Post B7aa09b27rLpJ79hHk by lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me
(DIR) More posts by lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me
(DIR) Post #B6t0oM5WMt8vFM5odk by lumi@snug.moe
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i really don't think projects need a super detailed genai policy, just something like:This project condemns generative models (also referred to as "AI" or "GenAI"), please do not use them for any contributions or communication. Contributions where usage of generative models is clear will result in rejection of the contribution and possibly a ban. This includes usage of generative models for code, images, video, audio, documentation, writing and everything else. Exceptions may be made for accessibility, but these exceptions will always be very limited.For reasons why this project rejects generative models, have a look at ai-sucks-actually.fyi or justsayno.ai.this is more than enough. feel free to copy-paste it if you wish to use it
(DIR) Post #B6t1aEsOU5lomPmksa by lumi@snug.moe
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also, thanks to @darby3 for ai-sucks-actually.fyi !it's a great resource :neocat_heart:
(DIR) Post #B6t1cPZxfAEyYLCROK by mjdxp@labyrinth.zone
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@lumi personally i won't use any software that doesn't include a several page long manifesto about why AI is evil as its policy /j
(DIR) Post #B6t1ekaKXBgyHTUHb6 by lumi@snug.moe
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@mjdxp ehehe x3i think it is good to delegate to other websites for that, so we don't have to keep writing the same thingsbut if a project wants to do that in their own words, great!
(DIR) Post #B6t1sSRAntQG3DjyKm by ariethefloof@arcanekittens.xyz
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@lumi even just "fuck ai" somewhere would do imo
(DIR) Post #B6t1v17UpF9qCEl0Eq by lumi@snug.moe
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@ariethefloof i get it, and if someone can't be assed to write more, surethough i feel it is better to be a bit more specific x)
(DIR) Post #B6t1viCyck5jpgeUFc by mjdxp@labyrinth.zone
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@lumi i just hope projects don't start AI generating their anti AI monologues :neomouse_melt:
(DIR) Post #B6t1waMlGa0Jnfe400 by lumi@snug.moe
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@mjdxp fight slop with slop?
(DIR) Post #B6t1zoWx3mzYbBx1eK by ariethefloof@arcanekittens.xyz
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@lumi @mjdxp the slop wars
(DIR) Post #B6t23HFKkfeGWoMUXQ by lumi@snug.moe
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@ariethefloof @mjdxp "ai"-driven development: throwing slop at one-another while genai companies get rich off you
(DIR) Post #B6t2B9oIHbZfmYTImW by lumi@snug.moe
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go ahead, add it to your projects, in CONTRIBUTING.md or README.md :3 i've already written it, you just need to add it~and tell me about it! i'd love to know!also, if you want it to be added to noai.starlightnet.work, say so!
(DIR) Post #B6txgUTpB4pwFjyjwm by remilia@social.cyberia9.org
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@lumi@snug.moe You know, I like the wording here. Think I'll integrate it into the "No AI" stuff I already have in the code of conduct I use for all my projects.
(DIR) Post #B6txjG6j4SYkXuUip6 by lumi@snug.moe
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@remilia thank you! feel free to use it and adapt it whichever way you like :neocat_heart:
(DIR) Post #B6tzjsrJC6TWdhi14K by remilia@social.cyberia9.org
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@lumi@snug.moe https://fossil.cyberia9.org/aika/file?name=CODE-OF-CONDUCT.md&ci=trunk example, all mine use the same template
(DIR) Post #B6u0O5u07OvSfz8rse by lumi@snug.moe
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@remilia neat! i meant for it to go in CONTRIBUTING.md or similar, but it actually fits in a code of conduct, as well :3
(DIR) Post #B7a3kNso2lFwRxuBPs by lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me
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@lumi Mine's about as long: https://hacktivis.me/git/utils-std/file/CONTRIBUTING.md.htmlAnd 9front's even more elegant: https://git.9front.org/plan9front/9front/2e21c09e8cdbca26aa3b069699239467e1fabc40/commit.html
(DIR) Post #B7a4eNiZqO4k9fp2VU by p@fsebugoutzone.org
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@lanodan @lumi I don't know, I don't think clankers tend to write good code but I think a blanket ban on clanker code is like the politics-based bans, like, the thing that matters is code quality. Because you can get clanker-spammed, a general, like, "Clanker-generated patches may be completely ignored" is reasonable.
