Post B6cUmsR6LMOoZGKRfc by domi@donotsta.re
(DIR) More posts by domi@donotsta.re
(DIR) Post #B6Z1iYvBTd9Ujy6twe by navi@social.vlhl.dev
6 likes, 3 repeats
flatpak "2" will hard depend on systemdi'm both not surprised and extremely pissedthis attitude is just the worse tooRE: https://hachyderm.io/@jorge/116619028047490652
(DIR) Post #B6Z1kldBC59YjnjxOy by equinox@chaos.social
1 likes, 0 repeats
@navi "The gamer kids and the rust kids will save Linux, and the ops people will help them succeed."idk what ops people he has in mind there but the ones I know shit on systemd with a passion, and none too few of them use Slackware or FreeBSD.
(DIR) Post #B6Z2FKrYlbdEhA2hPM by ska@social.treehouse.systems
2 likes, 0 repeats
@navi I for one welcome mask-off moments, this clarifies the playing field a lot.
(DIR) Post #B6b5pD8ndtePLjpBWy by navi@social.vlhl.dev
2 likes, 2 repeats
@jorge @flammableengineering @LAS @2something as the current openrc maintainer and developer, i guess i don't exist? nor does alpine, gentoo, guix, slackware, void, debian (yes debian supports non-systemd installs), and others?
(DIR) Post #B6b9ZLmo8D7zLVEM08 by phnt@fluffytail.org
2 likes, 1 repeats
@navi @flammableengineering @LAS @jorge @2something All are just a footnote in the grand scheme of things, rebels refusing to adapt.linux-ragebait-shirt-systemd-wayland-flatpak.jpg
(DIR) Post #B6b9ZM3p6wjsCHBwWW by A39IqhddUOQ2Phx7Zo.graf@poa.st
1 likes, 0 repeats
This is one of the worst things I've ever seen online
(DIR) Post #B6b9emYy0HIPqALYiO by ForbiddenDreamer@poa.st
0 likes, 0 repeats
Wearing this to poastcon 7
(DIR) Post #B6b9isJUZ7q8pj3mrI by A39IqhddUOQ2Phx7Zo.graf@poa.st
0 likes, 0 repeats
Wear it to the bar guaranteed to peel panties
(DIR) Post #B6b9tCeBosfmnFfLyS by yockeypuck@poa.st
0 likes, 0 repeats
I will bury you beneath Bill's cuck shed.
(DIR) Post #B6b9tCzoWTyDsJmcgC by A39IqhddUOQ2Phx7Zo.graf@poa.st
0 likes, 0 repeats
You need to see his house he literally doubled the size of it. One half of it is black lol
(DIR) Post #B6b9tU3z4EPIoArh2W by ForbiddenDreamer@poa.st
0 likes, 0 repeats
I'll tell his wife you said hello
(DIR) Post #B6b9xmETSMqoJjopJw by ForbiddenDreamer@poa.st
0 likes, 0 repeats
The only thing I want to peel is rubber on asphalt anymore ngl
(DIR) Post #B6bA0uI3xCzcB2zQqe by ForbiddenDreamer@poa.st
0 likes, 0 repeats
Ya he literally built an extension for the bbc
(DIR) Post #B6bA3AZyMaVLH8RiCW by A39IqhddUOQ2Phx7Zo.graf@poa.st
0 likes, 0 repeats
Peel my month old boxers off for some milf action
(DIR) Post #B6bA7vH2hBe7FqrG9Q by ForbiddenDreamer@poa.st
0 likes, 0 repeats
omw
(DIR) Post #B6bABcQWi6Ifxa3ZE8 by mint@ryona.agency
0 likes, 1 repeats
@phnt @flammableengineering @jorge @navi @2somethingeveryone loves systemd.mp4
(DIR) Post #B6bABcfPokD4hl1SQy by lina@eientei.org
0 likes, 0 repeats
@mint @phnt @jorge @navi i saw the logo in the first frame and thought it would be something like ronaldinho soccer 64 but with systemdcan we have an edit like that now
(DIR) Post #B6bANXjC0TKerTTPQ8 by yockeypuck@poa.st
0 likes, 0 repeats
Furiously insisting it's not a cuck shed, it's a cuck addition on Rumble.
