Post B7jR5UxBfE1XNWzctU by mirabilos@toot.mirbsd.org
(DIR) More posts by mirabilos@toot.mirbsd.org
(DIR) Post #B7hDubmoEUVVfDhDDE by rl_dane@polymaths.social
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It's funny that I've often complained about #Debian being long in the tooth, but now I'm kinda considering sticking with #Trixie until 2030-06-30 (end of #LTS)....becase it's relatively #slop-free, at least in "base."#NoAI #AInt
(DIR) Post #B7hMcGdT1ymqRPehQO by amin@polymaths.social
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@rl_daneJoin us!
(DIR) Post #B7hMcGpWJAQb2nIKDA by rl_dane@polymaths.social
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@aminAre you staying on Trixie, too? Even after Forky comes out?
(DIR) Post #B7hMcH4lOUcZo4QUyG by mirabilos@toot.mirbsd.org
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@amin @rl_dane still sitting on bullseye for the most part…
(DIR) Post #B7hMhLj1XFOnfrg5Jo by kbm0@mastodon.social
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@rl_dane Is anyone keeping tabs on which packages have been enslopified? If it gets bad I might have to switch to NetBSD.
(DIR) Post #B7hMhLwUjAAsLdyqJc by rl_dane@polymaths.social
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@kbm0This is a start, but man, it's discouraging...https://codeberg.org/ethical-foss/open-slopwareWhen folks are trying to figure out how to use tar instead of rsync, you know things are bad.
(DIR) Post #B7hoOmmFWu7smz7h7A by rl_dane@polymaths.social
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@mirabilos @aminwow ^__^
(DIR) Post #B7hoOn0merkhW3vIlk by mirabilos@toot.mirbsd.org
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@rl_dane @amin last release before filesystem layout ensystemdification 🤷
(DIR) Post #B7hpS91bN02AbzTAbQ by amin@polymaths.social
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@rl_daneDunno, isn't it a year or two until that happens? Haven't really thought about it.I'm having zero issues with Trixie at the moment.
(DIR) Post #B7hpS9EiaEWfGfbe2y by rl_dane@polymaths.social
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@aminAugust-ish 2027 will be Forky.
(DIR) Post #B7hpS9QlrQAPs3FGpk by moses_izumi@fe.disroot.org
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@rl_dane @amin I choose to interpret this as "next summer will have several hard-forks of Debian" :P
(DIR) Post #B7hpS9blCYxQQ8O2xk by rl_dane@polymaths.social
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@moses_izumi @aminI'm doubting it. We've already got #Devuan, #Antix, #MXLinux, and #LMDE.If anyone's gonna "SALLY HO, ROCINANTE!!" on slop, it'd be one of those guys, and I honestly don't see it happening, sadly.A handful of folks will hold back versions as long as possible, a handful of folks will do stuff like using tar instead of rsync, a good number more (like myself) will kvetch about it, and we will all clench our butt cheeks until the code kipple consumes everything and we start over with Commodore 64s or VAX clones or something.:BlobCatFacepalm:
(DIR) Post #B7hpS9sQCcHjFoBLvs by amin@polymaths.social
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@rl_dane @moses_izumi…tar instead of rsync? How does that work?
(DIR) Post #B7hpSA33Z4n9mn9qVc by kabel42@polymaths.social
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@amin @rl_dane @moses_izumi tar ... | nc ... ?