(DIR) Post #B7a4oMa8vG7zWldXnc by p@fsebugoutzone.org
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@lanodan @lumi > "Clanker-generated patches may be completely ignored"That is to say, like, inclusion in the codebase versus participation in the process, which are different things.
(DIR) Post #B7a69Ze5eBfm4yA2hU by lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me
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@p @lumi Well LLM code is going to be statistically average at best, and at very least 90% of code is pure crap nobody wants to read (and so nobody reads).But it's far from the only problem, like AT&T Unix code was (and quite few times still is) great, but nobody would touch it for anything legal back in the early 90's and even now it's still a bit unclear depending on the versions.Plus outside of purely code, since then there's also the absolute spam of completely bogus security reports, same breed as people throwing a full set of static analyzers and fuzzers without any kind of thoughts in their brains, except now it's with stuff that doesn't even qualifies as tools.
(DIR) Post #B7a93342AgtV9csNSC by p@fsebugoutzone.org
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@lanodan @lumi > LLM code is going to be statistically average at best, and at very least 90% of code is pure crap nobody wants to readSure, yes. Reasonable.> but nobody would touch it for anything legal back in the early 90'sRight, yeah. :bwksmug: on FSE comes from a photo of bwk holding up his copy of Lion's Commentary when AT&T finally announced that they were going to stop suing people for using that book, and there was the whole SCO thing. AT&T got litigious as soon as they possibly could.(I think copyright assignment mainly makes extraction/relicensing easier.)> there's also the absolute spam of completely bogus security reportsThis is real, yeah, but people that are putting clankers to your codebase are, by their nature, not paying attention to contribution guidelines; I don't think a rule against clanker code stops the spam, it just gives you a thing to point to when you ignore the spam, and you don't really need that. You can just put something about ignoring clanker-submissions and that's kind of a hint to people that are people to avoid looking like clankers.
(DIR) Post #B7aAGVfLF4K3a0JE4e by lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me
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@p @lumi Oh they're not really guidelines in my case, it's there so bans can be made immediately and be justified, and so others know the codebase will be kept clean.Then like maybe for the extremely rare few that may occasionally use LLMs and still have reading comprehension, that they shouldn't direct it my way.It's why there's nothing close to a "please", and more intended to be like a bar where there's a "drug dealers will be booted out" sign.
(DIR) Post #B7aGEg549FO71iqpQe by lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me
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@phnt @p @lumi 9front has no gnu bullshit mostly by virtue of not being unix, and device trees have a source format: dts.So nope it doesn't have pregenerated code and if codegen needs to be used, it can entirely be in source format. (moody@ addressed that few times on fedi btw)> Things got way better in the last year or so with new-ish models.Take that shit and shove it back into the ass it came from. Seriously, learn how machine learning works.> CVEs found by LLMsSee the 90% of crap figure, yes you can find some, but you'll also find a ton of bullshit.Plus let's be honest, you can do the exact same with a static analyzer or a fuzzer.The big part of the work is figuring out if you actually have a vulnerability, or it's a nothingburger and at best code could use a bit of cleanup.
(DIR) Post #B7aHDx41cSr3Mca8jw by lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me
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@phnt @lumi @p Also on CVEs found by LLMs see also the: Nobody reads code.Both because there's just too much, like nobody's going to meaningfully audit say firefox, they'll throw a tool at it and pick what seems to be the most critical to fix from it's output, so literally any tool will find things to fix.Like how many actuals exploits do we need to have found either by "oh shit we got pwned" or "huh, this is weird" with glaringly bad code into codebases used by pretty much everyone before we acknowledge this.
