (DIR) Post #B9HPvtIeHFE9yqZoLw by ariadne@social.treehouse.systems
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       @sashin i mean some are up to scratch but have UX that make the system basically unusablei dont want to memorize a bunch of public keys to chat with friendsthe mapping of cryptographic identity to identities people are already familiar with is basically what makes signal a killer app
       
 (DIR) Post #B9HRDqVpTm8KVBrpbM by lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me
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       @xarvos @ariadne Yeah, E2EE on fedi seems like even right from the start you'd have to be very careful in terms of designing it, so realistically it would likely end up failing in terms of practicality similarly to say OpenPGP or Matrix.
       
 (DIR) Post #B9HUkFh1h3unjAFTW4 by lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me
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       @xarvos @ariadne Plus personally I'm becoming more and more annoyed at the concept of "E2EE".It's the kind of thing that with keeping things practical is deployed on centralised systems, often with the clients being controlled by said silos (making the end-to-end part quite a lie).Meanwhile on decentralised systems, quite often the admins are trusted because they're already part of the community, no need to encrypt against them.So encrypted group chats in a decentralised system can be just a private server, only kind of thing that could use improvements are x509/CA-system (Like TOFU as a fallback being okay but support for key rotation with backup keys would be a lot better for those cases)