(DIR) Post #B7hpSAGWkzZESZSbVQ by mirabilos@toot.mirbsd.org
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@kabel42 @amin @rl_dane @moses_izumi something we used at LAN parties ~29 years ago to great success (though with an nc substitute I wrote myself that, sadly, was not pipe-capable at that time, and LHarc of course)
(DIR) Post #B7hrda5VI5VPdisLyq by rl_dane@polymaths.social
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@mirabilos @kabel42 @amin @moses_izumiLHarc!! That's a name I haven't heard of in a loooong time.Personally, I've done this kind of thing many, many times:tar cvf - files/ |zstd -9 |ssh theserver sh -c 'unzstd |tar xvf -'Heck, I've done literally THIS:sudo dd if=/dev/hda1 |gzip -9 |ssh otherserver dd of=hurting-server-hot-image-dont-ask-just-pray.img.gz
(DIR) Post #B7hrdaPi4xfWeOKUTY by mirabilos@toot.mirbsd.org
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@rl_dane @kabel42 @amin @moses_izumi well back then we had to do:receiver:C>fromto get 12345 foo.lzhsender:C>lha a /h2a2x2r foo.lzh foo\*.*C>fromto 192.168.123.45 12345 foo.lzhreceiver:C>lha x foo.lzh
(DIR) Post #B7hrhgg8jBjXEtyCLg by mirabilos@toot.mirbsd.org
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@rl_dane @kabel42 @amin @moses_izumi I’ve done the same as your last line, except for LVs and with lz4 --fast as the network was less limiting than the CPU speed, only this week…
(DIR) Post #B7hrlqArMk0lqbJrPc by rl_dane@polymaths.social
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@mirabilos @aminThe ln -s /usr/bin /bin bullcrap?
(DIR) Post #B7hrlqNcbIDgUBI3Iu by mirabilos@toot.mirbsd.org
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@rl_dane @amin yes
(DIR) Post #B7hrpuYJ1uV4aIE8wa by kabel42@polymaths.social
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@rl_dane @mirabilos @amin wasn't that more a result of static build problems and things that used to be in /[s]bin now being in initrd and so the distinction became meaningless?
(DIR) Post #B7hrputvjVnVfMLPeK by mirabilos@toot.mirbsd.org
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@kabel42 @rl_dane @amin no, it’s a result of Poettering’s idiocy and lack of skills and knowledge
(DIR) Post #B7hsclxXlbT07iKZJQ by mirabilos@toot.mirbsd.org
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@rl_dane @kabel42 @amin @moses_izumi but still it was such an improvement over “Microsoft file and printer sharing”… (something I had quickly cobbled together barely knowing C at that point, with just a thin book about network programming on unix/linux (!) as reference and mostly guessing the winsock parts)
(DIR) Post #B7jOsPYWDpKmxr5PzE by rl_dane@polymaths.social
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@kabel42 @mirabilos @aminIIRC, the bin|sbin thing is different from the /bin|/usr/bin thing.
(DIR) Post #B7jOsPpXCYwfod30Vc by mirabilos@toot.mirbsd.org
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@rl_dane @kabel42 @amin yeah, they’re distinct but both the result of corporate idiocy and lack of introspection and consideration
(DIR) Post #B7jOy8LL8Aj9JmePEO by rl_dane@polymaths.social
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@mirabilos @kabel42 @amin @moses_izumiWas "fromto" your nc solution? :)
(DIR) Post #B7jOy8cM6uL2AYbzkm by mirabilos@toot.mirbsd.org
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@rl_dane @kabel42 @amin @moses_izumi so indeed.I wrote it before even knowing of nc’s existence, which is why I modelled it as file transfer, not pipe.Some time later I did wish I had modelled it as pipe, but… I was not into Windows development much (other than Visual Basic 1.0 for Windows 3.0).
(DIR) Post #B7jPCqJ4TMo5iqbTJQ by rl_dane@polymaths.social
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@mirabilos @kabel42 @aminSystemd is an army of bulldozers knocking over a thousand [Chesterton's Fence]s every minute. 🤦♂️Benno Rice's talks on YT regarding systemd and Unix are particularly illuminating (interpret that word however you wish ;)My takeaway of the #systemd "ethos":Unix doesn't matterBSD doesn't matterLinux is whatever we make itStop resisting "progress"Sound familiar at all?Edit: added extra [] around the link so that folks on terminal fedi clients would realize it's there.
(DIR) Post #B7jPGSfqHS7PaKyou8 by mirabilos@toot.mirbsd.org
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@rl_dane @kabel42 @amin man, that’s an amazing read.Yeah, sounds familiar (from that post that compared “AI” “Stop resisting "progress"” with pro-rape argumentation).