(DIR) Post #B6bANY2KrIe1oqQhG4 by ForbiddenDreamer@poa.st
0 likes, 0 repeats
If it's a shed he's got all of ram ranch living in there
(DIR) Post #B6bARLCOWzK9A5wY40 by A39IqhddUOQ2Phx7Zo.graf@poa.st
0 likes, 0 repeats
Ya it's yuge he's got the entire cast of Arsenio Hall living there ong
(DIR) Post #B6bBGWZ81tqlBRz0WO by navi@social.vlhl.dev
2 likes, 0 repeats
@jorge @SRAZKVT @ZanaGB @flammableengineering @LAS @2something for the record, the burden of proof falls under the person making the claim -- you're the one with the initial claim that 95% of desktop users run systemd (and thus there's no reason to care for anything else, which is a flawed reasoning from the start)where's the metrics showing that 95% of desktop linux run systemd?(metrics impossible to accurately obtain as linux does not ship a global data collection process, only a subset of users would ever consider opting into one, and the users that avoid systemd are the same users that would avoid such data collection)
(DIR) Post #B6bCw2EpHD4bF1qPuy by novenary@akko.wtf
0 likes, 0 repeats
@navi guh, as if anyone needed more reasons to hate flatpak
(DIR) Post #B6bCw2cDsDmwPan6O0 by mischievoustomato@tsundere.love
0 likes, 0 repeats
@novenary @navi nixos deprecates flatpak
(DIR) Post #B6bCwvOeCObqJPrXMW by mischievoustomato@tsundere.love
0 likes, 0 repeats
@navi based, non-systemd tards btfo
(DIR) Post #B6bCzaJN37Qdmpf9Xs by mischievoustomato@tsundere.love
0 likes, 0 repeats
@phnt @navi @2something i need to get this unironically
(DIR) Post #B6bFSooiOfEd55OKKe by pettanko@tsundere.love
0 likes, 0 repeats
@mischievoustomato @navi I’m so glad I’m not in the FOSS scene what an aggravating mess
(DIR) Post #B6bFSp3xTzQbqMWV5k by mischievoustomato@tsundere.love
0 likes, 0 repeats
@pettanko @navi people act like they're owed free labor, so its good to see devs shit on them
(DIR) Post #B6bG1VrEsYLAPo7DOq by phnt@fluffytail.org
1 likes, 0 repeats
@mischievoustomato @navi @pettanko Except this dude maintains literally nothing of importance except his toy distro
(DIR) Post #B6bG1W4076Y53O5PI8 by mischievoustomato@tsundere.love
0 likes, 0 repeats
@phnt @navi @pettanko bazzite is big and the efforts are important for the nomal-distros
(DIR) Post #B6bG8ZkIoz2mV8ErOi by pettanko@tsundere.love
1 likes, 0 repeats
@mischievoustomato @navi is that’s what’s going on? Everything that Jorge guy says is so smugly dismissive it’s like he’s intentionally trying to piss people off.
(DIR) Post #B6bG8a4raXUTWtrHRg by mischievoustomato@tsundere.love
0 likes, 0 repeats
@pettanko @navi i mean, people are asking "please accommodate our needs for free" when the upstream flatpak devs focus on systemd stuff because well duh, normal people use systemd distros already.
(DIR) Post #B6bHn4WXuN4NUlg6ka by phnt@fluffytail.org
0 likes, 0 repeats
@mischievoustomato @navi @pettanko This guy does not have a single commit in flatpak. He's just pushing an agenda.