(DIR) Post #B7aJkZTGYeYbel4PAW by lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me
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@phnt @p @lumi For example https://hj.9fs.net/moody/p/1777398542.546263> Only way to comply with that policy is to commit the documentation and build it automatically with an mk rule.Pretty much yeah, although the documentation doesn't more needs to be committed in than say a tarball of a package recipe needs to be.And committing the code generator source means you can fix potential bugs it created and do general maintenance like keeping things up-to-date a *lot* more easily.
(DIR) Post #B7aMHubjC4Zmft3PBw by lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me
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@phnt @lumi @p Also to be honest I do think using machine learning in general to help find vulnerabilities makes sense (in fact I posted about that something like ~6 years ago when the stuff was still extremely academic).But LLMs for this are purely just making pigs fly given enough trust, and a complete lock-in into deeply proprietary technology.
(DIR) Post #B7aYDyw6MCLKOJTZFA by lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me
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@phnt @p @lumi > copyright shouldn't exist anywayWhich I can understand but isn't viable for foss projects, and instead is more a cracker projects thing.And I really wish people would have stopped mixing the two decades ago.Like you don't mix Anna's Archive and Project Gutenberg.
(DIR) Post #B7aYtw7jCi6zpZv4yW by mischievoustomato@tsundere.love
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@sun @phnt @p @lanodan @lumi but but but i was told llms are just stochastic parrots that cant do anything!
(DIR) Post #B7aa09b27rLpJ79hHk by lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me
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@phnt @p @sun @lumi @mischievoustomato Plus it very much depends on the needs, like how your typical politician could probably be replaced by a 80's chatbot.
(DIR) Post #B7b27YMtDiomsarAX2 by p@fsebugoutzone.org
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@lanodan @lumi Oh, okay, that makes sense.
(DIR) Post #B7bQwDFvs9Tt4OI8bw by p@fsebugoutzone.org
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@lanodan @lumi @phnt> Like how many actuals exploits do we need to have found either by "oh shit we got pwned" or "huh, this is weird" with glaringly bad code into codebases used by pretty much everyone before we acknowledge this. Real talk.
(DIR) Post #B7bQwnTJDtZVOIpKSW by lolitechengineer@loli.church
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@lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me @phnt@fluffytail.org @p@fsebugoutzone.org @lumi@snug.moe 9front has no gnu bullshit mostly by virtue of not being unixGNU's Not Unix!
(DIR) Post #B7bSLefDCxlXGcoN8a by p@fsebugoutzone.org
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@mischievoustomato @sun @lanodan @lumi @phnt > :moon: "All of my friends are about to start acting in bad faith."> tomabo comes in to mock the bad faith arguments no one has made.> swimming pool fills with urine because everyone hears that there's already urine in itMy face when.aggro-gatordotcom31594.jpg
(DIR) Post #B7bSf2Ac2HUpfnjuK0 by mischievoustomato@tsundere.love
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@p @phnt @lanodan @sun @lumi yes :pekochad:
(DIR) Post #B7bTii7CdqHQaPSgLI by slipgate@shitpost.cloud
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@phnt @p @lanodan @lumi I think it's half company secrets and half having to show your complete training data as part of opening the process. Meaning lots of stolen shit. "Copyright shouldn't exist, but only for us" - your AI benefactors.