(DIR) Post #B7jPJvGQRKXL7lk3dY by EF@bsd.cafe
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@rl_dane @mirabilos @kabel42 @amin Redhat/IBM are trying to take over Linux (systemd, pulse, wayland...) and now with Microsoft involvement habe created dependancy on this software so the major DEs, KDE and GNOME, and other software has hard dependancies on an "init" system. It is utter madness disguising a corporate takeover.
(DIR) Post #B7jQnGobUXjQJgHodE by kabel42@polymaths.social
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@rl_dane @mirabilos @amin when I got into Linux mid 2000s it was a similar discussion :)Loads of time spent arguing what your path should be when new installations had all 4 (or 6 with /use/local/[s]bin) on the same fs in the default config. I was so annoyed that you couldn't just sudo apt update and every thread pointing that problem out derailed into some irrelevant flame war.
(DIR) Post #B7jQnH6KQduTCeZyG8 by mirabilos@toot.mirbsd.org
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@kabel42 @rl_dane @aminyou couldn't just sudo apt updateThat’s because apt has only been recently introduced.However, you could just sudo apt-get update because sudo sets a different PATH.
(DIR) Post #B7jR26UY9kL2dtyn6O by rl_dane@polymaths.social
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@kabel42 @mirabilos @aminI can appreciate a newbie's attitude of "just get on with it, already," but those are important distinctions.Traditionally, everything in sbin was statically compiled. I don't think that's entirely the case in even BSD at this point. The name gradually took on the meaning of "super user bin," AFAIK./s?bin should be basic system-level stuff, /usr/s?bin should be additional utilities, and /usr/local should be basically third-party stuff, either installed by the admin (Linux) or by the ports/packages (BSD).You know, I haven't thought to check if #Devuan symlinks /bin to /usr/bin.
(DIR) Post #B7jR26nh0ZePbGw4wK by mirabilos@toot.mirbsd.org
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@rl_dane @kabel42 @amin I have full confidence in Devuan’s incapability of diverging from Debian.
(DIR) Post #B7jR5UgAgUPeWl22N6 by kabel42@polymaths.social
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@rl_dane @mirabilos @amin historically yes, but by that time for a single user desktop system where the only user has sudo and no clear documentation as to what goes where apart from vague references to old systems, statically linked stuff needed for boot in initrd, /bin for things from the package manager, and ~/.bin or something similar would be sufficient and less confusing
(DIR) Post #B7jR5UxBfE1XNWzctU by mirabilos@toot.mirbsd.org
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@kabel42 @rl_dane @amin then do that in *buntu and the likes, but not in generic distros.Of course, for systemd, Poettering’s laptop is the only use case that they allow to count, so…
(DIR) Post #B7jRHLOt0aJJDzb6yO by rl_dane@polymaths.social
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@EF @mirabilos @kabel42 @amin* pops popcorn and waits for the flood of non-sequitur arguments about how sysvinit sucked and needed to be fixed, or whateverI mean, the classic corporate takeover argument is a little breathless and wild-eyed, but... mostly not wrong? XD
(DIR) Post #B7jRHLgFy0Cm5riz32 by mirabilos@toot.mirbsd.org
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@rl_dane @EF @kabel42 @amin oh, sysvinit definitely sucks, and systemd does improve on some of its deficiencies.As a BSD person, I don’t even like sysvinit in the first place (the whole runlevels shit is useless crap).However, it is known and mastered and its deficiencies and how to work around it are known and sysadmins know it and it is a stable, not ever-changing, target and doesn’t introduce things like linkage to libxz into SSH or a message bus dependency and a QR code generator and webserver into init. As such, the upsides of not switching to systemd weigh more than the downsides of not getting those sysvinit deficiencies fixed.