(DIR) Post #B6bHn4vMQ6v2jjHvQe by mischievoustomato@tsundere.love
0 likes, 0 repeats
@phnt @navi @pettanko regardless, a good agenda, and it doesnt change the flatpak changes *will* happen
(DIR) Post #B6bfmnUhcdOXZvDZMO by hazel@starlightnet.work
1 likes, 0 repeats
@jorge what the hell does that mean 😭😭😭 im just trying to know why a decision was taken, do you have a github issue link, a group chat, anything??? we cant be for real right now
(DIR) Post #B6bmXpZyHsTFNdUcV6 by bronze@pl.kitsunemimi.club
1 likes, 0 repeats
@mischievoustomato @phnt @navi @pettanko im reading through their thread and this jorge dude's ragebait, whether intentional or unintentional, is hilarious
(DIR) Post #B6bmrpFdDUzG9dVsx6 by bronze@pl.kitsunemimi.club
1 likes, 0 repeats
@mischievoustomato @navi @pettanko @phntHOLY FUCK LMAO :cat_laugh:
(DIR) Post #B6bmrpSOS3CAnDU4qO by mischievoustomato@tsundere.love
1 likes, 0 repeats
@bronze @phnt @navi @pettanko i mean yeah, even if i was on the opposing side, if the upstream devs want x, and dont care about y... they don't have a reason to accomodateyou FOR FREE.
(DIR) Post #B6boDI25VE31SDydoO by bronze@pl.kitsunemimi.club
1 likes, 0 repeats
@phnt @jorge @navi >me when i see someone wearing this
(DIR) Post #B6boECLs6r9C7nfEQK by bronze@pl.kitsunemimi.club
1 likes, 0 repeats
@mischievoustomato @phnt @navi @pettanko until you do get a developer who DOES want to cater to y, doesnt want to maintain a fork and submits a PR that makes it work for both x and y seamlessly only to get rejected by the devsanyways this shit is hilarious and i will continue to use flatpak until it becomes my problem (if ever)
(DIR) Post #B6buvr3VFW8CXgGxCi by ska@social.treehouse.systems
1 likes, 1 repeats
@jorge @usernameswift @flammableengineering @LAS @2something The free software a lot of us use and contribute to is based on collaboration, communication and good will. It aims to make software available to the largest possible number of people. It implies talking to users and listening to them. (I know, I know, unconceivable. And yet.)The libertarian attitude "it's free software do what you want" is not collaborative in the slightest. It basically means "I can afford to be an asshole because I have the largest market share so who cares what minority users think". Which, indeed, some projects can afford, but which goes directly against the spirit of free software and does not paint these projects in a good light, philosophy-wise.A basic engineering principle is "Do not add dependencies you do not need". I don't think I need to explain why this principle exists. There is no clear reason why Flatpak, which is a packaging system that is supposedly independent from the host it is run on should depend on a given init system. Unless I am mistaken, the whole point of Flatpak is to deploy an application the same way across a variety of Linux desktop systems; it seems like tying it to a specific init system goes against its own mission statement, in addition to going against a basic engineering principle. The reason for this choice is unclear, and it does not appear good, technology-wise.Also, flatpak.org is broken.So, I guess my question is: if that is how you treat users, why should they be interested in Flatpak? Why should they adopt it over another solution?