(DIR) Post #B7dChsiX5xvlp7Duwi by 7666@comp.lain.la
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@phnt @p @lanodan @sun @lumi idk why this line of arguing still happens. i challenge anyone to read this and disagree with my conclusions. https://infrablog.lain.la/ai-crap
(DIR) Post #B7dChstsPn0MOIWycy by mischievoustomato@tsundere.love
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@7666 @phnt @p @lanodan @sun @lumi i ask chatgpt about this
(DIR) Post #B7dCrc4hpGxX6VEdiy by 7666@comp.lain.la
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@mischievoustomato @phnt @p @lanodan @sun @lumi if my base64 encoded images trick still works it should choke on it
(DIR) Post #B7dCrcLio0ZPxHCEFM by mischievoustomato@tsundere.love
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@7666 @phnt @p @lanodan @sun @lumi thanks for the headsup, i will copy it manually#BeKindToLLMs
(DIR) Post #B7dPKvb3WRurUu6y5A by p@fsebugoutzone.org
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@7666 @phnt @lanodan @lumi @sun I mean, people use it to spam, it is reasonable to complain that people use it to spam (though not to expect that to stop ever). There are a lot of quirks, tokenization process prevents them from interacting with letters and only token chunks.They are willing to lie and hate saying that they're not certain. (Serious issue: they keep using Latex for formulas. Fuck Latex.)
(DIR) Post #B7dPPoYN8Wo56KBbSy by p@fsebugoutzone.org
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@7666 @mischievoustomato @lanodan @lumi @phnt @sun That part is kinda hilarious.
(DIR) Post #B7dPQg5A7LWl7Mw2Qy by 7666@comp.lain.la
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@mischievoustomato @phnt @p @lanodan @sun @lumi that's honestly fine because you're steering the ship in that case. the idea is to choke automatic scrapers and low effort losers. the article says this, ironically.
(DIR) Post #B7dSXQihvpdnMXLM9I by 7666@comp.lain.la
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@phnt @p @lanodan @sun @lumi The issue is that his shipping velocity went through the roof without the same level of review and care taken. We can imply this because regressions were had, and it was easy to put two and two together (see images), and I saw no justification for them other than "I tried my best bro". Rsync is a mission critical tool for many, many people and businesses (although that whole "the entire world depending on one dude doing it for free" image comes to mind) and that level of carelessness is core to my argument that effort is still required for AI tools.
(DIR) Post #B7dScai4DZGbnDVMZs by 7666@comp.lain.la
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@phnt @p @lanodan @sun @lumi I mean, I owe absolutely nothing to everyone who uses my services, but at least some level of moral framework keeps me from packing up shop unannounced or injecting AI slop into everything that I do.Why does being a reasonable person have to be formalized?
(DIR) Post #B7dU7U3p5ZZC6OyYXQ by 7666@comp.lain.la
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@p @phnt @lanodan @sun @lumi That's the primary point I made in my big post thing. AI provides the perfect lens to magnify all the shitty tendencies of people, and (as one such example) roving bands of Indians who see a cash cow because they can now speak like a Westerner via AI re-interpreting their "do the needfuls" are EVERYWHERE and this means the amount of AI output that ends up being junk is in the high 90% range because the person behind the wheel is exceeding their skill level or not acting in good faith. This means the 1-3% of outputs that aren't junk is usually also coming from people putting *effort* into what they are doing to achieve something useful and have enough background knowledge to know how technology is supposed to work, and those people will succeed. But the perception of care and effort is hard to show when AI is involved because I really just don't think the vast majority of people (especially those in management positions) understand what it is they're dealing with and don't care to, they just want the funny chat prompt to shit them out more profit/code/grifts/efficiency/etc. The biggest issue I currently have "scaling AI" is abstracting how to use it for other people to *not* pull that shit on me (e.g. skills or plugins or whatever), and then doing all the regular software development things like version control management, lifecycle management, documentation, deployment, etc. that AI isn't great at. Ironically these newbies shitting out slop also consequently suck at all those things because, guess what, it requires effort.