(DIR) Post #B7jRR5NhQEFORDggym by moses_izumi@fe.disroot.org
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@bpl @rl_dane personally i prefer Antix and MX because they strive to be comfy lightweight desktop OSes, instead of just growling about service management.it's vision is less "systemd bad", and more "systemd makes us sick, but the same goes for many other parts of the mainstream Linux ecosystem"(might be interesting to port MX Tools to the BSDs)
(DIR) Post #B7jRR5aodSjt5tpAQK by mirabilos@toot.mirbsd.org
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@moses_izumi @rl_dane @bpl I just run Debian with sysvinit and icewm (pre-slop) and evilwm…
(DIR) Post #B7jRWghY5tJ3dGdwau by mirabilos@toot.mirbsd.org
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@kbm0 @rl_dane there’s https://codeberg.org/small-hack/open-slopware/ if @Codeberg ever fixes their servers throwing a 500 for it
(DIR) Post #B7jRaOzZsWODrmqacy by adamhavelka@mastodon.prorocketeers.com
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@rl_dane i thought that debian is against ai in their code
(DIR) Post #B7jRaPDP37RsYfJdB2 by mirabilos@toot.mirbsd.org
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@adamhavelka @rl_dane bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha…… I wish.
(DIR) Post #B7jRdcuAbittsvr5xw by rl_dane@polymaths.social
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@adamhavelkaI don't know of the specifics, but if it's anything like previous #Debian controversies, I'm sure it's been talked to death and then the folks with deepest corporate pockets eventually win anyway.
(DIR) Post #B7jRddATd5wchVU7No by mirabilos@toot.mirbsd.org
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@rl_dane @adamhavelka some folks just did slop things, and the other folks do not have enough force to get them to revert it, and we’ve discussed it to death thrice only to end up in the usual Debian will wait and not decide anything thing :/
(DIR) Post #B7jRzCH6IYfHfDrmpU by mirabilos@toot.mirbsd.org
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@rl_dane @moses_izumi @amin still waiting for That Person (won’t name them until they decide to go public with it themselves) to launch their rsync-noslop/rsync-human fork.Unfortunately, the Debian package maintainers of rsync have indicated they wouldn’t switch upstreams.openrsync I’ve been told isn’t adopting a no-slop policy either, so chances are it’ll become ensloppified just once people have switched to it.
(DIR) Post #B7jSAYi3E8WkQftFZo by EF@bsd.cafe
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@rl_dane @mirabilos @kabel42 @amin it may be a bit far fetched but it is what i feels like. Encourage distros to follow the red brick path, funding ia iaeful tool, then before you realise, they're tied in.
(DIR) Post #B7jSAYvsOjaP7YMI7s by rl_dane@polymaths.social
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@EF @mirabilos @kabel42 @aminI remember the release notes of Debian Trixie said something to the effect that they were not going to use systemd-resolved, even though there was an effort to induce psychological fatigue on the maintainers/decision makers by the systemd crowd. I never heard/read a single person pick up on that, but it was there, plain as day.
(DIR) Post #B7jSCBBxdTs24OeY52 by EF@bsd.cafe
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@rl_dane @mirabilos @kabel42 @amin I use Alpine Linux, Alsa, Xlibre, i3wm, various unix-y tools and daemons. Am basically happy. Family uses Xfce but will encourage tiling. Not anti progress but if it works, no need to change it.
(DIR) Post #B7jSCBQUlRUqnTS9jc by mirabilos@toot.mirbsd.org
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@EF @rl_dane @kabel42 @amin Xlibre is fash shit.