(DIR) Post #B6cUfhHTQ7HpwXOyNk by domi@donotsta.re
1 likes, 0 repeats
@navi reading this thread from the start, “I don’t think people realized that flatpak next basically fixes everything” already set my expectations VERY lowthe amount of projects which promised to “fix everything” and actually delivered up to my standards remains at a flat, solid, ZERO
(DIR) Post #B6cUmsR6LMOoZGKRfc by domi@donotsta.re
0 likes, 0 repeats
@navi flatpak 2 will fix it. try flatpak 2. flatpak next has it for you
(DIR) Post #B6dAGwxUBrOnOxw1r6 by bb010g@pony.social
0 likes, 0 repeats
@navi If it makes you feel any better, as far as @novenary & I could tell, Jorge Castro is neither a Flatpak v1 nor a Flatpak developer. He is a Universal Blue developer, though, which I would say explains the extremely callous attitude and lack of care for use cases outside of his vision. This aspect of Universal Blue's project leadership really is the worst part of Universal Blue, in my opinion. (I respect their work with Bazzite & friends, and am writing this post from an Aurora box, but I still wish to never see other projects replicate Universal Blue's hardheartedness. Your project & community would be better without it.)I would very much expect the Flatpak developers who actually gave the Flatpak-Next talk at Linux App Summit, @AdrianVovk & @swick, to be much more reasonable about accepting support for distributions that don't use systemd into Flatpak-Next. (As an example, Sebastian Wick's SO_PEERPIDFD Gets More Useful blog post (2025-10-10) explicitly discusses how a new Linux kernel feature not being systemd-specific is a good thing, and discusses a bit how support might work on kernels other than Linux. Flatpak Happenings (2025-11-04) states a plan to “Make varlink a feasible alternative to D-Bus”.) AFAICT, Flatpak-Next's use of systemd is the normal, pragmatic kind, where their interest in systemd is in how it offers a standard interface across a large number of Linux desktop distributions, and is not a belief that systemd should be the only option for a Linux desktop distribution.I'd appreciate clarification from @AdrianVovk and/or @swick about Flatpak-Next's goals, expectations, and maintenance desires actually are here.
(DIR) Post #B6dAGxFD7xZqHwEBU0 by AdrianVovk@fosstodon.org
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@bb010g @navi @novenary @swick I expect that we'll have a dependency on systemd through systemd-appd at least. I also wouldn't be surprised if certain parts of the sandbox would have to be turned off if systemd services are unavailable. Of course it's hard to speculate about code that doesn't exist. I would say that you can probably expect similar things to what happened with GNOME's increased systemd dependency.
(DIR) Post #B6dAGxRcNpVAuQ25p2 by bb010g@pony.social
0 likes, 0 repeats
@AdrianVovk @navi @novenary @swick Alright; sounds reasonable. Would you expect external contributions to Flatpak-Next that enhance support without systemd-appd to be accepted? (Alternatively, might the subset of systemd-appd's API that Flatpak depends on be small and stable enough for reimplementation outside of systemd? personal hope would be a (collection of?) little Varlink interface(s) that systemd-less desktops could target.)(Also, thank you for such a prompt reply. :heartcbyre:)
(DIR) Post #B6dAGxcxheZlTbL9VI by AdrianVovk@fosstodon.org
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@bb010g @navi @novenary @swick I would expect the need for polyfills of Varlink services, rather than code added upstream. Frankly, the ratio of support burden to people benefitting for non-systemd environments is simply too high for us to deal with upstream. Flatpak Next is an exercise in ultimately reducing the amount of code we have, and that means making stronger use of the dependencies we have available to usAgain all very preliminary thoughts about a codebase that doesn't yet exist
(DIR) Post #B6dAGxtygOBeKNIk1g by rose@snac.pinkro.se
1 likes, 0 repeats
@AdrianVovk@fosstodon.org @bb010g@pony.social @navi@social.vlhl.dev @novenary@akko.wtf @swick@hachyderm.io as a maintainer of multiple systemd polyfills, I really don't think this is a good way to go forwardwe already have UAPI, some parts like the bootloader or uki spec are part of it, why not draft a new spec together that systemd can implement as appd and non-systemd systems can implement some other way?
(DIR) Post #B6dBpkzol3Y0OHBdmC by ska@social.treehouse.systems
1 likes, 0 repeats
@jorge @usernameswift @flammableengineering @LAS @2something If there's something you want in software and no one works on it it's not going to happen.Oh, believe me, I know. And my point is that it's important to have a welcoming and encouraging attitude so other people will contribute and enhance software for the good of everyone.But since you call non-systemd distributions (which are in a growing minority, which should probably at least make you curious why) "edge cases", it shows that you're not interested at all in that user population. You sound contemptuous of them for some reason. You are broadcasting the vibes that even if someone does make the effort, you won't upstream it because you don't believe in it. You are saying both "contribute if you want it to happen" and "lol this isn't gonna happen". Which... feels like the latter is the more honest one.