(DIR) Post #B7dU7UONr80t8AayaO by p@fsebugoutzone.org
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@7666 @lanodan @lumi @phnt @sun > the 1-3% of outputs that aren't junkWell, here's something interesting: experienced devs got a productivity increase from LLMs; junior devs saw a *decrease*. Treating it like something that can think for you will absolutely fuck you, and it is nearly guaranteed that people will do this and then blame the tool when it fails to do the thing that it isn't good at doing and then the vendors will try to make it do the thing that people wish it did.> I really just don't think the vast majority of people (especially those in management positions) understand what it is they're dealing withYes, accurate.
(DIR) Post #B7dURec5Z1hicecZUW by 7666@comp.lain.la
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@phnt @p @lanodan @sun @lumi I don't know that it's relevant. In both cases, code regressions are caused by a lack of rigor in the development process. I think it's more of a lightning rod if that lack of rigor was due to AI but still, buggy software gets ridiculed no matter who pulled the trigger on the latest commit and the trust in that software will be damaged.Also the regressions are stupid. Absolute paths breaking? Seriously?https://github.com/RsyncProject/rsync/issues/922And this is exactly the kind of stuff that would get missed, making assumptions AI is very good at. Lopping off support for Linux <5.6 would be a pretty big change, but it was just kinda slipped in there.https://github.com/RsyncProject/rsync/issues/905
(DIR) Post #B7dUVEdW5UkrDMzqXQ by p@fsebugoutzone.org
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@7666 @phnt @lanodan @lumi @sun > Lopping off support for Linux <5.6Holy fucking shit *why*?
(DIR) Post #B7dVBoG42MdXr8KOVU by r000t@ligma.pro
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@phntHating everything AI has become part of the Online Goodthink meta, so yes this means that Canceldon and Plebbit users are going to bitch about it literally every chance they get. What's super funny about this is that some leftists who use AI have convinced themselves that *liking* AI is the correct leftist progressive position, and that hating it is Magat Trumper behavior, and then they turn around and get dogpiled and nazibar'd by their own team @7666 @p @lanodan @sun @lumi
(DIR) Post #B7dZ0VIyYzathnYQwi by r000t@ligma.pro
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@phntSuddenly stop talking about it and conveniently never correct anybody who brings it up as an example in the future @7666 @p @lanodan @sun @lumi
(DIR) Post #B7dZ16KKutfQWjTXhg by 7666@comp.lain.la
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@p @phnt @lanodan @sun @lumi somebody did this without checking#include <linux/openat2.h>
(DIR) Post #B7dZ5282T4oKfFbAPY by p@fsebugoutzone.org
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@7666 @lanodan @lumi @phnt @sun Seems like rsync should stick to userspace headers instead of trying to bother the kernel directly.
(DIR) Post #B7dZ5VyrTlINFTXGGu by lolitechengineer@loli.church
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@r000t@ligma.pro @phnt@fluffytail.org @7666@comp.lain.la @p@fsebugoutzone.org @lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me @sun@shitposter.world @lumi@snug.moe I personally like to go by the much simpler philosophy of:"If it's doing something good, it's good""If it's doing something bad, it's bad"No reason to overthink it, nor does it have to be a permanent title nor an absolute in all applications.
(DIR) Post #B7dZ7emjiPcf8NsxKy by r000t@ligma.pro
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@lolitechengineerHave you considered inverting that entirely? @lanodan @phnt @7666 @lumi @sun @p
(DIR) Post #B7daKHIaRpmw0mMiES by lolitechengineer@loli.church
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@r000t@ligma.pro @lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me @phnt@fluffytail.org @7666@comp.lain.la @lumi@snug.moe @sun@shitposter.world @p@fsebugoutzone.org but if I inverted that, it would create conclusions that violate objective truth.For example "cute anime girls are good" is objectively true and fits with my current worldview, but inverting it to viewing them as bad is objectively untrue.
