Post B8241p8Yq74K8W5ski by mirabilos@toot.mirbsd.org
 (DIR) More posts by mirabilos@toot.mirbsd.org
 (DIR) Post #B821vLe3NTK71SbnfM by mirabilos@toot.mirbsd.org
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       @jerome @stefano I’m always seeing the "but who will maintain it if you are gone?" fake argument.Every skilled programmer and admin should be able to take over things, with some amount of preparation.Instead, this is always misused as a reason to "dumb down", to use "standard tools" instead of those suited better for the job, or to not do it at all.Every time, this makes me feel not appreciated. As if their default way of thinking is to consider how they can get rid of me. Instead of working with me longer-term (so the investment into doing it ourselves works out) and upskilling others to maintain it and similar things.
       
 (DIR) Post #B822PCw8JscKhYIsKW by stefano@bsd.cafe
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       @mirabilos @jerome  I usually tell my clients that I can be replaced by anyone with skills in these areas, for standard and relatively simple setups. However, if by replaceable you mean “that even a junior without experience can do it”, you are just going to get into trouble.
       
 (DIR) Post #B822PDAJT9xZPWwCQq by mirabilos@toot.mirbsd.org
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       @jerome @stefano yeah. I write in ways experienced devs and admins can maintain things if they commit into learning a bit.Expecting someone fresh from uninor vocational school to be able to take over anything is dumb. They need some years of training and learning first.Expecting people to write for that as audience is dumber. It will lead to suboptimal solutions, or to misusing "standard" software that merely hides "the" complexity, which is an order of magnitude or three more than the self-written code would have been, that is not maintainable even for experienced devs (if it gets abandoned), and that won’t take your FRs and bugreports anyway, or even if it did, the time until it’s in a stable release would be prohibitive.
       
 (DIR) Post #B823BCCeLmWQKHuZbk by paul@notnull.space
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       @stefano @mirabilos @jerome absolutely.I tell my customers the same - "anyone with skills in computing standards should be able to understand this" and that is not equal to "we can employ somebody who 'knows computers' to take over"
       
 (DIR) Post #B823BCSFPmzz6fD1v6 by mirabilos@toot.mirbsd.org
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       @jerome @paul @stefano yeah. For example, a system setup anyone who (at that point) had experience with Debian setups could take over, even it not the out-of-the-box stock setup.But nooooo, that cannot be expected. Who needs choice in FOSS anyway?(Nowadays they’d need someone who has worked with a pre-systemd Debian or invested into learning it, but hey, it’s not so complicated compared to the crap I have to get by on others’ systemd systems.)
       
 (DIR) Post #B823cARL0tkCg1dudM by mirabilos@toot.mirbsd.org
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       @paul @jerome @stefano also a favourite: "ok but document ALL of it"Sure, but for what audience?My offer to explain the setup interactively to them while they take notes to write the documentation wasn’t welcome either, for some reason I don’t understand. My own notes were not right, but in what way was never clarified. Look, I’m going to assume you know 'sudo apt-get' and where configs are if you want to administer a Debian, or same but with rpm and yum for CentOS 5/6…
       
 (DIR) Post #B8241p8Yq74K8W5ski by mirabilos@toot.mirbsd.org
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       @paul @jerome @stefano and “configuration management” makes it worse: it papers over configs instead of working with a delta to the distros’ default configs (which is working with them, not against), making it impossible to figure out (especially after jumping a few major versions) what t f they were even thinking / trying to do…
       
 (DIR) Post #B8245izNdjW8E7ey2a by mirabilos@toot.mirbsd.org
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       @paul @jerome @stefano … in a way, does that mean that Puppet/Ansible/Salt/Chef/Docker/Helm/Kubernetes/Foreman/Uyuni/… were paving the way for “AI” slop?I think it does.
       
 (DIR) Post #B826ya92QL8GdGSl8K by paul@notnull.space
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       @mirabilos @jerome @stefano documentation bugs meOr, at least, the requirement of documentation specifics.I'll put down the keynotes, but I expect whomever is taking over to have enough knowledge to understand what they mean. I am NOT writing a "click here, press yes, type initialise" document or any rubbish like that
       
 (DIR) Post #B826yaStEX0ncpkc4m by mirabilos@toot.mirbsd.org
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       @paul @jerome @stefano right.(I did write an installation manual for something like that, because it was requested. It was fun writing in “german for authority offices”. Someone else decided to move to Docker despite, causing no small amount of trouble.)