(DIR) Post #B6dUwKCyePcSSxBgES by navi@social.vlhl.dev
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@AdrianVovk @bb010g @novenary @swick the major issue with writing polyfills is that we end up locked into systemd's architecture -- how much of a problem that is depends on the specific api, sometimes it's manageable, sometimes it's almost impossible (i say this as someone currently designing a session manager that will serve as backend for a login1 polyfill)in those cases, ideally, imo, would be for instead of a polyfill, have an alternative project that is init agnostic (e.g. how we have seatd, and soon this session manager i'm working on)
(DIR) Post #B6dUwKTHfmfBHWoheK by valpackett@social.treehouse.systems
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@navi @novenary @AdrianVovk @swick @bb010g maybe systemd should've spent some effort on calling all these interfaces (like login1) Official Standard Neutral Specifications™ but idk the outrage crowd would be outraged anyway i think
(DIR) Post #B6dUwKeczbjlqi7lKa by navi@social.vlhl.dev
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@valpackett @novenary @AdrianVovk @swick @bb010g the problem isn't what they're called, the problem is that they're build with systemd's architecture in mind?sure if they wanted to provide proper spec that *don't* assume systemd's internal architecture, e.g. in UAPI, that'd be *great*!but most of those are explicitly not that
(DIR) Post #B6dUwKouNNxcMavyM4 by lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me
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@navi @novenary @AdrianVovk @swick @bb010g @valpackett In fact Linux "Standard" Base didn't fare much better, only few bits and pieces got picked up, often with their own spin, and not even universally across different linux systems.
(DIR) Post #B6dcTUEt4p36oMqBQ8 by ori@hj.9fs.net
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And will you accept the contributions that work on support for distros that don't use systemd?
(DIR) Post #B6dhuhRAc8RpKmNhgW by valpackett@social.treehouse.systems
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@navi @novenary @AdrianVovk @swick @bb010g how much internal architecture do they really assume? i've almost implemented login1 myself and did not get that feeling at all
(DIR) Post #B6dhuhkJSxlCI9KzWS by navi@social.vlhl.dev
1 likes, 0 repeats
@valpackett @novenary @AdrianVovk @swick @bb010g it assumes a monolithic design where seat, power, session, and device management, at least, are all tightly coupled if not not implemented by the same daemon (login1 does the first 3, udev does the last)where udev has to be aware of logind for uaccess (device manager being aware of user sessions much? not via a rule or module, but hardcoded queries)where login1 interfaces have properties that touch as far as the bootloader / EFI and vttys and so onif you don't want to implement all that in a single system, good. luck. it's not modular, it was never meant to behttps://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/InterfacePortabilityAndStabilityChart/systemd themselves know that:logind > Reimplementable Independently: no
(DIR) Post #B6duMaWX6vWtRzxElE by valpackett@social.treehouse.systems
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@lanodan @novenary @AdrianVovk @swick @bb010g @navi the thing is that all this standardization and in general putting in work to be compatible with all the variety of internal details that nerds vehemently disagree about online takes away so much precious time away from working on the actually important goal: shipping a real alternative platform to the massive userbase of normal people who have no idea what an init or a logind is
(DIR) Post #B6duMaiaO7Ae3NarY0 by TheOneDoc@tech.lgbt
1 likes, 0 repeats
@valpackett @lanodan @novenary @AdrianVovk @swick @bb010g @navi is this the new "but think about the children" totschlag argument?We don't do sane specs because the "dumb" users don't care.
(DIR) Post #B6eKwy6fVOI9pBrfMW by kimapr@ublog.kimapr.net
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@jorge @LAS @2something Because you seem to be involved in Flatpak development, and want to change Flatpak in a way that will negatively impact me. But I am pretty sure your reply is made in bad faith and thus will not engage any more. Peace.