(DIR) Post #B7daqd0BI8zmabBL2u by p@fsebugoutzone.org
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@lolitechengineer @r000t @lanodan @phnt @7666 @lumi @sunneuralink.png
(DIR) Post #B7dbAJlsV63Ejoselk by SilverDeth@fsebugoutzone.org
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@p @7666 @lanodan @lumi @phnt @sun At some point, you start to wonder if this is intentional sabotage by bad-faith actors.
(DIR) Post #B7dbDTnPgXjshL6eNE by p@fsebugoutzone.org
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@SilverDeth @7666 @lanodan @lumi @phnt @sun I'm actually kinda past wondering, starting around the time Congress called it irresponsible to release uncensored models.
(DIR) Post #B7dcL8ZaZjxH9Ar5xA by VaxxSabbath@detroitriotcity.com
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@SilverDeth @7666 @phnt @p @lanodan @sun @lumi it’s mostly structural, embedded in the design of the LLM itself (I will not elaborate)but yeah, the interesting thing is that AI is going to lead to a circulation of elites; before, if you squinted hard, the relationship between managers/executives was that of user+AI - the manager/executive came up with “the vision”, entered it into their console (line managers), who then orchestrated the tasks of subagents to make sure it got done and returned the result, which was then refined by further visionthere are only so many seats for those managerial/executive positions, however, and those seats have increasingly been reserved for the most retarded and self-serving idiots known to Mankind, which is the genesis of basically all of our current problemsAI threatens to hand one of those seats to anybody who can afford a subscription to a sufficiently powerful model and has the talent to guide it to make the right things and clean up the resulting output, which is one of the reasons we’re seeing those subscriptions tick up in price; the retard-oligarch egregore is dimly aware of the threat posed by structural barriers falling and creating the possibility of actual meritocratic competition for their wealth and social status (“haha, jackass, you got your executive role by being a jewish nepobaby, I got mine by having a genius idea and having AI implement it for me, we are not the same”)ultimately, they are going to attempt to gate AI (you see this now with model lockdowns and compute scarcity) - they do NOT want this capability “out there in the world”, because the thing it is most dangerous to is their own positions; they are demonstrably useless and are acutely aware of that fact, and they know for a certainty that if they are ever forced into a competition connected to real outcomes they are going to lose and very badlywhether they succeed in locking it up, however, remains to be seen
(DIR) Post #B7dcL8o7hha5sFehbk by p@fsebugoutzone.org
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@VaxxSabbath @SilverDeth @7666 @lanodan @lumi @phnt @sun > which is one of the reasons we’re seeing those subscriptions tick up in price; the retard-oligarch egregore is dimly aware of the threat posed by structural barriers fallingNo, this is not social engineering, this is normal VC mechanics. They try to spend each other into the ground in order to corner the market. It has gotten prohibitively expensive to subsidize so now they're solidifying positions. OpenAI is racing to get an IPO ahead of their MSFT bills coming due so that they can avoid an acquisition, because they've hit the ceiling on market share.
(DIR) Post #B7e6jE40oHWzkcUJaC by 7666@comp.lain.la
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@p @VaxxSabbath @phnt @SilverDeth @lanodan @sun @lumi >charge so much for compute that the bill would equal the value of the company so you just acquire them and write off the charges which are essentially bullshit anyway
(DIR) Post #B7e6pidM42fCIe7DU0 by p@fsebugoutzone.org
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@7666 @SilverDeth @VaxxSabbath @lanodan @lumi @phnt @sun $250b minimum buy over six years. Probably headroom was in the front and the first bill's likely due 2027Q1, given that they're targeting a 2026Q4 IPO.
(DIR) Post #B85Us8wNdUoItesuVk by m0xEE@breloma.m0xee.net
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@7666 @phnt @p @lanodan @sun @lumi Seems like they've got it fixed eventually still — according to the linked issue.But I agree, things like this just slipping in, and some people justifying it post-factum based on completely unrelated things ("OMG, you are using no longer supported kernel — just get new hardware, lel") is utter insanity :marseysigh: