Post B6fxLpJrmY92ah1q08 by weirdtreething@donotsta.re
(DIR) More posts by weirdtreething@donotsta.re
(DIR) Post #B6fr2D1FMGV2Zra84O by ariadne@social.treehouse.systems
2 likes, 4 repeats
to be absolutely clear: alpine is *not* switching to systemd or implementing a 'systemd compatibility layer'.https://www.linuxjournal.com/content/alpine-linux-experiments-systemd-compatibility-while-keeping-its-lightweight-identity is literally AI slop
(DIR) Post #B6frI5VP3rIVuLG6gi by hexaheximal@mstdn.social
0 likes, 0 repeats
@ariadne linuxjournal is slop too now? :(
(DIR) Post #B6frKzY7f8QSItuouu by ariadne@social.treehouse.systems
3 likes, 0 repeats
you can tell this is AI slop, because there is not a single link to anything from that article to an original source confirming anything asserted in that article.*always* check publications for citations back to original sources.
(DIR) Post #B6fraaVkWQ6NHZF4yG by ariadne@social.treehouse.systems
2 likes, 0 repeats
what alpine *has* done is ship the systemd unit files included with upstream packages in aports. and this is not new, we have been doing this for a while now.alpine *also* ships some systemd components as isolated components, such as systemd-boot. we may also use systemd's udev in the future as well.but these are, and in the case of udev, would be properly integrated into alpine, not the other way around.
(DIR) Post #B6frdxeqv2ZFwK6ng0 by ariadne@social.treehouse.systems
2 likes, 0 repeats
why does alpine ship the systemd unit files? so that downstream derivatives using systemd can use them.simple as that.
(DIR) Post #B6frhCo13YKPmwwSMi by bremner@mathstodon.xyz
0 likes, 2 repeats
@ariadne I guess linuxjournal.com is all slop all the time now. A few days ago there was a similar [1] sloppy clickbait article about Debian.Dunno who "George Whittaker" is, but if they are real person they should be ashamed of impersonating a journalist.[1]: https://www.linuxjournal.com/content/debian-experiments-ai-assisted-bug-triage-open-source-projects-face-growing-report-overload
(DIR) Post #B6frnopcadE9SeqWn2 by neal@social.gompa.me
1 likes, 0 repeats
@ariadne Why are people freaking out about this? It doesn't matter. The sloppy article aside, nothing about this is new as far as I knew...
(DIR) Post #B6frvJqlf7RHgrxVdQ by whitequark@social.treehouse.systems
0 likes, 0 repeats
@ariadne you can use systemd-udevd separately?
(DIR) Post #B6frzP9zrS9HJltwES by ariadne@social.treehouse.systems
0 likes, 0 repeats
@whitequark yes
(DIR) Post #B6fs2k6yQBj5AL4wl6 by ariadne@social.treehouse.systems
0 likes, 0 repeats
@neal because the article is disinformation
(DIR) Post #B6fsW3thw7L2ver1U0 by ariadne@social.treehouse.systems
2 likes, 0 repeats
@bremner debian is using AI huh? yeah, i'm sure debbugs is really super friendly to AI tooling, right?
(DIR) Post #B6fsZBIAtqaSjQmmum by neal@social.gompa.me
0 likes, 0 repeats
@ariadne Sigh...
(DIR) Post #B6fscxrMmbmAEL3CFs by ariadne@social.treehouse.systems
2 likes, 0 repeats
@neal like linuxjournal.com right now, last two articles are totally AI slop disinformationone about alpine and one about debiani'm sure "george" will do fedora in time
(DIR) Post #B6fshF16w21qbIeDjc by neal@social.gompa.me
0 likes, 0 repeats
@ariadne Yeah, it's probably going to happen with something particularly dumb too. I can already see it coming...
(DIR) Post #B6fsxIlGmTAAqatdK4 by bremner@mathstodon.xyz
0 likes, 0 repeats
@ariadne I dunno, all I get out of our admin team is anatomically unlikely suggestions for scraper operators.