(DIR) Post #B6eKwyP6Or2MkMUO5w by kimapr@ublog.kimapr.net
1 likes, 1 repeats
@jorge @2something @LAS I suggest you to look and compare the amount of engagement on my reply to yours that i originally replied to (for this you should use “view on remote instance” button next to my post as hachyderm does not show an accurate count for it). I believe they call this phenomenon “ratio” on the social media website twitter dot com.
(DIR) Post #B6eLV0Em5cV8HLsvwG by valpackett@social.treehouse.systems
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@navi @novenary @AdrianVovk @swick @bb010g seat, power, session, and device management are inherently coupled problems. a session is on a seat, holding control of power, uses devices. what would be the actual point of artificially decoupling those?
(DIR) Post #B6eLV0SxEtqMzKWG2a by navi@social.vlhl.dev
1 likes, 0 repeats
@valpackettwhy does the handling of the power button or auto suspend need to be aware of user sessions? why does who logged in where automatically imply device permissions?seats can be handled just fine without being aware of sessions (seatd exists), power can be handled just fine without being aware of sessions (acpid exists), sessions only really need to be a database of logins (utmp exists but sucks) and hooks for things like user services and xdg runtime dir (the direction that i'm going and so is turnstile)
(DIR) Post #B6fJmde7IMNC2SjM4O by valpackett@social.treehouse.systems
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@navi because if there are any apps in the desktop session doing something that shouldn't be interrupted or have unsaved changes, the power button should present a dialog showing which app has which reason to not power off right now. apps should be able to prepare for sleep by saving data. the system should not autosuspend while packages are being updated. and so on.if you don't understand why inhibitor locks are important, your system is only usable by unix nerds, and a subset of them at that.
(DIR) Post #B6fJmdsIRdiQkRMgAi by navi@social.vlhl.dev
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@valpackett "inhibitor locks" we have wakelocks, we can have applications talk to power manager if they want power manager features, i understand why they're important, i do not think that to have that work we need everything to be in a single monolithic structurethis is a power management feature and doesn't have to live with the session manager or seat manager or device manager, at all
(DIR) Post #B6fJme2DqjehFE0bdw by argv_minus_one@mastodon.sdf.org
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@navi Don't wakelocks exist only on Android?I thought wakelocks were an Android thing, and inhibitor locks are the desktop Linux equivalent.@valpackett
(DIR) Post #B6fJmeEz5HrbsnynXE by navi@social.vlhl.dev
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@argv_minus_one @valpackett wakelocks are an upstream linux kernel feature, though most distros build their kernels with CONFIG_WAKELOCK=n -- iirc postmarketOS are interested in making use of them + autosleep (for the same reason android does that)(logind) inhibitors are nothing more than asking logind to "pretty please don't suspend while i have this inhibitor fd open", any privileged enough process can bypass it and `echo "mem" > /sys/power/state` and suspend the machine regardless of held inhibitorsaka if everything on your system that deals with suspend isn't integrated with logind, then it might or might not workmeanwhile a power manager built around wakelock would mean the kernel itself won't suspend until there's no more locks -- which imo is the obviously better solution
(DIR) Post #B6k0ja4RCnSGk4fbsW by usernameswift@labyrinth.zone
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@jorge @flammableengineering @LAS @2something This is certainly an interesting thing to say as people actively move away from systemd-based distros due to the negative direction it has taken. You're welcome to develop software as you please, but don't be surprised when you experience hostility and the number of users drops - including me, who will no longer be able to use it after having had it be part of my setup for years.
(DIR) Post #B6k14Q3jceZnm2HI9o by mirq@tsogol.tsiran.org
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@navi “are you serious? Of course” wow the level of smug faggot in just 5 simple words
(DIR) Post #B6k1Kx0Iu1rwaDYWcC by Suiseiseki@freesoftwareextremist.com
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@phnt @LAS @jorge @navi systemd, wayland, libadwaitai & flatpack, I sing as I load each round into the magazine.I rack and fire off 4 bullets - one for each proprietary program.