(DIR) Post #B7jSECtCIPjDugqLKK by rl_dane@polymaths.social
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@mirabilos @kabel42 @aminOuch. Yeah, I've referred to it as "Just let it happen"-energy. 🤦♂️
(DIR) Post #B7jSIzQ3nvtTaKUle4 by kabel42@polymaths.social
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@mirabilos @rl_dane @amin pretty sure i couldn't on a 2005 debian
(DIR) Post #B7jSIzkGao3aazwu8m by mirabilos@toot.mirbsd.org
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@kabel42 @rl_dane @amin DMDIF
(DIR) Post #B7jSRWVgepiWWyCEMK by rl_dane@polymaths.social
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@EF @mirabilos @kabel42 @aminEver tried i3/Sway? I don't hate tiling, but I really love tabbed window management. XD
(DIR) Post #B7jSRWjVpQmBDqfGuO by EF@bsd.cafe
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@rl_dane @mirabilos @kabel42 @amin I did. Liked foot term a lot but sway needed lots of new config, wayland didn't do everything I needed so returned to X. Niri is interesting though.
(DIR) Post #B7jSRWy2xOOzwvSsYy by mirabilos@toot.mirbsd.org
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@EF @rl_dane @kabel42 @amin Niri is AI slop (Claude)
(DIR) Post #B7jYTgOLULgrTxAvbc by EF@bsd.cafe
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@mirabilos @rl_dane @kabel42 @amin is that how being developed and maintained X server is supposed to be written? Please keep the political commentary our of this conversation.
(DIR) Post #B7jYTgf0UP1AJcyEZk by mirabilos@toot.mirbsd.org
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@EF @rl_dane @kabel42 @amin oh no, you’re not getting away with actively promoting fash shit(the “well maintenance” is also disproven, the Xlibre guys introduce lots of regressions and don’t even understand C operators)
(DIR) Post #B7jZ4fYZYXKbbgayOW by mirabilos@toot.mirbsd.org
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@kbm0 @rl_dane note that open-slopware still has the problem that they have no level between “almost entirely vibecoded” and “permissive AI policy”; notably they lack an indicator “contains slop commits” like tmux does now, which is decidedly a level above “permissive AI policy” (and even slop in the codespell config like restic currently has) and besides “Gen AI 'Art'”.I have no idea why they don’t have this fundamental label, but… they don’t strike me as easy to communicate with, so I’m not going to ask.
(DIR) Post #B7jZYHHMNsTwzyf9Sy by navi@social.vlhl.dev
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@mirabilos @EF the main reason xlibre even exists is because xorg maintainers got tired of the shameless regressions introduced to xorgi really fail to grasp how anyone trusts the person that got kicked from xorg for regressing too much without remorse... to maintain a fork... of the project that is supposed to be "mostly done and stable"
(DIR) Post #B7ja1p3trKG2AkSGpc by rl_dane@polymaths.social
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@adamhavelka@mirabilos^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ is on the debian mailing lists.He'd definitely know. And has lobbied hard for the exclusion of slop.
(DIR) Post #B7ja1pKYrNaL0QFZnk by mirabilos@toot.mirbsd.org
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@rl_dane @adamhavelka tbh I’m not on many mailing lists, just too much traffic these days, but I am on debian-private, and I’ve been namedropped in LWN threads on that topic, so…
(DIR) Post #B7ja6IE5MvzfmYLofI by rl_dane@polymaths.social
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@mirabilos @moses_izumi @aminopenrsync I’ve been told isn’t adopting a no-slop policy either, so chances are it’ll become ensloppified just once people have switched to it.Egad, is #OpenBSD well and truly lost, then? Or are we just waiting for the core team to catch up with the news, finally?
(DIR) Post #B7ja6IZi4XI6rcT5N2 by mirabilos@toot.mirbsd.org
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@rl_dane @moses_izumi @amin still hoping for the latter; while continued silence is also a signal, I’m still not sure whether they realise the full impact because the person originally asking conflated it with the other commit which was not slop
(DIR) Post #B7jaDyqVJBYVzXzDdI by navi@social.vlhl.dev
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@EF @mirabilos that whole project is a huge political thing, you can't plug your years go lalalalala and pretend politics in foss doesn't exist
(DIR) Post #B7jaDz4KTmcAgQSGBM by mirabilos@toot.mirbsd.org
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@navi I’ve been trying and personally certainly wish I could, but I’ve learnt we cannot 😿(back then, there was much less idiots around, and I was much more naïve…)
(DIR) Post #B7jbGmAwyLk3WDRlhY by navi@social.vlhl.dev
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@mirabilos to me foss was always political, maybe not on this nature but as a fight for computing freedom from those that want total control"those that want total control" change, it happens that currently those are the most dangerous kind
(DIR) Post #B7jbGmOm8wniD5uoFc by mirabilos@toot.mirbsd.org
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@navi yeah. I didn’t consider that political as in “politics” back then, I think.@rl_dane @bpl But it’s as in https://polymaths.social/@rl_dane/statuses/01KW2N6S8K5K21SA43HD566B4F — while it’s true that torch hikes are a tradition, perhaps consider the environment of the time and the impression as a whole.There are some hard questions around there. The norse pagan community has a hard time fighting against neonazis attempting to use runes for their fash crap but is doing that, and most of the time it’s at least clear from other context (time, place, clothing style, things said) whether someone is using it in good faith (erm, literally here) or abusing it; it gets hard when it’s less clear. But there have been things like bans from conferences for these neonazis, so that’s that at least.Back to FOSS, it follows that we cannot exclude politics any longer (but sometimes have to look a little deeper than some do; this is, btw, where that early-2010s SJW rejection from my profile comes from, I’ve seen too much over-reaction and exclusion of minorities who couldn’t argue their case in rapid English well enough).
(DIR) Post #B7jbNeQy9bg3XGDZoW by ossobuffo@deacon.social
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@mirabilos Slightly off topic... My first official job as a programmer (almost three decades ago) was in a Microsoft shop. There were several critical apps written in compiled QBasic, and one in VB-DOS. I never had to touch the VB-DOS app, but I did port a QBasic app to VB6 which dialed up a credit reporting agency on a dedicated line and requested credit reports. There were no comments in the QBasic source, and no documentation; it depended on a TSR to control the modem. I think that was the last thing I ever did for that employer that won me kudos — after that I descended into a spiral of inactivity.@rl_dane @kabel42 @amin @moses_izumi
(DIR) Post #B7jbNehHAyimLpqbEO by mirabilos@toot.mirbsd.org
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@ossobuffo @rl_dane @kabel42 @amin @moses_izumi never had VB6, and I saw VBDos only in a magazine… and last year or so on the internet archive. Tried it out a bit, but it feels overkill for a DOS environment.But VB1? That opened doors. I was very proficient in BASIC already, so…
(DIR) Post #B7jcxDOIHEkO2eULxI by lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me
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@navi @mirabilos I feel like it also always has been but these last years I've been more and more feeling like it should have been a component of a much bigger kind of user/human rights kind of thing rather than "software freedom" that even in free software supporters tends to be reduced to licensing.Like I feel like privacy, autonomy (via say interoperability), … ought to be fundamental too.
(DIR) Post #B7jgC2Qxb42wGWUnFA by mirabilos@toot.mirbsd.org
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@lanodan @navi yeah. I didn’t get that initially, but you know what they say, a code dump under a FOSS licence does not a FOSS project make. And if it phones home or, worse, to Google, it’s also no proper FOSS project, licence notwithstanding. Etc.
(DIR) Post #B7jgItuPgt8LqwXoem by mirabilos@toot.mirbsd.org
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@lanodan @navi I guess back then I had the idea that that was implied. Now, you’ve got to spell it out.
(DIR) Post #B7jjA6cDNXrMW9WvAW by ska@social.treehouse.systems
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@lanodan @navi @mirabilos There has been a slow but constant erosion of civil rights and individual freedoms since the mid-2000s. The Internet was a place that was relatively spared so far because the political world doesn't understand it; but capitalist techbros eventually managed to make it a hellscape, so now we're in the same predicament as the IRL world: we see our rights being blatantly attacked and everyone seems to be asleep.
(DIR) Post #B7ljbtDv9RrDPMKpSC by orbitalmartian@polymaths.social
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@rl_dane I am currently using Arch. I tried Debian once, I messed up quite a bit with that.Maybe I need to try it again.