(DIR) Post #B6fta3ULV0RilySY40 by ariadne@social.treehouse.systems
1 likes, 0 repeats
@sakurina @bremner honestly i wonder if the site has been compromised because it is pretty wild to publish that Debian is using AI to filter bugs and Alpine is adopting a 'systemd compatibility layer'
(DIR) Post #B6fuceDpzjwTEYXPrk by alwayscurious@infosec.exchange
0 likes, 0 repeats
@ariadne Is it safe to assume that shims for systemd APIs needed by things like GNOME aren’t a “systemd compatibility layer” for this purpose?
(DIR) Post #B6fv2jzx8sDsg2UArI by ariadne@social.treehouse.systems
0 likes, 0 repeats
@alwayscurious i do not know *what* the article means by 'systemd compatibility layer', but it describes libsystemd coming to alpine which has not happened
(DIR) Post #B6fwePsAW62nDWNDiy by ariadne@social.treehouse.systems
1 likes, 0 repeats
also, it is funny that the article talks about proprietary software not working on alpinein general, this is not a concern in the alpine community, and we do support flatpak
(DIR) Post #B6fxLpJrmY92ah1q08 by weirdtreething@donotsta.re
0 likes, 0 repeats
@ariadne it's annoying to see stuff like this which suggests you can't use alpine on a desktop system
(DIR) Post #B6fxLpcIg0tFVreYjY by Brett_E_Carlock@mastodon.online
1 likes, 0 repeats
@weirdtreethingYeah, it is really unfortunate as Alpine is what finally convinced me Linux was viable as a personal computing OS after two decades of distrohopping, multibooting, and virtualizing Linux. @ariadne
(DIR) Post #B6fxLpmE56pW0eIUCm by ariadne@social.treehouse.systems
1 likes, 0 repeats
@Brett_E_Carlock @weirdtreething indeed, maybe some of us have different priorities than the typical GNU/Linux user/developer
(DIR) Post #B6fzpcNQfNWb2v1oqO by craftyguy@freeradical.zone
1 likes, 0 repeats
@ariadne wow, that was painful to read. Literally.
(DIR) Post #B6g01mvBHwXLDwcQ8O by Aissen@social.treehouse.systems
1 likes, 0 repeats
@ariadne 12 bullet lists in an article ? I love them as much as the next person, but even I know not to abuse them. No serious editor would have let this pass, seriously this is slop without even as much as a review pass.
(DIR) Post #B6g0xX1KZ6d4hj1skS by msh@coales.co
1 likes, 0 repeats
@ariadne TBH its hard to tell the difference between the slop excreted by Lunduke and that from an LLM these days they seem to have been converging over the years
(DIR) Post #B6g8JMxHMsArXMUiBM by donelias@mastodon.cr
0 likes, 0 repeats
@ariadneWhat a shame to have one's name in a masthead of a slop publication machine https://www.linuxjournal.com/content/masthead
(DIR) Post #B6gFTlPxyE2Nyvof4a by lkundrak@metalhead.club
0 likes, 0 repeats
@ariadne "this looks like a normal article to me"-- high school bullies who couldn't write an essay and never figured out why they got an E
(DIR) Post #B6gOxgC8qwWe3egogy by zyx@social.treehouse.systems
0 likes, 0 repeats
@whitequark @ariadne yep Gentoo has been packaging systemd-{tmpfiles,udevd,boot} separately on OpenRC systems for a long while.
(DIR) Post #B6gOxgMmDP24adfJGi by whitequark@social.treehouse.systems
0 likes, 0 repeats
@zyx @ariadne I had assumed the eudev fork needed to happen bc this wasn't possible
(DIR) Post #B6gOxgWhcUyL5QJEjw by ariadne@social.treehouse.systems
0 likes, 0 repeats
@zyx @whitequark at one point in time it was necessary, but it's a lot easier now with meson.
(DIR) Post #B6gQT79ykNtWcVEO5g by ariadne@social.treehouse.systems
1 likes, 0 repeats
@dysfun we can easily build specific subcomponents of systemd with meson while still getting the internal dependencies right. with autotools it was a nightmare.
(DIR) Post #B6gVWlVHhrPUNokz56 by arcaneoverflow@techhub.social
0 likes, 0 repeats
@ariadne I'm glad to hear it :-) I was looking for a tidier and more focussed disti some time ago, and looking more closely I should probably have chosen Alpine :-)
(DIR) Post #B6gqfEI6eobR1ITDEG by justsoup@mstdn.social
0 likes, 0 repeats
@ariadne Shocking title plus AI slop is a recipe for clicks nowadays. Its just tabloids for the internet.
(DIR) Post #B6h1z69XiuCN4F8pPs by ariadne@social.treehouse.systems
0 likes, 0 repeats
@moses_izumi @hikari I see "George" has done it again!
(DIR) Post #B6hCJiJQYXqUkZEY40 by aelspire@aelspire.info
0 likes, 0 repeats
@ariadne Woho! Thanks for considering using udev in Alpine! It was the thing which forced me to return to Arch, while I would prefer to use Alpine. I've tried to use mdev + libudev-zero but it had a lot of quirks, so I switched to eudev but it had problems with mounting encrypted USB drives and some other quirks, so I tried to just use mount, but while on (some?) BSDs you can allow mount without root when user have permissions for both a device and a mount point, Linux does not.Almost everything depends on libudev…
(DIR) Post #B6hCJiXFj8u9RRhac4 by ariadne@social.treehouse.systems
0 likes, 0 repeats
@aelspire Alpine already uses a udev implementation, eudev which is basically compatible with libudev.
(DIR) Post #B6hnRa7GbrT5x1A13Y by eschwartz@fosstodon.org
0 likes, 0 repeats
@whitequark @zyx @ariadneeudev exists, at least today, primarily because there's a vocal subset of people who get extremely angry if a package name or file on disk includes the word "systemd" in it, and will not consent to running a udev implementation if any internal filename happens to be /usr/lib/systemdThese people literally configure their package manager to silently delete any files from ANY package matching the glob `*systemd*`. Prank tip: write a program including "systemdetails.py".
(DIR) Post #B6hnRaLnjp5ug5xci8 by eschwartz@fosstodon.org
0 likes, 0 repeats
@whitequark @zyx @ariadneAlso relevant, Gentoo dropped eudev a year and a half ago on the grounds that it serves no purpose given systemd-utils can install standalone udev, and eudev was unmaintained and broken and did not in fact provide the library APIs which software compiled against, due to its being unmaintained:https://public-inbox.gentoo.org/gentoo-dev/7802203.lOV4Wx5bFT@kona/Nonetheless, Gentoo still proudly supports non-systemd installs. :)
(DIR) Post #B6hnRabkmVr3TZQMZk by whitequark@social.treehouse.systems
0 likes, 0 repeats
@eschwartz @zyx @ariadne oh man maybe i should switch back to gentoo
(DIR) Post #B6hnRanS51DE3qthoG by ariadne@social.treehouse.systems
0 likes, 0 repeats
@eschwartz @zyx @whitequark its time to INSTALL GENTOO
(DIR) Post #B6hnd2rE5g6KHA7kGW by steve@discuss.systems
0 likes, 0 repeats
@ariadne @eschwartz @zyx @whitequark —omg-optimized
(DIR) Post #B6hnzCQ7DWp0Iy0Ulc by whitequark@social.treehouse.systems
0 likes, 0 repeats
@ariadne @eschwartz @zyx like it's not even about systemd, i'm using systemd right now, it's about people generally seeming to make more sensible decisions than my experience with debian as a maintainer which has left me very sour
(DIR) Post #B6honapIkXC6TjoikC by ariadne@social.treehouse.systems
0 likes, 0 repeats
@eschwartz @zyx @whitequark I mean I don't really have an opinion on systemd. the reason I use and work on Alpine is because it is an integrated OS. systemd offers some of the same benefits for the GNU/Linux crowd and that seems like a positive for GNU/Linux...
(DIR) Post #B6hpDarrDd3q8TPWWu by whitequark@social.treehouse.systems
0 likes, 0 repeats
@ariadne @eschwartz @zyx i think a lot of the concepts are sound, but a significant part of how it was implemented historically shows a lack of care that i wouldn't really consider acceptable in my work but switching away from it would break KDE which i like enough that it's a nonstarter
(DIR) Post #B6hpwabL3XcILB8j8C by eschwartz@fosstodon.org
0 likes, 0 repeats
@whitequark @ariadne @zyxI'm not really sure what you mean by that... Switching away from systemd would break KDE? Shouldn't be -- KDE Plasma is packaged by alpine (no systemd option) and supported just fine on Gentoo's openrc profiles.
(DIR) Post #B6hpwalcRJq8r3ww9g by ariadne@social.treehouse.systems
1 likes, 0 repeats
@whitequark @zyx @eschwartz yes can confirm I use plasma as my daily driver on alpine.
(DIR) Post #B6hq0wMo4eQD0IPvxw by whitequark@social.treehouse.systems
0 likes, 0 repeats
@ariadne @zyx @eschwartz does NM work?
(DIR) Post #B6hrww4zOst4rXIl7o by noisytoot@berkeley.edu.pl
0 likes, 0 repeats
@ariadne @whitequark @zyx @eschwartz do you run edge or stable? (I run edge on my laptop with KDE Plasma and occasionally stuff breaks)
(DIR) Post #B6hrwwGKihxfQiboo4 by ariadne@social.treehouse.systems
0 likes, 0 repeats
@noisytoot @eschwartz @whitequark @zyx edge, but i am patient
(DIR) Post #B6i0v3smJiX44Uls7E by eschwartz@fosstodon.org
0 likes, 0 repeats
@whitequark @ariadne @zyxOn the distro maintainer thing... I didn't realize that you were a Debian maintainer but I guess I see it now on qa.debian.org -- luckily you've only been tortured with a single package?I've now been a maintainer for two distros, I'm a maintainer upstream for Meson, I have an interest in build systems and package managers (and have written lots of code for both, not just packaged). And I really just think Debian is uniquely bad and cannot find any compliments for it.
(DIR) Post #B6i0v45BZaSOgyZmSG by ariadne@social.treehouse.systems
0 likes, 0 repeats
@eschwartz @whitequark @zyx if i never have to read another debian/rules file as long as i live, that will be very alright with me
(DIR) Post #B6i0v4FSxMgFCrNzTk by eschwartz@fosstodon.org
0 likes, 0 repeats
@whitequark @ariadne @zyxDebian is designed to be about politics, and even its packaging recipe format is about politics because they have multiple competing implementations for "build a package", some of which are bad for Quality Assurance reasons, and they can't actually stop anyone from using either those, or one they NIH'ed for personal use. Every decision they make isn't really made because the decision is good, but because it doesn't offend someone's incompatible workflow.
(DIR) Post #B6i0v4dvUQFKQipWbY by eschwartz@fosstodon.org
0 likes, 0 repeats
@whitequark @ariadne @zyxThere is no *process* for making good decisions that others cannot simply ignore, save appealing to a political board (the technical committee) whose job it is to find compromises moreso than actually setting a direction, AFAICT.How can you make good decisions when by policy everyone has a voice with no requirement for passing something like say, the Gentoo developer quiz, every maintainer is the emperor of a personal fief, and conflict takes years to *soothe*?
(DIR) Post #B6iCUlTVKgFStzB0am by whitequark@social.treehouse.systems
0 likes, 0 repeats
@eschwartz @ariadne @zyx nonono, I'm not a Debian maintainer. I'm a maintainer of software that is included in Debian and in the past (not currently) this was a pretty miserable experience
(DIR) Post #B6iCUlgcXujxYfJU2K by eschwartz@fosstodon.org
0 likes, 0 repeats
@whitequark @ariadne @zyxOh sorry, it looks like Debian thinks you are a comaintainer of solvespace but looking at salsa version history, the current active uploader produced the first git import in 2016 with you listed as an uploader, and just kind of rolled with it ever since?We have officially found today's qualifying lmao.Also I apologize for impugning your honor hahahaha.
(DIR) Post #B6iCUlrFuNFO5eHyc4 by whitequark@social.treehouse.systems
0 likes, 0 repeats
@eschwartz @ariadne @zyx I had a debian/ directory upstream in solvespace that I put quite a bit of effort into and the Debian maintainer just rm -rf's it in the recipe and starts over. when questioned I was informed that this wasn't welcome. but also Debian loves unvendoring shit by policy that is vendored for very good reasons and without downsides to end users which is occasionally breaking stuff in opaque ways
(DIR) Post #B6iCUm6qyNiws1aQvQ by whitequark@social.treehouse.systems
0 likes, 0 repeats
@eschwartz @ariadne @zyx yosys-abc is built from the forked source because the upstream build regularly results in unusable bitstreams with no debug output suggesting it may be so. so obviously the debian maintainer would insist on using upstream abc for yearsi just hate this pattern of arrogance
(DIR) Post #B6iCUmKKAIV1XntBvE by eschwartz@fosstodon.org
0 likes, 0 repeats
@whitequark @ariadne @zyxI mean, I like unvendoring just as much as the next distro dev.But it is sooorta important that you only do that when the "vendored" library isn't a full blown fork with unique features which the project that is vendoring it, added specifically for their private use and has a critical dependency on.And also the project is a python application so you cannot tell this by getting a compiler error, it just crashes at runtime.Yes, this is a real life thing I reported.
(DIR) Post #B6iCUmYrIG7qGsgnZo by whitequark@social.treehouse.systems
0 likes, 0 repeats
@eschwartz @ariadne @zyx fwiw aside from this case I don't think dependencies that aren't exposed to untrusted inputs should be unvendored by default. you don't know whether this will cause issues so you should by default assume that it will (unless the vendoring is done explicitly to simplify the build or something like that). as a distro package maintainer you simply do not have the same expertise or resources as the team who originally made the decisionyou can also just ask, which is at the core of my contention.
(DIR) Post #B6iCUmlyVUcKvYpH1M by whitequark@social.treehouse.systems
0 likes, 0 repeats
@eschwartz @ariadne @zyx why is the default relationship with the distro package maintainer an essentially adversarial one, where people automatically assume that whatever patch they write is correct even though the motivation for the patch is policy? this is one way of how you end up with "don't use distro packages" in README
(DIR) Post #B6iCUmyNlMXfY2dBMO by ariadne@social.treehouse.systems
0 likes, 0 repeats
@eschwartz @zyx @whitequark generally alpine only patches to make things work or devendor appropriate librariesor in the case of some abusive software, disable the antifeatures (e.g. telemetry)
(DIR) Post #B6iCUqWWYsdQYnczUe by whitequark@social.treehouse.systems
0 likes, 0 repeats
@eschwartz @ariadne @zyx in theory end users are supposed to report problems to Debian first but in practice basically nobody knows about this and so I end up sometimes having to debug someone else's idea of a good patch (which isn't)this is not a desired relationship
(DIR) Post #B6iEas8reo0bE2Yvtw by lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me
0 likes, 0 repeats
@ariadne @eschwartz @zyx @whitequark Yeah, I'd very much single out Debian in terms of horrible behavior of package maintainers.Like not entirely sure for Alpine but for Gentoo I think it's almost a policy to send patches upstream, while Debian not only has possessive packagers but also seems to pretty rarely send patches upstream.
(DIR) Post #B6izjd6dcpdJ2oCOK8 by EF@bsd.cafe
0 likes, 0 repeats
@ariadne was going to ask if you could clarify but you have already. Alpine is really good. Hope it keeps going from strength to strength.
(DIR) Post #B6j0vpqQBpUjyszuKG by philfr@mamot.fr
0 likes, 0 repeats
@ariadne Didn't I read recently that flatpak could become dependent on systemd ?
(DIR) Post #B6jHDGdFRirxFbAbGi by ariadne@social.treehouse.systems
0 likes, 0 repeats
@philfr "systemd" can mean many different things. in this case, it means systemd-appd, which is API surface that can be used and/or reimplemented without adopting systemd as a whole.for example, we have GNOME running on alpine, which also depends on "systemd", but it is not a problem.
(DIR) Post #B6mWQQqGsVgRT3sPjM by ariadne@social.treehouse.systems
0 likes, 0 repeats
@doesnm ok